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Christmas:The Greatest Story NEVER Told

Christmas:The Greatest Story NEVER Told

Little Tommy Jones was wide awake, despite the fact that he had gone to bed nearly an hour before.In his mind were visions of a little old man with snow white hair and beard, dressed in a bright red suit. He was being pulled through the air by eight reindeer, in of all things, a sleigh.(This bothered Tommy. Why the sled? You see, Tommy lived by San Francisco and it was 50 degrees at 8:00 P.M.) But nevertheless, it was Christmas Eve . . . and Tommy had helped his parents decorate the "Christmas tree". He saw his sister putting the "Christmas wreaths" in the windows, and the "Yule log" burned briskly in the fireplace. Every time Tommy's mom walked under the "mistletoe" his dad would hug her and kiss her. It seems Daddy always was like this on Christmas Eve. He was loud and boisterous and filled with "Christmas Cheer" (that's what Mommy called it). All Tommy could think of was, "what will Santa Claus bring me for Christmas this year?"

Meanwhile, at the little church on the corner, people were pouring into the building to celebrate Christmas Mass, and one could see a Christmas tree, beautifully decorated near the altar. Downtown, the community's only tavern was filled with men and women laughing, hugging, kissing and yes, some even fighting. After all, this was Christmas Eve, a time to really celebrate. All these scenes we have depicted for you are "in honor" of the birth of Jesus Christ on December 25th.

Does Christmas really celebrate the birthday of Jesus? Was he in fact actually born on December 25th? Why do many celebrate their saviour's birth by getting drunk? Should we observe someone's birthday by giving gifts to one another? How did Santa Claus get involved with the birth of Jesus? Why all the emphasis on Christmas tree, yule logs and wreaths?

A great and important event occurred nearly 2,000 years ago in ancient Palestine. It was the birth of our Saviour Jesus Christ. We all know the story as told in the gospels. Joseph and Mary had gone to Bethlehem at the "decree of Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed (enrolled), and this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria, and all went to be taxed, everyone into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth into Judea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem . . . to be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child."(Luke 2:1-5)

We know the story. There was no room at the inn, they spent the night in what we would call a barn, and there Mary gave birth to Jesus. His bed was a manger filled with hay. The attendants were the animals "lowing softly" as they settled themselves for their evening sleep. Out of town, in the fields around Bethlehem, shepherds were spending the night in open fields with their flocks.(Obviously, it was at a time before the shepherds would bring their flocks into the barns, before the cold rainy season of December and January.) "As the shepherds watched over their flocks by night they suddenly saw angels appear in the sky, and the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them, and they were sore afraid. And the angels said unto them, fear not, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David, a saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you. Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger."(Luke 2:8-11) As those shepherds rejoiced that night, so should we rejoice because Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour was born. It is through Christ that we have salvation.

When did this event take place? Actually, no one knows the actual date. However, most "Christian people" all over the world commemorate it on December 25th, and they call it Christmas, or the "Mass of Christ".

As stated in the introduction, most Christian denominations hold special services. It is a time of activity and good will, sometimes starting right after Halloween (at least for the merchants). Many people consider it the best season of all, and they look forward to it with great anticipation.

To Christians who really study their Bible there are questions: Is this observance of Christ's birth as portrayed by the world, really taught in the Bible? How does one link "Santa Claus" with Jesus Christ? Why the decorations and the Christmas tree? Since we don't really know the exact date of Christ's birth, why did we choose December 25th? Who authorized it? Was it God? If he did, for what reasons? It is our intent to answer these questions and to determine just what our attitudes, as Christians, should be.

Think for a moment. Few people know why we do the things we do and where our customs come from. We live in a world filled with customs and we grow up practicing many of them. Most Christian religions have supposed Christmas to be the most important of our Christian holidays. Without question we have blindly followed its observance, and have supposed its observance to be one of the principal teachings of the New Testament. We assume that Jesus was born on December 25th, and that God in his Bible has set apart this day as the most important Christian festival. We exchange gifts because the three wise men presented gifts to the Christ child. Did you know the Bible nowhere states there were three wise men? Did you know those wise men never appeared at the manger on Christ's birth night,but actually many months and perhaps even two years later? They didn't appear at the manger, but Christ's house (Matthew 2:11). Since we look to Christ as the author of our salvation, perhaps we should take a deeper look into his birth. We often hear the slogan "Let's put Christ back into Christmas!" Maybe we should investigate just how Christ got into Christmas in the first place.

Most astute Bible scholars will agree that Christmas as celebrated today is of pagan origin. Earl W. Count, Professor of Anthropology at Hamilton College, in his book, "4000 Years of Christmas" states: "We do not know its beginning . . . we do not really know when the Christ child it venerates was born: or the time and place when Christmas was first celebrated: or exactly how it was that, over the centuries, a bishop saint of Asia Minor, and a pagan god of the Germans merged to become Santa Claus". "Although the Christmas story centers in the Christ child of Bethlehem, it begins so long before his coming that we find its hero arriving on the scene after more than half of the time of the story has gone by. Christmas began over 4000 years ago, as the festival which renewed the world for another year. The 12 days of Christmas, the bright fires and probably the yule log; the giving of presents; the carnivals with their floats; their merry makings and clownings; the mummers who sing and play from house to house, the feastings; the church processions with their lights and song all these and more began three centuries before Christ was born. And they celebrated the arrival of a new year."(Earl W. Count,"4000 Years of Christmas, page 18)

"For that day (25th of December) was sacred, not only to the pagan Romans but to a religion from Persia which, in those days, was one of Christianity's strongest rivals." This Persian religion was Mithraism, whose followers worshipped the sun, and celebrated its return to strength on that day. The church finally succeeded in taking the merriment, the greenery, the lights, and gifts from Saturn and giving them to the "babe of Bethlehem" (ibid., page 27)

"It happened that the date (December 25th) did fall in the midst of the Saturnalia. Far from being an invention to compete against Roman and Persian paganism, the birthday of Christ ran the danger of being swallowed up in pagan merrymaking. The (church) fathers tried strenuously to keep Christmas strictly a churchly celebration. It was part of their unremitting struggle to break the grip of the pagan gods upon the people. And as they broke, Romans became Christians . . . but the Saturnalia remained" (ibid., page 28).

When was Jesus born? No one knows. December 25th is no more than the historical date of his birth than is any other"(page 50). "Christmas, as we have seen, is of the Mediterranean . . . for the Mediterranean world already had not merely centuries, but millennia behind it, when Christ was born; and even the religion which he founded had traveled several centuries before it discovered its need of Christmas" (page 86).

"Renewal and rebirth: After 4000 years, the festival that has grown about the birth of the Christ child remains an affirmation that all things can be made anew" (ibid, page 91).

Do you know that Jesus was not born in the winter season? Luke 2:8 states "and there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flocks by night." This never could have occurred in the month of December in Palestine. The shepherds usually brought their flocks from the mountain sides and fields and corralled them not later than mid-October, to protect them from the cold rainy season that followed. The Bible states in the Song of Solomon 2:11, Ezra 10:9 and 13, that winter was a rainy season not allowing shepherds to remain in open fields at night.

The Adam Clarke Commentary, Volume 5, page 347 states: "It was an ancient custom among the Jews of those days to send their sheep to the fields, and deserts about Passover (early spring) and bring them home at commencement of the first rain." The authority continues, "during the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day, as . . . the first rains began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November (begins mid-October) we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole summer, and as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks; it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields by night. On this very ground, the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact . . . see the quotations from the Talmudists in Lightfoot".

Do you know there is not one word in the New Testament, nor for that fact, in the whole Bible telling us that we should observe Christmas? The Christians of the first century, under the inspired teaching of Paul and Peter and the other apostles never observed it. What then is the origin of Christmas? Would you believe it came to us through the Roman Catholic Church? And that is where it gets its authority as a religious holiday. Why not examine the Catholic Encyclopedia, published by that church, under the caption "Christmas" You will find: "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church! . . . The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt." "Pagan customs centering around the January Calends gravitated to Christmas" and, further, we find this truth acknowledged: The Encyclopedia Britannica says: "Christmas . . . (i.e., the Mass of Christ)". "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church"

The Encyclopedia Americana says "Christmas, . . . it was, according to many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian church, as the Christian's usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth . . ."(The communion,or Christian Passover taking of bread and wine, which is instituted by New Testament authority, is a memorial of the death of Christ.) ". . . A feast was established in memory of this event (Christ's birth) in the fourth century. In the fifth century, the Western church ordered it to be celebrated forever on the day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed."

So we ask ourselves, "How did the pagan custom get into the church?" Most recognized authorities show us that Christmas was not observed by the early church for the first two or three hundred years, a period longer than the United States has existed as a nation. Its origin begins in the western segment of the Roman Church in the fourth century A.D. However, it was not until the fifth century that the Roman Church ordered it to be celebrated as an official Christian festival.

In the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia we read "How much the date of the festival depended upon the pagan Brumalia (December 25th) following the Saturnalia (December 17-24), and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the "new sun" . . . cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence. The pagan festival with its riot and merry-making was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and manner. Christian teachers of the West and Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity, while Christians of Mesopotamia accused their western brethren of idolatry and sun worship for adopting as Christian the pagan festival".

If Christmas came from the Roman Catholics and they got it from paganism, where then did the pagans get it? What was the origin of Christmas? Would you believe its roots begin just after the flood?

Nimrod, the grandson of Ham and the great-grandson of Noah was the real founder of the Babylonian system that has gripped the earth ever since. It was a system of organized competition, of man-ruled governments and empires, based on the competitive and profit making economic system.[Ed.Note: The Book of Genesis 10:8-9 mention Nimrod as being "a mighty hunter before the Lord" The word "mighty" here is translated from the Hebrew word "gibbor" meaning Tyrant or oppressive power; while the word "before" is rendered from the Hebrew "panyim" which can mean before but usually means "against". So Nimrod was a tyrant against the Eternal.]

Ancient writings speak of this man Nimrod, who started a great, organized world apostasy against God, which dominates the world even now. He was so wicked it is said that he married his own mother, Semiramis. After Nimrod was killed .[Ed.Note: Tradition tells us he was cut into pieces for his idolotry by Noah's God-worshipping son, Shem] his mother-wife propagated the doctrine of the survival of Nimrod as a spirit being. She claimed a full grown "evergreen tree" sprang overnight from a "dead tree stump" which symbolized the springing forth into new life, of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th was the supposed birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree.


Through her scheming and designing, Semiramis became the Babylonian "Queen of Heaven", and Nimrod, under many other names, became the "Divine Son of Heaven". [Ed.Note:Queen of Heaven mentioned in Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-25 as being the object of idolatrous worship.] Through the generations, in this idolatrous worship, Nimrod also became the false messiah, son of Baal, the sun-god. In this false Babylonian religious system, the mother and child (Semiramis and the reborn Nimrod) became chief objects of worship. This worship of mother and child spread throughout the world. Only the names varied because of differing languages. [Ed.Note: The reborn Nimrod was also called "Tammuz" and is mentioned in Ezekiel 8:14 where this "false Messiah" is worshipped in God's own house!] In Asia they were known as Cybele and Diorus. In Rome they were Fortuna and Jupiter. In Egypt their names were Isis and Osiris [Ed. Note: And Horus, the, reborn Osirus, child]. Long before the birth of Jesus Christ, the counterpart of the Madonna can be found throughout China, Tibet and Japan.

Over the past centuries, the evolution of the Christmas celebration has become more and more evident. People in the 20th century give little thought to the origin of popular festivities, but rather, take them for granted. Let's seek out the origins of several time honored customs of the Christmas season.


In the beginning of this article we stated that the "Yule log" was burning in the fireplace. The yule log is in reality the "sun log." Yule means wheel, in this case, applied as the pagan symbol of the sun. Today, professing Christians speak of the sacred yuletide season. There is nothing sacred about it! The symbols come from rank heathenism. (Holly berries were also considered sacred to the sun god.)


"The Christmas tree, now so common among us, was equally common in pagan Rome and pagan Egypt. In Egypt that tree was the palm tree. In Rome it was the fir. The palm tree denoting the pagan messiah as Baal-Tamar (Judges 20:33)[Ed.Note: Baal-Tamar = lord of the tree(palm)] , the fir referring to him as Baal-Berith [Ed.Note:Baal-Berith; meaning lord of the covenant" another false title that resembles the true]. The mother of Adonis, the sun god and great mediatorial divinity, was mystically said to have been changed into a tree and when in that state to have brought forth her divine son. If the mother was a tree, the son must have been recognized as "the man of the branch" and this accounts for the putting of the yule log into the fire on Christmas Eve, and the appearance of the Christmas tree the next morning" (The Two Babylons - Hislop, page 97).


Let the reader look at the practice of kissing under the mistletoe. The mistletoe bough in the Druidic superstition, which was derived from Babylon, was a representation of the Messiah, "the man of the branch." The mistletoe was regarded as a divine branch, a branch that came from heaven, and grew upon a tree that sprang out of the earth. Thus by engrafting the celestial branch into the earthly tree, heaven and earth, which sin had severed, were joined together. Thus the mistletoe bough became the token of divine reconciliation to man, the kiss being the well known token of pardon and reconciliation (The Two Babylons -Hislop, page 99).

The Encyclopedia Americana says: "The holly, the mistletoe and the yule log . . . are relics of pre-Christian times."


The custom of giving gifts at Christmas time can be associated with thewise men of the East (and nowhere does it refer to three wise men) to Christ. [Ed.Note: It is generally assumed there were only three magi or wisemen because that is the number of types of gifts that the bible mentions but there could have been 6, 12 or even 100]But in reality, at least so far as the English speaking people are concerned, it is derived from an old heathen custom (The New Standard Encyclopedia-Christmas). The wise men gave their gifts to Christ, but did not exchange gifts with each other. The gifts presented to Christ were to a king, because of his royalty, and not because of his birthday. He was a king, and the people of the East never approached the presence of a king without a present in their hands (Adam Clarke Commentary, Volume 5, Matthew 2:11, page 34).[Ed.Note: The three gifts were also symbolic *Gold- (bestowed upon royalty)because He is our King, *Frankincense-(which was used in temple service)because He was to become our High Priest, and * Myrrh- (a spice used in embalming)because He was to die (for us)]. This was not a new custom being introduced by the wise men, but they were merely following an old ancient eastern custom of presenting gifts to a king when coming into his presence. "Jesus was king of the Jews" (Matthew 2:2)


In Frederick J. Haskins Book , found in many public libraries, entitled "Answers to Questions" we find- "The use of Christmas wreaths is believed by authorities to be traceable to the pagan customs of decorating buildings and places of worship at the feast which took place at the same time as Christmas. The Christmas tree is from Egypt and its origin dates from a period long anterior to the Christmas era."


The name "Santa Claus" is actually the corruption of the name "St. Nicholas" a Roman Catholic bishop who lived in the 5th century. In the Encyclopedia Brittanica, 11th Edition, Volume 19, pages 648-649 you will read "St. Nicholas, Bishop of Myra . . . a saint honored by the Greeks and Latins on the 6th of December . . . a legend of his surreptitious bestowal of dowries on the three daughters of an impoverished citizen . . . is said to have originated the old custom of giving presents in secret on the eve of St. Nicholas (December 6) subsequently transferred to Christmas Day. Hence, the association of Christmas and Santa Claus". It was the work of three American men that gave St. Nicholas the personality of our red cheeked white bearded jolly old Santa Claus. (Ickes, Chapter 3, Christmas, page 57).


"From the German people were to come those most universal of Christmas customs: the Christmas tree, and the portly beneficient Kris Kringle, known as Santa Claus" (Christmas Day: The Complete Book of American Holidays -Myers, page 314).

Gradually the Presbyterians, Quakers and Puritans accepted such customs as the Christmas tree, the giving of small gifts and the Christmas feast. But they spoke violently against the corruption of the Christkindl, (the Christ child) into Kris Kringle. After Kris Kringle was fully assimilated, there was much concern among all religious groups about the non-religious trend of the holiday" (Christmas Day: The Complete Book of American Holidays - Meyers, page 316).

"The observance of December 25 (as a Christian festival) only dates from the fourth century and is due to assimilation with the Mithraic festival of the birth of the sun" (World Popular Encyclopedia, Volume 3).

"Gradually a number of prevailing practices of the (heathen) nations into which Christ came were assimilated and were combined with the religious ceremonies surrounding Christmas. The assimilation of such practices generally represented efforts by Christians to transform or absorb otherwise pagan practices." (The Zonderian Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Volume 1, page 805)

"The pagan symbolism was taken over and, in Christian view, elevated. Jesus became the "sun of justice" and the "sun of righteousness" (Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays - Myers, page 310).

"Our annual Christian festival (Christmas) is nothing but a continuation under a different name of this old solar festivity (Saturnalia)." (The New Golden Bough- Fraser and Foster, page 653).

"Christmas was generally celebrated in the West only after the triumph of Constantine when the time of Christ's birth was reckoned with the Day of the Unconquered Sun on 25 December" (From Christ to Constantine - Smith, pages 150-151).

The assimilation of Christ to the sun god, as sun of righteousness, was widespread in the fourth century and was furthered by Constantine's legislation on Sunday, which is not unrelated to the fact that the sun god was the titular divinity of his family" (A History of the Christian Church: Revised - Walker, Section 13, pages 154-155).

Put Christ back into Christmas? It's impossible! Christmas is a borrowed heirloom that was taken from the heathen scene 300 years after Jesus ascended into heaven. He was never in the festival, neither has he nor does he now condone it.


Many centuries ago, God issued a strong warning to Israel about inquiring after and serving heathen gods. Notice in Deuteronomy 12:30-32: "Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them (heathen nations), after that they be destroyed from before thee: and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, how did these nations serve their gods? Even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the lord thy God: for every abomination to the lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods . . . what things so ever I command you observe to do it: Thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it".

In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus said the apostles were to go to the people of all nations "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." Jesus tells us in John 13:15 "for I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you." In Leviticus 23, we find the holy days that God commanded to be kept forever. Christ and His apostles observed these holy days, and so did the early church. Christ kept the Passover with the apostles (John 13). He preached at the Feast of Tabernacles on the Last Great Day (John 7). Even after the death of Christ, the epistles of Paul showed us that the early church continued to observe these annual holy days. Nowhere will you find any command by Jesus to observe his birth, or Christmas. Actually, he commands us to observe his death, by keeping the Passover as shown in Matthew 26: 26-30, and John 13:1-17. Christmas and a host of other holidays have come directly from paganism but the annual holy days of Leviticus 23 have come from God. Let's forsake the pagan holidays of the world and observe the true holy days of God.

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Ummm yes it does.

IN EVERY SINGLE EUROPEAN LANGUAGE EXCEPT ENGLISH, Pascha/Paschal means easter. Even originally in German it was Paschen.

Pesach and Paschen or Pascua, Paschal, Pascha are linguistically the same word.

As stated FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT, we are commanded to keep Pesach in memory of our savior's death.

We do though the high(-est Christian) holiday of Easter, i.e. Paschen.

From the Op: "He commands us to observe his death, by keeping the Passover as shown in Matthew 26: 26-30, and John 13:1-17. "

You are an absolute idiot.

And an outright liar. Scripture never commands that we keep the pagan easter. And Pesach means Passover. Always has and always will. Just because some of your fellow idiots may say pesach when referring to easter doesn't make it true. Why don't you go look it up, retard.

And it's a good thing that you are just typing on your keyboard instead of talking face to face or we would find out just who the coward is on this thread.


The word for Easter in:

Spanish: Pascua
Russian: Pascha
Greek: Pascha
German: Paschen/Oster
Italian: Pascua

The Hebrew word is Pesach

shall I continue?

Who said anything about pagan Easter? only you.


"Who said anything about pagan Easter?" You are the one who brought up easter idiot. Easter is pagan and easter has nothing to do with Passover or Pesach. Nowhere in scripture is easter mentioned much less commanded.

Any semblance in other languages to the Hebrew Pesach in reference to easter is through ingorant association with the two and therefor are not actually related.

So what's the word for PASSOVER in:

Spanish: Pascua
Russian: Pascha
Greek: Pascha
German: Paschen (Oster means EASTER)
Italian: Pascua

Easter is a pagan day of worship of Ishtar/Estra the pagan godess of fertility. And is forbidden in Scripture.

Check Mate!

Christian theology teaches that

Christ became our Passover. As the angel of death passed over the homes of those who smeared the blood of the slain lamb on the doors saving the inhabitants, so the sheddding of the blood and the death of Jesus (the "Lamb") saves sinners. Christians see the Passover story in the Hebrew Testament as the forerunner of the Easter story in the New Testament, wherein Christ overcame death.

A better understanding of theology would help you to understand what Christians believe and why we celebrate Easter.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

I know why christians celebrate easter.

They think they are celebrating His resurrection.

Your first sentence is absolutely true "Messiah became our PASSOVER." And then you talk about keeping easter in violation of His commandments. This is common and quite honestly ignorant. No offense.

Your salvation did not come from His resurrection, it came from His sacrifice. You are not commanded to memorialize His resurrection, you ARE commanded to memorialize His Sacrifice. The Old Testament Passover is exactly a forerunner to His Passover sacrifice and He is the lamb of our salvation.

Easter is a pagan fertility rite and pagan worship is forbidden by Scripture. There is no Scriptural "Easter Story". I know what "christians" think and why they do what they do. That is why I hesitate to call myself "christian" because in invokes thoughts of Sunday worship, Easter, Christmas and any number of other non Scriptural and pagan practices that will be the demise of many.

"There is a way that seems right to man but the end thereof is destruction." "There are many who will come to Me in that day saying Lord, Lord and I will say get away from Me you who practice lawlessness, I never new you."

Without the Resurrection, the sacrifice would be

a token gesture, at best. I get about the pagan thing. However, there is a springtime for earth and for the soul; a renewal of life after death. I tend to not take things literally. I believe there are deeper meanings in Christianity for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Without the Resurrection, at whatever level anyone chooses to interpret it, there is no foundation for faith.

BTW, I do take the Resurrection literally. All the circular arguements in the world against such a belief, just keep going round and around in cirles. The bottom line for me is "Who Moved the Stone?"

Easter is the highest holy day in the Christian calendar for a very good reason and I celebrate it more so than I celebrate Christmas. Just sayin'.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

Instead of doing what you think

or what makes you feel good perhaps you should do what Scripture says.

If you worship Jesus on Easter and Christmas and Sunday then you are not worshiping Scripturally. Jesus is a false name that accurately represents the false worship of those pagan rituals. Don't get angry with me because I am only telling the truth. And I am not trying to cut you down but the only way for people to see the light is if the light is allowed to shine.

I can show you where "The LORD" says NOT to observe pagan ritual and the destruction that will come to those who do. I can show you where "The LORD" says how He wants to be worshiped and how it is a sign between Him and those who Love Him.

The two greatest commandments given in the Old Testament and again in the New Testament are about loving "The LORD" and loving your neighbor. You cannot love your neighbor by killing him or stealing from him or bearing a false witness against him etc... And in the same manner you cannot love "The LORD" by worshiping falsely and against His wishes. This is simple Scriptural truth.

I once hunted eggs and looked for presents all of which satisfy the flesh and deny the spirit. I praise the day my eyes were opened and I hope yours will someday be opened also. Before it's to late.

I'm not angry with you.

I'm not a fundamentalist. I do agree with the teachings of the Christ and have been mindful of those teaching most of my long life. It is not the letter of the law but, the spirit of the law that matters. God is no respecter of persons. I respect God and the Christ and try to see the Christ in others. For everything there is a season. This is the season to rejoice. If you choose to live your life as an asthestic, that is your choice. I respect that. I am not trying to impose my spiritual path on you. Just trying to get you to see that not everything is in black and white, particularly when things once written down centuries ago in a language hardly anyone knows anymore, has been translated and mistranslated and taken out of cultural context. But, hey... whatever works for you is good for you.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

I'm not sure what you mean by

"live your life as an asthetic" in reference to what I have said. But I am talking about pleasing GOD and I'm sure He finds those who do His will aesthetically pleasing. But He certainly doesn't find Christmas trees and Easter eggs pleasing.
And to say that you can't trust the very Scripture you claim to believe doesn't make sense either. The Old Testament has been proven to be accurate time and time again and that is where instruction in righteousness is contained as Paul says and Messiah confirms. I don't think people will get to far who look for righteousness within themselves.

The scriptures you gave do not command observance of any feast.

The Matthew portion describes the Passover meal and the John portion describes Jesus washing His disciples feet. Do you suggest that we should all literally wash one another's feet or do you believe there is a symbolic or spiritual meaning in what our Lord did? If the latter then everything He did was of the same order. That is the point.

Ritual and collective observances are the very stuff of religion and have been from the beginning of time. Every religion is made up of such activities that are endowed with some significance for the faithful but are of little spiritual worth. If the Lord Jesus Christ taught us anything it was that such observances are futile.

The Lord Jesus Christ came to inaugurate the Kingdom of God in its spiritual reality and to fulfil and put an end to the prophetic shadow elements of the Judean Church of Passover, the remnant of the ancient nation of Israel. Any return to that shadow realm is a retreat into darkness and away from the Light of the Spirit and Truth that our Lord commanded us to be.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

All the high days

in the Old Testament will be observed in the Kingdom so I'm not sure what you mean by your statement. And although Passover is not a High Day I'm sure it will be memorialized in the Kingdom also since He is the lamb. So your comment about returning to darkness seems misguided at best.

And I do know some who wash each others feet at Passover and I do not make light of it as I have also washed peoples feet. It is the ultimate form of humbling yourself and serving your brothers. And for you to make out as if it is nothing is a slap to Messiahs face.

But when you say " If the Lord Jesus Christ taught us anything it was that such observances are futile." Then you really begin to show Scriptural ignorance. The man you erroneously call Jesus did not come to institute some new holidays or do away with the "old mean god" of the Old Testament. He came to end the false worship and doctrines of the time. And in the end all false worship will be completely ended and the true worship of our Heavenly Father will reign.

The Feasts in the Hebrew religious calendar...

Were all marked by Yeshua during His time on Earth when He lived according to the Law of Moses, the Law of the Lord, among His people the Jews. He came to fulfil that Law and the Prophets since they are prophetic of His Life as His Life is the fulfilment of the Law and the Prophets. The Tanach and the Brit Chadasha form a complete whole and a continuous revelation of the Father's plan and purpose for humanity and His Creation. The God of the Tanach who revealed Himself to Abraham as El Shaddai and to Moses as Yahweh is the God of the Brit Chadasha who revealed Himself in His Son Adonia Yeshua Hamaschiach.

Although Yeshua marked and kept all the Feasts and fulfilled all of them in their sacrificial significance, I believe He only prophetically fulfilled all of the Spring Feasts completely. The Autumn Feasts remain to be fulfilled completely. These are the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles.

I believe He was born on the Feast of Trumpets in 2 B.C. I also believe He was baptised by John on the Day of Atonement and was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit in fulfilment of the scapegoat (for Azazel). In His Crucifixion He fulfils all the sacrifices of all the Feast days as well as the sacrifice of the red heifer that took place on the top (rosh) of the Mount of Olives where I believe He was crucified. He appeared in Jerusalem on the eighth day of Tabernacles and cried out for the people to come to Him as the source of living water when the offering of water from the pool of Siloam was being brought to the Temple. In other words He was saying the He is the fulfilment of these offerings.

The final fulfilment of the Autumn Feasts lies ahead of us. The Feast of Trumpets is the day of the "last trump" of the new moon calendar, the seventh trumpet of Revelation, the day of the First Resurrection of the elect symbolised by the 144,000 in Revelation. The Day of Atonement is the Day of Jubilee which is when all the slaves are set free and everyone returns to their inheritance which is a picture of the resurrection body and our inheritance in Messiah who is our Promised Land. The Feast of Tabernacles is I believe a recognition of the temporary nature of our existence on the Earth, our wandering in the wilderness that prepares us for our entry into the Promised Land and at the same time it is a picture of the sons of God receiving the fullness of the Spirit of Messiah.

I believe from the comments you have made that you have a different vision of the Kingdom of God than I do. I may be mistaken but it seems that you are expecting the fulfilment of prophecy as described in the teachings of dispensationalism which expect the Kingdom of God to be established with Adonai Yeshua Hamaschiach reigning from the City of Jerusalem in the current State of Israel. I used to believe something like this but have since been brought out of the institutional church and no longer accept these teachings as authoritative. The Spirit has led me into the true Kingdom of God which is a people in whom and through whom the Father will accomplish His plan and purpose for humanity and for His Creation.

There is no need for religion when Reality has come.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

First off

When you say "Feasts in the Hebrew religious calendar" it indicates a certain lack of understanding since there are no other Feasts or Feast days prescribed in Scripture. You could differentiate by saying Scriptural Holy Days as opposed to worldly holidays. Secondly you keep saying "Yeshua" as if that were Messiahs real Name which does show movement closer to the truth but still falls short. The Name is Yahshua. Acts 7:45, Hebrews 4:8. But we are not debating the Name. :-)

To many people think the word "fulfill" means to put an end to. If I fulfill the law that I should love my neighbor, does that mean that law is done away with and now I don't have to love my neighbor? Of course not. Even Yahshua Himself said that "not one jot or tittle will pass from the law." yet He fulfilled the law. Fulfillment of the law was one of His main objectives and besides being necessary for Him to meet the requirements to be our sacrifice it was also to show us what true lawfulness is and to be a pattern for us to follow as opposed to the Pharisaical example of lawfulness. Christianity does not do as He did so there example is useless as well?

I agree that the Spring Feasts have been "fulfilled" but there is no evidence of fulfillment of the Autumn Feasts by His birth or baptism in Scripture so that is purely speculation so I can not attempt to confirm or deny.

I agree that the Day of Trumpets will be fulfilled on His return and the first resurrection. But the day of Atonement does not fit in with a Jubilee since it is a day of affliction. And although I do believe that our sojourning here may be represented by Feast of Tabernacles in the overall picture there remains a fulfillment of the "Ingathering" and it will definitely be in the kingdom along with His other Sabbaths. Remember that the symbols and Feasts given to Israel are shadows of the Heavenly and the Heavenly things like Yahweh Himself do not change.

I do not see how the New Jerusalem can come down where Israel is now when this earth will be destroyed and New Jerusalem is for the new earth. So I can't say I believe in the dispensationalist teaching you refer to. Surely you don't think the Kingdom can be on this earth as polluted as man has and is making it. That is why this earth must be destroyed for the new. And that will not happen until the end. His Kingdom cannot exist on this earth.

Your last two sentences bother me. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and if you have ever received the earnest of the spirit then you have tasted the kingdom but we are not in that kingdom because the physical cannot inherit the spiritual. And the physical cannot accomplish the spiritual fulfillment. And if you are saying that religion as in Scriptural obedience is not necessary then I disagree. Repentance and obedience are absolutely necessary and that is the reality of salvation. Keeping His Holy Days is not religion but is obedience and the disobedient do not inherit the Kingdom. We cannot make up our own rules and expect to win.

Thanks for sharpening my sword a little bit for me though.

I agree we are not debating about names.

However you have made several statements regarding this so I would very much like to know why you are so dogmatic about the name being correct. My own wife is Jewish by descent and prefers the name Yeshua so in deference to her preference that is the name we use at home. Most Christians prefer to use the name Jesus so that is the name I use in discussions with other Christians in public forums such as this. The God I have believed in and serve has revealed Himself to me personally as the Word of God. The gospel of John tells me that this Word is God that He was with God in the beginning and that He became flesh and dwelt among us.

The Man of flesh who was the Word incarnate was called Jesus according to the testimony of the scripture of the New Testament, Matthew 1:21 and Luke 1:31. The Greek word actually written as Ἰησοῦ but transliterated as Iesous is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Yeshua, or Yehoshua which in English is rendered as Joshua. This latter is the name you have referenced in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8 and refers to the Joshua who led the Israelites into the Promised Land.

I am puzzled as to why you would give me these specific scriptures in support of your position that the correct name should be Yahshua. The Hebrew word for deliverance or salvation is לישועה which is transliterated as yeshua. The name Yahshua is an alternate spelling of Yeshua and since Hebrew has no vowels I am not sure why it would make such a big difference to spell it one way or another or for that matter to use the Greek or English version of the name. The Name of the Lord for me is His nature, character and accomplishments, the mission accomplished if you will. This Name is the anointing He gives to us so that we might be changed into His image and likeness and carry out His will and purpose. He has given me His Word that this is what He will do in and through me and I trust that I bear witness that He is faithful to His Word.

The name of Yahshua was given to our Saviour to identify His mission and purpose. This is the name by which we all know Him today but in the time to come He will have a new name known only to Himself as shall each of those who overcome. The names He is revealed to us as at that time are the Word of God and the King of kings and Lord of lords. In the prophet Isaiah there is a word to tell us another name of God to be used at that time, the name of Amen, the faithful God or the God of truth. This speaks to us of the Word of God as a double witness to confirm any purpose of God revealed to His servants whose hearts are perfect towards Him and who say Amen to His revealed will.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes are like a fiery flame and there are many diadem crowns on his head. He has a name written that no one knows except himself. 19:13 He is dressed in clothing dipped in blood, and he is called the Word of God. 19:14 The armies that are in heaven, dressed in white, clean, fine linen, were following him on white horses. 19:15 From his mouth extends a sharp sword, so that with it he can strike the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod, and he stomps the winepress of the furious wrath of God, the All-Powerful. 19:16 He has a name written on his clothing and on his thigh: “King of kings and Lord of lords.”

Revelation: 2:17 The one who has an ear had better hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers, I will give him some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and on that stone will be written a new name that no one can understand except the one who receives it.’

Isaiah 65:16 "Whoever pronounces a blessing in the earth will do so in the name of the faithful God; whoever makes an oath in the earth will do so in the name of the faithful God. For past problems will be forgotten; I will no longer think about them. 65:17 For look, I am ready to create new heavens and a new earth! The former ones will not be remembered no one will think about them anymore."

This new heavens and new earth does not mean that He is going to destroy the present physical heavens and earth but rather transform them. The Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected in a new glorious, incorruptible, indestructible, immortal body. In this we understand that He unites in Himself the Heavens and the Earth transforming them into a glorious New Creation. In other words the Father's Plan is to restore the present Creation which He has subjected to futility.

Ephesians 4:9 "Now what is the meaning of “he ascended,” except that he also descended to the lower regions, namely, the earth? 4:10 He, the very one who descended, is also the one who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things. "

Romans 8:18 For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the glory that will be revealed to us. 8:19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility – not willingly but because of God who subjected it – in hope 8:21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 8:23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption the redemption of our bodies. 8:24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees? 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance."

Acts: 3:21 "This one heaven must receive until the time all things are restored, which God declared from times long ago through his holy prophets."

The Father has given me His Word and this is being written on my heart in the form of the Law of the Spirit and Life. His purpose for all of us is that He will accomplish this in the inner man so that by nature we do His will rather than by any external compulsion.

Hebrews: 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no one would have looked for a second one. 8:8 But showing its fault, God says to them,

“Look, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 8:9 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people. 8:11 And there will be no need at all for each one to teach his countryman or each one to teach his brother saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ since they will all know me, from the least to the greatest. 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their evil deeds, and their sins I will remember no longer.”

As to the keeping of Feast days that is a question of liberty at the present time. My understanding is that Yashua fulfilled all the Law of Moses which was prophetic of Him and a representation of heavenly realities. Now, if the Law is fulfilled by Him, since He is in me as the Spirit and Life, then as I am led by the Spirit I do by nature what is required by the Law of the Lord. He has opened my ear with His awl to hear His voice and as I hearken to Him in me then I am changed by Him into His image.

Insofar as fulfilling the Day of Atonement is concerned, we are told in Hebrews as follows:

9:11 "But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 9:12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God."

This is a picture of what the Aaronic high priest did on the Day of Atonement. There is also mention in the above portion of "the ashes of a young cow [the red heifer] sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided RITUAL purity". I put ritual in capitals to differentiate it from the real purity bestowed upon us by the blood of Messiah. One is a RELIGIOUS action the other is REALITY.

Micah 6:6 With what should I enter the Lord’s presence? With what should I bow before the sovereign God Should I enter his presence with burnt offerings, with year-old calves? 6:7 Will the Lord accept a thousand rams,or ten thousand streams of olive oil? Should I give him my firstborn child as payment for my rebellion, my offspring – my own flesh and blood – for my sin? 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord really wants from you: He wants you to promote justice, to be faithful, and to live obediently before your God.

Romans:14:5 One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike. Each must be fully convinced in his own mind. 14:6 The one who observes the day does it for the Lord. The one who eats, eats for the Lord because he gives thanks to God, and the one who abstains from eating abstains for the Lord, and he gives thanks to God. 14:7 For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself. 14:8 If we live, we live for the Lord; if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 14:9 For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that he may be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Obedience is to the voice of God and always has been for those who hear. The Law of Moses written on stones was given to the people of Israel because they refused to hear Him. "Shema Israel Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad." Shema means to hear and also to obey. To hear the voice of God is to obey the voice of God. These stones, the second unbroken ones, were later placed in the ark of the covenant in the most holy place and covered by the mercy seat of solid gold in one piece with the two cherubim one on each side who gazed down upon it. The ark of the covenant is a type or shadow of Messiah and in the present age those of us who have received Him have His seed in us which, as we obey Him, is growing in grace and truth, in wisdom and stature and is indeed who we truly are.

John 8:28 Then Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak just what the Father taught me. 8:29 And the one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do those things that please him.” 8:30 While he was saying these things, many people believed in him.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, just as God has shown us mercy, we do not become discouraged. 4:2 But we have rejected shameful hidden deeds, not behaving with deceptiveness or distorting the word of God, but by open proclamation of the truth we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience before God. 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing, 4:4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God. 4:5 For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. 4:6 For God, who said “Let light shine out of darkness,” is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ. 4:7 But we have this treasure in clay jars, so that the extraordinary power belongs to God and does not come from us.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Thanks David

Before I start let's be clear that God/Elohim has only one Name but many titles. The belief that He has many Names is erroneous. Just like we would agree that Messiah's Name is not Immanuel even though it is "called Immanu-el" (Elohim is with us) What Elohim? Yahwh.

We know Jesus is a false name. The J didn't exist until a few hundred years ago. The US on the end is a common Greek masculine name ending perhaps in honor of Zeus but I can't completely verify that. But we know that the J at the beginning and the S on the end are wrong without any Scriptural understanding. What is the true Name? And why does it matter?

Scripture is very clear that we are to praise and honor His Name. And contrary to what some say, when He says to praise His Name He is not just talking about His power or presence. In Hebrew names have meaning and those whom He chooses to do His will often carry a name that suits the duty they have been chosen to perform or their names describe the individual themselves. Places are often named so as to describe certain things that took place there. We lose this understanding in our language. Look at the Hebrew word HalleluYah. We say it in praise of Elohim but how many realize that that is exactly what the word means. Hallel(Praise) U (ye) Yah (Yahwh)

Oshea(deliverer) the son of Nun was the successor to Moses and lead Israel into the promised land. But before He was given the reins to lead Israel Moses changed his name to Yahwh-Oshea or Yahshua (Yahwh's Deliverer). Do you see the higher meaning? He is mentioned twice in the New Testament (KJV) once in Acts 7:45 and once in Hebrews 4:8. BUT WAIT! They "translated" his name to Iosus (Jesus). Names are not translated they are transliterated as everyone knows. The Strongs #2424 is translated Jesus throughout the New Testament but it is suppose to be the same (transliterated) as the Hebrew #3091 which is Yahshua. The two scriptures above prove that even without a Concordance or any other study aid.

Some say the Hebrew name is Yeshua but Yeshua is Stongs #3442 and means to save or to deliver which is what they say Jesus means. Whereas the Name of our Savior is definitely #3091 meaning Yahwh's deliverance. The savior is not just a deliverer but He is Yahwh's Deliverer, Yahshua. Names have meaning. And we don't say "Jesus the son of Nun" because that is not his name so why call Messiah "Jesus" when that is not His Name?

The Name of God/Elohim is used almost 8000 times in the Old Testament yet it is lost for the titles LORD or GOD. The Name Yahshua in the New Testament is used, I don't know, about 800 times but is rendered Jesus. Why is it that every name is transliterated with the exception of these two? And why would I continue to call on a name that I know is false when Scripture says that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we MUST be saved."? Just like Yahshua the son of Nun lead physical Israel into the physical promise so does Yahshua Messiah lead us, Spiritual Israel, to the Spiritual promise.

To use a known false name is disrespectful and does not place honor where honor is due. Jesus represents false worship like Sunday, Easter, Christmas and other doctrines all of which are pagan. Yahshua represents true worship like His Sabbath, Passover, Feast of Unleavened, Feast of Weeks, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles all of which are Heavenly. Yahwh winks at ignorance but every man will give an account for themselves. Ignorance does not mean you will loose salvation but it can keep a person from taking part in the first resurrection which is reserved for those who "Keep the testimony of Yahshua and the Commandments of Elohim."

I hope this is enough for you to understand my reasoning even if you don't agree with it. Remember that we all have to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

Now back to the New Heaven and New Earth. The thing about arguing bible prophesy is that what will happen is going to happen regardless of whether we have a consensus on it. We have polluted this planet beyond measure in our rebellion and it will be destroyed, as we know it, and I believe it will be done by fire so that it can be made new. But then again why do you need a physical earth when the Kingdom is Spiritual? There is a lot we have to learn for sure.

An interesting coincidence.

We have been discussing inter alia the observance of the Feasts. This evening I read a weblog by a Bible teacher whose writings I keep up with and in his present series on the speeches of Moses in the book of Deuteronomy he is writing about the observance of the Feasts.

As my wife is fond of saying it was a Godincidence. I have linked it here for you and encourage you to read it. It is what I believe about observing these Feasts and their meaning. The one thing I would add to what Stephen says is that the blood of the Passover lamb was applied to the doorposts of the house as well as the lintel (which represents the forehead as Stephen says). The doorposts speak to me of the ears and the ability to hear God's voice when the Life of the Lamb is applied to our minds and hearts enabling us to hear, believe and obey. The forehead is the mind and the ear is the gateway to the heart.


The website itself may be of interest to you since the teacher, Stephen Jones, teaches the Law from a New Covenant perspective.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Ok I read the article

And I agree with most of what he says. But there are two glaring errors that I feel I must point out.

He said: "...Ten days later that glory returned to earth on the day of Pentecost."

I don't know how he could make such a big mistake. Feast of Weeks is called Pentecost because it is fifty (50) days after the first weekly sabbath after Passover. Where He got Ten (10) days from I don't know.

He also said: "...Christ’s resurrection, however, did not resolve this controversy, because in that year (33 A.D.) the preparation day for Passover fell on a Friday, Passover was on Saturday, and the sheaf was thus waved on Sunday, the day after Passover. Therefore, in that year both factions were satisfied."

Please, please read the accounts again. Friday is always the "preparation" for the weekly Sabbath. The Sabbath he is referring to is the first high day Sabbath which began the Feast of Unleavening, not the weekly Sabbath. Yahshua was taken down and put in the tomb on what we call Wednesday evening which was the beginning of the High day Sabbath, the biblical day is from sunset to sunset. Thursday was the High Sabbath that Scripture is referring to here. Friday is always the "preparation" for the Weekly Sabbath. He arose at the end of the weekly Sabbath or Saturday evening or "the beginning of the first day of the week". That is three days and three nights just as Scripture says.

Look at Leviticus 23. Yahshua is the wave sheave of firstfruits. Seven Sabbaths plus one day later brings us to the Feast of Weeks aka Pentecost. Pentecost is the only High Sabbath that will always fall on the same day of the week.

The interval was indeed ten days. It deals with the ascension.

Here is what Stephen actually wrote:

"The glory of God departed in Ezekiel 11:23 as far as the Mount of Olives, where it remained until Jesus’ ASCENSION from that spot (Acts 1:12), taking the glory of God back to heaven. Ten days later that glory returned to earth on the day of Pentecost."

The ten day interval you mention is between the Lord Yashua's ascension and His return in the Spirit. As you say the interval between His resurrection and His return in the Spirit on Pentecost or the Feast of Weeks is fifty days and always falls on Sunday since the wave of the barley sheaf is to take place after the Sabbath following the bringing of the firstfruits of the barley harvest to the priest. This would then take place at the third hour at the time of the morning sacrifice. My understanding is that the barley firstfruits sheaf on this occasion was given to the priest on or before the day of preparation for Passover on which the lambs were sacrificed "between the two evenings" which I believe is between Noon, when the sun passes its meridian, and 6PM. This day would have begun at sunset of the previous day after which time the Lord Yashua shared a last meal with His disciples. Towards the end of this preparation day at 3.01 PM is the day and time when the crucified Lord Yashua died and when the Passover lambs were killed. This actual day in the year of 33 AD was indeed a Friday.

A fuller explanation of this is given in another of Stephen's writings The Laws of the Second Coming in the chapter on Israel's Prophetic Spring Feasts. Here is the link to that chapter:


Insofar as the name of the Feast, whether the seven day period following 14 Abib or Nisan should be called Passover or the Feast of Unleavened Bread, I would agree with you that the 15th. Abib or Nisan is indeed the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is also referred to as Pesach in my Hebrew calendar so to call it Passover seems also to be acceptable. The Passover meal was certainly eaten on the evening that began the 15th. Abib or Nisan.

The key to the conundrum you have presented, with regard to the day of the week on which our Lord was crucified, is the precise dating of the day of preparation for Passover in the year that our Lord was crucified. In addition to the testimony of early witnesses that it was a Friday there is the evidence from the prophecy of Daniel regarding the seventy weeks. Stephen also has a book dealing with this subject since it is the heart of what is called futurism, the eschatological doctrine that holds most of the evangelical churches in thrall. It is a short book and well worth reading if only to refute those who believe that there is a half week still waiting to be fulfilled.


Certainly for me the evidence he presents is conclusive that the Crucifixion took place on a Friday. He also includes other testimony to the precision with which our Father does everything and the exactness with which He performs His Word.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I'm sorry David

But regardless of what ten day period he is talking about it could not be Pentecost. There is no denying that because Pentecost is 50 days from the first Sabbath after Passover. And he clearly says "Ten days later that glory returned to earth on the day of Pentecost." That is wrong. Unless you think He didn't ascend until 40 days after His death which I don't think I believe.

And let me clarify. The day before every Sabbath is the preparation and in this case distinguishing between Friday which is always the preparation for the weekly Sabbath and the preparation for the High Day Sabbath is the issue.

There is an easy way to determine if someone is correct or not in their teaching of Scripture and it is simple. Does it jive with direct quotes from the Father or the Son? And since the Father and Son do not lie then their words always take precedence. So read Matthew 12:40 and you will see that there is no way he was entombed on Friday and rose on Sunday. Otherwise it makes Him a liar and would negate all of Scripture.

So who do you believe, Yahshua or Stephan at Kingdom Ministries? Was it three days and three nights or one day and two nights? You choose who to believe. That's all I can say about that.

Yahshua bless

Acts 1:3

Acts 1:3 To the same apostles also, after his suffering, he presented himself alive with many convincing proofs. He was seen by them over a forty-day period and spoke about matters concerning the kingdom of God.

There has been debate about the meaning of Matthew 12:40 and there are other scriptures that just say three days or on the third day

1 Corinthians 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures,

Matthew 17:23 They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised.” And they became greatly distressed.

Luke 18:33 They will flog him severely and kill him. Yet on the third day he will rise again.”

Acts 10:39 We are witnesses of all the things he did both in Judea and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 10:40 but God raised him up on the third day and caused him to be seen, 10:41 not by all the people, but by us, the witnesses God had already chosen, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

The Jews at that time at least understood time a little differently than we do today and it is my understanding that a part of a day could be counted as a complete day with this way of thinking about time.

There is also the evidence of the early witnesses that Yashua was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday at some time before early dawn as testified by many scriptures. (Luke 24:22, Luke 24:1, Mark 16:2, John 20:1) I accept that this may well have been the previous evening but there is no evidence that I am aware of to prove this. One other possibility may be inferred from a statement made by the apostle Peter:

2 Peter 1:19 Moreover, we possess the prophetic word as an altogether reliable thing. You do well if you pay attention to this as you would to a light shining in a murky place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

The Lord Yashua is referred to as the Morning Star in Revelation and here I believe He is what the apostle is referring to. This is a description of the morning star from Wikipedia:

"Morning star is the name given to the planet Venus when it appears in the east before sunrise (as though heralding the coming of the morning). "Phosphorus" or "Light-Bringer" (Greek Φωσφόρος Phōsphoros) is the ancient Greek mythological name for the planet. It is also named Ἑωσφόρος, Heosphoros, "Dawn-bringer".

For greater certainty the word used by Pater in the Greek is phosphoros which is indeed the morning star as noted above. So just as the Lord Yashua rose before dawn on the third day so He the Morning Star rises in our hearts before the dawn of the Day of the Lord (in our personal experience as well as historically). This would make the time of His Resurrection to coincide with the rising of the morning star in the east.

As I indicated previously there is the evidence from the seventy weeks of Daniel pinpointing the year which I believe makes the timing conclusive. Altogether I believe we can say with conviction that the traditional time is correct. Like you I depend upon scripture as interpreted for me by the Spirit of Truth and He always provides several witnesses according to the Law.

With respect, you have erred on the question of the timing of the Ascension and you have presented only one scripture that APPEARS to contradict the accepted belief that the Crucifixion took place on Friday which is well supported by other scriptures, prophecy from the Tanach and extra Biblical evidence including witnesses from the period in question who were alive at the time. You have then constructed a belief or have accepted a belief that fits with this understanding of the meaning of this one scripture. The Law prescribes two or three witnesses and this applies to the Word of God as well.

One must be very scrupulous in determining the meaning of the Word of God and I believe we must always bear in mind that the scriptures reveal His Mind on all things and He sees things from a heavenly perspective in the Light of His purposes. This is why so many stray from the Truth in Messiah Yashua and why we must always be open to correction.

Thank you for an interesting discussion and I pray that you and I shall continue to grow in grace and truth and in wisdom and stature as the Spirit of the Son enables us.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Ok I see the problem

We are talking about two different ascensions. John 20:17 I was stuck on the initial ascension after his resurrection. Sorry.

The belief that the Jews counted a part of a day as a whole day is totally false and was made up to bolster the erroneous main stream christain teaching of the Friday Crucifixion in the first place.

Also I do not use one Scripture to back my belief on the timing of Passover and the Resurrection. I was merely trying to offer a plain undeniable Scripture. The ones you refer to that say "on the third day" do not contradict the Scripture in Matthew. But there is no Scripture that clearly backs a Friday Crucifixion unless there is already a preconceive notion concerning it.

Finally, I'm sure we agree that we should not think to highly of ourselves that we refuse to "test all things and hold fast to that which is good." It is good to go over these things from time to time to keep us honest and sharp. I will leave it where it is.

I don't like referring to other people because then I fear that I will be held accountable for what they say when I know before hand that I don't agree with anyone 100% and I am affiliated with no particular group. That being said perhaps you could look at www.yrm.org and glean some very insightful information.

Thanks again David

I will check out the web site.

You said: "The doorposts speak to me of the ears and the ability to hear God's voice when the Life of the Lamb is applied to our minds and hearts enabling us to hear, believe and obey. The forehead is the mind and the ear is the gateway to the heart."

I couldn't agree more. We not only hear but we apply what we hear in our lives. All the more reason to memorialize His Passover. Reminds me of a Scripture, I would have to look it up, that goes something like "Not the hearers of the Law are justified but the doers of the Law." That quote may not be verbatim but I'm sure you are familiar with it.

My conversation with you has been a blessing. I hope we both continue to grow in Spirit and in truth as we should.

So we should not celebrate his resurrection, i.e.....

...his triumph over death?

That occurred at Passover, i.e Pesach, i.e Paschen/Pascha, i.e. Easter?


2 Corinthians: 5:16 So then from now on we acknowledge no one from an outward human point of view. Even though we have known Christ from such a human point of view, now we do not know him in that way any longer. 5:17 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away – look, what is new has come! 5:18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation. 5:19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation. 5:20 Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His plea through us. We plead with you on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God!” 5:21 God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.

It was religion that killed the Prince of Peace. Yes it was the Father's Plan that He should die yet it was those who had been given the oracles of God who crucified Him. The nature of man is the same now as it was then. Men love pomp and pageantry and the best seats in the church pews.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. ...4:23 But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. 4:24 God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Makes sense to me. Thank you.

I don't disagree at all.

That said I do not see the harm in celebrating Easter, provided that it's not celebrating pagan things like bunnies and eggs and candy and instead is focused on the savior, His sacrifice for us and His triumph over evil and death and, provided the celebration does not supplant worshiping His spirit and truth as you so quoted.

What jack@ss downvoted this

State WHY you coward.

I voted you down because you are a fat liar!

What you said is a complete falsehood. Whether I am a jackass remains to be determined but you are for sure and without a doubt a LIAR.

Specify the lie specifically.

Or remain the coward you are.

I loved all this but....

This made me feel like I should put one of my humorous posts as a response. Here you go enjoy:

I'm gonna start a political movement. It's going to be based on taking back 'Merica's holidays from non-'Mericans and giving this country back to 'Mericans on our holidays! So who's with me!?

- We are going to take back Halloween and stop the anti-'Mericans trying to use that night to proselytize their silly religious anti-'Merican cults. I'm trying to trick or treat with my kid here dammit! I'm not trying to get the kid to drink the kool-aid! Halloween isn't evil you anti-'Mericans! YOUR EVIL! Why is it Charlie Brown ends up always having a better Halloween than we do? He always got the ROCK, but dammit, at least he doesn't get preached at trying to Trick or Treat for some candy loot!

- We are going to take back Turkey, Native Americans, and Pilgrims for Thanksgiving and stop anti-'Mericans from sabotaging family Thanksgiving dinners with a Tofu turkey and starting their "X-mas" at Nov.1st. I mean, danmmit, I didn't drive over the hills and through the woods to mentally prepare for family fisticuffs and be given a pile of overlycooked mass of soybean as a compensation!

And on that note, I don't want to buy your **** till December! It isn't even me that needs gifts in Christmas! I just want a damn couple of toys for the tots and lie to them that Santa did it because they were good all year. Its the only way they are going to stop being little assholes for 365 days a year when they are in their terrible twos up till age five!


- We are going to take back CHRISTmas. Oh? Don't like the fact I used "CHRISTmas" anti-'Merican? To bad. That's OUR holiday, an 'MERICAN holiday. It officially turned 'Merican when George Washington used the day to put some bulletholes in an army of Hessians in Trenton and Princton for helping the king's lobsterback redcoats. Ever since that holy day, you got your baby Jesus, your tree, your Santa, and you also have your paintings of Washington crossing the river and displaying his cock to silly statist anti-'Mericans and giving real 'Mericans a day off.

You too anti-'Merican to comply with messing up our holidays? Then don't be lame and go to work on the holidays or deport your ass. Second, expect a legally permitted punch in the face if your a neo-con, vegan, or militant lefits athiest and don't comply and decide to scew with 'Mericans way of life. Second, you automatically get impeached if you hold an elected office.

Vote for the 'Merica party! Cause we are GOING to party!