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Land Ownership Rights, Property Rights: What are your thoughts?

How do you define property rights?

Do you believe in our current model of the state administering land ownership and titles?

Most libertarians believe in 'property rights', but how does land fit into your property rights theory?

I believe in the homestead principle which asserts that one has rights to unowned land by productive use:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_principle
(Wiki has thoughts from: Locke, Rothbard, de Jasay, Hoppe. It seems most libertarians agree on the homestead principle)

Actually the Homestead Act of 1862 was based on this principle according to Wiki. (Note: I think the Occupy Movement should have taken this approach in protest against state ownership of unused land. I also agree with Benjamin Tucker who believed that the 1)money monopoly, 2)land monopoly, 3) tariffs, 4) patents were detrimental to average Americans)

Anyways what are your thoughts? I'm very curious to know.

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This is an interesting subject

how to fund government in a way that doesn't interfere with Liberty?

you have the user pays kind of stuff like gas taxes for roads. that makes some sense. although your gas for the lawnmower or generator is not related to the use of the road, so it isn't perfect

should government really be the provider of other things like fire departments and schools? They weren't in the past, no reason we have to today. So private contracts with these institutions would not need a tax to pay for them, just an agreed monthly fee (if you want these services)

Courts are nomally paid by court fees for trials and such.

How about police departments? They have mostly been government functions. Some private ones exist. Again a possible contractual arrangement. But what do you do if you don't contract? Self defense? This is a tough one for me. Unlike a fire department which doesn't normally deal with criminals, the police/sherriff are charged with apprehending people who are accused of a crime regardless of the victim. So how to pay for something like this?

That's pretty much it for essential government functions beyond paying the elected officials and the other parasites.

If not through a property tax which relates to the community these functions are limited and is voted on by that community, how else would be an appropriate means to fund government?

I really don't like the idea of using property values as a measuring stick for taxes. I would prefer using the size/area of the property to be more fair.

Good Will Hunting: Will (Matt Damon) Cited Free Property Rights

of Horse and Carriage 1798....case of grand theft auto thrown out .. is this a real case? Maybe a case about use of abandoned property?

There are a couple other gems as well:
http://vimeo.com/33093885

..."precedent since 1789 whereby a defendant can claim defense against an agent of the government if that act is deemed a defense of tyranny, a defense of liberty"....

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

Property rights are a very

Property rights are a very interesting subject. Imagine how America could have been if the first European settlers in American would have had respect for the equal rights of the original inhabitants. In terms of Natural Law, I think property rights could be narrowed down to having "sway" - To exert influence on or control over - the land. This would limit ones ability to just claim whatever they walk on or see. Sway could be shown in different ways. The most fundamental way is physically inhabiting the land, and another way would be farming. You would prove your ownership by the evidence of your influence (property "lines" would be a natural result). A person's ownership would be limited only by their ability to inhabit the land or money to buy it from someone who did. Those who did not have the money or ability to inhabit raw land could make mutually beneficial labor agreements with those who had already established their property rights. Labor agreements could lead to a grant of "ownership" of a piece of land as an exchange from the original owner.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
Thomas Jefferson

I generally agree..

.. similar to productive use and homestead principles...

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

Let's look a property taxes

Let's look a property taxes from a different point of view.

There are some fundamental corollaries to one's Right to Life, and among them is the right to shelter - which is part of the Right to Self Defense and Self Protection.

Now What does it say about the moral nature of a people who, through operation of law, place everyone's basic right to shelter themselves and their families in jeopardy by threatening to take it away unless some act is performed, or duty payed? Who would threaten their neighbor so? What moral man would comply with this?

I wish only to associate with moral men and expose everyone else as the frauds that they are.

~ Engage in the war of attrition: http://pacalliance.us/redamendment/

Friend or foe?

A vital chore can be difficult in a tangled web of deceit.

Joe

personally, i believe you

personally, i believe you can't "own" land in the philosophical sense. but you can claim it as your property. also, if you pay taxes on land, you don't own it, you rent it. so really, nobody owns land in the usa except for the government.

Plank #1 of the Communist

Plank #1 of the Communist Manifesto. ~ 1848 (Curious how it's right before the so called "Civil War")

Read them all and discover that we are all communists now:
http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html

~ Engage in the war of attrition: http://pacalliance.us/redamendment/

correction

no one but the FED.

I think selfishness has a lot

I think selfishness has a lot to do with determining who owns what. When someone wants something they go out and get it. Once they claim something that was previously unowned then who is to say that it isn't theirs? Who would have a right to question their ownership of it if no one owned it before that?

I think Geo-libertarian could be a good way to go.

Placing taxes on land not on income or consuption would be not ideal put preferable to me than taxing productive efforts. It wouldn't affect supply of land and would be a lot less of a burden on the economy. It would also control speculative real estate bubbles...

As for homesteading a LVT would make unused land a liability not an investment so land would have to be used productively or become common land. Where as property taxes, tax the productive use of land. When land gains real value it's not due to any productive input or wise management but due to the labour of those around it building businesses. job opportunities, amenities, communities. Or it's not increase real value but inflationary, or speculative bubbles ect.

I think there's a point in that humans did not make the earth just claimed it, governments came in stole it and divided it as they saw fit. Now people are born into a world where all the land is claimed, I think a LVT would help people earn a chunk of land of their own by bringing down prices via making unproductive land ownership a liability. Not to mention restraining the government financially.

That may be agreeable to many Libertarians and minarchists...

But as an anarcho-capitalist I would not want any taxes on anything. The idea that taxes are theft remains the same whether it's income, property and even indirect sales tax. Relatively speaking, LVT may be preferable to income taxes, but with the homestead principle sovereign individuals would make productive use of the land and truly be free.

I follow more of the Austrian school of economics compared to Henry George. I vaguely remember George claiming that land value was based on the arbitrary location of government and its infrastructure. Although that is partly true, resources such as water, fertile soil, trees, oil, minerals etc are just as important in land values and the primary drivers of settlement.

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

I'm way more Austrian school than anything else

More Misesian than Rothbardian though. However I'm resigned to the fact that taxes wont disappear all at once... I'm open to An-cap on a small scale While I like the idea of competing legal systems, I do think laws regarding acts of aggression aught not be a voluntary matter. Besides I don't think states and their populations can or will become An-cap. So I'm in favour of what ever tax policy offers the most freedom.

Yeah George said and a lot what of Geo-libs say I totally disagree with, George was more socialistic in favour of advancing material needs more so than liberty...

I'd say it was more things in the locality put there by the market that drives up land prices but locality to train stations, subways, schools can have an effect but I'd rather public money didn't pay for those being more of a Minarchist. But if public money does fund it as it will no matter what I say. I think it would be better that it be funded by the increase in house prices such amenities cause, than taxed from the productive efforts of people on the other side of the country...

Yet I've given up on my nation really, at least you Americans have a chance. This might be out-there but my self I think the best chance for liberty, is escaping statehood and building small communities on the seas, an-cap and micro nations...

Where are you from?

I'm looking to set up a non-profit 501c3 to buy some land and start up a small community. 501c3's aren't required to pay property taxes in most states from what I understand. I have to raise a lot of money and research zoning restrictions here in California. I may also try to find donors that have land too because farmland is more expensive here. We'll see what happens.

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

I'm from the UK

South West England to be more precise. Good luck with you're plan, sound like a good one but I would be worried the state could just change tax rules ect... I want to be free from being governed from above for good.

With regard to my sea community dream here's one idea I've come up with these , they can be brought for as little as $70 a piece. They are pneumatic fenders for shipping each one as long as 20ft at that price not even bulk order and can be found larger and smaller. They are designed to withstand massive forces, hard to penetrate but filled with will closed cell foam even if they do. Chained together like in the picture you could have the floating material to build a platform 40 foot by 80ft for as little as $1000. One large platform would be liable to break with waves but one hard surface over each rubber fender or pairs, perhaps with flexible material in-between would allow the structure to move with the waves. Calm seas would be needed and possible storm shelter too... Hopefully crops could be grown in green houses.

What do you think? I'm looking to publicise the idea maybe set up a Youtube account. Explore other peoples, ideas potential problems solutions gain from their knowledge expertise ect.

I like the idea

Just like the seasteading projects around here:
http://www.seasteading.org/

I hope these projects succeed and there is great potential. The only issue I see with sea projects compared to land is that it is more difficult to be sustainable on the sea. You need more power to grow food and get drinking water.

I prefer finding land with good water resources. Anyways good luck and keep me up to date with your progress.

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

I like the waterworld idea

Just curious how much weight can these fenders support per square foot or yard/meter before they start to submerge?

Which came first, the mouth or the rectum?

I've done some estimates.

They float very high in the water in all the pictures I've seen.

This tells me it takes displacing a lot of water to sink one, with their volume being say between 25,000 and 30,000 litres. Lets be conservative and er on the there side of caution and imagine they had a volume of 20,000 litres and lets pretend they stand at 1/4 submerged. That would require 15,000 litres of water be displaced for it to sink. Or 15 metric tons, equal to 16.5 U.S tons. Each.

So that ten fender set up could, if my calculations are correct and that was the only limitation, support 165 tons... I think I'd be more worried about the strength of the platform than the buoyancy. I'd imagine the most well constructed would have broken long before 100 tons....

thanks for the info

I would think that a medium to heavy weight steel-truss frame or heavy timber platform attached (maybe series of wide rubber belts looping around) on each fender for support would seem like it could work, or not. Then you could build pretty much "anything" you want on top.

I could imagine building a homestead on this; with topsoil, garden, chickens, solar/wind power and solar distiller and low-profile masts.

The logistics of being "sovereign" might be an issue though, unless you live in the high seas all the time.

If only I don't get sea-sick.

Which came first, the mouth or the rectum?

.

.

Yeah like that but I've been trying to think of more affordable

methods, the PayPal founders haven't started yet also the competition for a spot on one of those rigs would be huge...

I've been trying to think of a more affordable way, where we average people could make our own flotilla's live independently. But join them up with people we would like to have as neighbours live by agreed rules, or agree to live by none ect. Preferable in calm sea's and good weather.

I've come up with these , they can be brought for as little as $70 a piece. They are pneumatic fenders for shipping each one as long as 20ft at that price not even bulk order and can be found larger and smaller. They are designed to withstand massive forces, hard to penetrate but filled with will closed cell foam even if they do. Chained together like in the picture you could have the floating material to build a platform 40 foot by 80ft for as little as $1000. One large platform would be liable to break with waves but one hard surface over each rubber fender or pairs. Perhaps with flexible material in-between would allow the structure to move with the waves. Calm seas would be needed and possible storm shelter too... But hopefully crops could be grown in green houses.

What do you guys think? I'm looking to publicise the idea maybe set up a Youtube account. Explore other peoples ideas potential problems and solutions ect.

Death by Competition?

"What do you guys think? I'm looking to publicise the idea maybe set up a Youtube account. Explore other peoples ideas potential problems and solutions ect."

Liberated people, in their own minds, tend to have a hard time avoiding the criminals who make their crimes legal. An example is the case where many Liberated people left England for North America during that colonization period.

There was a period of time when Liberated people did compete and kill the Legal Crime business, We The People defeated and drove out the bad guys who were then calling themselves The British.

That period of time ended in 1788, when the Legal Criminals took over, and since then Liberated people have been finding it to be very difficult to compete against Legal Crime.

Now, how bad it is, when Liberated people are finding fewer places to run from Legal Crime?

Boat people?

As if that has not happened already?

I think the Peter Thiel idea can work to show how competition works, and if such competitive examples Liberate the minds of enough people, then there won't be any need for Liberated people, who are Liberated in their own minds, to live on water, since We The People can retake our POWER over our own government including retaking our POWER over our own money.

If people are moving off-shore to get away from something, do those people who move off-shore start using their own money, and if not, what exactly do they think they are running away from?

Joe

Interesting.

Boat people, yeah that has happened there have been sea fairing nomads long before now. So why do we need to rely on multimillion dollar oil rigs and billionaires?

See I'm from the UK so there's not history of liberty, even if things get better I don't even nearly think it could be as free as I want to be. Even if this place could be fixed politically. Socially, morally even less likely, so I'd still want out. Wasn't it Jefferson that said (paraphrasing here) "an immoral people are doomed to live under tyranny"?

Interesting point about money without tax I guess we can use barter gold, silver or any other medium of exchange. If like I dream, I can supply 90% of my needs my self I only need money for my wants it doesn't matter too much... Whilst employment is in no way being coerced, it is not being wholly independent, it's the next best thing.

Though I think one could contribute, intellectually, financially, in terms of morale from one of my islands. By all means Americans keep the R3volution rolling in the U.S.A. Though I think sea communities could show the world what freedom, liberty and determined individuals can achieve. Besides aside from emigrating I've little choice, I NEED to get out of here I definitely can't stay where I am. Me, I'm running from the state personally and it, in it's many forms has taken all of the land...

Seeing is disbelieving?

"See I'm from the UK so there's not history of liberty,"

I stopped reading at that point and I can continue reading after these responses you may or may not see, or know, or understand, or appreciate, or content with, or respond to reasonably.

Here is a very interesting Essay that addresses the words you published concerning "the UK" where there is no "history of liberty".

http://lysanderspooner.org/node/35

Setting that aside for the present concern of your other words I can respond further, in my own words, but that Essay clearly addresses the perception of historical Liberty in that place called England.

The point that may help when considering the Example of what people have done to CREATE LIBERTY concerns those POWERS that are necessary IN Liberty.

People have to stop running scared and they have to start using the POWER they have to make enough POWER to deter the criminals, including the criminals who counterfeit LAW POWER.

That sentence may not be easy to understand, and I can sympathize, but I won't tolerate deceit being invented and used against me - so as to "shoot the messenger", or any other motive of any kind.

Here:

http://www.amazon.com/The-PayPal-Wars-Battles-Planet/dp/0974...

Those people who you may now be calling "billionaires" (as in "who need" rely upon them) EXEMPLIFY what has to be done to CREATE those necessities required IN Liberty.

That book may open a few eyes, or not.

Peter Thiel started small. Now an Example of how expensive it may be to live on water, without becoming a poor example of "boat people", such as Men Against the Sea (another book worth reading), started out with an idea, a competitive idea, to take over the world Money Supply.

That was PayPal. It was sold off for reasons that may become clear.

The other example of note involved in those billionaires that may or may not serve anyone else, but I am served well enough, with an example of what is takes to be IN Liberty, is a guy named Elon Musk.

After PayPal the guy named Elon Musk took over and won the race to make the first massed produced Electric Cars, and while he was at it the billions earned were also earned by selling Solar Panels, and now the individual is supplying the Space Industry (world wide) with Rocket motors in direct competition with any other supplier, despite the obvious subsidies taken from private (not Fascist) entrepreneurs and handed to the competition.

If someone can make the best Electric Cars in the World, and do so in California, and do so with NEGATIVE subsidy, and having to find CREDIT offshore, then an example worth knowing exists, competitively compared, to any example of Boat People; richer or poorer, whereby the history of Liberty in America is occurring now - right now.

_______________________________________________
Wasn't it Jefferson that said (paraphrasing here) "an immoral people are doomed to live under tyranny"?
_______________________________________________

England is tough, I can imagine, but here in America there are many places to go, Pioneering types of people find them, where no one will ever contact you, and the land is still relatively productive, but you will have to work a lot, to make a few ends meet. It can be a very rough life, but there are places, exemplified by the State of Alaska, but there are other places, I know, I've seen them, all over this Country, where no one goes, and a homestead house is all by itself, and with enough POWER in skill, knowledge, and materials a living can be made, separate from anyone else, where other people, but not you, certainly not you, are immoral. Perhaps now the homestead houses are very scarce, now, and you may have to build one yourself - all alone - since the other people are immoral, not you.

"Interesting point about money without tax I guess we can use barter gold, silver or any other medium of exchange. If like I dream, I can supply 90% of my needs my self I only need money for my wants it doesn't matter too much... Whilst employment is in no way being coerced, it is not being wholly independent, it's the next best thing."

I did not save the link I had to a very powerful looking Common Law movement happening in Alaska, and spreading, and this is the same type of Common Law that was imported from England with Trial by Jury based on sortition, but it is currently happening in Alaska, and they use Gold as money, these Pioneering people of which I lost the link. They had a very good Pamphlet spelling out how their competitive version of Common Law works, and it was working anywhere in America, not just Alaska. If I run across the link again I can post it on this forum.

"Me, I'm running from the state personally and it, in it's many forms has taken all of the land..."

The battle has to be first won internally.

Joe

Ok there was a history of liberty.

Common law and other bodies of law it once competed with, six in all I believe merchant law, Roman law ect. The Magna Cater yes and the charter of liberties it was based on. There were many things the Anglo-Saxons did right and they spread such ideas across the world.

I meant liberty in a pretty purist sense, but where is there a history of that? What we don't have in the UK country is a love of liberty, a yearn for it. What we do have is a self fulfilling pessimism than all such dreams are doomed... What I aught have said is that as near as I can tell we won't have a future with liberty. Plus even still I'd want to get away.

Log cabins in America? Sounds like something one could be deported for. Not what I'm looking for and I just don't trust the state, I don't want to be in it's boarders.

I'm no saint but a lot of things here offend my sensibilities, much of it sickens me. Weather I'm personally correct or not I need to get away from what I perceive as so wrong.

All I know is right now I need to see a pathway out.

Interesting

"What we don't have in the UK country is a love of liberty, a yearn for it. What we do have is a self fulfilling pessimism than all such dreams are doomed... "

I moved from New Jersey on the shore to the Mojave Desert in California as if from foreboding doom to pure liberty - a long story.

Joe

For me, it is an uncomfortable truth.

Borders are not real, they are imaginary lines drawn to divvy up tax slaves. The truth is, the earth owns us, it was here before us and will remain after we die. I believe "land ownership" is an illusion, useful to get money from the chattel.
That said, I also believe we have the right to make a home - the Homestead Act was pretty close. As long as you are making use of the land you deserve to be left in peace to work it.
So there is what I think about it, but I am "buying" land and developing it hoping the delusion holds long enough for me to live out my life on "my" land.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

I feel that if you beliee in

I feel that if you beliee in such a philosophy of property rights, you also believe that we should cede all our land (or at least large chunks of it) to the native americans who were here before us.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

lol, they weren't even the

lol, they weren't even the first people here. look up solutrean culture/