23 votes

"Ten things Christians and Atheists can and must agree on." An article that would serve this community well

Whether you're Christian, atheist, or anything else, please read and try to keep an open mind

http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-at...



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Good point!

Actually, the percentage is much less. The US is the most religious nation on the earth. It is most likely less than 10%. The last time any large study was done, maybe 8 to 10 years ago, 14% of the people surveyed were "nones". That means that 14% said they held no religion. However, probably 1/2 of that number is "spiritual" or have a god-belief that doesn't fit into organized religion.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

The Government was established by "The Lord"

Romans 13

(Check this quick clip from a news broadcast during Katria)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsxgZb4bTMw&feature=player_de...

Thats why once you understand the State is evil...I have a VERY hard time giving Religon a pass.

Lysindad - it wasn't just the State that killed all those people...its a good cop bad cop type routine where individuals feel they only have 2 places to "run to safety" The State or God. I was a slave to both for nearly 35 years. I could not for the life of me find a logical way to hate the state without researching the orgins of religion and finding out all the uncomfortable stuff that made me have to let go of god too.

I'm still spiritial, in a very personal and practical way without believing that an invisable being is looking over me and I'm MORE moral and ethical than I used to be.

In reality you are forced to be personally responsible...you can't buy "indulgences" from a preist and/or just do hateful sh1t and then on Sunday confess and get the slate wiped clean.

I know how hard it is to learn the country you were born and raised in...and worshiped since as far back as you can remember, is the biggest terrorist nation on the planet. I also know how hard it is to be an active member of organized religion for 35 years and learn it too is not at all what it portrays itself to be. But, as hard as it is for SO MANY people to beleive...it only takes about 6 months of working through the pain of acceptance before you come out the other side with a renewed outlook on life. I've NEVER been happier and I sleep like a baby EVERY night. I used to worry myself sick for most of life...because nothing made sense...and it all seemed so illogical to me.

I don't see how people here that have studied and researched the orgins of Government and have determined that the State is nothing but a group of individuals who claim a monoploy on violence don't run into the same issues I had to struggle with regarding the Vatican and the orgins of religion like I did when researching the orgins of government.

The video above did really cause me to see how the State and Religon have become enablers of each other and they are BOTH against the freedom of men.

How

How do you determine what is right and wrong without God in your life? You can't condemn the state or religion unless they have done something "wrong". So I'm very interested in your "source" of truth.

How? The same way you do.

Atheists determine right and wrong the same way everyone does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgHoyTvyh4o

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

In

In Dawkin's world view there is NO right or wrong that is true. He doesn't want an absolute morality, which means he can not logically condemn any other morality which he disagrees with, because he doesn't believe anyone can be wrong. He gives some good jibes here as he tries to dig into emotion, but as he's said, we're all just dancing to our DNA, no one can be wrong when we're doing that. So don't jump to Dawkins for back up, he's a brilliant guy, who sucks at philosophy.

That is not at all what he

That is not at all what he says. Did you watch the clip? He says owning slaves is wrong. He says treating women as chattel is wrong. I have no reason to think he does not believe what he says. He also points out that those are both very modern concepts, and at variance with all the old religious texts.

Personally, I cannot even conceive of having my concepts of right and wrong dictated to me from a central authority. I would judge those concepts by what I believe. But everyone does that.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

Interesting

I watched it, yes. He admits that there are no absolutes. If that is the case, whatever he says afterwards is hogwash. I do believe he thinks owning slaves is wrong, but the question is, is it TRULY wrong, or is that just his opinion. Can you PROVE that owning slaves is wrong? Or you do you just personally not like it? I get my ethics from a central authority, because the only other option is chaos and because I believe God is true. Without God there is no moral compass and no moral absolutes.

wolfe's picture

Your god...

Not only approved of slavery, but set very specific requirements in it's practice and required his people to actively engage in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

So if you believe absolute morality comes from your bible and your god, then you MUST support the practice of slavery.

I prefer my morals, personally.

Yeah, you get a "moral" compass as the prize for belief in your god... It just happens to always be pointed at *evil*.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

what grounds

On what grounds is slavery wrong? You accurately say prefer. But is a loving slave master evil? He cared for his slaves. Show me some credible grounds on which we can say slavery is absolutely wrong!! Your God is you and you tailor morality to fit you. Murderers do that too. Serial killers might also. Would they be evil?? Why? They're just animals killing other animals.

wolfe's picture

lol.

Wow. Bold statement!

Since slavery does not seem to phase you, how about...

Rape and Murder:
http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

So I guess, as long as your god says it's ok to commit evil acts, then that makes them righteous acts?

You are twisted and confused.

And your question about slavery, is a distinctly odd one to be coming from someone on this site:

http://www.weblogbahamas.com/blog_bahamas/2010/03/lessons-in...

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

Children

This is a child's debate. No one has answered any question I asked. Which is typical. Good luck fighting for freedom, when there is no reason to assume that freedom is truly "good" since ethics don't exist.

wolfe's picture

Funny.

When presented with hard evidence of the evil portrayed as morality within your bible, you would rather run off.

What specific questions did you ask? I see a lot of ignorance, and refusal to discuss facts from you, but haven't seen a single question that wasn't addressed.

Look up the word ethics. It does not mean what you think it does.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

I haven't

I haven't read that section of the Bible in a long while, but notice the context in which it is cited in your website, it is without any. Did God sanction these actions? You're assuming he did, but where did God say to go do these things. A lot of people do evil in the Bible and God punishes them for it. I encourage you to read the entire book that section comes from that you cited and see its context.

I have asked many times for people to give me a source for morality. For YOU to give proof that things like slavery are actually, truly "wrong". I didn't say ever that I approved of slavery or that I had no problem with it. I asked you as an Atheist, someone that believes that we're all just accidents of genetics and matter and time why on earth if that were true would I ever believe that slavery is wrong?

It seems to me that I could own slaves, make money off them and turn a huge profit which would give me a great life and someone who did that could be quite happy. How would that be "wrong"? IF you answer, this ought to be good. I'm not saying you think slavery is ok, I'm asking how you can prove and convince others that it truly is "evil" or "wrong". It can't be done, ethics don't exist if God does not exist.

I think you're the one that doesn't understand what ethics means. Morals are the common actions in reference to ethics of a culture or society. HOW we act. Ethics are the over arching law of right and wrong to which our morals should adhere. That over arching ethical law or moral LAW can not exist without a moral law giver. Humans can't decide it, or it ceases to exist because it would simply be based on human experience and preference and bias etc. and no one could be said to be truly "wrong" ever if that was the case. Please show me that all this time spent typing wasn't wasted on you and that you're not a troll. Think about what I've said and answer with some integrity.

wolfe's picture

I have read the Bible cover to cover many times.

And there is far worse, condoned and commanded by your god in the bible. It's the reason I am an atheist now.

Including bestowing punishment on David by having his daughters raped.

If you actually read your own bible IN context, you could no longer argue for it as being a "good" moral compass.

Ethics is a set of beliefs to determine behavior as acceptable or unacceptable. "Unethical" does not mean it is wrong, it means it violates a specific set of rules, and it puts no obligation on which set of rules. Something that is unethical in one society's rules, may in fact be ethical in another. LOOK IT UP!

You refuse to review and comment on things that have already been provided, and refuse to discuss facts in evidence, so have a good day.

As far as calling me names. Hope that makes you feel warm and fuzzy. I'm sure your god approves. lol

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

Names?

Calling you names? Please. This is what you call an answer?

wolfe's picture

That was a beautiful clip.

I had never seen it before.

Thank you.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

What a stunning question The Baptist!

How do I know that killing and stealing are wrong without God?

How do I "figue out" that being kind and helpful to others nurtures the kind of relationships that provide me with joy?

When I was very young and learning lessons in life, I found that if I saw a kitten and held my hand out and gently called for it, it would come to me, let me caress it and it would "love" me back. If I kicked a small kitten it would run and hide.

If I hold the door open for an elderly woman I receive a wonderful smile from a beauiful person and it physically changes my mood to one of joy.

The more I give to people and the more I show respect for others...the better MY life is.

If you can only keep yourself from killing, hating, and going around pilliaging others like a madman because you believe a skyghost is watching you and holding the keys to your afterlife...I fear you.

Morality does not come from God or Government. The innocence of a child BEFORE it is beaten by its parents or forced to conform to illogical culture ideologies is a good example of how we are BORN moral beings but are slowly destroyed by a society that has been brainwashed to believe that truth and reality play 2nd fiddle to mythology and collectivism.

Your answer

Your answer is a dodge. You've described a sweety pie world where you are given "joy". You've presented no logical reason why it would be ethically "good" for me to conform to your view, nor could you.

I don't believe in a skyghost, sorry. The question is why not kick a kitten? There is no reason not too, maybe I don't like their fur on me, maybe I'm allergic to them and would have more joy if they were in a sack, sinking in a river. You've presented modern Atheist "reasons" without answering my question in any real substantive way with "reason".

Please show me how I can FORCE my kids to believe in God, I'd love to hear it and then tell me why IF I could do that, it would be "wrong". I'd like something concrete, not your own particular preferences.

The real kicker is that after all your emotional points, you then complain about the supposed "illogical" nature of religion.

Why can I be moral because I want to be moral?

If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran — as these books are bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the causes and possibilities of human happiness.

We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn't make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery — and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination.

How do you

Progress implies getting closer to a set goal. There is no set Goal without a God. You say cruelty abounds in the scripture. But the word cruelty has no reference since evil is undefined in a naturalist world view, we're all just animals doing what our DNA tells us right? Why be angry at my cat when he kills a mouse for fun? You are an evolved amoeba, why do you think you can be good or evil. That is ridiculous.

The "supposed" illogical nature of religion

You believe that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a woman made from a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

I don't debate people that are so delusional. Lets both just move on. I'll contiune to try and help those that want to live in reality and you can keep perpetuating the myths that you think are true.

You pray for me and I'll think for you. lol

If

Interesting that I appealed to you for more rational discourse and you sink to this sort of name calling. If this is what passes for logic for you, I don't think you can "think" for me.

arbitrary morality is not morality

You've made many emotional appeals, but you haven't established by what authority your claims of goodness are actually good.

Without the foundation of the God of the Bible, the 'morality' you describe is arbitrary. It is not universal and immutable.

(Yes, we Christians find it funny (sad) and ironic when atheists unwittingly rely on Christ's goodness to declare moral precepts.)

wolfe's picture

And we atheists find it amusing...

when you christians believe that before "christ" there was no understanding of appropriate moral behavior with one another.

Everyone was apparently busy killing and raping each other until "christ" came and taught approximately 0.05% of the world's population to -- what exactly? Do whatever the hell they wanted and be forgiven through invoking his name. No more guilt, just grace.... roflmao. Yeah, that's a good moral lesson... my ass.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

Not

Not a real description of what any Christian thinks actually, but if it makes you feel better to lie about us, you can. You're free to do so, but my question about the real nature of morality and ethics still stands. If you're an atheist, you can't logically question any "moral lesson" because you SHOULD, (not that you have to, you can delude yourself as I'm so often told I do because I'm a Christian) that morals exist at all. So you can't question a Christian's ethics or Hitler's or anyone's, you just have to roll with it.

This is the best reply to your post....

“Creed” on the World By Steve Turner

We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin

We believe everything is OK as long as you don’t hurt anyone to the best of your definition of hurt, and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.

We believe in the therapy of sin.

We believe that adultery is fun.

We believe that sodomy’s OK.

We believe that taboos are taboo.

We believe that everything’s getting better despite evidence to the contrary.

The evidence must be investigated And you can prove anything with evidence.

We believe there’s something in horoscopes UFO’s and bent spoons.

Jesus was a good man just like Buddha, Mohammed, and ourselves. He was a good moral teacher though we think His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same-at least the one that we read was.

They all believe in love and goodness. They only differ on matters of creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

We believe that after death comes the Nothing Because when you ask the dead what happens they say nothing.

If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then its compulsory heaven for all excepting perhaps Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Kahn

We believe in Masters and Johnson

What’s selected is average.

What’s average is normal.

What’s normal is good.

We believe in total disarmament.

We believe there are direct links between warfare and

bloodshed.

Americans should beat their guns into tractors .

And the Russians would be sure to follow.

We believe that man is essentially good.

It’s only his behavior that lets him down.

This is the fault of society.

Society is the fault of conditions.

Conditions are the fault of society.

We believe that each man must find the truth that

is right for him.

Reality will adapt accordingly.

The universe will readjust.

History will alter.

We believe that there is no absolute truth

excepting the truth

that there is no absolute truth.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,

And the flowering of individual thought.

If chance be

the Father of all flesh,

disaster is his rainbow in the sky

and when you hear

State of Emergency!

Sniper Kills Ten!

Troops on Rampage!

Whites go Looting!

Bomb Blasts School!

It is but the sound of man

worshipping his maker.

Steve Turner, (English journalist), “Creed,” his satirical poem on the modern mind. Taken from Ravi Zacharias’ book Can Man live Without God? [must read in parenthesis - www.rzim.org]

A good way to defend your freedoms: www.libertymagazine.org

falsity of "prove anything with evidence"

LOL. That such 'worldly' 'cosmopolitan' and 'smarter than thou' atheists would barf out such contradictions isn't surprising. Might want to hit the books and read up on the 'Problem of Induction.'

Rock

Rock on!

I haven't read the article,

I haven't read the article, but I think I agree with what I think would be its thesis: the acknowledgement of self, which is the ability to think (and act) and that because you can think is why you conclude what you do about theism and atheism.

If the article's thesis is thinking, it is why when I debate someone about theism and atheism that I lead my argument with the acknowledgment of two planes in life: the physical and mental (which depends on the physical). After the person agrees these states exist, then debate proceeds and, usually, he ends up agreeing with me that the individual should love himself, should love that he can think and act.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

you said

SHOULD love himself. That is not, it is "right" to love himself, nor is it that he should "love" others because it is "right" or defend other's liberty because it is "right". In fact, no moral or ethical statement is made. Which I respect, because no Atheist can assert morals, just suggest their own moral preferences are their preferences and that they like it when others agree with them.