-96 votes

Placing WTC 7 Video In Context

I have, for a long time, believed that Building 7 was a controlled demolition. This belief was based primarily on information from Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. But I was recently shown information that makes me doubt this.

Most videos do not show the whole collapse. They limit the video to only the shots that show the exterior of the building coming down. They crop out the collapse of the east penthouse which clearly shows the interior of the structure collapsing long before the exterior wall. Watch the whole collapse for yourself and observe the windows breaking under the collapsing east penthouse.

http://youtu.be/XrnmbUDeHus?t=10s

This more complete video lines up perfectly with the NIST model of collapse. The video below shows NISTS modeling of the interior collapse of the building. (not the exterior wall as it is often claimed) Their model actually explains what happened very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEj8_oC9PZ8

If after the above you still think WTC 7 was demolished listen to this whole interview and see how you feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsN-X_RDC6o

Thanks for taking the time to thoughtfully contemplate this complex topic. I would be happy to hear your reflections on this information.

++++++++
Update:

Another issue that was raised in the comments is the misleading way the fires in building 7 are presented. Imagine if people presented balanced information and showed this video as well.

http://youtu.be/jk5o-zmvMiM

The firefighters recording the video are obviously concerned that the building is coming down due to the fire and damage. It’s not hard to see why.

If the 9/11 Truth movement wants to be taken seriously and make headway in breaking into the mainstream it will have to confront these issues. Continuing to present this issue in a biased manner will only decrease credibility and take away momentum from answering the many legitimate questions there are about 9/11.

Simply down-voting a post, ridiculing the poster for asking basic questions and failing to address the content of the post is not a constructive strategy for advancing an idea. Isn’t that the whole point of the 9/11 Truth Movement… to ask questions?

++++++++++
Update 2:
I originally titled this post "I Was Wrong -WTC 7 Not Demolition."
I changed this to the above title after receiving feedback that I was drawing a conclusion instead of asking questions. I do not know and do not claim to know what happened. I just ran across a video that put this issue in a larger context that seems pertinent to the discussion.

The video clearly shows major interior structural damage ~7 seconds before the typical collapse video starts. This undermines one of the main positions that convinced me of controlled demolition... namely that all of the core columns failed simultaneously. This is just not true.




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The argument from ignorance: "I don't see how..."

I can understand why people would doubt that a conspiracy could plan and execute 9/11 without someone spilling the beans. But they typically make some unfortunate assumptions along the way: (1) probably most involved knew the plan -- after all, they were conspirators; (2) people who knew would have a hard time keeping quiet; (3) such a complicated plan could hardly help but be discovered. Probably others, but that's a good start.

(1) It really wasn't necessary for most of the people involved to know what was going on. Very many could just be following orders. Others could be doing exactly what the plan predicted they would. Others might learn too late what they were doing and realize they'd be painted as traitors if word got out. And, not insignificantly, those who wake up may be SERIOUSLY intimidated by the power of the forces that used them as useful idiots. Will they die? Will their loved ones die? Neither is remotely beyond a cabal that has already murdered thousands.

(2) Think about it. What you are doing will earn not only the death penalty, but will ruin your name for all time. You're gonna blab? Think about ordinary murderers. Some who are dumber than socks will brag or otherwise spill the beans, but ordinary people will be hyper-sensitive to making any false step.

(3) But it WAS discovered in many ways. Able Danger. Sybil Edmonds. Barry Jennings. William Rodriguez. ALL the eyewitnesses who experienced things absolutely incompatible with the official explanation du jour. Intelligence reports on the incongruously religiously fanatic AND totally decadent "suspects," along with the very suspicious ties they had to the intelligence community. And most importantly, the absolutely overwhelming mass of evidence showing beyond any doubt that elements of our own (and likely foreign) intelligence services, along with key White House personnel (especially Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice) were almost unquestionably intimately involved (see, for example, the testimony of former Cabinet member Norman Maneta, recounting how Cheney refused many times to intercept whatever was coming at the Pentagon).

Think about the Manhattan Project, which remained secret until long after secrecy was required for security reasons. And ... ask yourself how you would know about what conspiracies exist that no one knows exist. ;-)

Now, there's another argument that goes "I don't see how...." But it's very different in character. Instead of having doubts about something comporting with human psychology, it involves doubts about how something comports with the physical laws of Nature. Be honest: Isn't that sort of doubt much more compelling? Isn't it much more accessible to falsification? You can provide evidence that absolutely contradicts a hypothesis abased on physical laws, but a hypothesis based on psychology is too "squishy." You can't pin it down in any definite way.

