5 votes

What If God Is A Brutal Authoritarian?

If you don't pay your taxes you'll go to jail.

If you don't believe in God you'll go to hell.

But of course, each is "voluntary" and you have the "free will" to object?

HMMMM...

If force against peaceful individuals is wrong, then why would God do it to those who peacefully reject him? Just something I've been increasingly thinking about.

The reason we object to the income tax is because it's backed up by force, therefore there's no "free will" or freedom to choose otherwise without the potential for serious repercussions. Thus it's not a choice and is a tyrannical act of force against peaceful individuals and WRONG. We see the reality of the income tax - it's the act of a brute or tyrant, not the act of a peaceful or benevolent person.

Well, when it comes to this belief in a hell - I see the same glaring contradiction, only this one is much bigger.

You have free will to choose to believe in God, but if you don't then you'll be burnt in perpetual agony in a place with no doors and no time. If God cannot even grant his own creation liberty, what makes us think it comes "from God"? And if it does, then why hold the threat of hell over our heads when doing so is basically a shakedown by an intellectually weak or dishonest authoritarian?

This question is posed for those who actually believe there is a physical hell and that God will send us there should we CHOOSE not to believe in him, and that it's a perpetual punishment/pain. If there are any on here... lol




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backatcha... ;)

What if God is NOT a brutal authoritarian? :D

Didn't MN say last week....

....he was tired of discussing religion?

I agree and I'm sorry I engaged with replies to this asenine, divisive Op.

I'm blown away that the very people who assert their beliefs are based on reason will gang downvote the very discussion that is based on pure reason and logic. The hypocrisy is thick and nasty. Nuff said.

This Op is the kind of capital L mental m_____bation that goes on which results in zero progress on ANYTHING.

On to positive things.

Thanks!

Tired of discussing religion?

Try not bumping a year old thread.

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine

Separating the wheat from the chaff

The downvoters are the same ones always bellyaching about 'acts of aggression'.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

God is a libertarian--

or at least a person who believes that personal agency is inviolate.

He doesn't force.

The reason there are so many authoritarians in the world is that God allows:

--humans to hurt themselves
--humans to hurt other people

One of the reasons a lot of people stop believing in God when they see starving orphans (or worse) and violations against innocent people of all kinds--

is that they DO believe God is in control.

God masters the universe and is there for anyone who wants to take His counsel--

but He will never force. Not in this world which is designed to be an ultimate test for each person who enters it. So He doesn't rescue innocent babies or other people--

and He allows evil people to do evil things.

He will work in the lives of those who invite Him in--

even if it is to comfort them when evil people do horrible things to them--

as for hell being a punishment--

hell is a place each person makes (or doesn't make) for him or herself by treating others in a hellish way. If a person creates hell for others here on earth, that is what he will have earned for himself.

An evil person would not want to be with good people--

and good people won't want to be around evil people.

The only thing authoritarian that God does is make the final decision as to where each person goes, based upon that person's true heart's desires.

If someone wants a good life in the afterlife, he/she will build it here, not by building empires and gathering wealth, but by treating the people around him/herself in ennobling ways.

God won't force people to do good, but he can't hold back the consequences, ultimately, if they choose to do bad.

There will be order in heaven(s). In My Father's house are many mansions (parascripture)--

those who have been bruised and abused won't have to associate with those who bruised and abused them--

and those who did the bruising and abusing . . . won't be allowed to do it anymore--

Wait a minute; your last sentence--

God doesn't get pleasure out of punishing--

people who don't believe in Him? There are a lot of people who say they don't believe in God who do believe in . . . something; they just aren't sure what--

if they are Godly, they will be rewarded, whether or not they believed exactly in the God others believed in--

We are told a LOT about Jesus Christ in the scriptures--

but the fact is that we do NOT have a perfect picture of God, not physically, not spiritually, not according to all the rules of physics, etc.--

we don't know what He 'looks like', so a person who does good--

will receive good--

being punished for not believing in God--

probably the worst punishment will come to those who say they believe in God and treat their fellow humans in an unGodly way--

if a person says he or she isn't so sure about God but treats his fellow human beings as though they have divine in them--

then God will work that out with that person--

the idea that everyone has to say exactly the same things is why, though I believe profoundly in grace, I am not an evangelical. I believe there are some prayers that are simple and valuable--

but being required to say certain words to get to heaven? No--

Matthew 7:21--

words aren't enough--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Why the caveat? Only those who believe can comment?

