-39 votes

Does DP stand for "The Daily Paranoid"?

Wow... what happened around here?

When a top post calls for the public display of dead children to prove that they actually are dead, I know I have to move on.

I Hope that crowd continues to hate Rand Paul - and I hope he keeps his distance from them... we don't need the stigma they bring to the movement the next go-around.

I seriously don't want to be associated with this site - and I think it is a tragedy that a site (formerly?) dedicated to the philosophy of Dr. Paul has been essentially taken over by what I can only consider as the mentally ill.

It isn't that such stuff is posted that bothers me - but that such stuff draws such great support... I would expect our community to bury such stuff, but, instead it is accumulating the up votes! Either the sane ignore such posts, or we are outnumbered.

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I'm with you

I've noticed the trend around here and it is disturbing to me. Precisely because it is exactly what was done to RP by the GOP. They didn't like him so they 'down-voted' him to nothing. I thought we were better than that. There is a lack of tolerance for other ideas around here.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

SaveThePandas's picture

Thats what I've been saying

Heaven forbid you do not agree with the popular people or ideas here. I am truly beginning to see how frustrating it must have been all those years for Ron Paul to be down voted.

The problem...

The problem with the anti-"conspiracy theory" line is that all the key liberty viewpoints are pretty much conspiracy theories. If we don't think the people running things are power-hungry scum, then why do we worry about them printing our money, educating our kids, etc.? They want to help us, right? Nothing can go THAT wrong.... Why do we want guns for that matter? If not to protect us from our government, then, really, wouldn't we be safer, generally, if there were next to no guns in circulation in the US?

If you take away the conspiracy-suspecting tendency, you take away a key tool for analysis. It's like telling an investigator he can note all the bodies, fingerprints, means, motives and opportunities he wants, but he's not allowed to assume anyone has ill intent. Everything must be explained by accidents and coincidences.

Oh no

I completely agree with you. I assume the worst about our government and people in general. People are basically bad. People tend towards greed, power, and corruption. I question things and think we should. BUT, the level around here often seems over the top and counter-productive. There were posts on here questioning whether or not kids were even killed at Sandy Hook. My goodness, we have a multitude of credible testimony, we don't need to see dead bodies. So, I affirm the need to question authority and our government because people are inherently evil. I just don't see the need to go off the deep end about everything. I have been accused before of being government paid troll for goodness sake!

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

Do you not believe that the

Do you not believe that the gov pays people to troll the net? Or just surprised that someone would accused you of being one?

Blogs & Military Information Strategy: http://www.au.af.mil/info-ops/jsou/blogbook06june.pdf Learned about this from http://www.dailypaul.com/96178/paid-trolls-are-real-read-the...

US, Canada, China & other governments pay people to do this sort of stuff. Google is loaded with articles about it. It's probably more common than we realize.

...

Yes I am surprised. I am

Yes I am surprised. I am surprised someone would accuse me of something so asinine without any evidence. Labeling people just because they have a different opinion sounds a lot like Nazi Germany to me. Also, if there truly are gov paid web trolls, where do I apply? Sounds like a cushy job to me.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

SaveThePandas's picture

Sarx

If you find out where to apply for those government troll jobs fill me in. It does sound cushy, and hell.... I might as well get paid for what I am apparently already doing. All you have to do is ask a question no one likes.... That is easy enough.

I thought it meant double

I thought it meant double penetration.

Ron Paul 2016

This Simple

Bill, When you remind yourself of Bldg 7 / 911 -

How can you blame us?

What I love about the DP is it is a community of brave Americans trying their honest best to make sense of these mad times we live in.

Bill, I largely find our community here thoughtful, probing, fearless oddballs willing to look and to ask the questions no one else will. And this matters! DP has turned into one of the most important website on the Net, if you ask me. If we are to keep our Freedom and our Liberty, we must have the ability to exchange ideas and meet and recieve feedback and criticisms from one another.

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

SaveThePandas's picture

Man In The Box

I know your comment was directed at Bill, but I kind of understand what he is saying.

I agree that the community here is asking the important questions and are brave to do so, but it is when someone disagrees with their notions and asks questions back the powers that be here freak out and call people all sorts of horrible names.

Why is the question asking not supported on both sides?

OK, thats funny! "the powers that be at the DP"

when did that start? and how did I miss it?
this is NOT a good place for the thin skinned or beginning, beginners. people can become quite passionate when they finally learn that all they have been told is a lie.
all you have to do is to be sure you have been lied to about at least one thing that is important to you.... and when you finally accept it....
ignore the potty words and do not use them yourself is all I can say.
many trolls are intentionally obtuse.

SaveThePandas's picture

Thanks for a rational response

But I think it is more than this place not being for the thin skinned. I think people here have begun to overreact without taking the time to read another poster's words. I agree that this is not a good place for beginners and that worries me a little.

I have been on quite a few college campuses in the past few years and college students there are talking about libertarian ideas in mass numbers. Some might not even know what they are talking about is libertarian yet, but they will figure it out. Especially when Ron Paul goes and tells them. So, let's say they come here because their eyes have been opened.... They might not all know about the 9/11 stuff or some of the things commonly discussed here. Heaven forbid they ask a simple question without some vicious replies. Then, are they going feel comfortable coming back here? How will they feel about the movement in general? I am not suggesting baby gloves, I am suggesting basic manners.

Truth

I agree entirely. That's what we're all here to do...

challenge each other through logical arguments - in search of truth and our way forward

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

This is coming from a guy who

This is coming from a guy who thinks that steel frame skyscrapers collapse into pyroclastic plumes into perfect piles when a few floors catch on fire for a while. Good luck.

You'll be missed.

You've written some good posts. It's sad to see you go.

He won't going anywhere...

He'll be 'monitoring' like any good patriot should...

"Give a man a gun, and he could rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he could rob the world."

Yeah, right.

Sounds like "Bill" is another Newtown cover-up plant, sent by Rand to divide and conquer us. Nice try, "Bill". We will not stop thinking for ourselves.

I love the way you reinforce his point by

mentioning rand whereas no-one else makes that connection.

very odd.

Indeed.

And I love the way that Bill's point is so accurate that I can't even construct a comment ridiculous enough to be interpreted as sarcastic.

says more about you than bill

tbf

Paranoid?

I think Bill might be paranoid about people straying from approved topics and opinions.

The market philosophy calls for endless individual experiments in ideas and actions until the most relevant or useful or effective are discovered and embraced. Even Bill's input is valid, once this is understood...and Bill leaving this site would represent market forces at work...so would people here calling Bill an ass when he tries to police their thoughts. It all works out.

Personally, I come here specifically because I will get uncensored brainstorming from a large group about the motives of people in power and the implications of various events. If people here were afraid of "conspiracy theories," what would you have? Everyone repeating cable TV versions of reality to each other?

True.

Sometimes, the market philosophy results in the most relevant or useful or effective ideas and actions being discovered and embraced. Other times, it merely results in the departure of voices of reasonable moderation, leaving behind only the loudest, strongest supporters of the most unreasonable worldviews, an evaporative cooling of the group's beliefs.

That's actually a pretty ignorant statement.

If the market truly functions what shakes out is ALWAYS the most appropriate result for whatever resources are available--including the resources of human thought and energy. There is no "sometimes." It's liberals and neocons who say, "Yes, the market is good, but sometimes, if us 'experts' don't manage it, it can lead to bad things."

Oh.

Well, first I'd suggest you find a better reason to reject an idea than simply "the liberals and neocons say that." Negative qualities do not universally correlate. I know lots of liberals and neocons who think 2 + 2 = 4.

Your error is in "if the market truly functions." In this case, the market truly functioning would require everyone to vote and comment etc. Here, the crazier your views, the more likely you are to vote and comment. So the less crazy your views, the more likely you are to not even read what the crazies are writing, never mind vote and comment. This is not ideal for finding the best ideas. I'm not advocating censorship (nor, I believe, is Bill). We're just pointing out the undeniable fact that people are mostly pretty crazy around here and that it's not good for representatives of Liberty other than Gary Franchi and Alex Jones.

It's certainly important to question what we're told, and that mindset definitely leads many to the truth of Ron Paul's message and Liberty in general. Now we need to understand that, while also understanding that if we ever want Dr. Paul's principles to spread into the mainstream political discourse, we need to be able to discuss the issues without accusing everyone of being aliens in disguise under Jesse Benton's command.

*SOMETIMES* the market forces to which you refer are counterproductive to the cause of spreading Liberty. Not everyone here understands the nature of getting people to convert to our political views. Sometimes the discussion here is dominated by those who already agree with everything on the Super Brochure, so they can't fathom how a targeted issue mailing would work better. And these days we're promoting an environment around here that is turning people away from being suspicious about the FED because they see the anti-FED people being suspicious about the Newtown victims. It's good to question things; it's bad to reduce all of your legitimate questions to batshit crazy alien theories.

Oh, no.

Well, here, see....You assume, as a liberal or a neocon does, that YOU understand what will best move liberty ideas forward. Maybe the spreading of so-called conspiracy theories, when reflected on decades in the future, will be exactly the thing that made the difference. Maybe the creeping suspicion that 9/11 was/is a hoax--an idea forced into the national consciousness by all these "crazies" tilting at windmills--is what makes many people willing to consider that the whole system is a fraud, and that their best bet is to work for smaller government.

Since all liberty ideas are based on the theory that government always degenerates into a conspiracy against individual freedom, maybe the more extreme and shocking conspiracy theories are a way to get people thinking...A very significant portion of Ron Paul's supporters, for instance, come from the Alex Jones camp.

I don't know how it all fits together, and neither do you. That's the point of the market philosophy. Let people do what they will and see what emerges.

And if you understood markets, you would understand that every private enterprise, such as the DP, doesn't need to be a free market free-for-all. Participation in it just needs to be voluntary. Disneyland has rules, but they can't force people to enter the park. Burger King is a monarchy (that's a joke). The DP has an organizational scheme. It attracts certain types, it offers them this forum and this system. If all that doesn't shape up to be something popular or viable, then the DP will have less impact or will go away or will transform into something else.....If certain people think a strictly non-conspiracy-theorizing center for the liberty movement is in order, they can move with that, and see who it attracts and what impact it has.....In point of fact, Campaign for Liberty and YAL, and other more "official" arms of the liberty movement fit this description, don't they?

They do.

Clearly, those more "official" arms do fit that description (depending on how you define "strictly non-conspiracy-theorizing"). I don't think we really disagree as far as the solution. Again, I'm not trying to censor DP members or make everyone agree with my ideas to "best move liberty ideas forward". I'm just doing my part in your market system to acknowledge that the ultra-conspiracy angle does not help spread the message, that "the DP will have less impact or will go away or will transform into something else."

Maybe, like you say, I'm wrong, and we'll eventually see that the right move was to have MORE ridiculous theories associated with our principled message. We'll see. If I'm right, though, and the 9/11 truth (etc) connection actually leads to LESS people supporting liberty than more, wouldn't you agree that it makes sense to try to minimize that connection? Or should we embrace obstacles to achieving our goals in the name of "markets"? Again, I'm not trying to silence anyone, I just want to acknowledge that it's a worthy goal to encourage people to play down conspiracies when spreading the message of Liberty.

I don't reject free market theory, I'm just suggesting that perhaps the negative consequences resulting from the "bad products" of particularly crazy theories are not nearly prevalent enough, because eventually the rational people don't want to bother downvoting stupid posts when they can better spend their time with more relevant activism - leaving behind only the craziest of the crazy.

So, while the freedom to leave and go elsewhere does produce efficient ideas for the movement in general, it certainly does not necessarily produce more efficient ideas specifically within the DP. The market is simply deciding that DP users are irrational, and activists are taking their efficient ideas to those more "official" (AKA not fringe and inconsequential) arms of the movement.

Mostly agree

But again, if things take place voluntarily, the continuation of bad product is impossible in the long run. The suckers who buy into these things can be demonstrated as fools, bad results become obvious, better options are selected....If something persists against serious obstacles, such as 9/11 truth, it could be that it isn't actually a bad product...it could be that the bad product is the information outlets that tell you you're not allowed to think about this topic.

And, like I said elsewhere, it could be that all this conspiracy stuff is bringing in a whole lot of younger folks and more intelligent or inquisitive types, and is really only alienating the adult diaper crowd and people with mediocre IQs...and so it could be that despite the popular notion that conspiracy theorizing is harmful, it has ultimately been a huge plus and instrumental in growing and solidifying the movement.....It could be. I don't know. I'm not prepared to say anything absolutely, except that the conversation shouldn't be restricted.

This is not a free market

This is a democracy. Everyone here has a vote. The mob votes. This is NOT a free market system, dont kid yourself. This is a democracy which is a terrible form of government. The mob system brought us the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. Don't ever equate the two please.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson

You can select another site

If the system of organization in combination with the participants here don't appeal to you, you can spend your time and energy elsewhere...not that I'm saying I want you to leave, I'm just saying, that is very definitely the market at work. There is a forum, a product, a system offered here that you can *voluntarily* partake of or not. That's the essence of the market.

You are partially right

The INTERNET is a free market. But this site in and of itself is most certainly not. I can choose to go to another site. Sure. But the way this site is organised is like a democracy. We, the DP users, act as a mob. We vote on everything through "ups" and "downs". You get one vote. The entire group decides, it's a democracy, not a free market.

"Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics." -Thomas Jefferson