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Nobel Peace Prize Winner Desmond Tutu on "apartheid nature of Israel and its current government."

Justice requires action to stop subjugation of Palestinians
By Desmond Tutu, special to the Tampa Bay Times

"A quarter-century ago I barnstormed around the United States encouraging Americans, particularly students, to press for divestment from South Africa. Today, regrettably, the time has come for similar action to force an end to Israel's long-standing occupation of Palestinian territory and refusal to extend equal rights to Palestinian citizens who suffer from some 35 discriminatory laws.

I have reached this conclusion slowly and painfully. I am aware that many of our Jewish brothers and sisters who were so instrumental in the fight against South African apartheid are not yet ready to reckon with the apartheid nature of Israel and its current government. And I am enormously concerned that raising this issue will cause heartache to some in the Jewish community with whom I have worked closely and successfully for decades. But I cannot ignore the Palestinian suffering I have witnessed, nor the voices of those courageous Jews troubled by Israel's discriminatory course.

Within the past few days, some 1,200 American rabbis signed a letter — timed to coincide with resolutions considered by the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church (USA) — urging Christians not "to selectively divest from certain companies whose products are used by Israel." They argue that a "one-sided approach" on divestment resolutions, even the selective divestment from companies profiting from the occupation proposed by the Methodists and Presbyterians, "damages the relationship between Jews and Christians that has been nurtured for decades."

Read more at: http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/justice-requires-act...

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It *does* have an apartheid nature

but I read it as John taking it a step further and calling Israel an anti-Goyim state. Like you said, many of these folks are supremacists. Many can't even tolerate living *near* non-Israelis and/or non-Jews.

I'll say this much; when conducting business transactions with Jewish folk, I found that it is NEVER in my best interest to let them know I'm not Jewish.

To clarify, I'm not trying to say ALL Jewish folk are like that, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't notice that attitude among Jews much, MUCH more often than any other religious/cultural group.

A signature used to be here!

After working for a very long time in the Boca Raton area

and north palm beach county in high end golf country clubs, I can tell you that my Jewish clients were not embarrassed to tell me that they only wanted to live in a place where there were other Jews, they would try to pin me down on percentages, which is illegal for a realtor to do, and I would tell them that it could cost me my license (they didn't care), then would demand to see membership lists so they could determine themselves if enough jews lived there, and it was *ok* if there were non-jews, just as long as they weren't the majority. They are the MOST racist clients I ever worked with...

and yes, they sometimes would assume that bc I was from NYC and had dark hair that I might be Jewish,..I think that's why they felt comfortable sharing their prejudices with me.

Also, I dated a Jewish guy who actually told me that he could never bring me home to meet the parents, they would never approve of his goyem girlfriend, naturally that was the end for me.

RP R3VOLution

Remember that storyline in

Remember that storyline in Sex and the City in which Charlotte had to become Jewish cause her bf was Jewish and he told her that he couldn't marry a shiksa? Well, she converted. We all know that there is no way that Hollywood would have scripted HIM becoming Christian so that she could remain Christian. Charlotte would have been rightly called a bigot for insisting that her bf give up his faith.

I don't think

I don't think you should let the Jewish media define your language.

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

John,

Hit the commies in the groin hard.

glad to hear more people

glad to hear more people speaking out

Really?

Desmond Tutu is a communist (as are most Nobel Peace Prize winners.) This is who we promote at the pro-freedom Daily Paul?

He also supported the African National Congress, a communist terrorist organization which was famous for "necklacing" - forcing a rubber tire, filled with gasoline, over someone and lighting it on fire to execute them for not supporting the communist terrorists in South Africa.

I suspect this is thinly veiled antisemitism.

Good job, DevinDraven.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

Rethink Your Approach

Pardon me, but I think we generally promote IDEAS here moreso than the people from whose lips those ideas are voiced. This is exactly what Ron Paul means when he talks about building coalitions to promote and achieve shared ideas. If it were about anything else, he would never reach across the political and vast ideological aisle to work with people like Barney Frank in an effort to change our nation's drug laws or Dennis Kucinich to reign in our military involvement overseas.

If you find yourself grappling with the the messenger rather than the message for reasons other than dishonesty or hypocrisy, you're not only missing the point, you're undermining one of the most powerful tools in our arsenal that we can use to effect change. I'd work with Lindsey Graham, Joe Lieberman, or even Ben Bernanke himself on a discrete, shared idea.

I'd hope most here would be able to do the same. To do anything else is to work on behalf of individuals rather than ideas and ideals, which is exactly how our Congress has become the cesspool of demagoguery and dissembling that it has become.

see my reply below

First, see my reply ("see what happens?" below)

Second, I understand your point in general, but there are some people that are despicable. Tutu is one of them. Mandela is one of them. Everyone has to draw their own personal line somewhere. It's one thing to work with a Barney Frank (I wouldn't, but Dr. Paul is free to, obviously) or a Kucinich, but even Dr. Paul would draw the line somewhere. Do you really think he'd work with a Hitler or Stalin or Mao? With the Tutus and Mandelas of the world, we are not talking about different or overlapping political ideologies, we are talking about murderous, evil people that should have been dealt with a long time ago.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

Mr. Spock, You Did

offend so many. If you paid attention, many are here mostly because they thought ending aid to Israel will make it weaker. Many really either do not understand or do not care about free society; they would rather listen to Alex Jones. The fact is that under free society Jews will do even better. So Hitler is not the one they wont do business with.

Forget veterans, had RP offered perks to trade unions, they would all be here as well.

Red Herrings, Strawmen, and the common logical fallacies

As usual...

"many are here mostly because they thought ending aid to Israel will make it weaker" -- Strawman. Many at this site hold this idea because it is the right thing to do. We are in dept for 16T yet we still give Israel $10 Billion every year. That is enough to give every household in the US approximately $70,000. (I'm not saying I want that to happen, it is just for scale) Plus, our aid and military equivents in equipment are used to kill innocent victims. And, we give their enemies twice as much. It is just a stupid policy, and without any moral justification. Perhaps we don't like the idea of the Death-Camp called Palestine funded with our money.

"Many really either do not understand or do not care about free society; they would rather listen to Alex Jones" -- Red Herring/Begging the Question. Listening to Alex Jones has nothing to do with whether or not someone believes in a free society. A statement like that is beyond reason - totally unfounded.

"The fact is that under free society Jews will do even better" -- Non-Sequitur. Under a free society everyone would do better. Gigantic "duh" on that one.

You sound like a 12 year old Neocon.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

Mohusk

First of all, you do not give anyting to Israel, like you do not give anything to Pakistan or Iraq. So "we" is fantasy. You and me will never pay out the debt, it is unpayable.

Secondly, I wont even go into the numbers. BUT I am all for stopping aid to ALL - Israel, Mulsims, Asians, Latin Americans and the biggest donors, EU Banks. I also would like Japan and NATO countries pay full price for their defense. Then, if a serious person with real ability to calculate, adds up the numbers - Israel will be far ahead compared to what will happen to Spain, UK, France, Greece, Egypt, Jordan, etc.

In case if you personally do not like Israel, here is a bomber - under free society, with no taxes, private Jews will donate far more to Israel than Arabs & Europeans will domate to Israel's enemies. So I suggest real anti-Semites think twice before advocating RP ideas.

RE: everyone will be better is a Utopia. It will be "on average" via hard work and "for all" indirectly via more technological progress compared to collective forms.

Thank you for not addressing your fallacies

By not addressing them, I am assuming you acknowledge them.

While "we" do not pay Israel, and yes, the debt will never be paid, "we" are still effected by monetary inflation so "we" are paying by virtue of the depreciation of wealth. And, "we" are also paying (well, at least I am because I earn a salary, but in general like most people with salary/wages) based on the W-2 Income Tax. Our W-2 withholdings every 2 weeks go to pay the interest and fees to the private owners of the Federal Reserve for the money supply (check out the Grace Commission). So yes, "we" are in fact paying a price for those "loans".

I'm glad we agree on ending all foreign aid.

"In case if you personally do not like Israel, here is a bomber" -- Another Strawman. I dislike the policies of the Israeli Government. I'm sure I would get along fine with most of the citizens. It has nothing to do with religion - I think Jews, Muslims and Christians are equally deluded.

"under free society, with no taxes, private Jews will donate far more to Israel than Arabs & Europeans will domate to Israel's enemies." --- Well, no shi$! "Duh #2".

"So I suggest real anti-Semites think twice before advocating RP ideas" --- Another Strawman, but at least you threw in a little patronizing to Ron Paul.

"everyone will be better is a Utopia. You forgot, on average..." --- You are correct, oh wise sage. Only some people are better in a free society (on average). Fascism and Communism should be selectively used for the 'undesirables'....Sorry for the sarcasm. I didn't say everyone would be richer, but "better" is based on an inverse relationship to living as a debt slave to the FED and the nanny state and our currrent fascist economic system. I suppose you could make the argument that some people are meant to be controlled communist sheep and others are not. You could make that argument - but that would be a tough one to provide evidence for.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

You are angry

because you are caught being incompetent.

Your youtube "theoretical" stuff cannot impress me like "virtue of the depreciation of wealth." Wealth is not paper money, but products and services produced. Nothing much is produced in USA nowadays. Government expense and Wall Street manipulations are included in our GDP, otherwise, it would be shrinking even without inflation.

You misunderstood the game - WE benefit from the whole system (paper buys like gold.) Part of that system is to make sure Pentagon dominates the world. Foreign aid is part of the micro-management.

Everybody knows the system wont last - even socialists and neo-con. They just enjoy the time. With strong Pentagon, they will game the system again. You and me BOTH live beyong our productivity compared to world market. Say thank you.

Israel has 13 political parties. Executive branch is always multi-party coalition. Congress can stop the executive branch at any time with 51% vote and start new election. Pretty pretty good. Everything in comparison.

Sorry, the Emotional Appeal Fallacy doesn't work either

I'm not angry at all. And, given your lack of responses, tacit acknowledgement that you use solely logical fallacies as support for your positions, and your constant changing of subject matter - I feel very competent indeed. I've been here a long time and I've seen many here who had no sense of logic or reason - but you might be the extreme.

My "youtube "theoretical" stuff"? What the Hell are you talking about? What about your "the moon is made of green cheese "theoretical" stuff"? - See? Anyone can use a Non-sequitur - it's fun!

"Wealth is not paper money, but products and services produced" -- Wealth cannot be a service, but it can be a product. A service has value, in terms of barter and agorism, but it is not wealth. If you cannot transfer it to someone, like your children, it is not wealth. Nice try though. I know wealth is not SOLELY paper money. But, unfortunately that is what I am paid in and what businesses trade with me for. I would take hard currency, or at least a commodity-backed currency in a second. But, saying that the currency we use has nothing to do with wealth is just.....stupid. Sorry, it is. Even if you buy gold, you buy it with paper currency.

"Nothing much is produced in USA nowadays. Government expense and Wall Street manipulations are included in our GDP, otherwise, it would be shrinking even without inflation." - No shi$! Giant Duh #3.

"Israel has 13 political parties. Executive branch is always multi-party coalition. Congress can stop the executive branch at any time with 51% vote and start new election. Pretty pretty good. Everything in comparison." -- Annnd....that would be "Frankly my dear, I don't give a shi$!" Moment #1. Thanks for discussing something completely outside of the subject matter......again.

The rest is just your philosophy without any evidence or reasoning. So, being smart, I'm just going to ignore all that claptrap.

I'm not kidding with this question: Are you being serious? Are you playing around? If not, please do not respond - I don't think I can take anymore of this infantile lack of logic. If you are....well, bully to you, well done.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

If those are your views, your

If those are your views, your personal position is completely understandable. I'd just hope you can take a larger view and see that the posters so far in this thread are promoting an idea of Tutu's which they share and do not seem to be engaged in wholesale promotion of the man himself.

To answer your question, I actually do think Ron Paul would work with Mao or Stalin on discrete efforts if doing so (a) added a sliver of freedom and/or peace to the people or (b) would help ignite the people's understanding of and desire for freedom and/or peace. I mean hey, he's worked in Congress for about 30 years...I don't think it gets much dirtier than that ;)

And your anti Arab hatred I

And your anti Arab hatred I suspect is "thinly veiled." Tutu is right on this.

see what happens?

See what happens when you jump to conclusions? I have no anti-Arab hatred (you owe me an apology.) And I'm not pro-Israel, either. My attitude is the same as Dr. Paul's - it's none of our business, and we shouldn't be involved over there in any way, shape or form. I'm not pro- or anti- anyone. Just get out. Keep our nose out of everyone else's business.

You, otoh, are supportive (at least on this subject) of a pro-Communist, pro-terrorist, pro-murder, phony religious leader. If you have legitimate criticism of Israel (or any country, any person, any political party, whatever), you can express that as an individual without endorsing despicable human beings like Tutu, can't you?

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

You miss the mark, again

Yes, Ron Paul believes in non-intervention, as do I. However, he also has said, repeatedly, that the only action that makes a difference in the political realm is nonviolent protest and nonviolent civil disobedience.

That is why Tutu mentions King and the backlash against his nonviolent efforts from the status quo.

Boycotting is not usually effective, but it is itself a form of nonviolent protest. I see no problem with asking people to join in - I may even participate. That, combined with letters may have some effect, who knows.

Here on DP, we often champion when Dr. Paul works with coalitions (remember his farewell speech saying coalitions work, compromise does not?). When he and Kucinich or Frank get together on a subject we endorse, most of us are cheering. Why then would you condemn the cause because you disagree with Tutu's politics?

I don't know a lot about Tutu. I know his is wise, and I've read a couple of his speeches which were not only inspiring but based on individual liberty. It may be possible he is now a communist and supports the warlord economy of Africa. I also think all religious leaders are phony (no different than "reverend" Al Sharpton or "pastor" Kent Hovind), so that area I don't care about.

"If you have legitimate criticism of Israel (or any country, any person, any political party, whatever), you can express that as an individual without endorsing despicable human beings like Tutu, can't you?" --- Agreeing with someone is not "endorsing" that person. Just as Paul refused to endorse Romney but agreed on a couple points. And, as we have all seen, "expressing" yourself does absolutely nothing. Only actions count. We can "express" our distaste for the Death Camp that is Israeli-occupied Palestine all we want - it achieves nothing.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

Ok, I take you at your word,

Ok, I take you at your word, but you did accuse us of "anti Semitism."

bait taken

bait taken

no, I didn't

I didn't accuse you (plural - "us") of antisemitism. And I didn't accuse the OP, either. I specifically used the word "suspect."

Tutu isn't so much antisemitic as he is just using the communist tactic of divide and conquer - pitting young against old, Protestant against Catholic, labor against management, male against female, or, in this case, everyone against Israel. It's collectivist thinking - putting people into a group and pitting them against another group.

However, anti-Israel rhetoric is often thinly veiled antisemitism; we see it all the time. If the OP states he is not antisemitic, I too, will take him at his word (or her, not sure). We can criticize the Israeli government and its policies the same way we can criticize the policies of our Federal government without criticizing all Americans (although there certainly is enough stupidity going around to blame them for electing the creeps that we do) and we don't need the help of a pro-terrorist, complicit murderer to do so.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

The use of the word...in painting your picture...

...whether it or not it was defined or limited by another word...is always applied to the wall with a broad assumptive and "accusatorially winking" brush. And in my experience, regarding discussions involving the policies and actions of the government of Israel, it is wielded like a sword. Given this, it should engender hesitation before it's employment...much like the word "nigger" as it has the ability to shut down discourse in fine fashion...typically to the intellectual detriment or discounting of its user.

There is nothing in your prose that would have me believe that you weren't completely aware of its use as a credibility defining artifice as you dipped your brush into the can of paint.

Wha? .....hey....who stole my country?

You are right

I used that word intentionally, and I meant what I said. I can't give you an exact percentage, but I believe the vast majority of the time that "discussions involving the policies and actions of the government of Israel" (to use your phrase) are negative, it is because of antisemitism, which is collectivist thinking. When I hear those types of things, I basically take the guilty until proven innocent approach based on MY experience.

I did give the OP an opportunity to state he or she is not antisemitic, and not a peep. So with the, let's say, potential antisemitism, and resorting to a complicit murderer for the argument, the bottom line is I have nothing but distaste for the original post (not poster.)

Let's discuss, e.g., why Foreign Aid is wrong (for any/all countries), not why Foreign Aid is wrong to Israel. Are there different facts, consequences, etc. when discussing particular countries or situations? Sure. And Dr. Paul has addressed those in the case of Israel. But criticism of (and an excessive focus on) Israel often indicates antisemitism. And coupled with the crap coming from a known communist agitator (who, morally at least, if not practically, no one here should be willing to work with) is beyond consideration, imo.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

You believe?

"I can't give you an exact percentage, but I believe"

And on what do you rest your beliefs? My belief would have me hold a direct opposition to you, and I'd simply rely on what I read. My experience..the one that I have in reading thousands upon thousands of posts on this subject in various places over the years, and the experience that teaches me to ignore the prattle of meme spreading authorities on the subject...or any other for that matter.

I read what is said and assess for myself. If somehow Kike, or hook-nosed-jewball-hebe, isn't attached to posts showing ire with Israel, I'd have to assume that the ire was arrived at in differing segue than those who would rant collectivist bigotry since such thought, by MY experience is in the distinct and infinitesimal minority and not as ubiquitous as you'd seem to like others to believe. Arriving at such stance is relatively simple for an observant human as all of the evidence is directly in front of you...each and every time, a post is made, comments are engendered and the accusation is hurled.

Most of the time, like your post, the accusation is wielded without provocation other than stated disagreement (either couched or forceful) with the government of Israel...hardly proof of anything except pragmatic sanity in the comment...not abject bigotry. Why you see bigotry is beyond me and seems like you have a bit of a personal problem. Perhaps my "math" is off, or my contextual understanding of the English language needs work...but I doubt that this is the case.

We can make this assessment in this thread if you'd like...then through extrapolation...arrive at a percentage conclusion to stand upon. Would you like to begin? Identify the Jew haters and explain how you know what they are and then we can assess their stances against the rest.

Foreign Aid: is wrong...to all recipients and especially to Israel as our foreign aid to her is bringing undue attention on a relationship that is much too close for many peoples liking and comfort...and we're talking about Americans here. It is also felt that aid, in the form of money and weaponry, is hardly something that many, given their druthers, would want their contributions to the government squandered upon...no matter what the flag of the recipient.

Add in the ire that our government's seemed incestuous relationship has with the government of Israel, and the very hazy lines of demarcation involved between the power centers of both governments (given the power of AIPAC) and one may be able to make a case for Israeli support as being "worse." Having said this, I am not in favor of singling any one country out and would stand for a complete cessation across the board to all countries receiving US aid.

Personally I'm in the camp that wants it all stopped...preferring for private individuals to support whomever they like.

Israel, through her own actions brings the ire upon herself, paradoxically by using the same tactics as were used by Jew haters in Europe via the walling off of ghettos and the totalitarian control of those "sectors" by "authorities" outside of the inhabitants control, controlling inhabitants access to assets, resources, and free movement. Many parallels exist with 1940's Warsaw and most of the world is not blind to this.

Wha? .....hey....who stole my country?

Thanks

Thanks for your opinion.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

No problem...

But I guess, doing the mathematical assessment of responses...bigotous vs. non-bigotous... is out?

Wha? .....hey....who stole my country?

Denial of Palestinian human

Denial of Palestinian human rights usually denotes anti Arab hatred.

Very possible

However, I never said a word about the Palestinians.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

A Question

Do you think Dr. Paul is supportive of Barney Frank's pro-big bank, pro-homosexual, pro-enormous, bloated government agenda; or do you think Dr. Paul is supportive of the limited and discrete ideas the two men share?

I think it's great that you recognize that Tutu isn't perfect--far from perfect, in fact, as you point out--but if you play the game you're playing, there will never be anyone or anything to support or promote. And that gets us nowhere.