44 votes

Please Help - Applying for Conscientious Objector Status

I am a Army ROTC Cadet wishing to be dis-enrolled from the program. I can no longer lie to myself day after day to justify military service when I know the truth. I know full well how immoral all war is and how incompatible my beliefs are with service. I am sure I don't need to explain this part to the DP Community.

I am seeking advice on how I can get dis-enrolled. If I just talk to my PMS/Commander and tell him how I feel will he be able and willing to simply dis-enroll me? I have look into the conscientious objector route and am willing to do that, but that seems to take up to a year and I am supposed to commission in May. I am aware that if disenrolled I will have to pay back my educational assistance.

If you have and insight or experience with the ARMY or ROTC and the Conscientious Objector process please share your experience and insights. Any resources about applying for Conscientious Objector status would be helpful as well.

This is going to be one of the hardest things I will do in my life, I am so nervous I have hardly slept in three days, I am scared of what repercussions I may face, and really need help.

Thanks for all the dialogue and discussion. It is helping a lot to straighten out my thoughts.

UPDATE:
A few applicable details:

I am okay with intentionaly breaking my contract and being financially liable for what would end up being the cost of my education. So thats not a issue for me. I don't want to be a "gun for hire" so to speak.

I will graduate with a BS degree in Civil Engineering. Job prospects pretty good considering the overall economy. An I will make %30-%50 more than as a 2LT.

If I commission I will be an 2LT in the Engineering branch of the ARMY with a obligation of 8yrs (I had to ADSO for branch for those of you that know what that means). To my knowledge I have little input on what job assignments I get so I can't say, "I just wanna work in construction, no combat operations please." If anyone has insight on this that would be great. Regardless, wouldn't I still be serving a organization that serves a immoral purpose?

IF YOU ARE A VETERAN OR ACTIVE DUTY: One specific question I would like to ask is, if you were deciding fresh, but knowing what you know now, would you join the military again? Under what circumstances?

Hope this helps with your much appreciated advice.



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Former USAF ROTC here...

as a veteran, and one who came thru USAF ROTC program and got an engineering degree as well, I can say in answer to your last question that I absolutely would NOT choose that route now, knowing what I know today, if I had any other options (including going slower and working to pay my own way to do it "part time". I think I have fundamentally changed in my views too much to knowingly and willingly support what I now consider to be a corrupt and imperialistic foreign policy.

That said... if I WAS doing it over and coming up thru now, I would probably opt for the route to stay in and do what I could to spread the truth where and when possible. I only ended up giving up 5 years of my life in the USAF, and I do have fond memories of that time (mostly the people I met along the way). I spent 3 months in Jordan as part of the second Air Expeditionary Force (right around the time we sold F16's to the Jordanian Air Force back in the 90's I believe) and have to say, my experiences there with Arabs and Muslims day to day living proved the lie to me as I look back on it now. I didn't give up my "neocon" ways until AFTER 9/11 sadly, when too much stuff started "not making sense" (starting with some of how things played out on 9/11 itself... with an engineering background, what happened that day still raises a LOT of questions in my mind, defying much of what I learned in school in how it was presented / reported to us).

For my kids, I absolutely refuse to support or encourage them to look at ROTC or the military as an option to get an education. I don't trust my girls to a system where something like 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted, and I don't wish to see my son (or my daughters) eaten by a meat grinder. I do everything I can to teach them about liberty, sound money, a sensible approach to foreign policy and non-aggression (lots of "Golden Rule" talks as they're still young). I don't envy you the choice you're faced with, God bless you either way.

How I turned my service around

My name is Daniel Faubion and I am a Private First Class that felt the same way. My new contract is up in 2015 and I was wondering how I would make it with my strong views. I fought an uphill battle for bringing the Constitution back into the hearts and minds of US soldiers for YEARS. From the second week of Basic Training I was questioning those in command on the lack of education we received (the non-existence of it rather)about the one thing we swore to defend. Well I am proud to announce that I now (As a PFC) teach a class to COs, NCOs and enlisted soldier on the "Keeping the Oath. What happened to the constitution". Ask your officers to let you teach those around you. They may not want you to know this but you CAN make a difference.

Also, join me in being an OathKeeper. www.oathkeepers.org
If you don't feel right though you have that chance to get out. In the words of Napolean Dynamite

"Follow your heart"

By the way....After giving my class my NCOIC and Officer complimented me and gave me the option of WLC. In other words. Becoming an NCO. I was scared when I spoke out during my giving of this class. Apparently the truth resonates as I got a loud applause after it.

Do not renege on your contract to the taxpayers

It goes beyond paying the money back. Paying the money back is a given. What you can't pay back is the large number of man-hours (and money) spent training you, as well as the hole in officer manning that would persist over the next 5 years because of your selfishness. The universe does not revolve around you, you have made a contract with the taxpayers and are expected to fulfill it. Stop being a child, man up, serve your contract with honor, and I promise you that you will not regret it, and might even become a much better person for the experience.

As long as you are fully willing to bear the consequences...

