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Vortex Math - you have got to see this.

My Tesla Trip landed me at the doorstep of Vortex Math.

Anyone who saw "Thrive" will appreciate that connection - the torus is indeed worth studying. Marko Rodin developed this course, but he is too smart to talk to folks like me. He has a student, Randy Powell, who makes it very understandable. I have been working my way through these videos, but yesterday a comment caught my eye... WOW - the "Vortex math" diagram will be on screen when you click the link. I did not even notice as I was trying to learn math, but someone in the comments did. Ever seen that symbol before?


Now DO NOT dismiss this thread over me pointing out the symbol. That is a fascinating coincidence, but this thread is about what they are teaching. It is "the new math" we all heard about but never learned and we really deserve to know.

Combine this with "The Electric Universe" and we are not in Kansas any more, Toto. A new level of consciousness is right there - no hoodoo voodoo, no prayer and fasting, just a willingness to learn.

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Again I ask

What am I trying to debunk? That this mysterious coil can provide free energy? I can't disprove that because such a statement is non-falsifiable.

It is up to the coil-makers to prove that this coil can provide free energy, contrary to the current laws of physics. The laws of physics are not set in stone, they are just observations of our universe which have so far never been violated by experiment.

I never called you stupid, or bad at math. But I must ask you to stop falling back to the fallacious argument that because I disagree with you I have "tuned out" or am just not "curious" or think the Vortex math people are "kooks". Once again, you are implying that if I just opened my mind enough I would see the truth of these claims, or admit their possibility.

I consider reality objectively, and with an open mind. And after examining these videos, I have dismissed them as hooey. They contradict everything I have learned about physics, number theory, and spiritualism, therefore I have reasoned against it. If you can't accept the fact that people may have different opinions than yourself, then it is you who has the closed mind.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.

I don't care if you open your mind or not, and you are free to open your mouth and let all the nonsense you can think of pour out. However, DECIDING this is bunk without any rationale is not science, it is not open minded, it is not seeking truth. It is clinging to a world view. If you found "hooey" in the videos, tell me what it was. You have yet to name a single thing in these videos that YOU hav proven to be in error.
As for me, I have now finished the first series. I don't understand it all, but I am going to make a coil and see what it does. THAT is what curiosity and a willingness to give new ideas a chance can do for a person - leave them willing to try new things. Here is what honesty does - if I get this built and find it does nothing, I will come right back here and tell you and everyone here. However, I played this game with HHO. My husband built one, installed it, and we ran our car on diesel and water for a year, got 25% improvement in gas mileage, and fried an alternator. (We will try again, we just have not had time to build the improved model.) When I see this topic brought up here, people take an attitude like yours - they don't believe it so it must not be true. My personal experience means nothing to anyone but me, so I encourage others to try these things for themselves. Generally, they prefer arrogance to experimentation.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.


You said: "However, DECIDING this is bunk without any rationale is not science, it is not open minded, it is not seeking truth."

That is the most bullsheit thing I have heard in this thread so far. I have a perfectly good rationale for dismissing this pseudoscience. It's called the laws of thermodynamics and electromagnetism. All the mystical BS Rodin and his pals spout might be able to convince you that his coils violate these laws, but anyone with even a modest knowledge of physics can see it is just a fancy electromagnet that does not generate any extra or "free" energy.

And yes, I dismiss HHO as well. Partially because it violates everything we know about thermodynamics, but mostly because anyone who claims to have built an engine which runs on HHO (IOW water) won't let it get examined by impartial skeptics. Is it because it only runs if you believe in it? Hogwash. Your claim that you ran a car on HHO for a year means nothing to me. I do not need to build a coil myself to understand this, nor do I need to build an HHO engine to understand this. That is the wondrous miracle of the transmission of knowledge. Everyone doesn't need to learn everything by experience. Much of what you learn, you can read about or have taught to you.

I am not being closed minded. I am taking the entire spectrum of things I have learned about this universe and how it works, and applying it to these claims of physics and electromagnetism, and am convinced it is false. In fact it is you who are being arrogant in this situation; insisting that anyone who dismisses these ideas must be closed-minded and resistant to what you consider truth. You need to be more open-minded and entertain the possibility that all of what you are talking about is just a hoax. If you can't do that, you are being closed-minded!

I am all done with you, then.

Understand, I have spent a life trying to explain things to people who are generally not as smart as I am. Sorry, but I was "that kid" in school, and eventually one learns to accept that usually, you will be smarter than your boss and if you want to keep your job, you'd better not let it show very often. I know what I know because I did it, you decide what you know. Best of luck to you in life.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

So basically

... all of your arguments boil down to: It's only because you aren't as smart as I am that you disagree with me.

I'm glad you're "done with me" then. It was getting rather difficult to stomach your self-righteous, condescending and arrogant attitude.

Good day to you.

I suggest you re-read all your comments first

before you label others' as condescending.

Everyone who has differing opinions on these subjects seems to be UNIFORMLY lashing out with negativity defending Established beliefs and I personally find it quite laughable that these same people are found here on the DP where we've seen countless examples of Ron Paul lashed out against by the Establishment.

The hypocrisy is blinding.

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience"—Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Too funny

It is absolutely incredible that you are comparing a political "establishment" with the "establishment" of thermodynamic and electromagnetic law. One of these things is based upon prevailing ideology that changes at the whim of the elite, while the other is based upon centuries of careful observation and experimentation. I'll leave it up to you to decide which is which.

RP is anti-stupid. He's not anti-science.

I'm laughing harder than you are.

Keep the insults coming. I'm sure one day you'll convince me you had a point.

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience"—Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

I have seen these in their entirety a couple times.

And I was still disappointed. Same with Thrive. They take a sound principle (like the known relationships between all non-3, non-zero integers and the actually fascinating attributes of the torus) and then they mix in lots of spiritual, frequency, energy, mystic connections. With this, they get lots of people to say the 'ah ha' and magically absorb the mythical with the factual.

I really hate tossing Thrive in with this but after lots of research, I found that their ultimate end game is not a set of actual steps to work towards but yet another generalized list of problems. This was as disappointing as learning that of the Wayseers and Zeitgeist was. There simply seems to be an abundance (no pun on Zeitgeist) of organizing and looking for solutions and a tragic scarcity of real-world solutions that can be begun.

This brings me to the whole Tesla thing. Yes, he was a great man. He was way ahead of his time (no pun on the book title) and yes he invented many things we didn't understand at the time. However, his stuff is now almost completely understood (even HAARP), at least in theory. He never suggested free energy. He offered mechanisms that could be built cheaply to wirelessly transmit non-free energy to the masses, kind of like our cell phones work today. That's a big improvement but even he readily admitted that it's not efficient (it loses up to 70% of the original energy) and can't pay for its initial cost. That said, it did expand the future knowledge of many technologies greatly. What people should take away from his achievements are things like his highly efficient bladeless turbine (still running Niagara Falls today), his AC, radar, x-ray, remote control, radio, neon, harmonic and other developments. IMHO, we should have a national holiday for this man because those were that important.

Unfortunately, there are so many uneducated hobby physicists that believe in all the free-energy conspiracy stuff that nothing must be proven to work anymore. This may sound harmless but in fact, it is undermining the real development of completely clean, highly efficient and very cheap home energy systems that do have validity.

I appreciate the thought out reply

Yet you throw out the math because they see other connections that make you uncomfortable, you stop listening? Not once have I said "free energy." I mentioned a lifelong fascination with magnets, perceiving that energy as "free enough" - a play on words. "Free energy" means one thing in economics, another thing entirely in physics. In physics, I absolutely agree that no source of free energy is known to exist. But that is a very different statement from "there is no such thing as free energy" which I hear experts say over, and over, and over... It is close minded - never say "never" and all that. And I have yet to see where Tesla claimed "free energy" in the physics sense, but he certainly DID have a plan to offer free energy to the people in the economic sense.
I also share your frustration with the lack of "action plans" out of these groups, I quit listening to AJ because he ONLY gives the bad news, he flatly refuses to tell tales of people doing the RIGHT thing, or to organize any meaningful protest. I have come to suspect that the only action plan that CAN work is the one that is modeled on self reliance. If Mark and I pull off our biodome / food forest, then perhaps our neighbors will hear what we say. Currently, we are written off - compared to the established farms around here we are laughable, pathetic little patch of weeds with a couple cows and chickens running around. Yet we know what we know, whether we ever get the time and money to bring it to manifestation remains to be seen, but it is a real solution. So, I suggest you "be the change you want to see" and lets just get things done as individuals, and see if we make a movement of solutions that way.
Oh, and there are a few videos of these coils in action. That is what Rodin did with this, made a new kind of coil that has some clear advantages, it lacks practical application at this point. But there are a whole bunch of young men playing with these, they will come up with something is my bet.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Completely agree

I didn't throw out the math. I have a minor degree in math and I love its simplicity and exactness. I also love this trick of non-3's, the tricks of 3's, the trick of 5's and a few others that have been missed by the education system. I merely threw out the unnecessary connections he uses to tie these commonly unknown math principles to those other mystic type attributes I listed. I wasn't denigrating you for your enjoyment of it but merely cautioning against getting focused on this as being new math (it really isn't) or similar things like rodin coils or magnets. They're fun to play with but misleading as to what is really going on.

Sure, magnets have the same attraction (pun INTENDED) in that they're absolutely magical to play with and to visualize ways they can be used to achieve new results, but one must realize that they are not a source of energy or work. They are a high efficiency battery for physical force, that's all. If you push them together, they will yield that same push back apart. Reversed, if you let them attract, you must impart the same EXACT work to pull them apart. This is the case in every configuration, but often times it becomes very hard to find the total of work done on them to get this balance calculated correctly. This means that many people are easily swayed into thinking perpetual motion, over-unity and zero point energy systems can exist. I'm not accusing you of being in that category, but showing that your level of excitement usually results in that thinking.

Is this closed minded? No, I don't think so. I happen to be the most open minded person I know but I also happen to do the most in-depth research on these things of anyone I know too. This has led me to be a very cynical optimist. I'm initially optimistic until I find the trick and then I'm very critical of the person or the process. If I don't find a trick or other downside, then I become an avid promoter. An example is that I'm against cold fusion. Not because there's a trick because I think it does work, but because the equipment, regulation, controls, maintenance and security to make it work in the home would make it more expensive than where solar is heading. Sad to say but cost ranks above the 'free-ness' of energy.

I must commend your suspicion of self reliance being the only solution because mine is similar. In researching and debating that for the last 5 years, I have fostered plans for making every need of the average family completely self sustainable and the majority of wants can also be either self or locally sustainable. This covers all the basics of food, shelter, water, energy and the extras like information, communication, education, security, transportation, employment, government and exchange. I have partnered with those doing what I can't and coordinated with others already working on the rest. Each of them were tackled the same way you are growing your food. Take each step and isolate a problem, solve it by yourself, modify it so as to be locally / independently sustainable, and implement it to test.

There's no magic in any of them. No claims that people can't or won't believe. Put simply, there's no controversy. Even if they could be made to work, that would become an impediment to their adoption. However, to put most of them in place requires that the others be available too. (You can't suggest aquaponics without aquaculture existing first, right?) For this reason, they're taking a little time. But don't worry, it's coming together much faster than initially predicted and when it does, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. PM me if you want any further info.

New properties deserve explored, in my opinion

I am NOT looking for "free energy"- I am looking to learn why energy behaves differently when wire is configured in this manner. To that end, I will make a coil. I will KNOW what I know and everyone else can keep guessing. These guys showed something unusual, I want to know more. (And by "more" - I really don't mean anyone else's opinion, no matter how learned. I want INFORMED opinions, which means "I built one, and this is what happened.")

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

The man himself summed it up

"There is such a thing as “inertia of human opinion” resisting revolutionary ideas.”


"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

Useless playing with numbers

There are lots of ways to play with numbers to get 'amazing' results.

We use single digits 1-9 because we have ten fingers... so, we use base ten. My guess is that this would happen to work for any even based number system (base 2,4,6,8, etc.)... but probably not for base 7.

It reveals a pattern because it is built on a pattern. There is nothing mystical happening here.

Using base 2, you may count from 0 till 2 to the power of 10.

Using just one hand you may easily sign 0 to 31. Here it is (1 minute): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAQaRwW72jI

Here is 0 to 1023 (2 minutes): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I2j-s...

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul


Could it not be true that we have 10 fingers BECAUSE of the fundamental numeric design of the Universe, and our bodies are manifested with these fundamental principles?

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience"—Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Not impossible - but highly unlikely!

Can you name any other cases where 10 is significant?

It could

But it's impossible to disprove such a claim. I choose to believe in the simplest explanation: that our base 10 number system arose because of the number of you fingers, rather than an unknown force in the universe guiding us to have 10 fingers because that number is somehow special.

The number 10 doesn't exist. No numbers exist. All are just abstract concepts.

Our Universe is patterns upon patterns.

They are not claiming to be mystics, they are trying to show you math. As I said above, debunk the math, not the men, and you will have my respect.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

It is useless math

What would I use this for?

Too often

Humans tend to see patterns where there actually are none.

There are so many mystical claims made by this man, you really need to let us know what we should be trying to debunk. Because I have no idea how this math supports his preposterous conclusions.

The fact that all multiples of 3 or 9 can be reduced to a single digit multiple of three in base 10 proves what, exactly? That the world is secretly run by Masons? That faster than light travel is possible? That the name of God can be found by drawing lines inside a circle?

I'm not being facetious. I really want to know how you make the leap from a few fancy number tricks (limited to base 10) to a secret code that underpins the universe.

It is the Masonic Emblem

No one else finds this a most intriguing synchronicity?

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

And if you look at through my eyes:

The first thing I saw was the V W symbol for Volkswagon.

I love my country
I am appalled by my government

That is what I saw, but

the first thing I watched was an interview, where Rodin likened it to the VW emblem so I was pre-disposed to see it.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

I'm seeing a DreamWeaver.

or a Salmon net!

Maybe the last one is because it's lunchtime.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.