10 votes

"BITCOIN" posts get no traction here... WHY?

I just noticed something... I posted a bunch of really informative and useful links and stories here, and they are all being VOTED DOWN!

It just seems unnecessary, I mean, it is only information, and in my view it is EXACTLY fitting to the liberty message, and in line with Ron Paul's competing currency ideas.

So who is doing all the down voting of bitcoin related articles??

Any ideas?

-- maybe I don't quite see how this site works --

Dear Michael (Nystrom), it sure would be nice if we could see all the voting activity, not only the final vote count. It would make it more interesting to sort posts according to "activity"

here are my recent posts:

Expatriating from the United States? Consider this!

Wikipedia Accepts 'Enemies Of The Internet' Currencies

Why Bitcoin Acceptance Should Be A Litmus Test Of Liberty Proponents

The future of Bitcoin: new applications and rebuilding the banking system

Why do I bother trying to EDUCATE here about BITCOIN?

Gold vs Bitcoin

Here are other people's (GREAT) posts about Bitcoin:

Allten's Bitcoin Thread

Bitcoin Report Vol 26 with BrotherJohnF VIDEO

Adam Kokesh: What is Bitcoin and Why is it Important

Gold, Silver and Bitcoin: The ultimate interview by VisionVictory



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Bitmit

You do not have to just mine or exchange dollars to get Bitcoins. I have sold things on Bitmit.net to get Bitcoins. It is sort of like ebay but using Bitcoins.

I sold something that I bought for $1 wholesale for 1 Bitcoin when Bitcoins were worth $5 each. So by selling that $1 item, I now have a Bitcoin worth over $12.

I have used Ebay and I much prefer selling things on Bitmit. It is so much smoother.

I agree with PeacefulA...

I hope it means something to you, but I was also in the same boat as you, I didn't want to trade my "dollars" to a digital "nothing" at the beginning (that was back in early 2011).

I was looking into mining, but I only had access to a netbook, so mining provided me with exactly ZERO bitcoins. Oh, at the time they were $0.30 cents, but they just went up to this "ridiculous" high price from the "average" $0.10 a few weeks/months before... So I thought I will mine, if that doesn't work, I will wait for it to fall back down to 10 cents, and I will buy 100 of them...maybe even 1000

I was really really thinking this at the time. OH, of course, I also thought about SELLING my used socks, since this other guy was making so many "useless" bitcoins selling Alpca Socks... well, I didn't figure out how to quickly setup a site to sell my socks from my netbook, so things got put in the back-burner, and I started "researching" and learning, and learning EVERYTHING about it... and of course the price kept going up and up and up ...

Anyhow, I got in late... not too late, but LATE! I am not a millionaire, I did/don't have money to blow like that, that is not why "invested" in the end... I bought bitcoins because I started to REALLY BELIEVE about their POTENTIAL.

I realized that "investing" in bitcoin is not like investing in Apple, or McDonalds or something "profitable" but instead it is putting your money where your heart is, and you support the IDEA that gels with the TRUTH that we all feel as we grow, and learn about the IDEAS of LIBERTY from Ron Paul (predominantly)!

You know what I mean?

Anyhow, it was when my best friend asked me concerned over my "investment" that I realized something important: Okay, you bought these digital bitcoin things, so you got "nothing" for your money, but my question is, where did your money go?

And that is the crucial question I am waiting for people to ask here!

If I buy bitcoins, where does my money go?

Many of us like to say that to get to the bottom of things we have to "follow the money".... well, I know the answer to this, I know that the money is going into the pockets of those guys/gals who have bitcoins to send me. So who are they? Well, they are the early adopters, the geeks, the programmers, the "believers" in a system that can work without manipulation, without a central server, that can be honest, and has the potential to grow enough to FREE HUMANITY from it's current state of slavery, debt, monetary serfdom, whatever you want to call it!

I truly do not believe Gold has that power. Not today, not in the 21st century. Today we need something that is more dynamic, more liquid, more transportable, but just as SECURE in it's ability to not be FAKED!

I hope this helped. It's the TRUTH!

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

WRONG

about where the fiat dollars go.

The fiat dollars being used to buy bitcoins is NOT going to early adopters, programmers, etc., at least not any large majority of it.

