57 votes

Guns may kill 12,000 per year, but Hospitals kill 195,000.

A few questions for Gun Control advocates:

If 12,000 gun deaths a year is reason enough to ban guns, then what about 195,000 medical malpractice deaths a year?

There are only 690,000 doctors in the United States, and between 150-200 million gun owners in the United States, is it not statistically true that doctors are more dangerous than gun owners?

Using this same standard, should we ban hospitals?

What about 32,000 deaths from automotive accidents, should we ban cars?

Why are guns a higher priority than motor vehicle fatalities, or medical malpractice fatalities?

Someone could say "Ah ha! But we need cars and hospitals, we don't need guns!"

The argument that we don't need guns is highly debatable, but lets consider for sake of argument something that we don't actually need, cigarettes and alcohol.

Annually around 435,000 people are killed by tobacco related illnesses and 83,000 die from alcohol related causes, should we have prohibition of cigarettes and alcohol?

Do we need a nanny state to protect us from every conceivable risk in life?

In Summer 2012 alone 137,000 people drowned, should we ban swimming?

On average 20,000 die every year from Sexually Transmitted Diseases, should we ban sexual intercourse?

I could come up with hundreds of examples, but you get the picture.



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so arm doctors

and nurses of course.

yes but

Hospitals can't help defend against tyranny.

You are far too charitable by your inaccuracy! It is far higher!

As of serious studies done in 2003, hated by the PharmoMedical industry, it's funding pulled upon releasing the first part, and published under a couple of titles, including "Death by Medicine", we had already learned that more people die each year as a direct result of the 'dark ages' philosophy guiding the hands of the petrol/chem/pharma/medical laboratories called hospitals... than from any other cause of the modern age. Governments had been able to kill 100s of millions in the 20th century, but the medical/bigPharma bias has easily exceeded even that monster!

It would require 747s, full, dropping out of the skies into a neighborhood new you, daily, at a rate of over 2,000 wide-bodied 747s PER DAY.... to achieve the over 800,000 rate who die annually by mistakes in hospital settings or related!!

It is too vulgar and grotesque to even comprehend... certainly for the average electorate!

To a people already captivated by the Fuehrer Principe, one human being's death told with great pathos is far more compelling than millions of defenseless unborn freemen murdered in the womb, far more gripping a news story than the millions of humanity murdered at the hands of this dark ages scourge!

To learn more of this great sign of the times, just study the sources researched.

Here is a text view of some of the data (Link at bottom) which begins:

ABSTRACT

"A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million.1 Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics.2, 2a

The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million.3 The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million.4 The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251. 5"

Table 1: Estimated Annual Mortality and Economic Cost of Medical Intervention

Condition Deaths

Adverse Drug Reactions 106,000
Medical error 98,000
Bedsores 115,000
Infection 88,000
Malnutrition 108,800
Outpatients 199,000
Unnecessary Procedures 37,136
Surgery-Related 32,000

Total 783,936

And it gets worse!

http://www.whale.to/a/null9.html

In 2004, 783,936 people died because of American medical system

Death by Medicine By Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; and Dorothy Smith, PhD http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

This fully referenced report shows the number of people having in-hospital, adverse reactions to prescribed drugs to be 2.2 million per year. The number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections is 20 million per year. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million per year. The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million per year.

The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US. (By contrast, the number of deaths attributable to heart disease in 2001 was 699,697, while the number of deaths attributable to cancer was 553,251.5)

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

QUICK!!

We need hospital control!!!

Automobile Control

It could be argued we do need some automotive travel (for paramedics or firefighters for example), same as we could argue we need some guns (for police for example, or the president could argue his armed guards are necessary). Ok, so then let's ban all leisure travel. Automobile control. We could say that a family drive to the park or to Disneyland or to go camping just isn't worth the lives that are risked. We could accuse anyone who opposes of having "blood on their hands," the blood of all those lives lost by the additional road travel that leisure drives contribute. Intelligence includes a sense of perspective. Otherwise, it's just mindless knee-jerking.