Of course, the primary focus of the "truther" has been to answer questions of the latter sort -- those upon which hard evidence will bear. Yes, the other variety is present there, too -- but only as supporting arguments based on circumstantial evidence. And yes, there have been LOTS of those.

The old saying attributed to Sherlock Holmes applies (despite a minor flaw) here: "Once you have eliminated the impossible, what remains is the truth."

Those of you who have based your opposition to "truther" arguments on worries about consistencies with human psychology aren't dealing at all with what is impossible; only with what is IMPROBABLE. And, with respect to the items enumerated above, the improbable may not be all that hard to explain.

Never ending

You are SO full of shit that I can smell you through the computer. Like somehow your argument is NOT from ignorance? You somehow have all of the truth, way, and light? Like you actually KNOW anything? Give me abreak you fucking jerk and get off your high horse long enough to recognize that you don't know a goddamn thing about the TRUTH of 9/11.

All of you zombie truthers are worthless. Get a life and stop feeding each other and subjecting the rest of us to your craziness...

You're so tired of people spending so much time on this subject

...yet you are here spending time on this subject posting numerous comments here.

Oh the irony.

Yup

Ironic indeed. After years of watching/reading this stuff, I finally make a comment and get caught up defending my position so that it does not look like I tucked my tail and ran. Yea, I regret having posted on this thread in the first place. I feel like I've walked into a den of zombies and am simply trying to fight my way out before they suck my brains out. ;-)

OK - so here's my exit people. I've posted twice more today (this and another one). That's it - I'm not going to respond anymore (at least that's what I'm promising myself - though I might not be able to resist the urge to mock future posts/attacks).

Darn...

I lied, I posted again. That is the LAST ONE! REALLY! No kidding!!

ROTFLMA

sharkhearted's picture

Excellent point!

Oh the irony, indeed.

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

Really?

You really think that's an "excellent point" minnowbrain? Wow, it does not take much to impress you (and it certainly does not take much to anger you enough to make empty threats of violence). Yea, that's right, I've still not let go of your attempt to scare me in the other thread.

they did make mistakes

that is why a lot of people question the official story. they have looked at the facts and things don't add up.

as far as the number of people involved, you don't think there aren't enough hire mercenaries around that don't give a rats ass about america? they can be trained for a specific task and pull it off. they don't all have to be americans.

and I do have an advanced engineering degree with over 20 years experience and design jet engines for a living so take you smug BS and shove it up your a$$

_________________
Romney is a detour on the way to liberty, anyone else is a shorter path, win or lose.

Well That Just Shows You

How distracted, ignorant, and dumb the masses are that such and inept bunch of rats could pull it off and be believed. Also shows just how lazy, and screwed up those believers are.OR, Have you ever thought that maybe OUR government let SOME OTHER less inept government actually do all the planning?

skippy

Misguided questions = no search for truth

What is getting old is the willingness of a large contingent of people to sweep 9/11 under the rug and asserting that we must get on with the business of selling the idea of liberty. My answer to that is: until the truth of that fateful days is brought to the light of day, the idea of liberty is but a pipe dream.

How many of you are aware that more than 1,750 LICENSED architects and engineers have signed a petition calling for a grand jury (which should have been done on 9/12/01) to be empaneled for the purpose of reopening the investigation of the events of 9/11?

http://www.ae911truth.org/

How many of you are aware of the findings of a Senior MIlitary Affairs analyst who discovered and has made public, that NO plane hit the pentagon on 9/11; that all the damage was caused by explosives?

http://vimeo.com/28718716#at=0

So go ahead people. Bury your heads in the sand. But before you do, recognize this: The vast majority of liberties that we have lost ... have been lost due to the events of 9/11/01.

Logic dictates that: Wrong action has to lead to wrong results; and right action has to lead to right results. Period. No exceptions.

Yea, ok

We're burying our heads in the sand because we think that discussing this topic ad nauseum for years with you guys all saying the same thing over and over is getting old? OK then, I guess I'm an ostrich so I will go ahead and say it more directly than my first post: you dorks are wasting your time here. If you want to get to the "truth", spend your time getting an advanced degree in engineering and investigating the actual data rather than on this forum egging each other on like a big circle-jerk in tin foil hats. You people are part of the reason so many people think we (Ron Paul supporters and libertarians) are basement dwelling losers.

Phase 2: When all else fail, resort to Ad-Hominems

Just what actual data have you investigated, Will? Have you read the 9/11 Commission Report? Have you listened to the testimony of first responders who heard explosions in both towers and Bldg. 7? Have you watched the video of those who have advanced degrees in engineering calling for a new investigation?