There are currently about 10 million bitcoins in existence. NOBODY owns a very large percent of them, like say 50% (5 million) of them because the coins came into existence over time and got bought by various people. These were NOT all the same group of people now all selling coins. MOST coins are sold by MINERS who are able to make a small profit after paying for their equipment and electricity used to produce the bitcoins. Any early adopters or current holders/users of bitcoins probably do exchange in and out of fiat dollars occasionally as the situation suits them, but that is by far not the largest activity happening for the exchange of bitcoins. That remains MINERS selling coins to new people (mostly) coming into bitcoin.

That may be happening NOW, but I was answering to "my friend"

The story I gave was detailing/recounting about what was happening last year, early to mid 2011.

Back then, most everyone involved with Bitcoin was a miner. They had quite a large stash of bitcoins, and they were the ones selling.

Now there are definitely two main groups, the miners (receiving the rewards from the allocation of remaining bitcoins) and others, who are buying/selling... mainly buying their bitcoins for use or speculation.

I am sure/and know for a fact that the eary miners/users of bitcoin used Linux systems, many were compiling their own mining routines, and "hacking" day and night... okay, maybe not day and night... but quite a bit to keep their bitcoin operation going, and up-to-date.

So, I wouldn't say I was "Wrong", perhaps I wasn't clear enough on the time-frame.

I think you are RIGHT for what is going on now.

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

Where did the money go?

If the early adopters are physically destroying those dollars, I could hold them in the same regard you do.
I don't know what they are doing with the dollars they get for bitcoins but they are probably not burning them.

Again I NEED my dollars right now. Thats why mining seems like a better way for me to get bitcoins.

I'll have a mine set up in the next couple weeks.

I also read of people who invest in mines, like buying bonds.
That sounds a bit interesting but I'm not ready to take the plunge yet.

They didn't BURN the money, they USED it!

The dollars the early adopters got from me and others went to paying their bills, buying food, and LIVING while DEVELOPING a great new IDEA!

Remember, remember the 5th of November!(?)

..i mean the donation drive event... well it was/is kinda like that, all the work that needs/needed to be done to develop bitcoin needed hours and hours of programming by a bunch of programmer, and entrepreneurs. They got their BOOST of financing when Bitcoin shot up to $30!

Basically, if they sold at that time, even a small portion of their holdings, they could have freed themselves enough to devote 100% of their time and energy to develop more Bitcoin tools... it is genious the way the system was setup to help SELF SUSTAIN and DEVELOP without any central "investor" or "financier". It grew organically, and it still is!

That is one of the beautiful aspects of the whole thing...for me!

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

I understand that startups need money.

What are they doing with those dollars now?
Why can't they live on their bitcoins?
How can bitcoin replace FRNs if dollars are still required?
Now bitcoin is at about $12.60.
I want 100 bitcoins.
If I spend the $1260, I get 100 bitcoins that I can't use to pay bills or fix my house. They are NOT as valuable to me as dollars!

Now people are being talked out of mining in favor of buying bitcoins, due to the costs of mining.
In my case I can run a mine very cheap from my solar arrays.

I can only see bitcoin as an investment. Buy bitcoins cheap, once/if they appreciate, sell them to someone for something tangible.
Even then it depends on how many people are waiting to buy bitcoins.

I still want them to burn all the dollars they receive for bitcoins.

This project is still in it's youth...though growing FAST!

You have to see what is happening overall, out of nothing, a whole new monetary system is being developed.

People tend to compare the development and adoption of the EURO in Europe, it took about 10 years (I've heard)... and that used Billions of dollars worth of resources, or so.

Bitcoin being where it is in only 4 years. Pretty good! Oh, and ZERO cost to "society" as all the costs to date have been paid for interested, self-driven INDIVIDUALS and their sweat equity!

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

My guess is that you haven't really looked into it

First, Dont get offended. I'm not trying to be insulting. I had your same attitude. lazily looked into bitcoin and came to the conclusion that it was just some fad. When it didn't go away and more people kept on talking about it, I spent a weekend researching every aspect about it. My conclusion is that Bitcoins is absolutely ingenious and if this ever gets traction it would be detrimental to the powers at be. This is a very viable alternative to FRN's. As a pro-liberty minded individual I must advocate and use Bitcoins. It is such a simple thing to do that can have such a great Impact on furthering the cause of Liberty. I'm not saying Bitcoins is the answer to all our woes but this is definitely a revolutionary spark. It is the Modern day Tea Party resistance to Autocratic rule. Just by participating in it you are doing such a great service to Liberty!

Guess whatever you wish

I am not the type that gets easily offended.

I don't have a problem with bitcoin as an alternative currency. I would much like to see the dollar replaced with something.
My problems at this point are;
1: obtaining bitcoins.
2: acceptance.

As far as obtaining bitcoins, I hate to say it but my dollars have more value to me at this point. My mortgage, gas, food etc. Why trade dollars for bitcoins?
I am interested in mining though. I like the idea of having my computers generate potential income.

Acceptance is obvious. Like I stated, the things I need to live at this time can't be bought with bitcoins, or even gold for that matter. Very sad indeed.

The difference with gold is that I can easily trade gold for any accepted currency anywhere I want. At least right now.

Guess what

I have dirty fiat dollars in my wallet right now too. I bet 99% of all Daily Paul users still have some dollars. It's because that is what the current situation demands.

Of course, we don't expect that to always be the case. One day the dollar will crash and/or the people will successfully "end the Fed"

In the meantime, people use dollars.

Does that mean I can't and shouldn't ALSO hold, use and promote Bitcoin?

Of course not. And one day Bitcoin may be used more widely, just as one day fiat dollars may NOT.

And you can currently trade Bitcoin for different fiat currencies around the globe.

certainly.

I want to hold Bitcoin. I just don't want to give up dollars to do it.
That's why I'll attempt to do some mining.
I never said anyone shouldn't hold Bitcoin.

I hope to see an end to the Fed in my lifetime. If Bitcoin becomes the replacement to the dollar, so be it.

Right now if I was forced to give up all my dollars for Bitcoin or gold, I pick gold.

Another problem for me, I oppose any world currency. Bitcoin seems too easy to be corrupted by a world bank.

Certainly.

EDIT: DUPLICATE MESS!!!! Delete ME

Bitcoin is an alternative

Bitcoin is an alternative currency. Its primary advantage is its ability to be traded outside of government. Those alone are two awesome factors in its favor. But Bitcoin is not without detriments as well.

While we all support the right to alternative currencies, that does not mean one must adopt and promote any particular alternative currency. One can be in favor of the right to alternative currency but still oppose or favor any particular currency. Just as we all promote free market competition, l that does not mean we must adopt or promote every product on the market. Free marketers can still like or dislike individual products that the market brings. Likewise open currency advocates can like or dislike Bitcoin for a variety of reason. It is also akin to free speech. While we all support free speech, that does not mean we must adopt and promote everything anyone says.

Bitcoin has both benefits and drawbacks. Open currency advocates can rightly choose to promote it, oppose it or ignore as they wish. People can choose to jump on the Bitcoin bandwagon wholeheartedly, or eject it outright, or chose to use it to some degree as a supplemental form of currency in addition to government fiat, gold, silver, barter or other methods.

Some of the drawbacks to Bitcoin are:

1. Bitcoin is a centrally planned/controlled currency. It is centrally planned and controlled by the algorithm of its programmers. The maximum quantity of Bitcoins is artificially controlled in its algorithm by the central planning of its programmers. The rate of new Bitcoins created is also artificially controlled in its algorithm by the central planning of its programmers. While the controls built in to Bitcoin are more fixed than those of the Federal Reserve, they are nevertheless artificially fixed into the algorithm by the central control and al planning of its programmers

2. Bitcoin’s roll out is a form of a pyramid scheme. Bitcoins are created “mined” by using up computer processing power. The algorithm set the amount of CPU power that must be used as very low in the beginning and greatly increasing with each additional Bitcoin created (“mined”). This means that an elite inside group consisting of the creator and friends got to generate many Bitcoins quickly and easily for very little CPU processing power. All those outside that elite inner circle therefore to gain Bitcoins must either devote vast amount of CU power and time to generate a Bitcoin, or trade standard currency or goods or services in exchange. In other words the elite inner circle got larger quantities of Bitcoins without producing any goods or servies or even devoting large quantities of CPU processing time relative to everyone else. Thus if early adopters (the tip of the pyramid) can convince others to jump on the Bitcoin pyramid they can exchange their basket of Bitcoins (which they generated without producing or trading for goods or services) to others in exchange for real goods or services.

3. Bitcoin generation is non-productive. Bitcoins are generate merely by burning of CPU time. To generate Bitcoin one must turn computers on and have them burn through CPU processing. It is akin simply putting your car on blocks and revving the engine for as fast and long as you can. While that does burn fuel, it doesn’t take you anywhere. It is not productive. While that method is meant to be an artificial simulation of mining “sim-mining.” It is not mining. It is non-productive . It is not the same as mining. No actual physical commodities (gold, silver, copper, iron, nickel, rare earths, etc.) is mined and can be used. Nothing is extracted, refined and purified. No coins are minted. Rather an engine is simply revved without any production of goods.