What cause most deaths worldwide? All time mortality rate report

What cause most deaths worldwide? All time mortality rate report!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpSfDYFSCk

Respect for Ron Paul and his followers from Romania!

Positive support for Ron Paul ideas! Support from the Restoration and Liberty Movement on http://cristianpaduraru.com

craciun fericit, paduraru--

.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Thanks! "Think the top three

Great Video! I fixed the link to your video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpSfDYFSCk

"Think the top three killers in the world are scourges like AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria? Think again, of heart disease, respiratory infections and stroke.

Think preventing death is the best way to tell if we’re winning the war on disease? You better think again about that as well since rates of obesity, chronic pain, injury and mental illness may say more…."

You mentioned infections in the video so I will post some statistics:

MRSA infections kill over 19,000 people a year. 85% of MRSA infections are contracted in hospitals.

"With enough of us, around the world, we’ll not just send a strong message opposing the privatization of knowledge — we’ll make it a thing of the past." ~ Aaron Swartz

Even if guns kill 12,000 per

Even if guns kill 12,000 per year.
A low estimate of mass killings by 20th century (100 years) governments, after disarming their citizens, is 48.9 million.
(source: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/12/epj-versus-huff...)

At 12,000 per year, it will take over 4,000 years for U.S. to equal what 20th century governments have done in just 100 after disarming citizens.

I think the article says

I think the article says those deaths were over the three year period studied, not per year. Am I wrong?

Read the title of the article.

"In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA"

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Where do you get 195,000 from?

I agree with your sentiment but feel your argument is purely inflammatory.

Duh

http://www.dailypaul.com/267400/guns-may-kill-12000-per-year...

November 6th 2012 I voted for Dr.Ron Paul
"We must remember, elections are short-term efforts. Revolutions are long-term projects." ~ Ron Paul

Purely inflammatory?

Did you even bother visiting the provided link?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11856.php

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I'm color blind I didn't see the link -- it's not clearly

Besides the OP Thread said Hospitals "murder" and the reports say "human error"

How many "successes" are there -- if we know that then we'll know if this "error rate" is murder or just blunder -- any number of factors can cause errors (fatigue, simple mistakes, poor communication, and wanton murder).

I am the OP.

And nowhere in my post did I ever use the word 'murder'.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Sorry -- meant to say "kill" -- Because one can "kill" and not

"murder"

Kill is a synonym to Murder according to Thesaurus.com

Main Entry: kill  [kil] Show IPA

Part of Speech: verb

Definition: deprive of existence; destroy

Synonyms: X-out, annihilate, asphyxiate, assassinate, crucify, dispatch, do away with, do in, drown, dump, electrocute, eradicate, erase*, execute, exterminate, extirpate, finish, garrote, get*, guillotine, hang, hit*, immolate, liquidate, lynch, massacre, murder, neutralize, obliterate, off*, poison, polish off, put away, put to death, rub out, sacrifice, slaughter, slay, smother, snuff, strangle, suffocate, waste*, wipe out, zap

Now you are playing word games...

People are killed in car accidents, people are killed by malpractice, and people are killed by disease.

To say someone was killed by something, is not to say whether they were killed intentionally or unintentionally, justifiably or unjustifiably.

When someone says somebody was killed by x, it just means they died as a result of x.

Just admit you got the wrong impression, instead of carrying on like this.

https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+of+kill&ie=utf-8&...

Kill
/kil/

Verb

Cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing).

Noun

1. An act of killing, esp. of one animal by another.
2. A stream, creek, or tributary: "Kill Van Kull".

Synonyms
verb. slay - murder - destroy - slaughter - assassinate
noun. killing - quarry

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I'm trying to "get at" what you are saying in relation to gun

deaths and to "get at" your statistics and your conclusions.

The question I'd ask is "how many people were successfully discharged from hospitals" (how many lives saved)?

That number is 34,000,000 according to the CDC for 2007.

The CDC said 90,000 deaths were owed to hospital error and infection -- it appears according to Dr. Ozmet that half are infection and half error.

So 45,000 owing to error.