BTW, Will, what exactly are your technical qualifications?

I'm a retired USN CPO who often served as an aviation safety auditor; who has worked with metals; and, before serving my country, worked in the construction industry.

So ... please give the ad-hominem stuff a rest and, if you are technically qualified, make comments accordingly.

Logic dictates that: Wrong action has to lead to wrong results; and right action has to lead to right results. Period. No exceptions.

Phase 4: Continue mocking Squid

Did you serve your country or just the masters in charge of the Imperial Armies of Amerika, Squid? I don't think you were serving me (even though I was helping, unwillingly, to pay your salary). Nor do I (today) think that I "served my country" when I was a young paratrooper. Oh yea, I thought I was "serving my country" back then but, alas, I know better now.

BTW, Squid, don't you just LOVE repeating (with emphasis) a person's name when you're trying to be a smart ass. Sort of like the whole drill sergeant poking a private in the chest for emphasis while yelling at him thing right? Yea, uhm, that does not really have any affect on me Squid...

LOL - LOL - LOL

Phase 3: Make fun of squid

My technical qualifications are limited to computer science. Yea, I know, computer science has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. However, I never claimed to be an expert (or even a novice for that matter) on matters related to mechanical engineering, explosives, or anything else having to do with blowing up, melting, or magically making buildings disappear. As a matter of a fact, I’m not so sure that it takes any type of “credentials” to support my argument that the government is too incompetent to have pulled off such a massive operation. On the other hand, to claim that the buildings could not have been toppled by two aircraft (traveling fairly fast and filled to the brim with jet fuel) and that, instead, the ONLY explanation could be controlled demolitions (like so many relentlessly claim in posts here and elsewhere) is a pretty big leap when so many of those stating this theory as fact are, for example, construction workers, toll-booth operators, furniture salesmen (you get my point). So, to question my qualifications (somewhat angrily I might add) is a bit silly.

OK, so you’re a former construction worker that spent years as an enlisted man in the Navy achieving the rank of E-7. I’m not very impressed with your credentials either. Worked with metals? What exactly does that mean and how, pray tell, does it have anything to do with your attack against me or whether or not a bumbling government blew up some big buildings? By the way, I’ve worked with metals too. I’ve cut stuff with my Dremel tool. LOL

I’m sure that you enjoy tossing words/phrases like “ad-hominem” around to make you think that you’re smart but, I’m not too sure that it applies to me/my posts. All that I’ve done is make a statement about being bored to death with the whole "government tried to blow up New York so that Bush could kill Sadam and start WWIII" topic and state a belief that the government is too inept to have pulled it off and THEN defend against all of those that came out of their basements to attack me and call to question my "qualifications".

It wouldn't require everyone at all

It would require key people in the right positions and they had that. Besides, those people let it happen and didn't need to get intimate about the details; there's intelligence agencies (that don't tend to leak at all) for that.
But I agree with you, we should all accept the official story and move on. It's not like anything actually came of it.

Tongue-in-cheek?

Can't figure out what you meant by: " ... It's not like anything actually came of it."

Please elaborate.

Logic dictates that: Wrong action has to lead to wrong results; and right action has to lead to right results. Period. No exceptions.

Outright sarcasm

TONS of terrible things came as a result of 9-11 and ignoring it is legitimizing those things.

Don't get me wrong

I do believe that the theory that the government knew of the plan and let it happen is plausible. We have certainly seen information that shows that some of the key players were on the government radar. Do I believe that the monster (government) is capable of identifying such a plan and letting it happen so that it could be used to start WWIII? Absolutely! But I have a hard time believing that they could have planned and executed the operation.

Who planned it then?

You say, "But I have a hard time believing that they [government] could have planned and executed the operation." But you believe some cave dwelling, lap dance craving bozos planned and executed it?

fireant's picture

That is the relevant question in my opinion.

Finding out who planned it will lead to the same people who allegedly blew the buildings up.
But it doesn't have to be, nor should it be, limited to OBL or the "government". It could have been any combination or others. We do not know. It could be a small group within, but it would not be "the government" as in the literal thousands which would be required by some of the CD theories we hear. What we do know is, it is this area which the Bush administration obfuscated. Buried deep within the 911 Commission Report is clear evidence of heavy Saudi involvement with financing, planning, and pilot training, as well as foreknowledge by some in our intelligence agencies. Most of that evidence was redacted from documents produced for the Commission, as well as the Joint Congressional Intelligence Committee. The Commission was also denied all interrogation records of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. This is where we have the most and clearest evidence of a possible cover-up. Who did plan the operation? Who financed it? How did the pilots get trained on 757/767 cockpits?

Undo what Wilson did

That is just stupid

Bin Laden: "studied economics and business administration at King Abdulaziz University. Some reports suggest he earned a degree in civil engineering in 1979"

Ayman al-Zawahiri: "Al-Zawahiri graduated from Cairo University in 1974 with. Following that he served three years as a surgeon in the Egyptian Army"

Unless I am mistaken, these two leaders were not "cave dwelling, lap dance craving bozos". They were well educated and had LOTS of money from Bin Laden's family to use.

You people have no idea how to examine a problem to find the true answers. You already have your answer (the government did it) and will spend years trying to assemble speculation with a few facts sprinkled in to prove your preconcieved answer. You think that a bubmling, fucked up government can pull off a massive operation and cover up but a few educated men with serious money and a major hatred cannot plan and pull of a relatively easy operation? They just had to hijack some planes and fly them into buildings.

Well That SAME Government

manages to make us all meekly pay our taxes every year without question, keeps us thinking that voting really matters, sends our jobs overseas, keeps us slaving away to pay off THEIR debts, sends our kids off to fight THEIR stupid wars (And the stupid kids go, without wondering WHY) They force us to eat GMO food and we do it, then we pay the doctors and drug companies lots of money to "treat" what those GMO's screw up. (Once again, no questions asked) Oh, the list goes on and on. Doesn't mean the government is smart or competent, just means WE ARE MINDLESS DUMBED DOWN SHEEP!

skippy

Yea, OK..

There's no question that the average person (American or otherwise) is too distracted, ignorant, and apathetic. There's no question that we have allowed our government to grow massively and steal more and more of our money. I don't know why you went off on this tangent when it does not speak to the complexities of the "operation" that we're discussing.

In this post and the other one, you wrote about how stupid people are. There's no question, they are stupid. However, there ARE people that have asked "who, what, when & why" (including soldiers). To suggest that NOBODY questions the government is silly (I mean heck, look how many people on this website alone are always questioning nearly every aspect of government).

We agree

Everything I've learned about the subject points to the scenario you describe.

How many building codes changed because of the WT7 collapse

ZERO

Fires aren't suppose to bring down buildings. People that choose to use reason and evidence find no fault in the WT7 design because it was blown up.

There is no useful purpose arguing about this collapse, people are just not prepared to accept the truth, get over it.

Not only have building codes not changed

The rating factors insurance companies use for steel framed non combustible construction have not changed either.

sharkhearted's picture

IRREFUTABLE evidence of controlled demolition of WTC7

This is now settled...100%.

Objections? Refutations? Concerns?

Ah...the silence is deafening.

The only thing that is NOT settled is the massive, state-media-run, labyrinth coverup..which is ongoing today ad infinitum.

Physiscist's David Chandler's tripartite presentation here alone...would win, in a court of law with no contest whatsoever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDvNS9iMjzA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXTlaqXsm4k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3mudruFzNw

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

It is not irrefutable.

Here is a two part series "Debunking Chandler."

Please explain how these videos are wrong and chandler is right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rhY9c_iemA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60A86cg16KQ

sharkhearted's picture

One is a physics teach...and one is a paid gov't disinfo agent.

How's that for an explanation.

And physics and science...do not lie.

Its called CALCULATIONS.

NEXT???

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Time to INVESTIGATE the investigators of 9/11. PROSECUTE the prosecutors. EXPOSE the cover-up.

fireant's picture

You'd be laughed out of court.

That's my whole point with this. We will never get a new investigation based on CD. It will not happen.
Chandler omits vital evidence, and continues to imply the whole building fell at free fall when we can plainly see the interior collapsing well ahead of the perimeter walls. That is either sloppy or deceptive, and a grand jury would dismiss him right there.
Here's a short list of his omissions:
1. The rotation or twist of the visible outer shell at onset.
2. The fact the building split at the crimp, with the west portion falling south and the east portion falling north.
3. The east portion fell at a slower rate than the west portion.
4. The fact his measuring point was actually falling away from the camera as well as down.
5. The fact the outer walls ended up in large slabs on top of other debris.
6. The fact some of those slabs landed inside up, while others landed outside up (major clue!).
7. The fact floor trusses were not attached to the walls in the debris pile.
And we haven't even begun to tell the jury about all the FDNY predictions the building was going to fall. You'd be lucky if the jury even calls you after submitting whatever paper Chandler submits.

Undo what Wilson did