-30 votes

Are you misled on the issues surrounding the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts?

For a while now I've been seeing a lot of anti Israel rhetoric here on DP. I wanted to take a minute to say that I think many of you are mislead on the issues surrounding the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts. I see people coming down on the side of the Palestinians and view Israel as the perpetrators of all aggression time and time again. I do not and here is why.

________________

Israel became a nation in about 1440 BC (at Mount Sinai), two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

In about 70 AD the Romans took over the whole land, flattened Jerusalem, burnt down the Temple and killed and exiled a large part of the Jewish population of the area.

In 139 AD, the descendants of those who remained, under the command of Bar Kokhba, again rebelled against Rome. The Roman army came in again and this time they killed many thousands of Jews, flattened Jerusalem again and built a new Roman city on the ruins, calling it Aelia Capitolina. They then expelled all the Jews, who had survived the slaughter.

The Roman Procurator in charge of the captured Jewish territories called for historians and asked them who were the worst enemies of the Jews in their history. The historians replied, "the Philistines";

Thus, the Procurator declared that the Land of Israel would from then forward be called "Palaestina" to dishonor the Jews and obliterate their history.

For nearly 2000 years the land of Israel was known as Palestine. In 1948, it became Israel once again.

The Arab nations initiated at least four of the Middle Eastern wars- in 1948, in 1967, in the War of Attrition and in 1973-and they lost. Israel defended herself each time and won.

The PLO’s charter still calls for the destruction of Israel.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. Thus it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

_____________________

“Since 1948 it is we who have demanded the return of the refugees while it is we who made them leave. We have rendered them dispossessed. We have accustomed them to begging. We have participated in lowering their moral and social level. Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson and throwing bombs at men, women and children.”
Khaled al-Azzem, former Syrian Prime Minister 1973.

_____________________

DO THE PALESTINIAN MOSLEMS REALLY WANT PEACE WITH ISRAEL?

"The governments of the world should know that Islam cannot be defeated. Islam will be victorious in all the countries of the world and Islam and the teachings of the Koran will prevail all over the world."
(Ayatollah Khomeini "The Blood of the Moon" page 72)

"We shall export our revolution to the whole world. Until the cry, ‘Allahu akbar’ resounds over the whole world, there will be struggle. There will be jihad!"
(Ayatollah Khomeini "The Blood of the Moon" page 72)

"Anyone who relinquishes a single inch of Jerusalem is neither an Arab nor a Muslim."
Yasser Arafat, Chairman of the P.L.O.(Voice of Palestine, Algiers, 2 September 1993)

"The Zionist entity exists on seized land. The Jews remain enemies because they expropriate lands, build settlements and pay high sums to buy properties. They are the greatest enemies of us Muslims."
"The Zionist entity" is a common euphemism used by those who do not recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel.
Ikrama Sabri, Palestinian Authority mufti for Jerusalem.
(The New York Times, 18 May 1997)

"I want to say that this is our Palestine, from Metulla [Israel's northernmost city] to Rafiah [Southern border] and to Aqaba [Israel's southernmost point], from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea; whether they want it or not."
Dr. Jareer Al-Kidwah, advisor to President Arafat, PA TV broadcast, November 29, 2000

"Allah’s messenger- may peace be upon him- has commanded: Fight the Jews and kill them. Pursue them until even a stone would say: Come here, Moslem, there is a Jew hiding himself under me. Kill him. Kill him quickly."
(Moslem Tradition)

"Our war against the Jews is an old struggle that began with Mohammed…It is our duty to fight the Jews for the sake of Allah and religion. It is our duty to end the war that Mohammed began.
(Al Ahram. Nov 26th 1955)

"You don’t understand…Islam can never negotiate or recognize Israel."
(Hamas leader in BBC interview 1994)

"Our position is clear: all of Palestine. Every inch of Palestine belongs to the Muslims."
Mahmoud Zahar, senior leader of Hamas -Quoted in the Jerusalem Post, November 14, 2003

"Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated. We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity."
Excerpt from the Hizballah Programme, 16 February 1985.

“The hatred which we indoctrinate into the minds of our children from their birth is sacred”
(Suleiman Al-Khash in Al-Thaura, the Ba’ath party newspaper, May 3, 1968).

___________________

MOSLEM REACTIONS TO THE ATTACKS ON AMERICA

"If you want to know the real perpetrator of every disaster or every act of terrorism, look for the Zionist Jews. They are behind all the violent and terror operations that have occurred everywhere in the world...It is the Jews, with their hidden filthy hands, who play their part with expertise in order to harm the Arabs and Muslims and to intensify hatred towards them...Actually, it is they who are behind the events of September 11..."
Dr. 'Atallah Abu Al-Subh, a columnist for the Hamas weekly Al-Risala (Gaza), November 1, 2001.