According to CDC: Gun Deaths

16,750 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,624 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
649 unintentional shootings, 311 from legal intervention and 235 from undetermined intent (4% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

That means 235 civilian on civilian and 311 legal intervention lives "may" have been saved (the assumption is that the "intervention" and self-defense prevented an actual death or just a robbery or rape -- the latter being valid in my book for death).

So some number less than 546 were the number of "potential" lives saved that resulted in the death of the assailant.

I don't have numbers on how many lives were saved on "threat of force" where no one was injured; it would be hard to argue that the threat-of-force was in the prevention of murder or in the prevention of theft or bodily injury.

I'm for free-markets so don't conflate my argument with anti-gun ownership -- I own three shotguns myself. I'm trying to help make peoples arguments "better".

Add to this,according to the

Add to this,according to the US Centers for disease and Control 100,000 Americans die annually from the effects of prescription medications.Since they reported that studies show that an estimated 150,000,000 American citizens suffer some form of mental illness during their lives is this not a real problem.In Europe it is slightly higher when it come to the number of people diagnosed with some form of mental illness.

Bob Marshall

75% of all homicides are.....

.....gang related. And of course they won't carry guns once they are outlawed right????? riiiiggght. God I hate how stupid gun control activists are.

Just recently got in a "debate" on a friends FaceBook post with someone about it. It was rather funny as she never once was able to make any counter-points to my huge pile of data I posted, just glossed over it and ignored everything I said pretty much; then eventually just deleted all her replies from the thread....I guess I won.

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -- James Madison

A Major Needed Ban

Besides banning water, hospitals, cars, kitchen knives, pencils, food, chemistry sets and sex, there is another one. Governments are responsible for millions of deaths over the past several years, so we should ban all governments. Better yet, let's ban all life because life is required for death to exist.

Gene Louis
http://www.survivaloftheslickest.com/
Supporting a Needed Tool for Government Feedback:
A Citizen-Operated Legal System.

good to keep things in perspective--

thank you--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

'Dead' On

Great work - all excellent points that need voice behind them. We all know this is a power-grab, let's get these talking points out there to people who are willing to listen to the facts. (I know this seems like a small percentage of people, but they ARE out there, and we should REALLY focus on the youth - they are hungry for truth).

Candidate for Colorado's 3rd Congressional District - www.Casida2014.com
Imagine That! -->> www.ImagineThat911.com
That's Natural! -->> www.ThatsNatural.info
Rebellion! -->> www.PartyDumper.com

I think the difference with

I think the difference with all those things is consent.

When you get into a car, you are consenting to the possibility of an accident. When you get treatment in a hospital, you are consenting to the possibility of malpractice. When you smoke, it is 99.999% likely that you know smoking is bad for you; you are consenting to smoking.

Moreover, all those areas are heavily regulated. Healthcare has been regulated so that doctors have to take responsibility for their malpractice. Tobacco has been regulated to be clearly labeled; many states and local governments have banned it in certain areas, etc. Driving his heavily regulated. Cars have to pass safety standards, safety testing; there are speed limits and an army of cops on the road to enforce the many number of driving laws.

Arms regulation is not nearly that high. Moreover, when you walk into a school and kill 28 people, those people have not consented to it. You are the aggressor.

Let me end with this final question...is there anyone out there, even Ron Paul, or Rothbard, or Thomas Woods, who is against all arms regulations? Should citizens be allowed to have nuclear weapons? RPGs? Bazookas? Biochemical weapons?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

"all those areas are heavily regulated."

What more proof do you need that government regulation is an absolute failure?

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I am perfectly happy with the

I am perfectly happy with the regulation we have on the tobacco companies. Such regulation has led to the decrease in tobacco use by the population, which I am all for.

Nowadays, the consumer feels that if he wants to regulate an industry, he can use his dollar or he can use his vote.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

District of Columbia vs Heller

Justice Antonin Scalia’s Heller statement:

"The Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

http://reason.com/archives/2010/07/01/aftermath-mcdonald-v-c...

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

So you agree with this?

So you agree with this?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a