Now THAT is authoritarianism in action!

I always find it amusing when someone creates a post then decides who can or cannot join in. Knda like their perception of God.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

ROFL 2 acts of aggression has been perpetrated against me!

This is too funny.

Oh! the sensative souls that play here! Why be they sullying my good rating with those infernal downvotes!

Didn't he write: 'This question is posed for those who actually believe there is a physical hell and that God will send us there should we CHOOSE not to believe in him, and that it's a perpetual punishment/pain,'?

So if I don't believe in a 'physical hell', which I don't, the question is not for me and therefore I shouldn't be commenting on this post! N'est pa? HAHAHAHAHA

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

What if you're a troll?

See, this kind of post is illogical, accusative and dishonest. It is hypocritical to pose a question intended as a figurative slap in the face.

It's also a stupid analogy. You're attempting to equate or compare the Creator with a created entity (government). It's a foul use of the brain God gave you.

When you reject God, the source of all wisdom, you always come out looking like a fool.

Just because you have been blasted with all kinds of religious rubbish and false doctrines and traditions and the accompanying bad behavior, misrepresentation and corruption does not give the excuse to be unkind and vicious with a smile or sneer.

You obviously have no answers because you have no desire for the truth.

You have a heart problem. "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God." Psalm 14:1

I would sympathize with you as a victim of religious zealotry gone wild, but you display no respect or desire for truth, so I have very little sympathy for you, and will not cast any pearls of wisdom your way. You're on your own. Enjoy the life of a skeptic the best you can, the future is very bright for you. (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

Cyril's picture

He is no troll

He is no troll. He is a long time DPer posting interesting content regularly.

It's just not everybody is as cool as I am with God - and I can perfectly understand that, God is very intimate for us to deal with, imo.

True though, evil men of all times have for long defamed or impersonated him (God) making up a poor reputation of him.

Very sad, but hey... What else can I say?

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

I haven't seen any evidence that God is an authoritarian

I haven't seen any evidence that God is an authoritarian - thus, even less a "brutal" one.

I dunno about you guys, but for one simple thing to begin with, I have never witnessed him kill anybody, thus far.

Got videos or pictures, anyone?

But I did hear probably a million times already about men slaughtering others by the loads, by the millions, yes - often times, justifying themselves by "they knew better than anybody" - especially better than their victims, allegedly... - and that it was "necessary" - go figure!

You can even find some who boast and joke about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArlKPSEHGLg

Chilling, or what?

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I wrote this post over a year

I wrote this post over a year ago. Did not realize it'd been brought back up. It was a very fun debate nonetheless. I've certainly moved on past "organized religion". I still have a kind of spirituality but don't pretend to name it God, nor do I pretend to know it's wants or desires.

All I now know is that humans, this world and space exist. I now try to stay firmly planted in the garden of what we KNOW. I've wasted too much energy and thought on bullshit that we don't know. If the God of the Bible who'll put you an eternal punishment exists, then I would never choose to worship such a bizarrely cruel and evil entity.

Tis' that simple.

I feel your pain.

I was raised Catholic and turned from God and the scripture because I could not believe in hell and eternal damnation. It makes no sense. Tortured for eternity? That is pure evil.

As an atheist, I prayed one day while driving and said "God, if you really exist, show yourself to me." For some reason, I really just wanted an answer at that time. He shortly thereafter started to show me himself and my life has never been the same.

Once I learned that eternal torture is a lie and not in the scriptures I was able to open my mind to God's words. The people who are killed in the lake of fire after the second resurrection are dead forever, not tortured forever. See revelation 20 and do some google research. Study the scriptures to find out whether these things are so, if you are so inclined.

God will never choose to share...

His home or glory with such bizarrely cruel and evil people who take all the good things He has given them, corrupt them and then blame Him for the results.

He made us, