18 votes

I was the libertarian black sheep at Thanksgiving.

My cousins were making fun of Papas Johns for opposing obamacare.

"I don't mind 11 cents per pizza if it means their workers have good healthcare."

I had no response. It was a purely emotional argument.

What would the rational Austrian response be to this statement? Make it simple. One sentence.




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i'd say

right on!!!
now lets make it so my car insurance covers my tune ups.
i'm entitled to a mechanic.

"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul

it's easy to see how confused they are

the 11 cents doesn't get them heath care, it gets them health insurance.

The insurance company will decide what the 'care' is.

Me too...but guess what!

My Grandma said: "I am so sick of this two-party system. It's gonna be you young people & your ideas that will save this country!"

On an unrelated note Papa

On an unrelated note Papa Johns Is terrible Pizza... It must be different where you're from but in new york it was an over greased mess unworthy of ingestion. All the chain pizza places are pretty horrible tbh

Good Healthcare?

"ObamaCare side effects may include swollen deficits, shortness of doctors, difficulty getting treatment, elevated tax rates and premature death."
or
"If you like waiting in line at the DMV, your going to love ObamaCare."
or
48.6 million Americans currently have no Health Insurance... Picture Black Friday at Walmart, but with a waiting room.
or
Says who? The fed gov can't even deliver the mail efficiently.
or
If you think it's a good idea having the same fed govt responsible for your Social Security be responsible for your healthcare, I have a bridge for sale at a great price.

As consumers, they have a

As consumers, they have a right to boycott corporations they feel do not treat their workers well. I think this is the liberalism of the future. Not relying on govt to take care of workers. Making consumer choice the real political power.

Ummm.. Just go full broken windows fallacy on them...

So, the average Papa John's sells 35 pizzas a day, there are 3330 Papa Johns across the U.S, and they are being forced to pay charge an additional $0.11 per pizza. This means that our society consumes 42.5 million pizza from Papa John over a year on average. However, the addional $0.11 per pizza will amount to $4.5 million dollars.

So, now instead of our society consuming 42.5 million pizzas and having an addional $4.5 million dollars we will just get 42.5 million pizzas.

There obvious rebuttal will be: yeah, but we get health care now!

To which I would reply: "If you believe that, I have a great retire plan for you, it's called social security."

It used to be easy to become a slave

Now you have to go to 4 years of college and 4 years of medical school.

"Home is where it's hardest."
-Tommy

OMG PANDAS!!! LOCK UP THE CHILDREN!!!
-me

It's a bit twisted

that all Papa John's is doing is announcing the added cost and they are calling this opposition. This makes them a villain to pro-Obama people. What if they lied and said it costs nothing or costs them less? Would that make them saints?

Defend Liberty!

just tell them

you were raised believing that Stealing from someone else was wrong. This usually leads to conversation about property rights, individual liberties/rights and taxes.
Say as little as possible...people get it faster that way. Instead of telling them how it should be, just shrug your shoulders ( I have seen Dr.Paul do this) and say, "well, certainly lots of poeple believe that, I personally believe that stealing is wrong.
Thats whenn they stop and think. Remember, most people have been brought up to think that taxes and "paying-in" are a duty. They do not see it as money being stolen from them...its all part of the keynesian fantasy economics they teach in public school...in fact, its exactly opposite. people who dont pay taxes are seen as stealing from the government! sheesh!

I'd rather have a bottle in front o' me than a frontal lobotomy
www.tattoosbypaul.com
www.bijoustudio-atx.com

not everyone is willing to pay more...thus people will lose jobs

Particularly those that appear unhealthy.

I would have responded with a question.

How much will insurance premiums be for Papa Johns workers?

You see, not everyone can afford $70+ weekly for insurance they probably won't use. I'm in that group. I don't have insurance. I DO have a mortgage.
I would rather pay my mortgage than buy insurance.
Who is Obamacare really helping?
The insurance companies is the answer.

You better believe once people are forced to buy a policy with ridiculous co-payments and high premiums, they will use that insurance for any sniffle or cough.
Further driving up costs.

One sentence:

"The market, if allowed to work, can provide goods and services, such as healthcare, at lower prices and/or at higher quality to more people than the government ever can."

...but one sentence isn't going to do it. One sentence means you're operating at the level of soundbites and slogans and, sadly, the winner of that game is the team who repeats their soundbite or slogan the most. An occasional conversation with a relative can't compete with several hours per day every day of TV. As long as a person remains in the habit of accepting others' opinions uncritically, as opposed to reasoning out his own conclusions, his opinion at any given time will be the opinion of the latest person he allowed to thus influence him: for most Americans that's a TV personality. They'll be absolutely led by the nose, their opinions (expressed in talking point form) changing with flow of the news cycle, without having any idea that their opinions aren't their own, where they really originated, or that they don't even know why they hold those opinions.

Proving an individual point in an argument with a person such as I've described is completely useless. Suppose they agree with you on some point. A week later, they'll have entirely forgotten this, and picked up the latest talking point from their preferred TV station, which might be utterly contrary to the point that they agreed with you on days earlier. But they don't see the contradiction. Because their knowledge is not systematic, it doesn't rests on principles, it is not understanding at all, it is nothing but a series of slogans or talking points; they cannot connect one issue to another. Prove to them that government regulation X is bad on Monday, and Tuesday they'll be telling you how government regulation Y is great. And you can prove to them that it's bad for the same reason as regulation X was bad, and they'll agree. Lesson learned? Nope, on Wednesday, they parrot the TV talking point that regulation Z is great. It never ends, because all this is just a jumble of unrelated data in their minds. That's why you can't make any progress with them. Though they might agree with you on some point, they aren't really learning anything. Why? Because they aren't really thinking. They are merely parroting. Parroting the TV, and then, if you convince them of your point, parroting you...till the next talking point comes along. But you lose the fight with the TV, because the TV is always on. It's not that they're stupid, it's that they have been trained to think this way - or, rather, to not think at all. Learning to parrot information rather than learning how to think critically: the fruits of public education.

The only solution is to get them to think critically. Presenting them with information won't do the job. Insofar as you do that, presenting them with your own opinions, you're only competing with the TV in trying to elicit a parrot-like response. Rather, they need to be critical of what even you are saying, and work it through for themselves, so that they understand why it's right. That's the only way to beat the propaganda machine, because it will always win the battle of slogans and talking points by sheer volume of materiel blasted out to the parrots.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

Another response -

The valuation of goods results from what people are willing to pay for that particular good given their wants at the time. When the price is raised, consumption necessarily decreases. The optimum market price minimizes production while increasing revenue for the producer. Production beyond the optimum level decreases revenue. In addition, over-pricing or under-pricing also decrease revenue. Due to this natural pricing mechanism, the price cannot simply be passed on to the consumer. As a result of the price increase due to the additional overhead created by government, there will be less demand for the pizza. Naturally, because less pizzas will be consumed, less employees will be needed to prepare and deliver the pies. Ultimately, all businesses affected will decrease the number of people they employ. Rather than having healthcare provided by their employer, many people will find themselves unemployed unable to afford any healthcare at all. As a result of healthcare being mandated, those newly unemployed people will have to have healthcare as well. After all, it's a right. But... healthcare is not free. So, as the number of unemployed grow, the remaining, ever-dwindling part of the population that is productive will be saddled with an ever-increasing burden imposed upon them by government forcing them to take care of the others that through government policy have become unproductive. Eventually, everyone is reduced to poverty. Socialism will continue to fail, regardless of the planners benevolent intentions.

This warrants more than a one sentence answer, but...

if I was forced to limit my response, I would say something to the effect - "If you think everyone in America should have nice shoes, should you be able to use the force of law to compel me to pay to fulfill your desire to provide those shoes?"

I would try to add - "After all, people have to use their feet to work. If everyone had suitable footwear, the productivity of the nation may improve 10-fold. Who knows maybe we can prevent lower back problems and increase productivity even more! It's settled - Nice footwear must be made a right! Free orthopedic footwear for everyone!"

Before one knows it, no individual has any personal responsibility for anything. All the productive people come to believe that they owe all their labor to 'society,' and all the unproductive people come to believe that 'society' owes them everything. The number of the unproductive swell as the productive become tired of being milked. Eventually no one cares, and 'society' becomes unable to sustain itself.

MY RESPONSE WOULD HAVE BEEN...

"But the problem with any kind of government healthcare is that it makes the prices go up. Look at what happened to the cost of healthcare after medicare, medicaid, prescription drug laws, etc. If government involvement in the healthcare industry was making it more affordable for people, then why have prices for services and medication increased after these programs were in place?"

You're talking about a person that would say

what they did.. Do you really think they'd put together healthcare prices with socialistic government programs? If it were that easy, they would have probably figured it out long ago.

I see the connection and you see the connection but obviously at least 1/3rd of America does not.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

tasmlab's picture

Yea, in fact...

It goes even beyond what you say. The high prices are seen as a pox delivered from the healthcare corporations, hence the "Affordable Healthcare Act" which promises to lower prices.

But it's like economic scat porn. Here in Massachusetts they have legislators negotiate premium prices with the healthcare cartel. Prices go up 17% per year!

Currently consuming: Harry Browne, Free Domain Radio; JT Gatto and Holt; Wii U

To me, it doesn't seem hard to see.

I don't understand why people don't see it too. It's not really hard I don't think but so many don't get it.

These simple economic arguments remind me of when I used to play online FPS games... They were usually objective based, you either had to protect certain bases or sites or you were attacking them.. Really simple idea right?

Hardly anyone seemed able to figure that out... you might have 3 to 5 on your team that got the idea of it... 3/4 of the rest were always negative scoring while being the positive scores of the other team.

It was hilarious at first but after 15 years of playing FPS's, I realized that the general population are just complete morons and not just because they can't play a game well, I see that kind of stupidity.... Every day of my life.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

"Yeah and soon you'll be able

"Yeah and soon you'll be able to pay for it with your RFID implant!"

I would say

I would voluntarily give Papa Johns $2 dollar per pizza as long as I knew the money wasn't going to our war-mongering criminal government and instead went to a charity to help the needy.

Bottom line: People should have the freedom to choose how to spend their own money. Forced government redistribution of wealth is not moral and not considered charity. It's theft and violence. Period.

If your not happy will all aspects of the job

This includes "No Healthcare Coverage" get busy and find a job that does, or find a second job and buy your own. Problem solved.

Just one last kick in the nuts, then a final deathblow

stealing

Taking from me (via taxation) and giving it to someone else is stealing. It is not charity. Charity is when i voluntarily give something i have worked for to someone else in order to help them.

I try to make people feel like an idiot for that kind of thing

"It's nice to know you're pro theft as long as you agree with the reason for the theft."

- or -

"There is no such thing, by definition, as compelled charity. Charity is voluntary. Compelled charity is theft. "

- or something milder -

"That 11 cents isn't just taxed onto my pizza. It's on all of my groceries, my gas, my clothes, it's in everything I need to survive and it adds up fast."

- or -

Should I have the right to force you to buy something you don't agree with? So then why is it OK for you?

- Grow Mushrooms at Home
http://subfarms.com

I like the last one.. Perfection.

Oh and for the record.. That's about the only thing I've ever found that works well.. embarrass them in some way and you reach them. Show them how stupid their approach is and you'll get two results.. they'll hunker down and dig in with more silliness or they'll come back to you later and tell you that you were right.

It's an asshole move but I can't argue with its success.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Who gets to define what "good healthcare" is?

Government or patients?

That is the best I can come up with for one sentence.
I REALLY like the reply below - FIND COMMON GROUND.

This is the article that got my posting privileges revoked:
http://bklim.newsvine.com/_news/2013/05/12/18212165-dr-stan-...

tasmlab's picture

Find common ground

I would say something like "I don't mind paying 11 cents more if the employees have access to affordable, high quality healthcare either. I think affordable, quality care would be great to have."

And it's true!

Then start finding some points that both you and the lefties can take some shots at.

"But what really gets to me is how everything has to go through the healthplan corporations! It seems a little cozy for the for-profit healthcare corporations to lobby to make laws that all healthcare has to go through them."

Then point out how medicare and medicaid also all go through the big corporations. Have your grandpa take out his health insurance card - sure enough it's not US govt but it is Blue Cross or Cigna.

Now talk about how monopolies can hurt people. Oooh! Lefties hate monopolies!

But wait! most monopolies at least have the refuge of people at least not purchasing the product. If my local business is gouging me, I can always stop buying even if I can't find a competitor.

Hmm... Obamacare has a mandate. It's a corporate monopoly enforced by the government. It's like a super monopoly enforced by guns (OK, maybe don't say the last part).

If you can explain a little about how monopolies often drive costs up, that would be good.

And, wow, Massachusetts already has six years of experience on this plan. How are there insurance premiums these days? Oh, highest in the country. 17% increases every year. Interesting!

Hmmm... but I'm a nice person and would still pay 11 cents more per pizza for healthcare. How else, though, might people get affordable, quality healthcare?

I mean, the employees' healthcare costs are borne out of the pizza at some point, since all of their money comes from paychecks, and all paychecks are paid from selling pizzas (this is a bit of economic slight of hand anyways).

And so on.

If they are going to be big hearted, virtuous progressives, at least get them onto single-payor or something. Obamacare itself has enough to make people of all persuasions barf.

Currently consuming: Harry Browne, Free Domain Radio; JT Gatto and Holt; Wii U

Most people can't be reasoned with.. If they were reasonable

to begin with, they'd see this as an illogical approach from the start.

In the end, all of the talk is just a justification for doing what they WANT, not what makes sense.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

To those kinds of people you simply say...

"Pass the salt."

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience"—Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

And when they do, INSPECT IT!

Sample a little on the side before sprinkling it over your spuds, for example. When they ask what you are doing explain, "Clearly you cannot be relied on to recognize theft and extortion, why should I trust you to know salt?"

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West of 89
a novel of another america
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