8 votes

"BITCOIN" posts get no traction here... WHY?

I just noticed something... I posted a bunch of really informative and useful links and stories here, and they are all being VOTED DOWN!

It just seems unnecessary, I mean, it is only information, and in my view it is EXACTLY fitting to the liberty message, and in line with Ron Paul's competing currency ideas.

So who is doing all the down voting of bitcoin related articles??

Any ideas?

-- maybe I don't quite see how this site works --

Dear Michael (Nystrom), it sure would be nice if we could see all the voting activity, not only the final vote count. It would make it more interesting to sort posts according to "activity"

here are my recent posts:

Expatriating from the United States? Consider this!

Wikipedia Accepts 'Enemies Of The Internet' Currencies

Why Bitcoin Acceptance Should Be A Litmus Test Of Liberty Proponents

The future of Bitcoin: new applications and rebuilding the banking system

Why do I bother trying to EDUCATE here about BITCOIN?

Gold vs Bitcoin

Here are other people's (GREAT) posts about Bitcoin:

Allten's Bitcoin Thread

Bitcoin Report Vol 26 with BrotherJohnF VIDEO

Adam Kokesh: What is Bitcoin and Why is it Important

Gold, Silver and Bitcoin: The ultimate interview by VisionVictory

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Guess whatever you wish

I am not the type that gets easily offended.

I don't have a problem with bitcoin as an alternative currency. I would much like to see the dollar replaced with something.
My problems at this point are;
1: obtaining bitcoins.
2: acceptance.

As far as obtaining bitcoins, I hate to say it but my dollars have more value to me at this point. My mortgage, gas, food etc. Why trade dollars for bitcoins?
I am interested in mining though. I like the idea of having my computers generate potential income.

Acceptance is obvious. Like I stated, the things I need to live at this time can't be bought with bitcoins, or even gold for that matter. Very sad indeed.

The difference with gold is that I can easily trade gold for any accepted currency anywhere I want. At least right now.

Guess what

I have dirty fiat dollars in my wallet right now too. I bet 99% of all Daily Paul users still have some dollars. It's because that is what the current situation demands.

Of course, we don't expect that to always be the case. One day the dollar will crash and/or the people will successfully "end the Fed"

In the meantime, people use dollars.

Does that mean I can't and shouldn't ALSO hold, use and promote Bitcoin?

Of course not. And one day Bitcoin may be used more widely, just as one day fiat dollars may NOT.

And you can currently trade Bitcoin for different fiat currencies around the globe.


I want to hold Bitcoin. I just don't want to give up dollars to do it.
That's why I'll attempt to do some mining.
I never said anyone shouldn't hold Bitcoin.

I hope to see an end to the Fed in my lifetime. If Bitcoin becomes the replacement to the dollar, so be it.

Right now if I was forced to give up all my dollars for Bitcoin or gold, I pick gold.

Another problem for me, I oppose any world currency. Bitcoin seems too easy to be corrupted by a world bank.



Bitcoin is an alternative

Bitcoin is an alternative currency. Its primary advantage is its ability to be traded outside of government. Those alone are two awesome factors in its favor. But Bitcoin is not without detriments as well.

While we all support the right to alternative currencies, that does not mean one must adopt and promote any particular alternative currency. One can be in favor of the right to alternative currency but still oppose or favor any particular currency. Just as we all promote free market competition, l that does not mean we must adopt or promote every product on the market. Free marketers can still like or dislike individual products that the market brings. Likewise open currency advocates can like or dislike Bitcoin for a variety of reason. It is also akin to free speech. While we all support free speech, that does not mean we must adopt and promote everything anyone says.

Bitcoin has both benefits and drawbacks. Open currency advocates can rightly choose to promote it, oppose it or ignore as they wish. People can choose to jump on the Bitcoin bandwagon wholeheartedly, or eject it outright, or chose to use it to some degree as a supplemental form of currency in addition to government fiat, gold, silver, barter or other methods.

Some of the drawbacks to Bitcoin are:

1. Bitcoin is a centrally planned/controlled currency. It is centrally planned and controlled by the algorithm of its programmers. The maximum quantity of Bitcoins is artificially controlled in its algorithm by the central planning of its programmers. The rate of new Bitcoins created is also artificially controlled in its algorithm by the central planning of its programmers. While the controls built in to Bitcoin are more fixed than those of the Federal Reserve, they are nevertheless artificially fixed into the algorithm by the central control and al planning of its programmers

2. Bitcoin’s roll out is a form of a pyramid scheme. Bitcoins are created “mined” by using up computer processing power. The algorithm set the amount of CPU power that must be used as very low in the beginning and greatly increasing with each additional Bitcoin created (“mined”). This means that an elite inside group consisting of the creator and friends got to generate many Bitcoins quickly and easily for very little CPU processing power. All those outside that elite inner circle therefore to gain Bitcoins must either devote vast amount of CU power and time to generate a Bitcoin, or trade standard currency or goods or services in exchange. In other words the elite inner circle got larger quantities of Bitcoins without producing any goods or servies or even devoting large quantities of CPU processing time relative to everyone else. Thus if early adopters (the tip of the pyramid) can convince others to jump on the Bitcoin pyramid they can exchange their basket of Bitcoins (which they generated without producing or trading for goods or services) to others in exchange for real goods or services.

3. Bitcoin generation is non-productive. Bitcoins are generate merely by burning of CPU time. To generate Bitcoin one must turn computers on and have them burn through CPU processing. It is akin simply putting your car on blocks and revving the engine for as fast and long as you can. While that does burn fuel, it doesn’t take you anywhere. It is not productive. While that method is meant to be an artificial simulation of mining “sim-mining.” It is not mining. It is non-productive . It is not the same as mining. No actual physical commodities (gold, silver, copper, iron, nickel, rare earths, etc.) is mined and can be used. Nothing is extracted, refined and purified. No coins are minted. Rather an engine is simply revved without any production of goods.

4. The method of production of Bitcoins fixed by the central plan of its programmers is vastly skewed distortion in favor of those who have access to high-end computing power. That is a miniscule segment of the world population, and the generation of Bitcoins has absolutely nothing to do with actual productive capacity. All one needs is simply access to high power processing.

5. Lastly the issues that potentially go along with Bitcoin being an all-digital cashless currency has also been thoroughly discussed throughout the repeated Bitcoin threads. Namely the potential for: hacking Bitcoin wallets, hacking the Bitcoin program, hacking and reprogramming the algorithm to generate fake/”counterfeit” additional Bitcoins, data corruption, data loss, electric grid dependency, internet access dependency, digital computer dependency , etc.

Thus, Bitcoin has both benefits and drawbacks. People are free and correct to use it, reject it, promote, oppose it as they see fit.

I am not a fan of its current generating method and the skewed pyramid like scheme that placed relatively quickly and easily large Bitcoin deposits for early group of insider elite. Nevertheless I still applaud the creation of Bitcoin as an alternative currency. It has great usage potential. The more methods and alternatives for trade and currency outside of central banking and government controlled fiat, the better. Bitcoin opens the door and offers one possibility. I hope more and varied choices arise.

Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl

Answering your points...

1. Bitcoin is a centrally planned/controlled currency.

That is only HALF true. Bitcoin was centrally planned, yes, but it is NOT centrally controlled. Let me explain the difference which is HUGE. Someone (or some people) had the idea for Bitcoin. All we know is some person going by the name Satoshi Nakamoto is supposedly that person. What Nakamoto did is explain the system of how the currency could work in a decentralized way and have value. That's the EXTENT of his power. He CAN'T do ANYTHING ELSE, like give the coins value, change how many there are, or even stop the Bitcoin project now. NOBODY can. It's now totally supported by the free market. If the rules governing it change (like how many coins there are) the rest of the network that uses it (for example including me) REJECT the changes as invalid.

Got it? Not even the supposed creator of Bitcoin can change/control it now, let alone any programmers continuing to work on the core network software.

2. Bitcoin’s roll out is a form of a pyramid scheme.

So is the roll out of any money supply, like dollars for instance. In 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for less than a dollar, or a car for less than a few hundred dollars, or a house for a few thousand dollars. Or gold for less than $100 per ounce. If you held on to these things over the years their value has AUTOMATICALLY increased versus people purchasing them today. People getting dollars earlier got higher value than people getting them later.

The creator and people in at the very beginning of Bitcoin could NOT take the majority of all bitcoins. That's because bitcoins are SET to come into existence in a controlled way over time loosely following a predetermined schedule. You can't mine more of them faster than the schedule, no matter what point you come into Bitcoin at. Also, in the very early stages bitcoins were worth a few pennies per coin. Some people sold them at that rate. And one person famously bought a pizza for about 10,000 bitcoins which at today's prices would be worth about $120,000.

Believe it or not NOW is STILL considered a very EARLY time to get involved with Bitcoin. If you buy them now at $10-12 people could say the same about YOU if and when they reach hundreds to thousands of dollars per coin.

3. Bitcoin generation is non-productive.

Bitcoin mining provides the key function of securing the Bitcoin network. However, the heat generated from CPUs/GPUs on mining rigs have also been used to heat the houses of miners living in cold climates (yes they have that much computing equipment).

4. The method of production of Bitcoins fixed by the central plan of its programmers is vastly skewed distortion in favor of those who have access to high-end computing power.

That's like saying finding gold is vastly skewed in favor of anybody with access to budgeting for lots of the most effecting mining equipment. Anybody can mine bitcoins with computers, just as anybody can go look to mine gold. Yes, the more resources you have to put toward it the more successful you will be.

5. Lastly the issues that potentially go along with Bitcoin:

a) hacking Bitcoin wallets

- you can't hack bitcoin wallets anymore than you can hack a credit card number. If someone leaves their bank info, password, bitcoin wallet, etc. on a computer infected with viruses leaving them vulnerable then that is the same in all cases. There are secure methods (like encryption) for protecting bitcoins against that however.

b) hacking the Bitcoin program

- you obviously don't know what you're talking about here. You need to be an expert in mathematics and cryptography in order to.

c) hacking the Bitcoin program, hacking and reprogramming the algorithm to generate fake/”counterfeit” additional bitcoins

- same as above

d) data corruption, data loss, electric grid dependency, internet access dependency, digital computer dependency , etc

- these topics have all been answered various places on the Internet

That's a brilliant assessment!

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with it yet, but I also don't entirely disagree with it. Still thinking about it.

We have to compare it with actual mining, don't we? Mining produced the supply of currency before the fed.

Was mining productive? In one sense yes. It produced millions of jobs, from the hands on miners, to the people making and selling pick-axes to the people building apartments in new towns near the mines, to grocers, bankers, schoolteachers, etc. Not unlike what's starting in North Dakota right now as a result of Bakken oil and gas.

But is moving dirt "productive" in a macro sense? Is producing the raw inputs for currency "productive" when you can just as easily print on cheap paper without ruining the environment and "wasting" so many resources mining?

How, with this in mind is bitcoin mining any different than actual mining was before the fed?

Again, I do not have the answers. Personally, I dont think anyone does yet, for or against bit coins.

But I do think we need to think through the questions like I have raised and have PRODUCTIVE DISCUSSION not bop over the head sessions.

You seem to know enough to see the TRUTH

I just want to make a quick comment here for those who stumble on your post, you are really deceptive in your wording and completely FALSE in all your points.

Why are you doing this?

If no one responds to your post, I will clarify each point one at a time later (I am going to bed... I am not paid, I am human, and though the excitement of posting here has kept me up, I bid you good night)

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

Completely false in all points?

I'd like to see your assessment.

I can't imagine

why anyone would downvote a bitcoin post. As for the bitcoins themselves, I appreciate the information, personally, and have investigated them on a somewhat superficial level, but my eyes quickly glaze over and I find the whole enterprise too confusing. I guess I'll wait until it's as easy to use as Paypal or Mastercard before jumping in there.

That's a great idea.

I am also confused by all the negative votes... oh, well... we'll see how this will change in time.

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

New posts

I keep updating my list of posts... please check them out and comment!

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

Updating my "thread" gets me -4 votes

What the heck am I doing wrong. I am so confused!

I am focusing on this one "thread" here, and... a suggestion to see the "update" gets down voted 4x!?

Can you downvoters please explain?

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

Stop self-promoting your thread.

Let "the market" dispose of your thread as it will, for better or worse.

If you think it's for the worse, you might want to do some self-introspection as you might be on the trail of a loser no matter how you feel about it.

five requirements of money

1)universally recognized
5)hard to duplicate (counterfeit)

Gold and other PMs on the table of periodic elements meet these requirements.

Bitcoin falls short on #1,4 and 5. perhaps with time it will improve on #1.

It is not durable,Gold is Gold whether the lights are on or not. Silver is Silver whether you are on the bottom of the ocean or on the moon. Bitcoin needs some computing power and electricity for it to work.

Duplication, yes it has crazy encryption and all that, but there are people who can hack into the Pentagon. So it's just a matter of time until somebody can work around it and either outright counterfeit it or con somebody into believing that they have the real deal.

How is #5 a weakness of bitcoin?

It has never been counterfeited. And how do you counterfeit a peer to peer network? #1 is somewhat true, but changing in the favor of bitcoin every day. And its only been around two years, of course its going to take time to gain a user base.

the post is titled "requirements of money"

not weakness of bitcoin...
sorry you see it that way

but just to compare for a moment
bitcoin is two years old you say?
gold was created when the stars were formed.

I'm sticking with gold.

there's no counter party risk, it's in your possession and that's it, you own it outright. Not so with bitcoin.

No counter party risk?

Of course there's counter party risk to owning gold, or any commodity.

And I can own bitcoins on the network outright, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Hold on on #4

Short of a solar flare wiping out ALL electronics on planet earth, I'd argue that multi-nodal internet with fail-over backup servers across the world is QUITE durable.

Bank vaults got robbed of their gold all the time by James Cagney and by Dillinger, right, but people considered vaults very durable?

durable as in, you can jump in a river with it

physical durability.

they could print FRNs on rice paper, but that wouldn't make much sense now would it?


I have had my Bitcoin private key written down in my wallet. The Internet could go down, all electricity could stop. But once it is turned back on, my Bitcoin private key in my wallet will still have the correct amount of Bitcoins when I get back online.

Some people are even engraving their keys inside of welded steel and putting it away in a safe place.

Some have even gone so far as to memorize their key.

If the cops raid your house, will your gold be safe?

If the cops raid my house, they will not find the numbers I have subtly placed in different places that combined make up an address that can then be used to buy goods.

Bitcoin only falls short

Bitcoin only falls short compared to gold on #1, and not by much. The average person wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a gold coin and a gold plated fake without a trip tip Wikipedia at least. Bitcoin cannot be counterfitted, nor hacked. If it could, I wouldn't have anything to do with it. The system is completely different than anything that you have come across before, and it's entirely novel even to professional programmers & cryptologists.

Whether or not bitcoin is durable depends upon wether or not data, replicated in 10 thousand places across the Earth, is durable. For bitcoin to actually survive, only one copy of the blockchain must survive. Bitcoin will outlive nation-states as easily as the clock of the long now.

what happens when the power

what happens when the power grid goes down and you can not access your bitcoin account?

You are misinformed..

What happens to your dollars when the grid goes down and you can not use your credit card?

What happens to your gold when the roads are flooded and you can't get to the bank's vault?

Answer: nothing, in all three cases.

and ATMs are turned off!?!?!


wrong. If you have your

wrong. If you have your dollars in hand, don't build in a flood plain, put your gold and silver in a safe at your own home you have it. I am not misinformed. any type of digital currency is at risk.

By that standard.

Then 98% of all Federal Reserve dollars are at risk since 98% of all US federal reserve dollars *ARE* digital and do not exist in physical form ANYWHERE.

Who voted down my response?

Speak up, coward. Explain yourself. Was there something false in it?

wrong. If you have your

public and private keys printed out that hold your bitcoins you can spend them by sending them to someone who does have access to the internet with a pigeon for all I care.

I really wish you'd make the effort to understand that which you criticize before doing so.

You can't lose your

bitcoins due to power outage.

The way bitcoin works you actually never have them at all. Sounds weird but it's true. Bitcoin is really a distributed ledger system. The history of who (which wallet address) has each coin is tracked from the very beginning of Bitcoin to present. This distributed database (ledger) is called the "block chain" and computers all over the world keep a constantly updated copy of it. As long as you don't lose your private key - a long string of characters which can be printed out and/or backed up - then you can't lose your bitcoins. Even if you don't have a computer (or power) at all.