-24 votes

Sad Amash Report

Amash: "I Am Not Going To Take Anything Off the Table"
What kind of libertarian could say this?

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/12/amash-i-am-not-...

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Cyril's picture

I can hardly believe what I've just read.

I can hardly believe what I've just read.

Disappointing or, for the least, VERY confusing.

Best comment on that article, by:

"Tony
December 9, 2012 at 3:46 PM"

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Econ 101

Please retake.

Confusing loyalty with integrity is neither

It seems to me there's all to often a sophomoric moral paradigm among some of the DPers. One day we say, "Hey, this guy's really cool and on our side." The next day we say, "No one should trust that guy because he said this or did that."

There's a real lack of humility in such an inability to see leaders, i.e. people, as just people -- trying, failing, getting back up, honing their weapons, trying again.

There's an immature morality that pits loyalty against integrity. Immature in that it lacks humility.

The first impulse, that rah-rah, he's one of us, is, I suspect, deeply rooted in the evolution of human bonds. It's tribal morality. We're always looking for our tribe, whether linked by blood, locale, political philosophy. We want to latch on to it, in part, because it helps assure us that we're part of a group -- a tribe. But because we are no longer dependent on the tribe for anything more than how we feed off it, we're oh-so quick to condemn a person when our association with him/her isn't meeting our sanctimonious needs. Because we aren't operating in loyalty as it evolved -- for a real person who will have our backs if we have his. We were only loyal as long as our cheerleading for that person continues to make us feel good and right.

Woe to those we put on our pedestals constructed of our own needs. Because if they prove themselves mere mortals, if we start feeling shaky about our own ideals because of our declared association, we're quick to run away. Because we're modern folk with notions of integrity. We won't stand behind someone who says does something that doesn't fit our basement-dwelling, self-serving notions of integrity.

Except people are just people. They will always fall short; they will always disappoint. And the world is always going to be broken and we're always going to be sweeping up shards. The pure only stay pure as long as they never go out.

Go out and try to make something right happen. See what you get to work with. You don't get pristine philosophy. You don't get pristine goodwill, and even when you do, one person's goodwill may very well be the dragon you're trying to slay.

You want to make a difference anyway? You're willing to slog in the trenches, where it's mucky and the guy on your right and left may not have such uncompromising ideals? People will call you names. DPers certainly will. In the words of polar explorer Cherry-Garrard, "And so you will sledge nearly alone, but those with whom you sledge will not be shopkeepers: that is worth a good deal." He was speaking of the shopkeepers as those afraid to risk material goods. It applies as aptly to those afraid to risk their pristine notions of right/wrong on which their shaky notions of themselves are constructed. Shopkeepers. They will always be the majority -- yes, in the liberty movement by about the same ratio as anywhere else.

To the Rands and the Amashs and to those folks I know personally in the liberty movement, who don't succumb to the fickle loyalty of a tribe of shopkeepers -- no matter what label they stick on their foreheads, sledge on.

actually on second thought, how do you know he isn't

talking about the military?

A traitor!!! This can only

A traitor!!! This can only mean one thing, Amash is in league with Hitler, Rand and every one else in the entire movement besides me and the other 5 members of the TRUE libertarian club! I knew it!

One who does not play his hand before negotiating.

New taxes on corporations that make all their money by feeding at the public trough in exchange for lower taxes for the rest of us, even if the exchange was not "revenue neutral", for example.

Shame

"As a country" - collectivism. "The country" is not voluntarily raising taxes on itself; Congress and the President of the United States are seizing the property of taxpayers to pay the federal colossus' debts. All this "we" talk in government is very deceiving to the apathetic and ignorant masses.

Also, you are absolutely right that no true libertarian could ever say something as compromising as "nothing is off the table." Either you have principles or you do not. Either you believe that taxation is immoral and impoverishing or you do not. If your actions do not uphold your principles, then your alleged principles are void, and might as well not even exist. All that matters in life is what you actually do, not what you said you intended to do.

The only pure libertarian position on this "fiscal-cliff" hysteria is national default. Purge the unconstitutional and unjust debts foisted upon the people and leave people free to save and spend their money according to their preferences.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors, but today we kneel only to truth." - Kahlil Gibran

we need sky high taxes

i've been thinking we need huge tax increases on every citizen,,,, because as of now all spending is on a credit card so america says ok,,, since they don't see any increase/pain personally

maybe,,,maybe if taxes went up ,,,,people would be truly outraged enuff to act

i've been debating this alot lately with my self

what's worse low taxes now(supposedly,,,we're all being raped),,, and huge credit card charges by congress tricking people into all is fine

or taxes now that actually reflect our spending

i can't believe we deficit spend i think like 3 billion a day now,,,, that is absolutely crazy!!!!!!

LMFAO why are you guys

LMFAO why are you guys downvoting this ... you want to front page things and throw Rand Paul under the bus and attack him with incredible fervor ... but you want to hide the justin amash shit? grow the hell up already ... these people need a serious reality check ... stop whining and grow up already and admit the fact that you are human beings and you are fallible. you CAN be wrong.

why don't you just start attacking yourselves for not being libertarian enough.

All paper money eventually returns to its real intrinsic value, zero. - Voltaire

God, the knee jerk reactions

God, the knee jerk reactions around here are appalling.

Amash is responding to the GOP leadership saying that spending cuts are off the table. Amash is saying he isn't taking that off the table. Get it?

it's because too many people

it's because too many people are sitting around looking for a reason to take their anger out on someone and blame someone because they didn't win the prize that they thought would be so easy to get

People running around calling Rand Paul a traitor, now Amash, calling Lew Rockwell a traitor, Tom Woods ....

all I can do is LOL at these people .. it's getting quite pathetic. I wonder if idiots did this after the 2008 election. I immediately took a long break so I did't see much of this .. if there was any.

All paper money eventually returns to its real intrinsic value, zero. - Voltaire

You have to have

understanding for this. I do.
It's people who only recently joined the movement, and follow Ron Paul since only a short time (and 1-4 years, if even that long, is a short period compared to Ron's active years in politics).

I think this will turn into a healthy variety of mostly reasonable understanding and constructive discussion over time, premised we all care for debate, and not shy away from it.
Just my 2cts.

No s**t !

First we eat our own.

Let's attack the best people in politics because they aren't pure enough, while ignoring the truly evil.

Bingo

And we have a winner Johnny!

Eric Hoffer

i think everyone is getting bent out of shape for nothing

that quote could mean a million different things. instead everyone is going start bashing one of the few good people we have. I think some people just like to complain and can never be content.

Amash will never raise taxes.

Amash will never raise taxes. This is all talk. Politics. And as long as he is playing politics with his rhetoric, and keeps it out of his votes, then he's still everything we have thought he was up to this point.

Otherwise, just shut the hell up and get this guy elected for whatever office he wants. And if Amash is not to our standards, than we've failed to come anywhere near taking over the GOP.

https://twitter.com/#!/cevans93

Debates within the movement are of real value!

Whatever opinion one may have on these matters (compromise, endorsements, principles, political reality, consistency, priorities,..)

..i think it is important that there is discussion, whatever way they are being held.

And i also think having arguments like these, no matter how senseless some may feel about them (some even though taking part), is indeed vital to the movement's self-reflection and critical thinking.
Having debates about dogma (which ever one on all sides you name)for me is generally a very good thing.

A society being able to openly debate is a society being alive. This in and of itself, i consider valuable and important; all the more as we are smart enough to keep an open mind and not being destructive =)

FACE IT

Face it, our best hope for a viable consistent liberty-loving candidate for 2016 is the good judge.

Mark

SteveMT's picture

Does Amash want his committee seats back THIS badly?

Is he willing to toe the party line about raising taxes even though this goes against every known libertarian principle?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/fiscal-cliff-negoti...
Justin Amash, another Tea Party movement favorite, said everything needs to be considered to reduce the country's debt burden.

"I don't think it would be a good idea to raise tax rates," said the Michigan representative who identifies himself as a libertarian. But Amash said: "I am not going to take anything off the table if we can resolve some of our biggest issues as a country."

Amash has a perfect conservative voting record according to the Club for Growth, which evaluated whether freshmen lived up to their promises of fiscal constraint.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/fiscal-cliff-negoti...

I guess we are not allowed to criticize

un-libertarian actions or words, when coming from a friend of liberty?

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

Ahahaha! Lets here it! So now

Ahahaha! Lets here it! So now Amash is a traitor! Yup! Both Rand and Amash are traitors. And when Ron endorces Rand he will be a traitor too!

You guys are fools. You are willing to turn against our best allies. This needs to stop. Just stop. I've heard enough.

.

they didnt turn.
they were never on board in the first place.
they joined to change the PAUL msg to fit their lib agenda, and no other reason.

"OH NO! He has a SON?" Neoconservatives and Liberals EVERYWHERE!

Rand Paul 2016

No. Do not stop.

I keep pressing that we must hold ALL politicians accountable. Justin, and Rand are better than most. We must support them, along with Massie and others. But that does not mean that we take what they say/do for granted. We must hold their feet to the fire, for they are OUR representatives and not the other way around.

Until people start holding their representatives accountable, this nation will continue to plummet! Let THAT be said.

"What if the American people learn the truth" - Ron Paul

Agreed

These people are complete idiots. This is exactly the same crap I've seen happen to the LP all these years. No one is pure enough.

Eric Hoffer

Ron Paul is pure enough

Find me one quote in his 30 years in politics, where he said something similar.

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

Oh those pesky standards lol

Those that have them laugh at those who cry about not meeting them.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

You have constructed a staw

You have constructed a straw man argument. The real Eric Hoffer would be disappointed in you. For example, though most of the Ron Paulites disagree with Paul on several issues (for me it is abortion and immigration), he is "pure enough" for us.

I doubt it

It wasn't actually an argument, unless you're talking about the complete idiot part, and quite honestly that is just venting ad hominem.

The same internal bickering and attacking of parties whom no one deems pure enough IS what I've seen from the LP. Continual undermining and brutalization of those who only align 95% as opposed to 100%. Humorously, The True Believer is where I first read about the phenomena of a movement turning inward on itself and eating those who were some of the most revered soldiers when the figurehead at the front dies or leaves, or is forced out.

Given that we're such a beautiful display of Hoffer's observations, I doubt he'd be that disappointed.

Eric Hoffer

You keep using the LP as an

You keep using the LP as an example....but where's the evidence? In 2008, the LP sacrificed its "purity" and nominated Bob Barr. While I supported Barr at the time, I wish we had listened to the purists in that case. In 2012, the LP again rejected the "purist" alternative and nominated Gary Johnson. While I was often critical of Johnson, I think that it was a very wise choice.

Again, even the recent story of the LP indicates that "true believers" criticized by Hoffer were more losers than winners in getting their way.