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"Ten things Christians and Atheists can and must agree on." An article that would serve this community well

Whether you're Christian, atheist, or anything else, please read and try to keep an open mind


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it's not important we agree on anything...

it's important that we are allowed to disagree and btw, protect each other's right to disagree with us.

each other's "right", yes

but keep in mind that this is the exact tactic that is always used to rule.

"Divide and conquer" comes from having two opposing sides which never end up debating out a consensus.

I don't see it that way I guess

Disagreement is not the divising factor. People can disagree and get along. "Consensus" with an opposing side is not something I worry about in my religious beliefs. Not trying to pick on you.... =)

Are we

supposed to "get along" or progress forward? I'm in this for making progress, not just keeping the peace. Every thought about how many people struggle or die due to the delay in intelligent people coming to a consensus to fix any given problem? Pick your problem, it's gotta be in the millions. Just sayin'.

I don't know what you are talking about, obviously.

My religious beliefs shouldn't be a problem for you, nor yours for me - as long as we leave each other alone. I guess that could be the consensus you seek - deciding to leave each other alone. Live and let live.

Authoritarianism is the divisive factor.

Authoritarianism is a moot point in this discussion

There is no one telling the other what to do or believe.

I'm trying to show you that if we have two choices of how to do something and we realize it is up to us to do that something, being divided will stop us from doing anything at all. We can only do something in a united fashion. Otherwise, it's not "we" that's doing it, it's just one of us.

In any topic you can pick, I can give you examples of how many many people have suffered from the lack of something getting done to fix the problems. So, I ask you, "Is it still ok to stay divided forever and get nothing accomplished or should we stop agreeing to stay divided and start debating on which path to follow? I'm sorry if people think their feelings might get hurt if they're informed their beliefs are wrong but I'm much more concerned with actually hurting others because some global issue (or actually all of them to date) never got fixed.

And no, I'm not saying you have to concede to my side. I'm saying we need to debate the facts and weigh the factors and agree to abide by whatever consensus we come to.

Insightful and timely

Especially on the issues of tolerance and respect..Fellow believers must remember: We all stumble (make mistakes, ...)in many ways, and we can judge behavior --lying, stealing, cheating, etc. But judging the person is not in our (individual) hands, nor should it be. An appeal to the rule of law, and common ground, are essential when dealing with this issue.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

"An appeal to the rule of law" - that won't work

I've tried. Trust me; it doesn't work. The rule of law is an Anarchists enemy.

As they love to point out, they want a world without "rulers", a capitalist Anarchy. They ignore all the reasons men write law and create governments to begin with, imagining they can snap their fingers and create a world of nonviolence in a free market of violence serving the principle of self interest.

What common ground can I find with people who see themselves (and me) as soulless animals, who just want to destroy, exalt themselves and serve their self interest?

Anarchists Don't Reject Law

They just prefer private law, not monopolistic public law:

"Bipartisan: both parties acting in concert to put both of their hands in your pocket."-Rothbard

Liberty helps us all

Here is what I have been learning lately.

Why do some people think that someone else or a large number of people need to endorse your thoughts and beliefs to make you or your thoughts acceptable? I am a Christian but I don't expect everyone to believe the same thing that I do. I hope that they do and I would be glad to talk to you about it but I don't hate you or disrespect you or blow you off if you disagree with me in an area.

I don't like the word tolerance because it makes me think of a whining baby. We tolerate whining babies even though we are annoyed by them. I want to place a higher value on people than that.

Christians should be known as people who love others even when they aren't loved back. They should be known as people who respect others beliefs even though they might have different or opposing beliefs.

The problem comes when you expect me to cease my beliefs for the sake of your comfort or feeling good about yourself. I don't want to tread on your liberty so don't tread on mine.

This is why I am not threatened by Mosques being built. I do not subscribe to Islam but I do not want the government or any other organization to take away their rights. If they can intervene there then they can intervene in my religion and I do not want that.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

If you are a "true" Christian (and I can't think of a

denomination where this isn't the case) then you believe that non-Christians (and those not of your sect) are going to hell to burn forever and ever.