...and personal liability arising from breaking a contract, there is nothing wrong with doing so.

DON'T MAN-UP like that!

There are other ways, be a man, say NO TO KILLING ANYONE!

Just plain 'Happy'about the direction the world is taking! Especially if we live to reach LEV [Longevity Escape Velocity]

yep - you need to man up and be a mercenary

You owe it to us tax payers to slaughter innocents in undeclared (and hence illegal) wars.

And pay no mind to the violations of the "contract" carried out by your "superiors" when they take part in such wars (in direct violation of their sworn oath the defend the USC, rather than undermine it).

And when you later suffer terrible guilt and nightmares over what you've done, you can take comfort in the fact that some brain-dead jackass said it was the "honorable" thing to do.

Woops

prob should have read the whole post

44 Years Ago

I enterred into the facility in answer to a draft notice where they intended to draft me and make me a soldier. Two years earlier I had tried to enlist but they found something in my medical record they didn't like (resolved shortly thereafter). Then I started listening to Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King. After that I took a trip to Europe and in Berlin, Leningrad, and Istanbul (to name a few), out from under the propaganda machines in this country, I got a very different view of my beloved country. Our countries lies and deceit regarding Vietnam were just like Iraq, Libya, and Iran today but I did not fully understand that as a 21 year old.

What I did that day, I do not regret.

I confronted them. I spoke the truths that I knew. I SPOKE MY HEART.

There was nothing they could do or say that would dissuade me. Finally they declared I was insane and I left a FREE MAN

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Martin Luther King Jr.

Sounds like the motivating

Sounds like the motivating factor is the money you took that we all have to pay for you would have to pay back?

See my post on the socialism thread. Hoo boo is his place fked. Good luck!

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good things is my religion. Thomas Paine, Godfather of the American Revolution

From one soldier to another

I don't normally respond to posts, but when I saw yours, I felt I should say something. I would like to think that I understand your situation exactly, but everyone is unique, so let me try to offer some insight as a soldier who has been Active Duty for 5 years now.

Currently as an Active duty soldier, I'm dealing with similar issues like yourself. My morals and beliefs don't exactly line up with the things I currently see, or am ordered to do in the Army. I have spent many days looking inside myself, wondering if this is the right choice. There are a lot of things that this Army has been ordered to do that I don't agree with morally. But there is a lot of good that is done by volunteering your time to be a soldier, as a stone in the wall that will shield Americans and our Constitution from those who would harm us. That is why I still continue to be a soldier; to defend the Constitution, the people of America and their right to freedom and liberty. An Army is a necessary tool to help ensure the people it serves will remain free, from enemies both "foreign and domestic".

You seem like a smart individual (as I'm sure all RP supporters are). Think of the good you could do as an officer in the Army. Officers lead, train, teach, and mentor. You will most likely have command of soldiers, and be an example for them to base their lives on. You will have opportunities to teach and educate others within the Army what you know and believe.

War in general is immoral. But defense of your fellow man for his right to life and freedom is not. The Army itself is not immoral because it's intended purpose is to defend the freedom of the people it serves. It's when powerful men use it for immoral purposes, there lies the problem.

If you think you would be serving an organization with an immoral purpose, let me offer you something to consider- The beliefs that many Republicans have are to promote freedom. Now we all know that powerful men have hijacked the Republican party to use it for what many would call immoral purposes. However, even among these organizations there are individuals, like Ron Paul, who fight for the truth. Would you consider Ron Paul to be an immoral person for serving under an organization like the Republican Party?

In the end, I would say only do what your conscience and your principles tell you. Don't ever let those fall to fear or intimidation. And if you believe that you need to try and remove yourself from joining the Army, then do so.

Excellent post from skinnytallguy12!

The military is full of principled men like him.

It takes a man of great inner strength to offer his
life for his country--even when that country doesn't
adhere to its own laws and constitution.

Unfortunately, it is sad that these men's Commanders-In-Chiefs
since Kennedy haven't been as principled.

As I was about to turn 18, the Vietnam (undeclared) War
was winding down. I began the procedure to become a
conscientious objector. I was also preparing to move
to Canada. I believe in: "Thou shalt not kill", and
"As you sow, so shall you reap." I saw no upside in
going to a foreign country to kill its citizens.

When I received a very high number in the lottery, I
was quite relieved that I neither had to file as a
CO or move to Canada.

But skinnytallguy12 is right. Let your conscience be
your guide. Each of our paths in life are different.

Please get a job, learn how

Please get a job, learn how to be productive and take care of yourself without leaning on everyone else to support you. You obviously can't take care of yourself you sure as shit aren't defending the Constitution or anyone else.

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good things is my religion. Thomas Paine, Godfather of the American Revolution

poorly written--

must depend upon potty talk to shore up your words.

I don't believe in war, and I encourage those I love not to be involved in the military.

But the post to which you responded was more intelligently done than yours.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Correction to my first post

I guess I need to rephrase part of my first post-

You seem like a smart individual (as I'm sure all RP supporters are except Tudo here).

