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3 Good Examples of Bible Errancy

- Daniel 12:2 raises the prospect of a third class of people, who will not be resurrected to a glorious afterlife, nor to an inglorious punishment, but will simply stay dead. This is not in keeping with the traditional Christian teaching on such matters, which is based on passages like John 5:28-29

UPDATE: Kudos to tfichter who has succeeded in finding a potentially valid resolution for Daniel 12:2 by using a different original language literal translation than the one I used. "tfichter"'s comment can be found here:
- http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2857934

However, because Gods chosen translators/linguists were apparently unable to correctly translate this verse for modern day Bibles, a red flag needs to be raised, that perhaps Gods original choice of words for this verse was less than perfect. Remember, God claims to have invented the languages and to know the future (this supposedly all-knowing God would therefore have foreseen this ambiguity). And how many of even todays Christians in third world countries could reasonably be expected to search out the correct meaning of this verse? Most of them do not even have access to the Internet. And we still do not know with certainty that tflichter's explanation is the correct one. It's almost as if the Bible was soliciting to receive a black eye here (this seems woefully sloppy).

- The Bible (apparently regardless of which translation we look at) clearly contradicts itself regarding Jesus' last words on the cross:
Luke 23:46 ""Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last."
John 19:30 ""It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

Note: There Can Only Be One Final Phrase Uttered. Neither of the above two verses were stated in context to possibly be the second or third to the last phrase uttered by Jesus, but rather the final phrase uttered.

- God's name Yahweh, was given to Abraham (in Genesis), and yet later (in Exodus) was stated to have been kept from Abraham and others:
Genesis 15:7 "And he said to him [Abram], I am Yahweh who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."
Exodus 6:3 "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob [each individually], as God Almighty, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them."
[The reader can verify the use of the name Yahweh in these verses from the original Hebrew using the online Interlinear translation at http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm ]

Bonus: Christian Bible Scholar Reluctantly Says Jesus Did Not Die On Cross

- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7849852/Jesus-did-n...


The Positive Message Behind This Post:

Many organized religions, including those stemming from Christianity/The Bible, have misrepresented the most important thing in the universe, which of course is love. Without understanding the true principles of love in the proper context, humanity is helplessly hindered from achieving world peace.

This is why I wrote the article "Sowing The Seeds For A Peace Revolution". It offers the opportunity for the general public to properly understand the truth of this matter. People really ought to read this article in its entirety:

- http://www.dailypaul.com/241312/sowing-the-seeds-for-a-peace...

It is well and good if people wish to offer their two cents regarding the 3+ prospective Bible contradictions discussed throughout this thread. However, MORE THAN A THOUSAND TIMES OF GREATER IMPORTANCE is correctly understanding and applying the true essence of love.

So who then will be the first Christian to acknowledge that to this end I have INDEED spoken the truth?



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GoodSamaritan's picture

A baby?

There are numerous verses in the Bible that describe God's merciful nature, but where do you see in the Bible that babies are the most deserving of mercy?

I will add, God's mercy does not negate His justice. If He has predestined certain people to be saved and others not to be saved, that is His business and who are we to judge Him?

"You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, “He did not make me”; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, “He has no understanding”? Isaiah 29:16

"You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" Romans 9:19-21

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

Yup a baby.

Christ came into this world as the perfect sacrifice as a BABY. He didn't come down from the clouds as a fully grown adult. Why? Because he was the perfect sacrifice, the most deserving of mercy and and love. He was the most defenseless at birth, the same way all babies are. Common sense tells me that babies are the most deserving of mercy because they all are defenseless and human, just like Christ was at birth. Who or what in your opinion is more deserving of mercy than a baby?

So now you are going to start with Exodus and the sins of the parents shall visit the sons to 3rd and 4th generation to justify God's killing of pregnant women and babies according to the Bible. Spare me that argument, please. It would be perverse enough if God did it Himself, but He did not. His most chosen People were told to slaughter women and babies without mercy through hearsay intermediaries. Is this your God of mercy? These People were bloodthirsty warmongers hellbent on wholesale murder, and to justify it to their soldiers, they put "Thus saith the Lord" in front of their numerous slaughter decrees. Except however, in the case in Numbers31 where they spared the 32,000 virgins to be kept alive for themselves for later use. Consistency indeed. Consistently bad.

GoodSamaritan's picture

No one deserves mercy

As you indicated, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, the most deserving of mercy of love. But that was true because He is God in the flesh - not because he entered the world as a baby.

"as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God;" Romans 3:10-11

Mercy is not getting what we deserve; grace is getting what we don't deserve.

As for visiting sins to the 3rd and 4th generation, you should continue reading a little further: "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:4-6

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

Does that means that all is O.K.?

In other words, babies in general are not deserving of mercy by God or their being spared the edge of the sword by Israel. These slaughtered babies got what they deserved according to you. Were sparing the 32,000 virgins alright also, or do you see no inconsistency there either? Is a baby not deserving of mercy? Who or what is the most deserving of mercy in this world? I guess that you consider that question irrelevant. Is a baby more deserving of mercy then say a known axe murderer? Would you just flip a coin to decide which one lives?

GoodSamaritan's picture

I don't live under the Old Covenant

and I didn't make up God's Laws. This is the New Testament (or New Covenant), a covenant of Grace. What you see as atrocities in the Old Testament is life under a covenant of Law. In that world people had to keep God's Laws or pay the price. The Old Testament reveals sin and God's attitude toward it. It's patently obvious from Old Testament examples that no fallen human can keep God's Laws.

1 Corinthians 10:6-11 tells us why the Old Testament was given to us:

"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

Jesus brought us a way to peace with God wherein we can be justified through faith in Him because He was able to keep the Law perfectly.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-11

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

As you say, we are living in the New Testament.

Then we will go back to Ananias and Sapphira. They were slaughtered just like they were still in the Old Testament, without hesitation, mercy, or even a chance to redeem themselves. Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection meant nothing for their fate. Ergo, Jesus died for all mankind except for those two who were not redeemable. Even those wretched money-changers in the Temple were not struck down like this couple was. The Almighty must have momentarily lapsed back into His Old Testament ways of immediate justice just long enough to kill them instead of saying "go and sin no more" like He said to the prostitute. So God was a brutal God in the Old Testament, killing babies, pregnant women, and kids, but sometimes not the virgins. Then in the New Testament by the sacrifice made by Christ, He is now reconciled as a God of peace, except for those two meaningless little people, Ananias and Sapphira, who held back a little money. The Almighty had no other way to deal with them except to kill them.

It is astounding to me that the inconsistency with the taking these two people's lives is not also astounding to you. This story was written by some priest who wanted to scare everyone into not holding back any money from the church for fear of also being struck down. I do not believe that God committed this nor any other violent act that is ascribed to Him. People committed these crimes against humanity in the name of God in an attempt to justify the slaughtering, raping, and pilfering. If someone told me to kill in the name of God, I would immediately know they that were not conveying any secret revelation from God.

GoodSamaritan's picture

Do you see Apostles raising the dead in 2012?

Obviously that period, when the Church was being established, was a unique period in New Covenant history. At a time when the Holy Spirit was giving extraordinary power to the Apostles for spreading the Gospel by allowing them to confirm their witness with miracles, Ananias and Sapphira were making a mockery of God's work.

They were hypocrites who held God in contempt. They had no concept of His power, that He is able to see what people do in secret and reveal it to others. They were exposed as unbelievers who had no fear of God. Their sudden death served as a warning and reminder to the Church of how God views sin. "And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things." Acts 5:11

If the hypocrisy of Ananias and Sapphira had succeeded in fooling the Apostles, they would have destroyed their authority and their claim to infallibility. The fact that the Holy Spirit revealed their secret to Peter helped to further establish that God was the source of their message.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

O.K., I'm starting to get it now.

Ananias and Sapphira [to quote you] "were hypocrites who held God in contempt. They had no concept of His power, that He is able to see what people do in secret and reveal it to others. They were exposed as unbelievers who had no fear of God."

Thus, such terrible and miserable people are put to death immediately. I am with you this far. So liars who hold God in contempt are put to death irregardless of the Jesus' sacrifice to redeem everyone else. Got it.

However, now I'm no longer with you. Why are murderers and persecutors of Christians, God's new chosen People rewarded? Enter Saul of Tarsus who [to now paraphrase you] "was a hypocrite who held God in contempt. He had no concept of His power, that He is able to see what people do in secret and reveal it to others. He was exposed as an unbeliever who had no fear of God."

If liars are killed without mercy, then murders killing Christians certainly would be too. No, I'm wrong again. Saul gets a miracle on the road to Damascus, he is not held accountable by God for any of the murders he committed against these Christians, and finally he gets to write many books of the New Testament.

Liars are worse than murderers by this comparison post crucifixion. Liars are put to death without mercy and given no time to redeem themselves. Murderers not only get a second chance, they are greatly rewarded by God. Another astounding biblical inconsistency, IMO.

GoodSamaritan's picture

Actually, you're not even close to getting it

You picked out the weakest argument and completely ignored the critical ones on either side of it. That tells me you're not really interested in understanding why their lives were taken when other followers of Jesus Christ, with even more egregious sins, were apparently left alone.

You didn't even "get" the weakest argument since, among other reasons, you're still under the delusion that Jesus came to save everyone when there is abundant Scripture that clearly says otherwise.

In addition, you don't understand the difference in Saul's spiritual condition and legal standing before God subsequent to his conversion.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

Not the weakest argument. It is the most blatant.

Where are there other examples of people being murdered directly by God in the New Testament? I do not believe that there are any others. That is why this story is so blatant. God directly killed these people in the New Testament, post Jesus' resurrection. The power of God was used to kill these people directly and without mercy. In the Old Testament, this slaughter of humanity was nearly always done by men believing that they were doing God's work by rendering-out unmerciful justice in the name of the Lord. Some Old Testament examples of God killing directly without intermediaries was during Noah and the flood (God at least said that He would not do such a thing ever again.) and Sodom & Gomorrah.

Your telling me that I do not understand the Bible is condescending. So you know it better than I. You may be in too deep and cannot see the forest for the trees. You believe that your way in the only way of interpreting the changeable meanings of words. The fact that we are arguing about the Bible means that it is subjective and that it can be interpreted many different ways with no one way being the absolute correct way. Believe and accept that.

Babies

Herein is a dilemma. Many religions agree, folks die because of Adams sin. Religions make going to Heaven a works based thing. If your good works outweigh your bad (sins), you go to heaven. Right?

A baby that dies at birth or before, (miscarried, aborted, ect...) dies for Adams sin yet has done nothing to earn Heaven. Where does that child go?

Nor has that child done anything to deserve mercy.

The Old Testament has several references of God wiping out whole cities with the children. If God is a merciful God, (and I say that he is) then how can he kill children and babies and be merciful?

Romans 5:12-17 "

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (babies don't know they sinned, but they do)

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

So babies are covered by Gods mercy because of what Jesus Christ did. They did not ask for it because they can't so the decision is made for them. God is therefore just because of Jesus' sacrifice.

The rest of us that live long enough to realize that we have sinned against God are accountable for those sins. The difference between an adult and a child is the adult must "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Adams

To say that the God who is

To say that the God who is infinite love, wisdom, mercy, and innocense would predestine any human being to eternal suffering is is a gross error to say the least. God wills the salvation of everyone, and provides the means. He will not interfere in human freedom though, because freedom is necessary for true love to occur. To say that God foresees the destiny of every individual is NOT to say he wills or causes it.

GoodSamaritan's picture

God is all those things, but He is also a Judge Who hates sin

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30

"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad — in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls — she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Romans 9:11-18

"What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened," Romans 11:7

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:3-12

And there are many more verses that clearly show God not only foreseeing our futures, but determining where those futures will be spent.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

No desire for good/truth.

Whoever downvoted this, shame on you. You lack understanding of the infinitely loving and wise God. One of THE greatest errors in understanding the Word, is attributing evil acts to God. It leads to the greatest heresies, and gives zealots the excuse to commit horrendous acts because they believe God wills and condones it, and does the same.

GoodSamaritan's picture

Love the subtitle

"Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible". LOL

There's nothing "hidden" in a book that's been examined in excruciating detail by billions of people over nearly 20 centuries.

Every supposed contradiction has been answered ad nauseum.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

Ha. You are joking about this aren't you?

Perhaps "every supposed contradiction has been answered ad nauseum" to your satisfaction, which is minimal IMO. There are also billions of people that do not accept whatever simplistic answers that have given over the years to explain the blatant contradictions and inconsistencies contained in the Bible.

You have at least started out along the right path.

To believe that God exists is the beginning. To believe that He is REAL and that you can have a RELATIONSHIP with Him is the next and indispensable step.

This step is not a voluntary one in spite of what the Christian churches teach about Man being a free moral agent and "making a decision for Christ". The revealed truth in the scriptures is that no one can truly know the REALITY of God unless God reveals Himself to them. This is simply a matter of the Sovereignty of God and there is nothing anyone can do about it. This should not discourage anyone from seeking Him since He will reveal Himself to those who do so with an honest heart and diligently.

Rico Cabeza means Rich Head in Spanish so if this is a pseudonym it may mean that you see yourself as being rich in head knowledge. Consider this:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will thwart the cleverness of the intelligent.” 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world foolish? 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching. 1:22 For Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks ask for wisdom, 1:23 but we preach about a crucified Christ, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. 1:24 But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."

The scriptures call the Lord Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace and indeed He is. However He Himself said to His disciples:

Matthew: 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword. 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 10:36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

Luke 12:51 Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division! 12:52 For from now on there will be five in one household divided, three against two and two against three. 12:53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

So do not imagine that the scriptures are full of contradictions without reason. God has a purpose in everything He does.

Proverbs: 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

In this matter of seeking the truth you have a very long way to go but keep at it. One day you will feel very foolish about the things you have written but we all have to go through this humiliation. The way up is down, the way over is under.

Luke: 22:25 So Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ 22:26 Not so with you; instead the one who is greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the one who serves. 22:27 For who is greater, the one who is seated at the table, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is seated at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

Matthew: 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 23:2 “The experts in the law and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat. 23:3 Therefore pay attention to what they tell you and do it. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 23:4 They tie up heavy loads, hard to carry, and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing even to lift a finger to move them. 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by people, for they make their phylacteries wide and their tassels long. 23:6 They love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues 10 23:7 and elaborate greetings in the marketplaces, and to have people call them ‘Rabbi.’ 23:8 But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers. 23:9 And call no one your ‘father’ on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 23:10 Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one teacher, the Christ. 23:11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 23:12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Cyril's picture

Sigh. Inconsistencies? Maybe but I just wish we'd leave it alone

Sigh. Inconsistencies? Maybe. But I just wish we'd leave the Bible alone for a moment. Or the Qu'ran. Or whatever other texts help people in their hearts carry the burden of our GOVERNMENTS injustice.

Eager to see horrors where the Bible had no role to play BUT GOVERNMENTS ALWAYS DID ALL ALONG? Help yourself :

http://www.dailypaul.com/253314/democide-death-by-government

Eager to read about MOUNTAINS OF INCONSISTENCIES, IN PAGES BY THE TONS, ALONG WITH FALLACIES, LIES without any need to even NITPICK on higher spiritual interpretations? Help yourself :

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/legis/latest/index.htm

http://www.loc.gov/search/?q=enforcement&fa=original_format%...

Peace.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I think there is some misunderstandings....

If you want (maybe it is like trying to convince Obama/Romney that they are wrong, you need to want to learn) you can find answers to all of your questions in this great website: http://www.truthaboutdeath.com

Nicely documented, very well done...

A good way to defend your freedoms: www.libertymagazine.org

SteveMT's picture

The errancy of the Bible is more like inconsistencies. 4 here.

1. The devil, Lucifer: He was an angel in heaven with limited powers like the other angels. He rebels against God, is thrown out of heaven, and he lands here. Suddenly his powers increase, and Lucifer's powers now rival God's so much so that he is able to destroy the mind of God's greatest and newest creation.

2. Ananias and Sapphira: Of all of the stories in the Bible, this one is the most wretched. This husband and wife sold their land, and they gave their money to the church. However, they held back a little, and they lied about it. Peter puts them both to death using the power of God for this lying, the same Peter who lied 3 times about ever knowing Christ. God forgives Peter, but Peter does not forgive this couple for holding back some money of all things.

3. The tower of Babel: God confounds the people who are building this tower by giving them languages so that they cannot understand one another. God then uses these same words and languages to write the Bible knowing that words themselves can be misinterpreted, losing and changing their meaning with time.

4. Our salvation is based on hearsay: If someone gets a revelation from God, it is for them alone. If they tell someone else, it is hearsay. The person hearing this account is not obligated to believe it, especially when it involves their eternal salvation. God gave us minds to question everything. God would communicate with everyone, and let them decide on their own without intermediaries. He would not selectively choose just a few to tell all of the others, especially when involving the killing the women, pregnant women, and babies.

SteveMT's picture

I am humbled by the once -7 votes now going to neutral.

This is some kind of minor miracle at least. I'm in search of the truth. That is all. This big change in the net vote count tells me that there are members out there who are in search of the same thing. Appreciated.

SteveMT's picture

I apologize to all those offended by my post.

I am only trying to find out the truth by using the mind that the Almighty gave me to ask questions. These questions concern a priori knowledge about God. God must be consistent, and God must be logical. If He is not both, then it would not make much sense to worship someone who would be otherwise. An inconsistent and an illogical God could throw someone into Hell without due process or kill someone without reason. God's logic and consistency should be reflected in His dealings with man, His most divine creation. If someone gives me a book and says that it is from God, it had better be logical and consistent. If the book is both, then there is at least a possibility that it did indeed have divine origins. However, if the book is inconsistent and illogical, then it cannot be from God.

I doubt that

anyone was offended.

It appears that one of your problems with this is that you don't read carefully, but only skim the material, making it into a mere overlay to what you already think you believe. There is nothing offensive about that, it just doesn't help you any.

I see someone beat me to respond after I already typed this...

I see someone beat me to respond after I already typed this. but I'll post it anyways.

1. I see no mention of increase in power.
You are also missing the fact that Lucifer did not act outside of God's sovereign will; It's as if Lucifer is on a chain, a vicious dog owned by God, and God puts up signs "beware of dog, keep out, danger" and people disobey God and put themselves in danger. People have vicious dogs for a reason. He's no more a rival to God than a dog to it's owner, and in Jude 9 it even teaches to give a measure of respect to the devil, after all he is still God's property.

2. Peter didn't kill them, they fell dead miraculously, and the crime wasn't holding back money, the crime was trying to deceive the holy spirit. if that is their crime, then all of the supposed good you mention that they've done had evil motives. Since God is the giver of life, it is his prerogative to take it as he did in this case.

3. God accomplished his goals consistently. He foiled the tower, and the result provided other means for his followers to be involved in ministry and critical thinking. Also, The bible teaches that God has purposes for withholding his teaching from people at times, it teaches that he gives people over to their own sins and lets them fall into their own pits at times. Did you ever stop to think that God might have a purpose for doing things the way he did?

4. Although some special revelation might be considered hearsay, Romans 1 teaches about the sufficiency of general revelation, such as the created world around us in conveying truths of God. Also, when you have multiple witness accounts, it's a little more than hearsay, otherwise courts wouldn't function. Persuasive arguments are important, but there is more to belief than that. Romans 1:18 shows that people actively suppress the truth in unrighteousness, so there are biases in play which would diminish the effect of valid arguments. Saying "God would do such and such" has no basis, its considered idolatry to make a God to suit yourself. It assumes that God would do things your way and that he couldn't have a deeper purpose than you perceive.

GoodSamaritan's picture

No inconsistencies

1. Where do you find in Scripture that Lucifer’s powers increased after his rebellion to rival the infinite power of God? All he did was tempt Eve with a half-truth. The rest was up to her, and Adam.

2. The comparison with Peter’s lie is apples to oranges. This story is proof that God looks on the heart and not outward appearances. Ananias and Sapphira were shown to be unbelievers who liked to make a public showing of their religiosity while making a mockery of God’s work in the early Church. Peter was a true follower of Jesus Christ who had already been justified by his faith. God revealed to Peter what they were doing and He – not Peter – took their lives. Otherwise, their continued lies would have undermined the authority of the Apostles.

3. Again, apples to oranges. Their languages were confounded because they refused to obey God’s command to spread throughout the earth. The inability to communicate between family groups forced them to abandon the tower, which represented their defiance. Had they done what God told them to do there would have been no reason for Him to multiply languages.

4. You presume to know better than God how He should have revealed His plan of salvation. He promised Adam and Eve that He would send a Savior to restore what they so foolishly lost. In effect, God did tell everyone – personally – because He told our first parents. It was their obligation to pass that promise along to their children.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

Addressing some of your points

1. 2 Corinthians 4:4 - Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe.

Satan IS the god of this world. He was not a god when he was in heaven. Satan also rules over the 1/3 of the angles in heaven who were also cast out with him according to most interpretations of Revelation. Satan did not rule over them in heaven before his expulsion. Ergo, Satan's powers increased.

Revelation 12:3-4,9 - Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky, and he threw them to the earth.
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

2. Jesus died for all sinners, but not apparently for Ananias and Sapphira? Why? Murderers, whores, thieves, even tax collectors, yes, but not for Ananias and Sapphira? Peter struck these people down using the power of God, the same God that he denied three times even existed. John8:7 - "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Peter who was guilty of the same lies X 3 did cast that first stone. Lies are lies. Apples are apples here. You are playing with words. The army of Israel slayed tribes without mercy and out of existence at the expressed command of God through the supposed communication with selective prophets and Him (hearsay). God did not do this butchery himself (why?). They did it in the name of God.

4. I presume nothing except to put beliefs to the test. If God presented himself illogically, not very many would believe in Him. If God revealed Himself to some and not to others, He would not expect these others to believe the same way as the ones that He directly revealed Himself to, nor should He judge them in the same way. If He did, then He would be inconsistent and illogical. How are we suppose to tell the difference between true revelations and charlatans? The answer is by testing everything hearsay to see if it passes the test of consistency. God would never tell you to tell me anything. He would tell me directly. Then the onus would be on me to believe it. If you told me this revelation, I would not be judged by my rejecting hearsay information.

More perhaps later.

GoodSamaritan's picture

Still no inconsistencies

1. Satan became a “god” only in the sense that Adam abdicated his position as titular head of Creation when he willfully submitted to Satan’s authority by trusting his word above God’s. No additional supernatural power was given to Satan – it was strictly a temporary transfer of authority. Satan was defeated by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ:

“Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.” So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, “An angel has spoken to Him.” Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” John 12:27-31

“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.” Col 2:13-15

“Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil…” Heb 2:14

Satan’s temporary authority was handed over to Jesus 2,000 years ago, along with all other authority:

“I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.” Ephesians 1:18-23

2. Nowhere in Acts or anywhere else in Scripture is there the slightest indication that Peter killed them.

As for Jesus dying for all sinners, the Bible does not teach universalism – the idea that everyone eventually gets saved. The question of who Jesus will save is answered in Matthew 1:21, “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” It does not say, “all people from all their sins.”

“As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.” Mark 4:10-12

“So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.” Romans 9:18

“Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels…” Matthew 25:41

4. The Bible tells us how we will know if a revelation is from God. Here are a couple methods, and there are others:

“The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” Acts 17:10-11

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” John 4:1-3

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

Listen to this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3TsVaFR870

I am the light upon your path when you have lost your way
I am the footprints in the sand the ocean's tide can't wash away
I am the shelter from the storm that rages on and on
The incorruptible foundation that the wise man builds upon
I am the bread that feeds a starving man upon the street
I am the bounty on the table in the palace at the feast
I am the rain upon the earth after a scorching drought
I am the quenching of the thirst you never thought you'd be without

I am the melody that weaves its way inside your soul
I am the symphony, the masterpiece, the actor's greatest role
I am the poetry that speaks to you with every rhyme
I am the songwriter who seems to write your life in every line
I am the simple truths that shaped your world from your birth
I am the vast volumes of knowledge spanning all across the earth
I am the whisper of the wind you feel, but cannot see
I am the alpha and omega, first and last, eternally

I AM You cannot see me
I AM The resurrection and the life, the doorway and the vine, I AM
I AM You cannot touch me
I AM The bread of life, light of the world, long before Abraham, I AM

I am the trusting child whose simple faith is ever sure
I am the parent's love, unchanging, unconditional and pure
I am the loyal friend whose heart will never let you down
I am the hand that pulls you back into the boat before you drown
I am the thunder and the glory and the blinding light
I am the still small voice that tells you what is wrong and what is right
I am the sacrificial lamb a guilty world reviled
I am the father ever waiting for his lost and wayward child

I am the heart of the righteous desire and the fourth man you see in the midst of the fire
I am the giver of life and promise of Israel
I am the hope of the lonely and lost in the blood running down to the foot of the cross
I am the breaking of chains and the tolling of freedom's bell
I am the notes that eternally ring in the music too holy for angels to sing

I am the fire on the altar consuming the sacrifice
I am the three and yet I am the one in the grace of the Father and death of the Son
I am the one who redeemed you by paying the highest price

I am grace and mercy, I am sacrifice

I am endless glory, I am light and life
I am long-awaited hope of Israel
I am longing sated, prophecy fulfilled

I am from the beginning of time, and I am sustaining the system of life
I am symmetry, reason and rhyme, and I am conviction that cuts like a knife

I am the author of order and flow
I am the Father of Lights: watch me put on a show!
I am the seeker of all gone astray
I am the keeper of souls 'til the end of all days

I am power, I am glory, I am love's unending story
I am justice, I am honor, I am hope and living water
I am righteous, I am holy, I am three and one and only
I am sovereign, I am faithful, everlasting, I AM that I AM

I am humility, the one who laid it all aside
Traded a crown of kings for a crown of thorns, betrayed by human pride
I am humanity, took on your curse and all your pain
I am divinity, eternity, forever I remain

I am your guilty scars, as Roman solider tear my back
I am the crimson stain that washes all the souls faded to black
I am the one who bled in silence and endured it all
I am the Word who spoke no word, with a thousand angels waiting for my call

I am your covenant - your hero in these bloodstained pages
I am your guilt, your sin, your debt fulfilled for all the ages
I step into your shoes, your substitute
Your sacrifice
Your raison d'etre
Your second chance
Your breath of life
I AM

I am the joy of angels dancing in the streets of heaven
I am the sinner's prayer for mercy and a past forgiven
I am the lamb upon the altar dying willingly
All hope that was
All hope that is
All hope to be
I AM

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
sometimes LL can suck & sometimes LL rocks!
http://www.dailypaul.com/203008/south-carolina-battle-of-cow...
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15