If that is your belief and it is the New Testament position, then you would be heartless to not be trying your hardest to convert people.

The truth is you don't believe that, that's why you are not dying of exhaustion at the thought of family or friends or civilians 90% or more, burning in hell forever and ever.

Hell, according to the New Testament and according to each Sect (denomination), is holding most souls that ever lived -- without the possibility of parole.

Most people alive today, according to the Westborrow Baptists, are going to hell.

Catholics believe all Protestants are going to Hell -- All Protestants must believe that Catholics are going to Hell because according to the founders of protestantism the Pope is the Anti-Christ.

All Catholics and all Protestants believe the Jews are all going to hell -- the Jews who do not recognize Christ as God or as Messiah.

All types of Christians above believe all Pagans, Animists, Hindus, Buddhists who have ever lived or who will ever live are going to Hell.

And the Jews think everyone else will remain rot-locked in their bodies in the cemetery 'till judgement day; which for 99% of all humans who-ever lived is thousands and thousands of years -- locked in their bodies in a hellish torment of un-rest. While the good-Jews are sleeping in beatitude.

I agree with this statement

"If that is your belief and it is the New Testament position, then you would be heartless to not be trying your hardest to convert people."

I am trying my hardest. My entire life exists to help show people the love of God and the eternal life they can have through him.

What is in question is the methods we employ to do so. I believe this happens best in the context of meaningful relationships. I don't expect people who don't believe in God to follow God's path for their life.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

But -- Do you believe they will be burnt and torn apart for-ever

and ever (with no parole)?

Which version of the Abrahamic Death-Cult Tradition do you follow -- I say this with no irony or tongue-in-cheek -- "death cult" is a perfect moniker; especially for Christians and Islamics.

GoodSamaritan's picture

Not exactly

"If you are a 'true' Christian...then you believe that non-Christians (and those not of your sect) are going to hell to burn forever and ever."

Every Christian was once a non-Christian, so that statement doesn't make sense. There is no way to be certain if an unbeliever will be saved or not since salvation can occur anytime up to the moment of death.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father


You believe they will if they do not "repent" -- that's still a horrible thought to hold toward another human being.

If you were making a "preferred" hang out list for your children would it include people you know are not saved (not just atheists but kids from another religion -- one your sure is marching to hell)?

Plus one type of "saving" is not the same as another.

If you are Scriptura Sola then you must believe that if a man just before his death asks to be saved by a Catholic Priest then by your lot he is going to hell -- to burn forever and ever.

GoodSamaritan's picture


I'm not sure it's possible to unpack your conclusions, but I'll give it a shot.

What I believe about the final state of the unrepentant has nothing to do with the fact that I can't know with certainty who they are in this life.

Not sure what my "preferred hang-out" list has to do with this but 1) my children are not Christians, and 2) my chief concern for the type of friends they have is that they're well-behaved.

I've already stated here http://www.dailypaul.com/266275/judge-napolitano-why-you-can... that salvation is defined within each religion.

What does asking a Catholic Priest for salvation have to do with anything? Salvation to eternal life is God's choice, not ours:

"For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Romans 9:15-18

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father


My misunderstanding -- I thought you were a "believer"

See if my daughter was going to the hang-man's gallows -- just the physical death alone would turn me into a murderer; as I would die trying to save her (regardless her crimes).

If I absolutely could not save her then every day until her death would be a torture and the rest of my life would be like sand in my mouth.

That's a mere mortals love for his child.

So if you were a "believer" (an absolutist) then you would be racked in pain every day your children left the house as non-believers -- because death (to non-believers -- according to men) cannot compare to the torture (for-ever and ever) that awaits them; the least of which (the Jewish version) is a hellish nightmare of un-rest rot-locked in their corpses until judgement day.

If a person who call's them-self a believer does not believe at that level then why bother -- anything less is rather a resort-view of faith, a fair-weather fan. Why bother or why chose a religion then that has hell or rot-lock as the reward for not being perfect (in thought alone) in a baffling universe?

If one is hard-wired to "believe" then why not be a Jain -- I think they are the least offensive of all religious sects OR be a Daoist; they say amusing things OR be a Rastafarian -- they smoke weed, have great lingo, play wonderful music, and smile all the time.

Why chose one of the Abrahamic Death-Cult Denominations?

GoodSamaritan's picture

Clearly you don't get God's sovereignty

and you don't understand why Jesus gave the Great Commission.

You think you know how a believer is supposed to act regarding the spiritual condition of unbelievers, but all you have is a made-up caricature that satisfies your need to mock Christianity.

Your lost soul is not my problem. All I'm required to do with regard to preaching is to give and live the gospel message as I have opportunity, and instruct believers in the faith. See for yourself what Jesus told his disciples as He prepared to send them into various towns to preach the gospel:

"And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town." Matthew 10:14

To shake the dust of a town off the feet was a sign of condemnation. I can do the same in a more contemporary fashion. If you or anyone else rejects the gospel I present, I'm free to go on my way without any loss of sleep. Your salvation is up to God - not me.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

If you are Christrian and your Children are not (not saved)

according to you -- are you not horrified, shocked, sickened by what's in store for them?

I agree -- "you" are not responsible.

GoodSamaritan's picture

It's very sad indeed

that they don't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ at this time, but I'm sure you're not the least bit concerned since you only engage in these conversations in the hope of opportunity for mockery.

Thankfully, our family has a very close, loving relationship filled with respect for one another. Because my wife and I strive to always show our children the love of Christ, we have a home built on a solid foundation that allows us to continue a daily Christian witness to them. We do what we can and leave final Judgment up to God. I cannot be "horrified", etc., at "what's in store for them" because I don't know "what's in store for them" and no one else does, either, except God Himself.

As for your snarky remark, I have no doubt that my unsaved children would laugh at your insinuation that I'm not a responsible parent.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

I never said "you were not responsible" I quoting you

You said that.

I thought you were saying that you were not responsible for "saving" your children or anyone it was between them and God.

My remarks are not snarky, I'm just going by scripture -- which says that those not saved or who follow the anti-christ or a false-religion will go to hell and be burnt forever and ever, torn apart again and again for ever and ever without parole.

Mormons worked in a parole-clause -- Catholics have pergatory (so there's a chance at acquital); but good-ole Martin Luther created a tight little box for you Protestants.

Jews get locked in their bodies till rapture -- could be thousands of years -- if they lived a good life then it's a blissful sleep, if bad then they are restless 'till rapture.

If you are a true-believer than you know what's in store and it don't matter how good a person is or how tight they are with their family -- for a protestant parent it should be a daily nightmare and torturous existence.

If every day is not a nightmare then maybe you don't "believe" those aspects of the bible? If not then why believe any part of it, I mean if you can pick and chose then follow Jefferson's re-worked bible, he took out the nasty bits.

I'm being serious -- it's cool if you don't want to chat but don't read contempt or snarkiness in my language.

I just don't believe that "believers" believe all the way -- how could you, knowing that most of the people in your life and 99% of all human beings are in or going to the worst horror-show imaginable?

GoodSamaritan's picture

I'll take your word

that I misunderstood your intent.

Still, please don't tell me what it is I'm supposed to believe if I'm a "true-believer". After 50 years of Bible study I think I have a fair idea of salvation and the afterlife as the Bible teaches.

I have absolutely no doubt that the Bible, in its original autographs, is the inspired Word of God. It is the entire revelation of God that is sufficient for our understanding of His salvation plan.

Your description of hell is way off. Those who are not saved in this life will go to a place that was originally prepared for the devil and the angels who followed him. It is a place where those who do not want God in their lives - on His terms - will get their wish to the fullest for all eternity. There will be no blessings from God; no communication with God. They will never know the joy of living in His presence, talking with their Creator face-to-face, or the glorious future of eternal, abundant life He has prepared for His children.

There is no "torn apart again and again", or "burnt forever and ever". Immortal, indestructible bodies cannot be torn apart or burnt. Hell is a place of sorrow and anger. A place of loss, bitterness, and shame. The descriptions you read in Scripture that deal with fire and burning are metaphors for the wrath of God. Several places in the Bible refer to God as a consuming fire (see Hebrews 12:29 and Deuteronomy 4:24, for example). This is a picture of his perfect Justice, satisfying His own laws that require sin be paid in full. Only those who are forgiven enter into a family relationship with Him and the rest will be kept out.

I trust that God will be just and merciful in His judgment. As the Creator, He is sovereign in determining the future of each creature. Since He is the One responsible for our destinies, I don't have to waste my time worrying about it. I can't see into anyone's soul, anyway. I hope my children (and everyone else on earth) are saved before physical death. I cannot save, as I have said, but I try to bring the gospel (good news) of salvation as I have opportunity:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

Peter said about Jesus, "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

Where do you get the 99% figure? There are about two billion people today who claim to follow Jesus. That number is growing rapidly. Here is an interesting article at WND that talks about the growth of Christianity around the world: http://www.wnd.com/2010/12/245201/

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

wolfe's picture

Very good point...

Just ask Jeffrey Dahmer about that.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

GoodSamaritan's picture

Guess you didn't get the memo

Dahmer has been dead for quite a while. Maybe you shouldn't wait so long between news cycles to catch up.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

wolfe's picture


"Repented" and was saved immediately prior to his death which means he went to "heaven" according to the Christian belief system. Which is the point I was making.

Maybe you should spend more time understanding what you read.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

GoodSamaritan's picture

Maybe you should try understanding what I write

Only God knows with absolute certainty the condition of Dahmer's soul - not you or anyone else.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

That is incorrect.

One is not automatically saved simply because they say "I repent". Whether Dahmer made it to heaven would depend on his repentance being genuine and sincere. Considering that he was a psychopath, who by their nature do not feel remorse or pity, I would say probably not.

wolfe's picture

That is the sort of thing that only people who haven't read the.

bible can say with a straight face.

There is no "test" for sincerity. There is only belief, acceptance, and grace.

"Works don't matter." And the only unforgivable sin is basically suicide, and only because there is no way to ask for forgiveness if the deed is done properly.

But what I find distinctly amusing is how Christians will tie themselves in knots trying to make a specific scenario make sense in their world view, while having no legitimate knowledge of the text to which they refer.

Eat of the flesh, bath in the blood, and be washed of sin so that you may rise from the grave and live forever. Funny how even the rituals within Christianity are nihilistic and sound more like a plot from Twilight or Buffy.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

GoodSamaritan's picture

You couldn't save your life with exegesis

but it's funny watching you try to decipher the words of others who can. I will give you one point for realizing there is no human test for sincerity, but I believe hannahmontana was referring to sincerity from God's point of view. In which case, a conversion is sincere if God is the cause of it (Ephesians 2:8-9).

BTW, the unforgivable sin is attributing to Satan the works of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said,

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matthew 12:31-32

The preceding verses put this in context where we see the Pharisees accusing Jesus of performing miracles by the power of Satan.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

wolfe's picture

I knew someone would quote that verse...

And thank you for pointing out that your god forgives Dahmer's crimes at the drop of a hat, but can't stand the insults.

Which by the way, I doubt you actually know what is meant there by "speaks against the Holy Spirit". And while this one quote, in one gospel, makes that statement, all others contradict it. It is not actually an unforgivable sin.

As far as sincerity, I assume you did not provide the actual quote because it says nothing about sincerity, and only supports my statement:

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Further stated by Paul in numerous locations.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -