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Right To Health Care Trumps Individual Liberty?

VOTE UP AND COMMENT.

This healthcare debate I've repeatedly found myself in lately has some serious ramifications for the defense of individual liberty going forward. Unfortunately this brutal pure democracy of ours is choosing "free stuff" through force. It's such a tyrannical and evil system this country is quickly endorsing and it's completely contradictory. Understand the contradictions so you can easily destroy their emotional argument and point out it's failures.

http://youtu.be/zU0PhGZfmWE



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SOCIALISM = FORCED SHARING

"SOCIALISM = FORCED SHARING" would be a cool bumper sticker. Thanks for sharing this link.

"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, Brave, Hated, and Scorned. When his cause succeeds however,the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a Patriot.” ~Mark Twain

There Is No Right to Healthcare

You can't force people to provide healthcare to you because it violates their rights. Your rights end where their rights begin, and everyone has the same Creator-given rights.

You have a right to seek your own treatments as long as you don't violate anyone else's rights, but you don't have a right to take it against their wills.

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

Obamatax

Saw a bumper sticker the other day that read "Repeal Obamacare" with care slashed out and tax written in. This person had a Romney/Ryan sticker too so those still trapped in the two party mentality even get it. It is a tax.

The whole concept of government forcing the issue of anything having to do with something as personal as health is antithetical to individual liberty.

I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war. Ps 120:7
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Better to be divided by truth than united in error.
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"I am the door." -Jesus Christ

WHO DEFINES "HEALTHCARE?"

This is so fundamental it gets lost in the shuffle. The poster below who is worried about his insurance going up to cover the uninsured... everyone ASSUMES that everyone else wants access to doctors and hospitals. I want access to a Rife machine, to vitamin B-17, to cannabis oil. WHEN DO I GET THE LIBERTY TO CHOOSE MY OWN HEALTHCARE?
I was the clinical director for the biggest eye clinic in Idaho. I know exactly how "modern medicine" works and I want no part of it. For trauma, they are fine. They know how to stitch and cut and cut and stitch and they know how to prescribe drugs. THEY DO NOT TRY TO CURE. I want you to really think about that - our healthcare system is run by men and women who have been educated that they cannot cure disease. Truly, I would prefer snake oil. Knowing what I know about fish oil and coconut oil and such, I suspect the snake oil may be more beneficial than the drugs currently being prescribed to TREAT SYMPTOMS - not cure.
So, do I get free snake oil out of the deal?

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Who defines healthcare? Since the government has 'coined'...

the term, in one sense, it tends to define it. This means : Obama appointees at DHS. Whether you are a Democrat or Republican, this is bad news. We all will be paying for 'health care solutions' that we are diametrically opposed to. The liberty to not pay for health care you do not approve of is as important as the liberty to choose the healthcare you do.

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." ~~Thomas Jefferson

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

You won't be paying for it if

You won't be paying for it if you are certain religious organizations and unions... Maybe become one of those for four years?

Looking for good arguments against universal healthcare?

"Employer-provided health insurance has its origin in a tax policy passed in 1943, which made insurance provided by employers tax free. At the time the United States was engaged in World War II and had enacted wage and price controls,[5] preventing employers from competing for scarce labor using the normal mechanism of offering a higher salary. Instead, businesses used the availability of newly tax-subsidized healthcare as a means of differentiating themselves."

Use this as a chance to bust universal healthcare as well as other arguments like price controls (aka minimum wage).

One of many great arguments made in this short article:
http://mises.org/daily/4434

What does individual liberty

What does individual liberty really mean when it comes to healthcare.

If you don't have health insurance, and the hospital has to increase my rates to take care of the treatment they gave to your uninsured ass, hasn't your liberty to not have health insurance conflicted with my liberty to not be affected by your decisions?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Ever heard of "no fault" insurance?

It is how free people would do it.
I can't believe everyone is fussing about this. They mandated auto insurance and everyone complied. Now I have to buy enough insurance to cover the other guy's car that is "worth" more than everything I own, while I have enough sense to drive paid for vehicles. OK, push them from time to time... But no fault insurance forces him to cover his own risks and me to cover mine.
ALL insurance is a scam to make the banksters (wait while they slip into another hat) rich on insurance money, and the derivatives and such they play. Did you know most employers insure employees to THEY get paid if the employee dies? Not a benefit to the family, just a little "cha-ching" for them.
In a free society, you cannot force me to buy anything.
How is that confusing you?

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

But through his actions, he

But through his actions, he is FORCING you to get no-cost insurance.

Technically, in a free society, you cannot force anyone to do anything....which means in a free society, everything is permitted, even the use of force by individuals against each other.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Your arguement has a problem

Answer this: why was healthcare cheaper when fewer people had insurance?

That isn't my argument. I am

That isn't my argument. I am simply making the point that without the mandate, you are on the hook for someone else's medical care anyways.

But on the question, a correlation does not imply causation. Healthcare was also cheaper in the 1500s, when spitting on a wound was considered medicine, and people were lucky to live to their 40s.

I do think that the prominence of health insurance contributes to our increased costs. Not only because they have to take 20% up top, but the lack of negotiation between provider and customer (a middle man) causes higher costs to the disadvantage of the customer. However, I think a much bigger reason why healthcare costs have gone up is the declining health of the average American. You also have EMTALA and higher pharmaceutical research costs.

A question for you: healthcare is cheaper and much more efficient in industrialized nations that have more socialized health care. How do you explain that?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

"Efficiency" is a slippery term

For example, Medicare only has about 5% overhead costs versus private insurance at about 15%-20%. But Medicare has an approximately 20% fraud rate...effectively cancelling any 'efficiency.'

Also, it is certainly more 'efficient' to limit capital expenditures in medical care to eliminate duplicating services, but when you need more neo-natal incubators in one Canadian town than exist in an entire Canadian province, then perhaps the outrageous duplication of capital investment in multiple incubators in a modest sized Wyoming (or Montana?) city seems very efficient, as you can fly your wife there for a the safe delivery of your newborns. (true story)

It may also be more efficient to limit expenditures on people beyond a certain age, as they do in Germany, thereby condemning an 80 year old arthritic woman to a life of debillitating hip pain (also a true story).

Indeed, before Obama, Canadian and European economists were concerned that the medical inflation rate was higher in their countries than it was in the U.S., and they were considering reforms to make their systems more market oriented. (Source was Mark Steyn, I believe.) Maybe 'efficiency' is in the eye of the beholder.

Since over half of all money spent on healthcare in this country is spent by Federal and State governments, I think it is pretty clear where all the money is coming from that is driving the price increases. And, yes, it is the influx of money that drives up prices, whether it is gold, or corn, or education, or medical care.

To address your original concern, the 'free rider' problem, it is a fact of life that what one person does or doesn't do will have effects on other people. For example, the people who insist on only buying goods 'on sale' actually cause retailers to keep their regular prices higher for people who either cannot wait for a sale or who are less conscious of prices. Yet it would be ridiculous to have price controls just because impatient early adopters are willing to pay more than people who are willing to wait.

If a hospital wants to give away some of its' services to some patients while charging other patients, that is their prerogative. That was the basis of the charity hospital...pay if you can, but you won't get turned away if you can't. I'm not that old, but I was born in a hospital run by the Sisters of St Joseph. Ron Paul was a doctor in a charity hospital. Everyone got served. Not everyone paid, and those who did helped to subsidize those who didn't. Unfair? Not really. The services belonged to the hospital and the doctors to be given out as they saw fit. The services weren't mine to control.

I think that people get themselves all bent out of shape because they see someone getting something at a reduced rate, or free, and conclude that everyone else must be getting ripped off. Not so. Unless, of course, you consider the price you pay for a sweater in September to be a ripoff, and the price you pay in December to be unfairly subsidized.

Remember county hospitals?

Local control, local caregivers. Most everybody knew who was poor, and you just adjusted the bill for them. Took payment in doilies. Whatever. Now swallowed by various "Saints" hell bent on maximum profit.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

actually they charge individuals more for services

So yes, your insurance goes up. However, insurance companies get bulk discounts so to speak so the ones who really pay the most are individuals....the ones that actually pay their bills that is.

you think the health care system

we have now is due to the free market?

"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul

The free market will produce

The free market will produce universal health care!

especially if pharmaceutical patenting is abolished.

oh, and prescription laws.

oh, and prescription laws.

If pharmaceutical patenting

If pharmaceutical patenting is abolished, you will see drug discovery plummet. It might maintain because of patent laws in Europe...

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

If you have a less worn out

If you have a less worn out pro-IP(for pharmaceuticals) argument that is not based on monopoly incentives, I would actually be interested in hearing it.

If pharmaceutical patenting

If pharmaceutical patenting is abolished, you will see drug discovery plummet. It might maintain because of patent laws in Europe...

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

good

We have too many drugs already. We need to focus on not needing them in the first place.

Adopt the old Soviet workers

Adopt the old Soviet workers attitude under Communism... "They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work".

I have become so demoralized under Obama's watch, I do only what I need to just scrape by. I pretend to work.

I like this, (As long as you continue to be diligent under....

the table, underground....)You can beat the system by bartering, and other means.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

In this new America (as I

In this new America (as I call it) it behooves you to be a moocher, not a producer. You're punished for success. The thing is, it's been like this for a very long time. We just did not have a Ron Paul to force us to see this government for what it is. Obama's just been more brazen about it and so have the pathetic American people. The voters disgust me more than anyone. They have blood on their hands.