10 votes

Petition: Avoid the "Fiscal Cliff" By Forgiving the National Debt!

We petition the Obama Administration to:

Inform the American People that they have the Right to Forgive the National Debt

WHEREAS since the default of 1933 the the incorporated United States of America, doing business as the government has been operating on the private credit of the American People;

WHEREAS the national debt is not a debt owed to any corporation, organization or country and is in reality a debt owed to the American People;

IMPORTANT NOTE: The bold text above does not seem to be sinking in... as evidenced by a lot of comments below. WE DON'T OWE IT - IT IS OWED TO US!

WHEREAS we the people can at any time forgive the national debt thereby eliminating the need for taxation to pay it off;

We the American People demand:

1. Statement of Condition of the incorporated United States;

2. Congress draft an Article of Discharge and Forgiveness setting forth the balance owed to the American People;

3. Said Article of Discharge and Forgiveness be sent to the several states for ratification;

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/inform-american-pe...

Please spread far and wide to educate the American People of their right to forgive the National Debt, owed to them... at any time... to eliminate all the excuses "government" uses to tax us to death.

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I say

Not to forgive it, They have run us into the ground and need to be held accountable. All those people who got mega rich off our backs deserve to lose it all forgiving the debt would just bail them out.

Let's face the facts

They are not going to be held accountable. Ever. The reason they won't is because the body responsible for holding an out of control tyrannical government accountable... is not willing to do so.

I would suggest researching Hamilton and why he kept pushing the issue of a "national debt to unite the country" to see how this debt is the foundation of what keeps America enslaved in this illusion.

Who do we owe this debt to?

Who do we owe this debt to?

We?

I would argue that I do not owe anybody.

The USA owes those persons who own the bonds - hedge funds, little old grannies, retirement funds, pensions, municipalities, teachers' unions, China, all sorts - and the Fed of course.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

DID YOU EVEN READ THE POST?

OMG....

LOL

not making fun of anyone, I just woke up and that comment made me laugh so hard.

Id be in favor of forgiving

Id be in favor of forgiving any debt we owe to a central bank, and then tossing all of our central bankers into a lightless hole, much like they've done in Iceland. However I see no way to forgive any non-fiat debt owed to citizen bond holders or foriegn counties that doesn't boil down to theft.

Now granted, forgiving central banking fiat-based debt would cancel most of our debt, but that which remains should be paid back through hard work. It is the price we as a nation pay for apathy. We let them do this to us because we were still sleeping peacefully in the Matrix.

"I'd be in favor of forgiving any debt we owe to a central bank"

You can't forgive a debt you owe.

You don't owe a debt.

A debt is owed to you... I guess I'll just have to keep repeating myself... hopefully soon in will sink in.

Boom goes the buck

That would be enormously inflationary. When the USA pays the Fed for a maturing bond, the Fed has to shove the FRN's into the furnace. That is a Good Thing.

The only way to "fix" the debt problem is to cut back severely on government spending. Anything, ANYTHING other than that is just pushing paper around and re-distributing wealth.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

"The only way to "fix" the

"The only way to "fix" the debt problem is to cut back severely on government spending. Anything other than that is just pushing paper around and re-distributing wealth."

or defaulting. on All of it. It's onerous debt anyway.

Defaulting is just moving

Defaulting is just moving paper around too. How to convince the retiree whose pension fund was wiped out by the default that no wealth was transferred?

The problem is government. It is too big, too powerful, too oppressive.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

you dont need to convince the

you dont need to convince the ceditor that youre defaulting. you simply tell them that you are.

anyone who lent money to a state by buying its debt is basuically investing in the states future theft of its own people. no sympathy if they dont get paid back.

I wonder what all the other

I wonder what all the other countries would say about us simply telling them we are not going to pay what we owe.

It's quite a predicament what our political leaders & central bankers got us into. Perpetual debt to a private banking cartel plus if we declare the debt invalid it means we do not pay other nations that we owe as well as Americans who invested in government bonds. Quite the catch-22 & maybe perfect way to set this up to make it near impossible for us to choose not to pay.

The only way we won't pay is probably if we lose the ability to do so, when it's beyond the gov's control.

...

"We?"

You got a mouse in your pocket?

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

How it really works

Imagine Tony Soprano needs some operating capital. He goes around selling IOU's at a discount to face value. Call them "T-bonds" (T for Tony). He does not force anyone to buy them. He sells to anyone. If someone asks how Tony intends to pay them back, he mumbles, "Full faith and credit," which means he is going to get it from protection-racket payments - shakedowns. Tony could sell the T-bonds for dollars, Italian suits, or gold, but he prefers to invent his own money. Here's how that works.

Tony knows a guy named Benny ("The Ink") Burnano who owns a printing press. Tony works a deal with Benny. Benny prints "protection credits" with numbers and pictures of famous dead gangsters on them. Tony lets his protection-racket "customers" know he accepts the protection-credits as payment. Benny trades the newly printed protection-credits to Tony for some T-bonds. Tony can then use the protection-credits to buy real goods and services, and not only from those he is shaking down. The protection-credits have value because if a customer gives enough of them to Tony, said customer avoids a beating. The credits become valuable to everybody, because some people can use them to avoid getting beaten.

Every now and then, Tony and Benny burn up some of the IOU's and credits. It is a kind of ritual. Tony returns some credits to Benny; Benny gives some T-bonds back to Tony, and they both set fire to the paper. No matter. They can always print more IOU's and credits.

Tony also dutifully pays off the T-bonds to other people who bought them. He pays in protection-credits of course. Sweet deal.

The number of IOU's and credits in circulation grows in proportion to Tony's greed.

The racket can go on and on, as long as long as there are enough working people who are afraid of the beatings.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

Nation of governemnt school educated morons.

We owe the debt to the PRIVATE Federal Reserve that prints and our money and charges us interest on it. The proper term would be to "repudiate the debt". Just like Iceland did with the bankers.

Those holding government bonds will be left holding the bag, but that was a risk that they took when they bought the bonds.

The solutions are not difficult, that is until you realize you have to deal with and convince nation of financial morons.

“ANARCHY is the radical notion that other people are not your property.” ~Lysander Spooner

thank you for

thank you for clarifying.

somethign you may find interesting, if not somewhat redundant to what you already typed:

http://mises.org/daily/1423

FALSE

We owe the debt

This is an "alternative main stream" lie. Please do more research...

You don't mean forgive, you mean default

And yes I would be fine with that, even though I have some treasuries in a 401K somewhere. But do understand, since we are running huge deficits this means instant 'austerity', say goodbye to all your freebies.

The reason it is moral to default is because most people had no choice in running up the debt. It's immoral for a person to renege on their debt, but if I take out a debt and claim you owe it, you are correct to say hell no. Even if I take it out, give you a small portion, and then say you owe the whole thing.

Frustrating....

I mean what I say I mean...

Default means we the people owe the debt. That is categorically untrue.

THERE IS NO legal "authority" that will state that PEOPLE owe the debt... only US citizens. A US citizen is not one of the people referenced in the preamble. It's a bait and switch... they get you to think you're a "US citizen" and presto you're representing a fictitious (no articles of incorporation) corporation named after you.

The debt is owed TO THE PEOPLE which is why we have the option of forgiveness of that debt. Until you wake up and realize the national debt is owed TO THE PEOPLE and not the other way around you will not be able to see the simplicity of the solution and that it is 100% in our own hands.

Click your heels three times Dorothy - you've always had the power to do so.

Wrong.

The government owes the debt. You act like there isn't going to be a victim here and there is. It's everyone who owns the debt assuming they would be paid. The government will default on those people. Sure many of them are Chinese, as if that makes it ok.

The situation is as simple as this. Party A (the government) borrows money from party B (sovereign debt holders). Party A then insists Party C (the people) repay the money.

In your scenario, Party C refuses. This is moral.

Party A then, having no funds of it's own defaults. Party B is screwed. IE every person whose 401k, or retirement plan owns treasuries as assets.

I agree this should be done, but don't pretend there won't be victims here. It should be done, because it will prevent more people from becoming victims. It should be done because not doing it will make it worse when it happens on it's own.

so you're saying we automatically forgo social security

and all welfare which we need to borrow to make good on

if that's your intent i must say i have no qualms. it's laughable if you're currently on welfare and think somehow defaulting on all the borrowed money used to pay your bills is going to encourage further lending, however

Huh?

Difficulty with basic english? Foreigner who cannot translate properly? Where did I say this? Okay sorry...

Look: Entitlements are not even in the national debt - those are "future obligations" and the numbers for that can only be speculative since nobody can tell when they are going to die (regarding for example - social security).

To address the issue of entitlement needs - research Lincoln's "green backs" and you'll have the solution to that problem. The banksters wanted something like 23% interest to fund the civil war - he told them to pound sand and pushed a bill thru congress to start printing interest free currency straight out of the treasury.\

I don't believe that's a final solution (bart-mart is) but it would be an acceptable band-aid given the current paradigm.

Let me break it down in more simple terms.

If you incorporate a company and loan it money the company has a liability to you.

You can also be a customer of your own company.

That is pretty much the relationship.

The owners (people) loaned money to the company and the company is providing protection services to all of the customers (citizens) to pay back the owners (people).

There is no sameness between an owner of a company and a customer even if they are the same individual because the bundle of rights of an owner is different than a customer - it's all about WHAT CAPACITY you are OPERATING in.

deacon's picture

who owes this debt?

certainly not the people
the ones who own are the ones who voted for it
let them eat it
if it could be done,
take whatever trillions that is,and divide it between
every american from whom it is owed too

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Negative.

"The ones who own it are the ones who voted for it."

I repeat - the national debt is OWED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE - please re-read the post - from your comment it appears you simply read the title and then commented.

If you are not aware of this FACT - then please do not debate me: Do research and own the truth for yourself.

Bond holders

The debt is owed to bond-holders. They are many and various. China owns a lot of the bonds.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

FALSE

It is that belief that keeps you enslaved... that the credit borrowed from the people in this country in order to keep the corporation in business... is owed to anyone else but THE PEOPLE.

deacon's picture

that is exactly what i typed

the ones who it is owed to is to the people
let the ones who voted for it own it
arguing? how is this arguing?
my point was.let them who voted it in own it
meaning let them eat it,not own it like,it is theirs
if you did not understand my meaning,you could have asked
and it seems all you did was skim over and make a judgement
on my comment
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

I stand corrected brother.

Sorry I get so buried in all the defeatist responses I start getting verbally trigger happy... you are correct - the owner of the debt is technically who the debt is owed to.

You're right I did skim over and make a judgement.

We do have a slight difference of opinion on who has a say however. I'm not a voter but I paid a lot of taxes, voted etc... before I finally woke up to the whole mess. Now since waking up I was financially molested to the tune of a half million dollars because I started developing some effective solutions to THEIR problems (that were working perfectly as far as THEY are concerned) I think I got my "money's" worth looking back over the last 5 or so years...

Ultimately this needs to be drafted and ratified by the states where the people have a lot more influence over their state reps.