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Land Ownership Rights, Property Rights: What are your thoughts?

How do you define property rights?

Do you believe in our current model of the state administering land ownership and titles?

Most libertarians believe in 'property rights', but how does land fit into your property rights theory?

I believe in the homestead principle which asserts that one has rights to unowned land by productive use:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_principle
(Wiki has thoughts from: Locke, Rothbard, de Jasay, Hoppe. It seems most libertarians agree on the homestead principle)

Actually the Homestead Act of 1862 was based on this principle according to Wiki. (Note: I think the Occupy Movement should have taken this approach in protest against state ownership of unused land. I also agree with Benjamin Tucker who believed that the 1)money monopoly, 2)land monopoly, 3) tariffs, 4) patents were detrimental to average Americans)

Anyways what are your thoughts? I'm very curious to know.



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Land ownership is recognized

Land ownership is recognized in the US. China does not recognize it in quite the same way (2007 story):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6456959.stm

You can choose where you prefer to live. I like it better here, although it keeps getting worse.

You haven't really answered my question...

I recognize land ownership too, but in what way is the important part. In the US there does seem to be common law property rights based on the homestead principle and there was even the Homestead Act of 1862. However I argue our current land ownership rights system run by the state (ie. counties/state/Fed) is contradictory to these homestead principles, common law, and free market principles so I'm curious to know your thought about what you think gives any person the right to claim any land.

BTW the other thread 'This Is Why They Don't Allow Citizens To Own Guns in China' shows people in China really defending their homestead rights in their 'nail' homes.
http://www.dailypaul.com/264584/this-is-why-they-dont-allow-...

I'm impressed by the Chinese people's fierce defense of their homestead rights. In the video some self-immolate themselves, defend themselves with make-shift cannons, and physically fight the state and private developers& contractors. In China you lease the land for 30-70 years I believe so there are land rights there.

Another question is do you really own land property in the US if you have to pay county taxes to fund education? Is that fair? Most people are comfortable with the idea that we should have no income taxes and consider taxes stealing. What about property taxes? Isn't that stealing too? Who gave the local government that right to your home if you don't want to fund education? Is it the local government's right to lay claim on your homestead in the first place?

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

Property taxes are even more immoral than income taxes

The only type of tax I accept is a sales/use tax applied for a specific purpose. As for the government protecting land rights, they do collect title fees every time a property changes hands, and that fee should be enough to guarantee the title. If the government charges the fee then the title you are given by them should be ironclad, with the issuing government on the hook for any defects. I also always thought titleing fees should be value based as a more valuable property is more likely to have title claims brought against it.

Private property should remain open to homesteading as it currently is in most states. If you can pull off improving a property and using it for 10 years without the owner noticing then they have so little use for the property that they deserve to lose it. use it or lose it if you will. I also think public lands should be open to similar homesteading with the exception of narrowly defined park areas. This would not allow a logging company to log off national forest, but if a poor family with the work ethic moved on, built a cabin, and improved the land, then after a period of time they would gain legal title. I always thought a good compromise to welfare programs would be to open lands for settlement to those who are destitute and on the public dole. The USDA or some such group could be used to help advise the new colonists, and help make sure they didn't starve or freeze due to crop failure, but other than thet they need to learn to swim.

Josh Brueggen
Engineer
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Precinct Commiteeman Precinct 5 Rock Island Co Illinois

Thanks Josh..

Makes sense.

I'm opposed to all taxes. I can accept voluntary user-fees. Indirect taxes are more tolerable if you accept the idea of government. Government title fees are mainly administrative I presume because we have title insurance companies to cover claims. There are costs to survey the land too. In any case I can see a third party take care of these issues in place of government even if we wanted to maintain a similar structure.

I agree with you on homesteading.
You say: "Private property should remain open to homesteading as it currently is in most states."

Do you have details or examples on homesteading on private land? The Homestead Act of 1862 seemed to be replaced by the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 and homesteading may no longer be acceptable by statute. This is at the Federal level and I'd like to know what state constitutions say if anything. However maybe if someone homesteaded based on common law you could argue all the way to the state or Federal Supreme court and win. Most statutes are unconstitutional.

USDA? Anything can be done without a government agency.. even during droughts and mass crop failures.. insurance and mutual companies and organizations come to mind...

Overall I generally agree with your sentiments.. I'm just more of an anarchist.

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

Well...

Philosophically, there are issues regarding taxation and property ownership, but local laws are different everywhere. "Buyer beware" is always a good rule of thumb.

"...I'm curious to know your thought about what you think gives any person the right to claim any land."

I'm sorry, I have no qualms with property ownership. As Americans we recognize property ownership and this is just one important difference between the US and other countries.

You say you "recognize land ownership", so why do you keep questioning it?

I've been munching on this

I've been munching on this cookie for a while, too. Eventually new frontiers will open for private ownership...the oceans, the moon, mars (I did say eventually, lol)...how do we decide who owns what? You can't exactly purchase 1 acre of land on mars, is it going to be like the frontier days where you grab 4 stakes, section a piece off and say "mine!". This could turn out really bad, as you can imagine. Obviously when land isn't owned, its "public"... how does it become your private property? And what would happen if Bill Gates decides he owns the moon. Also...what stops me from forming a box around a piece of land owned by someone else, and in term that person has to go to you to get anything? Tough questions (yes, im a firm believer that prv prop does better than public prop)

One world, under government, with power and money for the elite

Why is it that bad to grab stakes and lay claim?

It may be a little messy but it's fair no?

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

What stops me from saying I

What stops me from saying I own eeevvverrryyyything and anyone who steps on anything that isnt already owned is now owned by me will be shot. First one to arrive at said land?

One world, under government, with power and money for the elite

Here is the thing... In the

Here is the thing...

In the USA, much of the land was obtained through aggression. The government fought wars, seized the land, and then allowed settlers to claim the land.

That muddles the whole idea of property rights.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

But didn't some of the first

But didn't some of the first settlers trade with the Indians equitably and both parties were happy and existed together? But then came the criminals to take advantage of the indians and the settlers in the name of collecting property taxes?

Sure, this will soon be the

Sure, this will soon be the norm as humans inhabit places beyond the Earth. Asteroids, the Moon, Mars... the great land grab will soon lead enterprising individuals and companies to all new frontiers. In fact, it's already happening.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/11/elon-musk-mars-col...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57556017-1/3d-printer-on...

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/asteroid-mining-...

Actually

One of the most interesting things about this time to me, is that for the first time we've run out of frontier, and floating countries notwithstanding, freedom-lovers are going to have to stay and fight, rather than flee.

Yes, someday there will be other places to go, but a dollar collapse could slow that down.

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

Run out of frontier?

Sure to escape persecution, but what about just homesteading on vacant land? It seems there is usable land everywhere you look...

What do you think of the idea of homesteading on: 1) state/county/Federal land and 2)'private' unused land?

How do you resolve the conflict in option 2)? If you believe the state has no authority to distribute land, does someone who bought thousands of acres of land from someone have ownership rights? Why or why not?

I'm more curious about those libertarians who believe in the current system of land ownership rights and their philosophical arguments against homesteading if any.. anyone?

9-11 Media Fakery: Did anyone die on 9-11?
http://www.cluesforum.info/

http://www.septemberclues.info/

9-11 Actors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aPvJSQtmoE

Pysops.. media.. actors.. propagandists... disinfo agents.. fake videos.. fake photos

Homesteading on 'private' unused land

I would be against any type of homesteading on private, unused land. To me, that would be theft, plain and simple. Would it be ok for me to take a car from your property that you haven't driven in five years? Of course not.

See above

"New frontiers" are opening as we speak.

I agree with you. People are

I agree with you. People are beginning to realize that we are backed up in a corner, and the only option is to fight. Im talking about the future when big gov't becomes obsolete? How do we determine what a free society does in regards to claiming unowned land? Very tough for me to understand the liberty minded pro free market approach to obtaining unowned private property.

One world, under government, with power and money for the elite