You are right Tudo. I'm a leech on society. All of us soldiers are. We joined because we couldn't take care of ourselves and we need to be coddled. What would we do without people like you to support us?

Never mind the fact that many soldiers have college degrees, jobs, and were productive members of society before joining. I'm willing to bet that I have met plenty of soldiers who are far better individuals than you will ever be.

Good for you man! looks like

Good for you man! looks like you have gotten some good advice so far. It's all about what contracts you signed. If you haven't actually joined the army yet your good to go just change your mind and put it in writing. If you signed something and are already part of he army it is going to be a little more complicated...

Just stick to your guns and don't let anyone try to shame you or intimidate you.

I wish more people would read General Smedley Butlers "War is a Racket" if for some reason they try and force you just refuse to take the oath. They will intimidate you but eventually will cut you loose in a day or two.

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

sharkhearted's picture

You are a man among men. Hang in there, brother.

Engineers are some of the most valuable individuals on the planet (as, unlike politicians or other subjective positions) engineers CAN'T lie.

And even if they did lie...their calculations would "out" their lies.

I work a little bit in construction but not much business right now but you never know contact me in Norfolk VA and I might be able to get you on some construction gigs. sharkhearted at gmail is my email.

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

God bless you patriot.

It's too bad you didn't see the lie before joining but at least you have a conscience and are willing to do something about it now.

Our military is no longer about defense but rather offense.

Pre-emptive CRAP.

I hope you get out before the bastards attack Iran because that's going to be a little different can of worms than Iraq.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

Following your...

conscience is about the bravest thing you can do. Good luck with what you decide.

Are you serious?!?!

Am I misunderstanding something here? You want to avoid military service so you need a way to get out of it without having to actually pay for your college education? Does that mean that I (and other tax victims) should be on the hook for your education? If so, can you please tell me how you are not a freeloading piece of crap (like all of the Obamaphone loosers)? If you have TRULY had a change of heart, you will go ahead and take responsibility for yourself and pay for your own damn education. But, alas, you are not really a true libertarian and/or conservative are you? You just want out of the military service obligation and want to keep the "free" education don't you?

Hahaha watch the losers diss

Hahaha watch the losers diss you and give you a neg. LOL this place is so fked it isn't funny anymore.

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good things is my religion. Thomas Paine, Godfather of the American Revolution

sharkhearted's picture

May I just say to you:

F-U-C-K YOU, and yours.

You are a horrible, revolting, vile disgusting piece of S-H-I-T individual to even raise these questions.

The level of evil that you have displayed here, FAR outweighs any terrorist or threat to national security.

I have one comment for you:

G-O F-U-C-K YOURSELF.

How's that?

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

Sad sad sad

It is so very sad that the sperm that won the race to your mother's egg was the one that produced such a vile, ignorant, pathetic and angry little man. That you went off on such a bizzare tangent is a strange mystery. Your angry rant would make one think that I had stepped on your pet hamster and pissed in your Wheaties.

Hey Shark - Who are you telling to f-u-c-k themself?

I have no idea.

Maybe you're telling that to the original poster.

Which would not be too nice.

The poor guy just wants out now that he sees the truth.

Lighten up on him dude.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

I appreciate your support but

I appreciate your support but comments like this disgust me. You may be drawing unfounded conclusions about this person yourself. He obviously rushed to judgement but you may have done the same. I wouldn't say your response is unwarranted, but I will say that it is not productive. In situations like this I focus on expressing on why and how someone is wrong, without letting my feelings get involved. This has been a more constructive, and less stressful route for me.

"War is a Racket" - Maj. General Smedley Butler

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Diplomacy

Brilliant. Ron Paul has a word for that: Diplomacy.

The whole liberty movement would do well to learn from Ron's style.

Yes. You misunderstood me.

Yes. You misunderstood me. It's clear you didn't bother to read my post and that you have no advice to offer me. I don't know what your background is or what you motivation is but your comment displays extreme incompetence. Your unfounded accusations are infuriating.

"War is a Racket" - Maj. General Smedley Butler

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Yes, I guess I did

I guess I did misunderstand you. I cannot agree with you more on wanting to get out of the program and not enter into military service. However, it seemed that your dilema was related to getting out of the military obligation without having to pay for your college education.

I served 4 years in the Army as an infantry paratrooper. My mind was filled with mush when I enlisted at age 18. Now, at age 40, if I had it to do over again, I would NOT enlist. So, I truly do understand you, knowing what you do now, not wanting to take part in the imperialism. I applaud you for that. However, your college expenses should be yours to shoulder - not the tax-payers.

sharkhearted's picture

Check out my tell-off of this bastard

Dont worry about this lame ass mother **cker. We will take care of him.

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

Is that a fact?

And how, pray tell, do you intend to "take care" of me? You sound (and look) like a very angry victim of the public school system. I certainly will not lose any sleep over your steroid induced outbursts of vitriol.

sharkhearted's picture

And what do you look like??

I doubt if you are brave enough to show your picture.

Does not matter anyway. F-U-C-K you....and yours.

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.