4. The method of production of Bitcoins fixed by the central plan of its programmers is vastly skewed distortion in favor of those who have access to high-end computing power. That is a miniscule segment of the world population, and the generation of Bitcoins has absolutely nothing to do with actual productive capacity. All one needs is simply access to high power processing.

5. Lastly the issues that potentially go along with Bitcoin being an all-digital cashless currency has also been thoroughly discussed throughout the repeated Bitcoin threads. Namely the potential for: hacking Bitcoin wallets, hacking the Bitcoin program, hacking and reprogramming the algorithm to generate fake/”counterfeit” additional Bitcoins, data corruption, data loss, electric grid dependency, internet access dependency, digital computer dependency , etc.

Thus, Bitcoin has both benefits and drawbacks. People are free and correct to use it, reject it, promote, oppose it as they see fit.

I am not a fan of its current generating method and the skewed pyramid like scheme that placed relatively quickly and easily large Bitcoin deposits for early group of insider elite. Nevertheless I still applaud the creation of Bitcoin as an alternative currency. It has great usage potential. The more methods and alternatives for trade and currency outside of central banking and government controlled fiat, the better. Bitcoin opens the door and offers one possibility. I hope more and varied choices arise.

Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl

Answering your points...

1. Bitcoin is a centrally planned/controlled currency.

That is only HALF true. Bitcoin was centrally planned, yes, but it is NOT centrally controlled. Let me explain the difference which is HUGE. Someone (or some people) had the idea for Bitcoin. All we know is some person going by the name Satoshi Nakamoto is supposedly that person. What Nakamoto did is explain the system of how the currency could work in a decentralized way and have value. That's the EXTENT of his power. He CAN'T do ANYTHING ELSE, like give the coins value, change how many there are, or even stop the Bitcoin project now. NOBODY can. It's now totally supported by the free market. If the rules governing it change (like how many coins there are) the rest of the network that uses it (for example including me) REJECT the changes as invalid.

Got it? Not even the supposed creator of Bitcoin can change/control it now, let alone any programmers continuing to work on the core network software.

2. Bitcoin’s roll out is a form of a pyramid scheme.

So is the roll out of any money supply, like dollars for instance. In 1920 you could buy a gallon of gas for less than a dollar, or a car for less than a few hundred dollars, or a house for a few thousand dollars. Or gold for less than $100 per ounce. If you held on to these things over the years their value has AUTOMATICALLY increased versus people purchasing them today. People getting dollars earlier got higher value than people getting them later.

The creator and people in at the very beginning of Bitcoin could NOT take the majority of all bitcoins. That's because bitcoins are SET to come into existence in a controlled way over time loosely following a predetermined schedule. You can't mine more of them faster than the schedule, no matter what point you come into Bitcoin at. Also, in the very early stages bitcoins were worth a few pennies per coin. Some people sold them at that rate. And one person famously bought a pizza for about 10,000 bitcoins which at today's prices would be worth about $120,000.

Believe it or not NOW is STILL considered a very EARLY time to get involved with Bitcoin. If you buy them now at $10-12 people could say the same about YOU if and when they reach hundreds to thousands of dollars per coin.

3. Bitcoin generation is non-productive.

Bitcoin mining provides the key function of securing the Bitcoin network. However, the heat generated from CPUs/GPUs on mining rigs have also been used to heat the houses of miners living in cold climates (yes they have that much computing equipment).

4. The method of production of Bitcoins fixed by the central plan of its programmers is vastly skewed distortion in favor of those who have access to high-end computing power.

That's like saying finding gold is vastly skewed in favor of anybody with access to budgeting for lots of the most effecting mining equipment. Anybody can mine bitcoins with computers, just as anybody can go look to mine gold. Yes, the more resources you have to put toward it the more successful you will be.

5. Lastly the issues that potentially go along with Bitcoin:

a) hacking Bitcoin wallets

- you can't hack bitcoin wallets anymore than you can hack a credit card number. If someone leaves their bank info, password, bitcoin wallet, etc. on a computer infected with viruses leaving them vulnerable then that is the same in all cases. There are secure methods (like encryption) for protecting bitcoins against that however.

b) hacking the Bitcoin program

- you obviously don't know what you're talking about here. You need to be an expert in mathematics and cryptography in order to.

c) hacking the Bitcoin program, hacking and reprogramming the algorithm to generate fake/”counterfeit” additional bitcoins

- same as above

d) data corruption, data loss, electric grid dependency, internet access dependency, digital computer dependency , etc

- these topics have all been answered various places on the Internet

That's a brilliant assessment!

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with it yet, but I also don't entirely disagree with it. Still thinking about it.

We have to compare it with actual mining, don't we? Mining produced the supply of currency before the fed.

Was mining productive? In one sense yes. It produced millions of jobs, from the hands on miners, to the people making and selling pick-axes to the people building apartments in new towns near the mines, to grocers, bankers, schoolteachers, etc. Not unlike what's starting in North Dakota right now as a result of Bakken oil and gas.

But is moving dirt "productive" in a macro sense? Is producing the raw inputs for currency "productive" when you can just as easily print on cheap paper without ruining the environment and "wasting" so many resources mining?

How, with this in mind is bitcoin mining any different than actual mining was before the fed?

Again, I do not have the answers. Personally, I dont think anyone does yet, for or against bit coins.

But I do think we need to think through the questions like I have raised and have PRODUCTIVE DISCUSSION not bop over the head sessions.

You seem to know enough to see the TRUTH

I just want to make a quick comment here for those who stumble on your post, you are really deceptive in your wording and completely FALSE in all your points.

Why are you doing this?

If no one responds to your post, I will clarify each point one at a time later (I am going to bed... I am not paid, I am human, and though the excitement of posting here has kept me up, I bid you good night)

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

Completely false in all points?

I'd like to see your assessment.

I can't imagine

why anyone would downvote a bitcoin post. As for the bitcoins themselves, I appreciate the information, personally, and have investigated them on a somewhat superficial level, but my eyes quickly glaze over and I find the whole enterprise too confusing. I guess I'll wait until it's as easy to use as Paypal or Mastercard before jumping in there.

That's a great idea.

I am also confused by all the negative votes... oh, well... we'll see how this will change in time.

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

New posts

I keep updating my list of posts... please check them out and comment!

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

Updating my "thread" gets me -4 votes

What the heck am I doing wrong. I am so confused!

I am focusing on this one "thread" here, and... a suggestion to see the "update" gets down voted 4x!?

Can you downvoters please explain?

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

Stop self-promoting your thread.

Let "the market" dispose of your thread as it will, for better or worse.

If you think it's for the worse, you might want to do some self-introspection as you might be on the trail of a loser no matter how you feel about it.

five requirements of money

1)universally recognized
2)transportable
3)divisible
4)durable
5)hard to duplicate (counterfeit)

Gold and other PMs on the table of periodic elements meet these requirements.

Bitcoin falls short on #1,4 and 5. perhaps with time it will improve on #1.

It is not durable,Gold is Gold whether the lights are on or not. Silver is Silver whether you are on the bottom of the ocean or on the moon. Bitcoin needs some computing power and electricity for it to work.

Duplication, yes it has crazy encryption and all that, but there are people who can hack into the Pentagon. So it's just a matter of time until somebody can work around it and either outright counterfeit it or con somebody into believing that they have the real deal.

How is #5 a weakness of bitcoin?

It has never been counterfeited. And how do you counterfeit a peer to peer network? #1 is somewhat true, but changing in the favor of bitcoin every day. And its only been around two years, of course its going to take time to gain a user base.

the post is titled "requirements of money"

not weakness of bitcoin...
sorry you see it that way

but just to compare for a moment
bitcoin is two years old you say?
gold was created when the stars were formed.

I'm sticking with gold.

there's no counter party risk, it's in your possession and that's it, you own it outright. Not so with bitcoin.

No counter party risk?

Of course there's counter party risk to owning gold, or any commodity.

And I can own bitcoins on the network outright, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Hold on on #4

Short of a solar flare wiping out ALL electronics on planet earth, I'd argue that multi-nodal internet with fail-over backup servers across the world is QUITE durable.

Bank vaults got robbed of their gold all the time by James Cagney and by Dillinger, right, but people considered vaults very durable?

durable as in, you can jump in a river with it

physical durability.

they could print FRNs on rice paper, but that wouldn't make much sense now would it?

Durable

I have had my Bitcoin private key written down in my wallet. The Internet could go down, all electricity could stop. But once it is turned back on, my Bitcoin private key in my wallet will still have the correct amount of Bitcoins when I get back online.

Some people are even engraving their keys inside of welded steel and putting it away in a safe place.

Some have even gone so far as to memorize their key.

If the cops raid your house, will your gold be safe?

If the cops raid my house, they will not find the numbers I have subtly placed in different places that combined make up an address that can then be used to buy goods.