"What happened is, in my opinion, the product of Jewish, Israeli, and American Zionism, and the act of the great Jewish Zionist mastermind that controls the world's economy, media, and politics..."
Ahmad Al-Muslih,Al-Dustour (Jordan), September 13, 2001.

________________________

WHAT DO PALESTINIANS REALLY THINK OF ISRAEL ?

The following are quotes from ordinary Palestinians. No names, no pack drill.

"The hell of Israel is better than the paradise of Arafat. We know Israeli rule stinks, but sometimes we feel like Palestinian rule would be worse."

"If a secret poll was conducted, I am sure an overwhelming majority of Jerusalem Arabs would say they would prefer to stay in Israel."

"They tell me—we are not like Gaza or the West Bank. We hold Israeli IDs. We are used to a higher standard of living. Even if Israeli rule is not so good, it is still better than that of the PA."

"I prefer Israeli control."

"I can only tell you to pray that the Israelis don't leave your town," because "the Jews are more human" than Palestinians."

"Here you can say whatever you like and do whatever you want—so long as you don't touch the security of Israel. Over there, if you talk about Arafat, they can arrest you and beat you up."

"We no longer fear the Israelis or the Americans, regardless of their hostility, but we now fear our Arab ‘brothers.' “

_____________

“When Yasser Arafat and the PLO arrived in Gaza in 1994 there was a lot of hope that the Palestinians would enjoy a free media. However, one of the first thing the PLO did was to order an immediate crackdown on the Palestinian media. Many local journalists - including those working with the international media and those who had independent press offices were targeted. Some were arrested, beaten, their equipment confiscated and offices torched. Sadder still, the foreign media did not really cover the story.

Why was there a crackdown? Because those who came with Arafat from Tunis came with a different mentality. They did not live here. Most of them had never spoken to an Israeli Jew in their lives. As such, they came with what could be called an "Arab regime" mentality, like that of Arab dictators. They wanted to make sure that the Palestinian media was 100-percent under control. They secured that control by appointing editors, closing down newspapers and funding competing ones.

The PA, for example, ordered a crackdown on the pro-Jordanian An-Nahar newspaper in Jerusalem and closed it down. Another newspaper edited by the Khatib family, which had been operating with an Israeli license between 1967 and 1994, had its offices burnt down, and the publisher fled to London.

THREE YEARS ago I began reporting daily for The Jerusalem Post. The irony is that as an Arab Muslim I feel freer to write for this Jewish paper than I do for any Arab newspaper. I have no problem writing for any Arab newspaper if it will provide me with a free platform and not censor my writing. My Post editors do not interfere with my writing.
The fallen hope for Palestinian press freedom, Khaled Abu Toameh. January 3, 2006

___________________

"Honestly, the problems we face in our relations with some of our Arab brothers are much worse than those we face vis-á-vis Israel."
Yasser Arafat, 1985

http://www.peaceforourtime.org.uk/index.html




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Thank you. "Are you more

Thank you. "Are you more anti-state than pro-liberty?". For many, unfortunately, the answer is yes.

wow, what a bunch of crap.

wow, what a bunch of crap.

You Rant Too Much

Just Saying

skippy

Anti-Semitic Whining

has been especially high in the fall of 2011. People who are sympathetic to RP (like Glenn Beck and some other talk radio hosts) decided not to support us mostly because of this whining.

Blue Republicans, populists, immigrants from UK, Ukraine and muslim countries along with anti-Semites from leftist anti-War movement confuse "group rights" of Palestinians with their individual rights. Since there are no group rights, but rather group demands, the solution can be either via force or negotiation. Arabs did indeed failed to negotiate partition and failed to get the land by force all these years since 1948. International law allows land annexation from any attacker. And Israel did just that, like Russia annexed Japanese islands and Poland was given land that belonged to Germany. If New World Order were not against Israel, Israel would had still kept Suetz canal he held in 1953.

When an outsider sees that RP movement (presumably "INDIVIDUALIST" one) suddenly supports demands of a particular GROUP while ignoring demands of other groups (say, those of Kurds, Basques, Tibetians, Chechens, etc.), he knows something is really FISHY going on.

I AM concerned about those other people--

but we're not funding their oppressors--and they are not in the news all the time as being to blame for their own oppression, a big difference--

Yes, the Kurds and the Tibetans and the Basques have been abused and marginalized--

It was wrong for America to be involved in helping those people to be oppressed anywhere/everywhere--

but those countries are not being used as is Israel to incite war and hatred--

I don't think the NWO is against Israel; how can you prove that?

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

No--

I'm not misled, and I don't think Rabbi Weiss or the young people who are conscientious objectors in Israel or Noam Chomsky--(there are others too numerous to mention)

are misled.

Perhaps some of us are too open and zealous in our objections to what is happening in Gaza--

because we feel that we must, somehow, counteract the enormous American sleepiness (or ignorance) with regards to it.

It's blowback, but it's not just America who is responsible; it is Israel (and Britain) as well--or mostly.

No, America should give no foreign aid, not to any of those nations (or any nation)--

but it's blowback. Nobody says it's right to have revenge, but there are people who are in a vengeful state, because of the wrongs that have been perpetrated.

Miko Peled is another who should be heard--

http://mikopeled.com/

What is going on over there is wrong, and *we* should not be blind; we don't have to intervene, but we already have. America has already contributed to the suffering in Gaza and the self-righteous denial of Israeli leaders--

And it's a weary business convincing others that Israel is not "The Jews" (who exist in many places outside Israel and do not all have pro-Israel sentiments)--

and that "The Jews" are not confined, ideologically or geographically to one small 'nation' in the middle east--

It is one of the few nations in the world that was formed and then peopled (after pushing out and sometimes exterminating the existing people)--

in America, a nation happened, and the people who were here became Americans, some by default, some not at all--

and then others came--

Israel was an ideology before it was a geographical location--

As for the Palestinians being illegally begotten, they are also descended from Abraham, and many of them have as much of the blood of ancient Israel in them (often by default, not by ideology) as do those who came there as "Jews"--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Zionism and Anti-Semitism

We implore and beseech our Jewish brethren to realize that the Zionists are not the saviors of the Jewish People and guarantors of their safety, but rather the instigators and original cause of Jewish suffering in the Holy Land and worldwide. The idea that Zionism and the State of “Israel” is the protector of Jews is probably the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the Jewish People. Indeed, where else since 1945 have Jews been in such physical danger as in the Zionist state?!

Jews are enjoined by their religious laws to be loyal to the country of which they are citizens. Ever since the destruction of the holy Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of the Jewish People some two thousand years ago, we have been enjoined to be scrupulously loyal to the countries we reside in. One of the great biblical prophets, Jeremiah, in chapter 29 of his book proclaimed G-d's message to all the exiled; verse seven reads, "Seek out the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you and pray for it to the Almighty, for through its welfare will you have welfare." This has been a cornerstone of Jewish morality throughout our history to this very day.

Torah-true Jews wish to live in peace and harmony with their neighbors in every country among the community of nations, including in historic Palestine. They deplore acts and policies of violence carried out by those who, misusing the name of Israel our forefather, have substituted the ideal of chauvinist nationalism for the eternal values of the Torah, the eternal divinely bestowed inheritance of the Jewish people.

read more http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm

Utter rubbish

"Torah-true Jews wish to live in peace and harmony ".

In order to validate that claim we need to discuss what is a Jew.

Judaism is based on the Talmud. Nothing else.

We have had a Zionist problem for 150 years. We have had a Jewish problem for 7000.

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

The Latest Israeli Palestine Conflict in the Gaza Strip

I find the discussion of the genesis of ancient Israel a tortuous imbroglio; a red herring whose purpose is to inflame religious zealots who are unable to rise up from their biblical roots and face the modern day problems in the Middle East. The country of Israel was recognized by the international community as a sovereign nation in 1948. The Zionists planted their flag and with coercive force evicted the indigenous population.

You can debate history and talk at length about certain events such as Al Nakba but you cannot change it. Right or wrong what's done is done. Just ask any member of the many native Indian tribes throughout America whose land was stolen by the European colonists and forced onto reservations. One could make a comparison between the American Indian reservations and the 1.7 million Palestinian people who reside in the 141 square mile open air prison called the Gaza Strip.

However unlike the Palestinians, the Indians are free to come and go as they please. There are no inspection checkpoints, no buffer zones, no controls of imports or exports, no restrictions on the air space above the reservations. The Indians have some sovereignty granted by the U.S. government and they have access to the federal courts to hear their cases.

The Gaza Strip Palestinian are denied certain unfettered human rights such as education (see: http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20080724_gaza_students ). Most recently in September, 2012, the Associated Press reported that five Palestinian students were denied access to the West Bank by the Israelis to study (see: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Israels+supreme+court+uphold... ). The Israeli argument is the Gaza Strip is a hostile territory and therefore the entire population must all be treated as suspected terrorists. The people are collectively punished on a daily basis through an ongoing controlled blockade. These are intolerable acts of oppression on a civilian population.

