19 votes

A moral Dilema: Do you have a moral obligation to bankrupt a murderous and corrupt government?

If you know your govt is:

1. Murdering innocent men, woman and children across the globe.
2. Funding Terror.
3. Impoverishing a planet
4. Causing untold death, starvation and poverty.

Do you have an obligation to starve it of funds?

Perhaps you have a moral obligation to leave the country and stop contributing to its tax base?

Perhaps you even have a moral obligation to take as much welfare as possible, hastening its collapse?

What are your thoughts?

R



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And The Ron Paul Part?

...never heard Ron Paul make the Rothschild the center of his campaign...(he actually payed taxes to those crooks) Down with Ron Paul!!! *sarcasm*

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Are You A Christian?

...Because if not it will be a waste of time to further debate this. If you are then how do answer to when Paul taught the Roman Christians to submit to the governing authorities under the most Godless government there was at the time. The Christians were commanded to pay taxes when the Roman Government was doing as many ungodly things as the U.S. is doing today.

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Paul was a corrupt Jew who forgave himself in the name of GOD

I have my belief in God but I do not follow your immoral dogma. If you are so dense to not understand that submision to thieves is wrong your lost. To think you can convince me otherwise is just plain stupid. Best go back to your vile ways and keep atempting to corrupt others because i am discusted by you.

sovereign

Don't Call Me Vile And Don't Be Disgusted...

... I gave my religious views and I gave my Political views. My point was that we should work together to abolish the IRS and while doing this, pay our taxes so we stay out of jail. I simply gave my religious views to further explain why I believed that.

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Well glad you put it in plain english

I would even go as far to say we need to earn as little as we need and work tword needing no FRN's. The new American dream to live a sumwhat moral life.

In my good name these so called governemnts and their employees have commited many many acts of immorality. I reject them.

Jesus commited one act of violence, the money changers he threw their tables over.

Jesus faced with the temptation/offer from Saten for one act of immoral submission but Jesus did not offer to submit to that nor did he use violence. His example was enlightened disengagement get behind me Satan. He turned his back upon the immoral offer.

We also need to turn our backs upon the immoral offer of extorted theft submission called tax.
We agree on your above points. But the argument that give unto Cesar what is Cesar to justify submission to immoral extorted theft we can never agree, no matter what book you may read from.

sovereign

You Are Using The Excuse Of...

...not "submitting to them" just so don't have to pay taxes. How did Ron Paul handle this? He payed his taxes and fought the system with everything he had. And your example of Jesus telling the devil to get behind him, that is totally not applicable because the Devil was never Jesus' "government" or "authority".

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excuse of not subminting just to not pay taxes

Amazing. EXCUSE? Its not an excuse. Please stop calling it tax. THat is not an accurate word for extorted theft. Do you need a excuse to stop extortionist and theives. Are you moraly bankrupt?

sovereign

Then Maybe You Should Get Off The Grid...

... if that means unplugging your computer I really won't mind.

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The government was never my or your authority you choose

that. Ron Paul is but a messenger to me he only shows the problem and never provided a solution. He has not fixed the problem and he does not have a way out. Enlightened disengagemnt is the way out. You profess to be such a bible believer yet when given a example of Christ you throw it out thats realy ironic. Ok look at Ghandi or Martin L King or any other great enlightened disengagement advocate.
Perhaps like chicken little you only like to shout the sky is falling in and when given solutons you only keep crying the sky is falling in. Give solutions im tired of you cowardly promotion of going along with evil while your crying out that its not fair or right. I only shake my head.

sovereign

What A Very Very Very Ignorant Statement...

... I never thought that I would hear on the Daily Paul how Ron Paul "never provided a solution" to the problems we face. What the heck do you call "ending the fed" "bringing the troops home" "getting the government out of our bedrooms". Shame on you. I have put up with you this entire debate until you said such a shameful statement as that. The truth is Ron Paul doesn't espouse your "theories" on who is running the system so you just say he "never provided any solutions". You tell me to provide solutions... here you have it:

End the Fed = stopping the government from madly printing money and devalueing our currency

Bring the troops home = cutting billions of dollars from wasteful military spending

Restoring personal Liberty to the states = shrinking the size of the Federal Government

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Were not

all Apostles and Jesus mother Jews?

Was god important to instruct his desciples properly and interfere when the core of his teachings was corrupted. Looks like you enjoy arrogating to yourself a role of a wise central planner to be able to cast the final judgement - which Jew is corrupt.

Keep in mind

that without Constantine's mother, Christianity would had disappeared as thousands of similar sects had done at the time, before and after.

After the mother, the spread of Christianinty was via government force rather than its ideology. Take a case study - how Russia adopted Christianity.

Hey Viper, THAT is wrong.....

You've got a half right. You are only supposed to go along with the program as long as it matches up with God's ways.

What is God's ways? I think we all know or can sense it, but that's beyond the scope of this conversation.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

I Respect Your Comment, But...

...Paul taught the Roman Christians to submit to the governing authorities under the most Godless government there was at the time. The Christians were commanded to pay taxes when the ROman Government was doing as many ungodly things as the U.S. is doing today.

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Denise B's picture

Yes, but what

is the highest governing authority in this country right now? It is the United States Constitution. All of our public officials take an oath to uphold and protect this document and the moment they violate that oath, they are no longer a lawful governing authority, but oathbreakers and outlaws. See my article which addresses this subject: http://www.dailypaul.com/257766/30-pieces-of-silver-an-indic...

Paul also states, if you owe taxes, pay them; however, there is a lot of legitimate concerns about the Constitutionality of the Income Tax as it is currently being imposed. There are many, including me, who assert that wages are not income as it is used in the 16th Amendment and there are court cases which back this assertion up.

To compare ancient Rome's governing authority to the governing authorities of the United States is mis-leading. We have a government set up by the people, of the people, for the people with a Constitution that severely restricts the governing authorities scope of authority. I agree with Thomas Jefferson..."Resistance to tryanny is obedience to God."

Very well spoken Denise!

A+

" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~

Denise B's picture

Thank you holbrook,

I appreciate your kind remark :)

"Whatever Source Derived"???

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

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Denise B's picture

Yes, but what is

the legal meaning of the term "income" as it is used in the 16th Amendment. Congress did not define this term when they passed the amendment so the courts ruled that it had to mean whatever it meant at the time the amendment was passed, which they essentially ruled was a corporate profit. If you look at the footnote in Doyle v. Mitchell Bros., the court noted that "gross income" was determined after all expenses were deducted from all gross receipts, and what was left was "gross income"...yet today they treat "gross income" as meaning all receipts, which it is not. Also, try looking up the definition of the term "income" in the Internal Revenue Code...it states that income is: "all income from whatever source derived".

Everyone with a basic understanding of english knows that you cannot define a word using the word you are trying to define. If I defined "gross widgets" as all widgets from whatever source derived, do you have any greater understanding of what a widget is?

Also can a legal definition change depending on who it is in reference to? How is it that corporations only pay on their "income" after all costs of sale and expenses are deducted, yet when it comes to individuals you are not given the same benefit? Why can't I deduct my gas, car expenses, housing and all of the other items I incur expenses on before I reach my taxable "income"? And these are only a few of the issues...there are many, many more. Like how can I be forced to file a tax return under the pains and penalties of perjury without violating my 5th Amendment rights? How come there is no liablity section for income taxes in the Internal Revenue Code? Look it up yourself under the liabilities section. Every single other tax in the code has a liability section detailing who is liable to pay the tax, except for the income tax. Why do you think that is? And that is only a few of the issues I have detailed for you...there are a lot more.

You Are Very Intelligant And I Appreciate...

... You taking the time to explain this to me. Correct me if I am wrong but you said that the constitution is the supreme law of the land. I agree. The constitution is unclear on the word "income" therefore if I follow the Bible I should go to the next level of authority and if they tell me to pay taxes, I will. Not as much to you but to everyone who is attacking me for my views I will ask you one thing, do you pay taxes? or am I talking to folks in jail.

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Denise B's picture

As I stated earlier,

if the Constitution is unclear on a particular subject (which should be very rare because it is written in plain english and in most cases can be read and understood by a person of average intelligence), the Supreme Court is usually looked to for clarification. This happened in a flurry of cases after the 16th Amendment was passed and the court defined the term "income" as used in the Amendment was a corporate profit. This is the reason why the term "income" is not defined in the IRC and also why there is no section in the IRC making anybody liable for it. If they gave the actual definition of the term and showed that only corporations (and in some cases federal employees) were liable for it, well then we would all know the truth.

As far as your question regarding whether or not I pay taxes, let's just say I pay all legitimate taxes that I owe. Unlike some people's stance, I do not think that all taxes are bad and when they are written in accordance with our laws (especially the Constitution) and do not violate a person's rights then they should be paid. The income tax; however, does not fall into that category.

Another

A+

" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~

This is an incorrect interpretation of Romans 13 brother.

Paul himself resisted government submission when the Romans came for him in Antioch. Here's a good article written by Chuck Baldwin that I think would be edifying for you to read.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/baldwin1.html

What Verse Are You Referring To...

... I see know reference of Paul resisting the government in Antioch. Maybe I'm missing it.

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OK.....

I see what you are getting at. And I thought you already knew what the come back was going to be. BUT there's some dissonance goin on here. It appears that both our points can be taken at equal value.

With that said, I'll gladly stand my position as I know you would rather too.

Have a Merry ? and a happy ?

(Just put it that way cause nobody really fully comprehends the birthday, or for that matter, what/the calendar).....

(I like dots).....

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

I Still Don't Get Your Point...

... sorry

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You are the sovereign in a republic!

In our republic each individual is his/her own sovereign, meaning that every man is his/her own Ceaser. As a fellow Christian I must inform that your quotes are thus taken out of context.

Everybody Is "his/her own Caesar"???

...you are living in a Libertarians dream. Anyone here can tell you that we aren't our own Caesar. We get thrown in jail for not paying taxes. We WERE a Republic, and me and you and Ron Paul are here to return our Country to that point.

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So why do you still work for payment in the form of

compounding debt notes that seem to force you to have to submit to immoral extorted theft and the collection theives.
Enlightened disengagement, Get off grid, grow you own food, never earn more money than what the theives consider worthy of sending collection gangs to collect. Stop buying corporate goods.

you dont have to jump off the cliff you can climb down at your own pace.

Enlightened means that when faced with a situation that would put you in prison its best to avoid that situation at all costs, you cant do anyone any good dead or in a corporate work prison.

Its best to stay happy and positive best to be non agressive and defensive.

If your not a threat chances your not a target.

sovereign

I Agree...

...but as long as you ARE living on the grid it is immoral to not pay your taxes.

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