The Israeli military uses disproportionate overwhelming force to achieve control. During the latest attack, 4 Israeli civilians were reported killed, 240 injured while 103 Palestinian civilians died, over 1,000 others wounded. This is madness on both sides.

A ceasefire in the Gaza Strip brokered by Egypt is now in effect. Will it last? It depends on both sides. Hamas has to stop the rocket attacks. Israel has to recognize the Hamas leadership and lift the land, sea and air blockade. Israel must also stop micromanaging the lives of the Palestinian people so they may enjoy the natural right to freely move about and engage in meaningful commerce.

The U.S. Government must also stop its unwavering support for Israel and look to a balanced solution to the Palestinian people's plight to be recognized as a new Middle East nation.

That's because...

However unlike the Palestinians, the Indians are free to come and go as they please. There are no inspection checkpoints, no buffer zones, no controls of imports or exports, no restrictions on the air space above the reservations.

That's because the Native Americans aren't walking into shopping malls and blowing the hell out of babies. The only reason civilians are hit in Palestine when Israel fires missiles is because the Palestinians set up military sites inside playgrounds.

Don't be so consumed by the evil PTB that you ignore common sense.

why do they

setup military sites inside playgrounds?
How many military sites do they have in playgrounds?

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

You Condemn an Entire Population for the Acts of a Few

Your logic is typical Zionist propaganda. You skip over the reason why there are extremists. It's because the people in the Gaza Strip are being systematically strangled and those that have the courage to strike back are doing so, even with crude weapons.

The Gaza Strip inhabitants have been oppressed for decades and live is one of the most densely populated space on planet Earth. The Israelis continue to harass Palestinian fishermen by naval force, allowing them only 3 miles to fish off the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip (see: http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/control_on_air_space_and_t... ).

We all know what happens when independent groups try to bring humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip by sea (see: http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/mystery-solved-flotilla-cargo-... ): they’re murdered (see: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/gaza-remembers-the-mavi-marmar... ).

Even after this latest cease fire, the Israeli army continues to kill unarmed Palestinian civilians that wander into the Israeli imposed ‘zones of death’ that are Palestinian land (see: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/23/israeli-gunfire-kill...). According to the Associated Press, part of the cease fire details was for Israel to stop targeted killings (see: http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2012/11/21/details... ) but have they done that? No. They still murder with impunity.

Let me try and make this plain. The Israeli army has employed a ‘fire at will’ tactic against unarmed Palestinian civilians. They murder them on their own land (i.e., ‘buffer zones’) (see: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/24/world/middleeast/israel-ga... ). These murders of civilians are in violation of international humanitarian law (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_humanitarian_law ). These acts by Israel are inhuman and have to stop.

As an example, suppose the Italian mafia operated in the New York City area, say the borough of Queens. The mafia raided other boroughs committing acts of mayhem. Would the New York Police Department condemned all Italians in Queens, punish them or shoot them because of the acts of a few? Of course not. If the police did that it would be a disproportionate response, a collective punishment of an ethnic population. This is exactly what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. This is wrong and must end.

You version of history is

You version of history is highly selective. For example, you neglect to mention the FACT that Zionist armies had already made incursions into the areas alotted to the Arabs by the UN before ANY surrounding nation "attacked Israel." Another tired notion, thoroughly discredited by Norman Finkelstein and other JEWISH scholars, is the notion that the Palestinians are largely just Syrians and Jordanians who immigrated to Palestine AFTER the Jewish settlers moved in. The Zionist lies are endless. I could go on and on.

One last thing, as others have reminded on here, the Palestinians and the Jews have close genetic connections, so not sure what discussion of pre modern Israeli history has to do with a just peace.

Through its illegal and racist Jewish only colonization of the remaining 22 per cent the original Palestinian homeland, Israel has destroyed any chance of a viable two state solution. "Terror," otherwise known as resistance when any other people resists colonial rule, will never end till Israel provides for a just settlement of the conflict.

they have to tell lies

they have to tell lies because the truth is so appaling

occupation 101

google/youtube and watch that movie if you dont want to be misled.

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Thanks, took your recommendation

.. and just watched it. Very good documentary, very revealing.

It clearly shows that the level of ignorance - caused by the deliberate brainwashing and exploitation of the public by the clergy, politicians, and mass media in the western world - is appalling.

After watching this (and fact checking it) one can definitely come away feeling sympathetic to those in Palestine - and around the world - who see that the modern Zionist Israeli government needs to be defeated at almost any cost.

My nephew was just here visiting from southeast Asia with his wife. We were commenting on the current situation in Gaza, and told us he has visited there.

His immediate impression?

"Oh yeah. Gaza is a prison. It's a big, open air prison surrounded by barbed wire, guard towers, armed troops and tanks. The conditions are subhuman"

Beyond any political or historic considerations - just by arriving in the place and standing in the street - he saw what it is:

A prison of an entire population of 1.5 to 2 million civilians, under almost complete poverty to the point of starvation, in a place where the buildings are falling down in ruins and there are bullet holes and shell damage all over the buildings left standing.

Add to the the political and historic reality:

That the entire situation was engineered by the elite minority in the Western powers a long time ago, systematically executed over decades to allow land and resources to be outright stolen through aggressive warfare, humiliation, and bloodshed, and ALL militarily, diplomatically and financially supported by the United States.

ie, paid for by the people of America.

There's really not a shadow of a doubt any of what the documentary exposes, or the truth of it. None.

And yet - as evidenced by the original post - as is typical, brainwashed Americans biased by religion, politics, and media completely fail on every level to recognize the truth of what is actually happening and why.

Completely and utterly blind and stupid imo.

PS: I was raised in a Jewish family on my Mom's side. I have 3 of my immediate family members who are strongly and unquestionably pro-Israel at almost any cost.

One of whom is my sister. Who perfectly typifies the modern American born again pro-Zionist to a T. The other two are my Mom and Aunt, who are Jews and closely identify with Israel as a "good" country that does overwhelming "good" in the world, and is almost always "good" and justified ... and must be defended at any cost.

Im glad you watched it

most folks wont watch it.

Interesting also is another key and ironic point.

I'm a rare born-again Christian. One WITH the capability of critical thinking. Here's the illogic from the evangelical folks.

The one true God who created the universe has Israel as his favored people. - I agree

We must stand with Israel and help ensure their security/safety. - Really?

So this one true God of the Bible outsources the protection of Israel to the US?
Also, this one true God hates the folks in Gaza enough to WANT them to be in the condition forced on them by Israel and the US? did satan create these people? I dont think so. GOD DID!!

We SHOULD be an ally of Israel just like other countries. Standing by while they use the very nought zee tactics used on them??
NO FREAKIN WAY!!

This Jefferson quote seems applicable here
"What a stupendous, what an incomprehensible machine is man! Who can endure toil, famine, stripes, imprisonment & death itself in vindication of his own liberty, and the next moment ... inflict on his fellow men a bondage, one hour of which is fraught with more misery than ages of that which he rose in rebellion to oppose"

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Actually the regular people

Actually the regular people of both sides are the victims if en elite scheme for perpetual war. Hamas and the Isreali government and other factions carry out this scheme fully aware.

If you shoot rockets or suicide bomb the Israelis of course there is going to be retribution and visa a versa... When ever things die down Hamas seems to incite things again or the Israelis do something that inflames the fears and hatreds and hamas supposedly retaliates. How convenient...

Do the Palestinian people really want them to continue to do this? After decades of both sides being harmed by this conflict there are deep seated hatreds based on fear and deception etc. and its easy to incite either side now by tapping into those powerful emotions.

I say get us the hell out of it and let them have their ancient modern war and let the chips fall where the may. Still the regular people of the region will be the losers either way on either side...

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Although it is hard to say when this war started,

this latest round did NOT start with Hamas firing a rocket. It started with the IDF murdering a kid playing soccer. That part seems to be lost on everyone, even though the MSM reported the event.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/09/world/meast/gaza-violence/inde...

They buried the boy November 9. For Israel to pretend the rockets were "terrorist attacks" out of the blue is nonsense. Again, Israel started a battle and pointed their finger at the other guy when he retaliated.

I agree we need to get out of it, but we need to get Israel's minions out of US, too.

This is the article that got my posting privileges revoked:
http://bklim.newsvine.com/_news/2013/05/12/18212165-dr-stan-...

Both sides are culpable in

Both sides are culpable in starting shit. So it was the Israelis this time it will be Hamas the next that is if of course you can believe the media either way. Like I said it is a small faction on both sides that keeps this whole thing inflamed at this point it doesn't really matter who started the latest incident the regular people suffer for it all...

I agree on the Israeli influence on the US government course we need to get the entire government out of the US too..

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

The situation in Palestine/Israel is an historically unique one.

Comparisons can be made from other times and places but nothing that has happened in human history quite resembles what is going on in Palestine/Israel today.

There is little doubt that I could assemble a page of quotations from another perspective that would demonstrate the opposite conclusion to the one that you have reached with this OP but that is exactly what has been going on for as long as there has been a Jewish State in Palestine and it serves no purpose apart from entrenching the already firmly anchored hostility between the two peoples.

My own search in this regard has been to seek out the purposes of God in permitting the re-establishment of a Jewish State in the ancient Land given originally by Him to the nation of Israel. I believe I have discovered the truth of the matter and it is a truth that is not at all like anything that is presently believed by the world at large, nor the Christian community and certainly not by the Jews nor the Palestinians who live today in the Land.

I addressed this in another post today so I will copy and paste here what I wrote there. It begins with the assertion that the fig tree is the symbol of Judah not Israel:

The olive tree is the symbol of Israel.

The fig tree that Jesus addressed in the Gospels had no fruit only leaves and He cursed it (Mark 11:12, 20). The fig tree that is symbolic of the current Jewish State also only puts forth leaves (Mark 13:28). It has been a recurrent problem ever since our first parents covered themselves with fig leaves to hide their flesh (in symbol, their opposition to God).

The Lord is always looking for fruit from those who lay claim to the Kingdom as do the modern Jews. This is the meaning of the parable of the vineyard (Luke 20:9-19) They crucified the Son and usurped His sceptre. They have also usurped the Birthright name of Israel which was given to the sons of Joseph by Jacob/Israel.

Genesis 48:14 "Israel stretched out his right hand and placed it on Ephraim’s head, although he was the younger. Crossing his hands, he put his left hand on Manasseh’s head, for Manasseh was the firstborn.

48:15 Then he blessed Joseph and said, “May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 48:16 the Angel who has protected me from all harm – bless these boys. May my name be named in them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac. May they grow into a multitude on the earth.”

When Jesus came the first time He came in the tribe of Judah to claim the sceptre, the Kingship.

Genesis 49:10 "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him."

When He comes the second time He comes in the tribe of Joseph to claim His Kingdom. Joseph was the Birthright holder to whom the double portion of the firstborn was given (symbolic of Heaven and Earth over which Jesus asserts authority in Matthew 28:18 that is the ground of the Great Commission) and passed down to his children Ephraim and Manasseh. Joseph was sold as a slave for twenty pieces of silver to a caravan of Ishmaelites at Judah's suggestion and disappeared from view for 21 years, the second time of Jacob's trouble. His brothers told their father he had been killed by wild animals and showed him the special coat that Jacob had given him now dipped in blood.

Genesis 37:31 "So they took Joseph’s tunic, killed a young goat, and dipped the tunic in the blood. 37:32 Then they brought the special tunic to their father and said, “We found this. Determine now whether it is your son’s tunic or not.” 37:33 He recognized it and exclaimed, “It is my son’s tunic! A wild animal has eaten him! Joseph has surely been torn to pieces!” 37:34 Then Jacob tore his clothes, put on sackcloth, and mourned for his son many days."

This is then reiterated in the Revelation:

Revelation 19:11 "Then I saw heaven opened and here came a white horse! The one riding it was called “Faithful” and “True,” and with justice he judges and goes to war. 19:12 His eyes are like a fiery flame and there are many diadem crowns on his head. He has a name written that no one knows except himself. 19:13 He is dressed in clothing dipped in blood, and he is called the Word of God."

The blessings given to Joseph by Jacob/Israel are above and beyond any others yet the descendants of Joseph, the Northern KIngdom of Israel, were banished by God from the Land, taken into captivity by the Assyrian Empire, between 745 B.C. and 721 B.C. They then became "lost" or hidden from view for a very long time...the final and full time of Jacob's trouble (13X210 years) ending between 1986 (the 120th. Jubilee from Adam) and 2010. The time for the revelation of Joseph is close at hand. It is worth noting that Joshua who led the children of Israel into the Promised Land and is a type of the Lord Jesus (Yeshua or Joshua) was an Ephraimite a descendant of Joseph.

Genesis 49:22 "Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough near a spring whose branches climb over the wall. 49:23 The archers will attack him, they will shoot at him and oppose him. 49:24 But his bow will remain steady, and his hands will be skilful; because of the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 49:25 because of the God of your father, who will help you,because of the sovereign God, who will bless you with blessings from the sky above, blessings from the deep that lies below, and blessings of the breasts and womb. 49:26 The blessings of your father are greater than the blessings of the eternal mountains or the desirable things of the age-old hills. They will be on the head of Joseph and on the brow of the prince of his brothers."

These are the blessings that the Jewish State is seeking to usurp by deceptively and deliberately adopting the Birthright name of Israel.

However, the present Jewish State IS in possession of the Land lawfully due to the fact that the people of modern Jewry include the descendants of the tribes of Esau/Edom. These were incorporated into Judah during the time of the Maccabees when they extended the borders of Judea and conquered Edom (Idumea) in 126 B.C. The Idumeans were given the option of staying in their fatherland if they agreed to be circumcised and become Jews. This they agreed to. These Edomites were amongst the most zealous defenders of Jerusalem during the wars of 66-73 A.D. ending with the fall of Masada. Jerusalem and the Herodian temple were destroyed in 70 A.D bringing to an end the sacrificial and ceremonial system which was central to the Jewish religion of the time and had been fulfilled in the Crucifixion and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jacob had cheated his brother Esau out of the Birthright and his father Isaac's blessing. Even though it was God's intention that Jacob receive the Birthright he had acquired it unlawfully so Esau was due restitution.

Esau had always coveted the Land so God arranged for him to gain control of it through the British who were the descendants of Jacob under their ensign the Union Jack (Jacob). The British were blinded to their identity just as Isaac had been blinded to the identity of Jacob pretending to be Esau. The Jews wrested control of Palestine away from them through terrorist actions. This was a fulfilment of the prophecy given by Isaac to Esau when he begged him for a blessing after he returned from the field and cooked him a meal of venison as he had requested.

Genesis 27:38 Esau said to his father, “Do you have only that one blessing, my father? Bless me too!” Then Esau wept loudly. 27:39 So his father Isaac said to him, “Indeed, your home will be away from the richness of the earth, and away from the dew of the sky above. 27:40 You will live by your sword but you will serve your brother. When you grow restless, you will tear off his yoke from your neck.”

This means of course that all the prophecies that are given about Edom will now be fulfilled by the Jewish State. A good example are those in the book of Obadiah.

The prophecies of Ezekiel chapter 38 can also be understood as referring to the many Jews who have made aliyah from the regions mentioned into the Land of unwalled villages and the Zionists do reflect the covetous attitude that Edom has always had towards the Land. In other words these prophecies have already been fulfilled by the Zionist immigrations and the Land is now an armed camp with walls being built there continuously.

One very clear example of the character of Edom can be found in Psalm 52 that speaks of Doeg the Edomite who betrayed David to King Saul. It speaks to us today as we view the actions of the leaders of the Jewish State.

Psalm 52.

52:1 Why do you boast about your evil plans, O powerful man? God’s loyal love protects me all day long!
52:2 Your tongue carries out your destructive plans; it is as effective as a sharp razor, O deceiver.
52:3 You love evil more than good, lies more than speaking the truth. (Selah)

52:4 You love to use all the words that destroy, and the tongue that deceives.
52:5 Yet God will make you a permanent heap of ruins. He will scoop you up and remove you from your home; he will uproot you from the land of the living. (Selah)

52:6 When the godly see this, they will be filled with awe, and will mock the evildoer, saying:
52:7 “Look, here is the man who would not make God his protector! He trusted in his great wealth and was confident about his plans to destroy others.”
52:8 But I am like a flourishing olive tree in the house of God; I continually trust in God’s loyal love.
52:9 I will continually thank you when you execute judgment; I will rely on you, for your loyal followers know you are good.

Verses 4 and 5 above indicate something that I believe is going to happen at some time quite soon. The time for the counterfeit State of Israel to produce fruit worthy of the Kingdom of God, reflecting His nature and character and His plan and purpose is now expiring. Edom is symbolic of the flesh, enmity to God, and can therefore never yield Kingdom fruit. There can only ever be one end. The picture given in Isaiah 29 is not only of the end of that nation but also of those who are involved in the final conflict. I believe it pictures a nuclear event that will render the Land uninhabitable for anyone so that no-one will be the victor.

"29:1 Ariel is as good as dead – Ariel, the town David besieged! Keep observing your annual rituals, celebrate your festivals on schedule. 29:2 I will threaten Ariel, and she will mourn intensely and become like an altar hearth before me. 29:3 I will lay siege to you on all sides; I will besiege you with troops; I will raise siege works against you. 29:4 You will fall; while lying on the ground you will speak; from the dust where you lie, your words will be heard. Your voice will sound like a spirit speaking from the underworld; from the dust you will chirp as if muttering an incantation.

29:5 But the horde of invaders will be like fine dust, the horde of tyrants like chaff that is blown away. It will happen suddenly, in a flash. 29:6 Judgment will come from the Lord who commands armies, accompanied by thunder, earthquake, and a loud noise, by a strong gale, a windstorm, and a consuming flame of fire. 29:7 It will be like a dream, a night vision. There will be a horde from all the nations that fight against Ariel, those who attack her and her stronghold and besiege her. 29:8 It will be like a hungry man dreaming that he is eating, only to awaken and find that his stomach is empty. It will be like a thirsty man dreaming that he is drinking, only to awaken and find that he is still weak and his thirst unquenched. So it will be for the horde from all the nations that fight against Mount Zion."

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I wouldn't say misled

but I do notice some here who immediately dismiss everything and everyone if there's even a HINT of pro-Israel sentiment, which seems more like a kneejerk reaction than anything else.

And yeah, quite a few people still use Judaism and Zionism interchangeably, and seem to think they're one and the same (from people on all sides of the Israel issue).

Granger has the right idea below. Get the US out of Israel and Israel out of the US. I have no issue being their "friends", but I DO have a problem with the US being their golem.

EDIT: typos D:

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Are you sure you are not mislead?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israels-gove...

Mossad, as mentioned, has a motto of "By Way Of Deception That Shall Wage War."
The USS Liberty proves Israel believes they are at war with us, and they have an obvious motive to try to keep people from realizing it.

Those "knee jerk" reactions may not be as irrational as you think. Some of us have been digging into the dark places of history where angels fear to tread, and we are ever vigilant against enemies of the TRUTH. Let me think.... anybody you know about sound like an enemy of the truth?

This is the article that got my posting privileges revoked:
http://bklim.newsvine.com/_news/2013/05/12/18212165-dr-stan-...

Is the WP your source of

Is the WP your source of "truth"

That article is clearly evidence of biased US media coverage of the aggression of the Palestinians. You know the media is biased. Most of the time people claim it's biased because it's controlled by Zionists. Nearly every report of the latest violence threw Israel under the bus. It doesn't add up. Why would Israel skew the stories in the US media to shed itself in a poor light? This article even downplays the bus bomb from just the other day. Saying that it was Israeli propaganda to report that they were victims of these attacks. It's clear that if they don't report it, our media sure won't.

I never see the media ask

I never see the media ask Israeli apologists these simple questions:

When has Israel EVER recognized Palestine as a state?

Why is it wrong for the Palestinians to use violent resistance against the Israeli occupation and Jewish only colonization of the West Bank, when other groups resisting oppression (see the Libyan or Syrian "rebels"), are actually funded by the West?

What would Israel do if Palestine occupied a portion of Israel and set up Arab only "settlements" in what is now Israel?

If Hamas is the reason why Israel has not been able to make peace, why hasn't Israel reached a just settlement with the Palestinians who run the West Bank? There has been virtually zero terrorism from the West Bank over the last five or more years, yet Israel still continues to build illegal Jewish ONLY racial colonies within East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The UN has ruled these actions illegal, time and again, with US support. The US no longer seems to care about UN resolutions unless a nation we don't like is the rogue state.

I understand that, Fishy

but when I see people here demonizing ALL Israelis and/or Jews (groupthink), I have to shake my head. Were ALL the Germans Nazis? Are ALL Americans feeding the MIC? The answer is no. That's all I was trying to say, really.

I'm fully aware of Mossad's deceptive ways and the USS liberty, but again, that doesn't make every Israeli a bad person or them wrong on every issue.

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Most of us do not lump all

Most of us do not lump all Jews together so relax. I would be more concerned with the evidence of anti Arab bigotry I see even here by Israel's biggest supporters.

reply

I just "relaxed" about 20 minutes ago, so I'm good :), and I know that most don't.

And yeah, there's plenty of anti-Arab bigotry, but that doesn't justify being bigoted in return. (not saying *you* are that way so "relax" ;) )

Anti-Arab bigotry is just as bad and I also point it out when I see it.

My entire point was that while I condemn the Israeli government and many of their actions (as well as their very founding), I'm not going to paint them all with the same brush, just as I wouldn't with any other "group".

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I posted this today because I

I posted this today because I felt like the discussion has been lopsided lately. I'm glad to see that there are liberty minded folks here like me who don't just jump on the bandwagon. I think DP serves us all better when we can have open, constructive discussions on topics that just aren't discussed without a real bias in news and other media sources. I know it helps me find out where I really stand on important issues - Keeps me grounded.

one thing you touched on

about jumping on a bandwagon and becoming biased-- I think it's inevitable to a certain extent, if only because I observe it with every news source (political or otherwise). News that is slanted to cater to my POV is still slanted nonetheless.

I also enjoy being able to openly discuss "third rail" issues on here with like-minded, and occasionally opposite-minded folks. I like when someone is able to intelligently challenge my POV, keeps me on my toes.

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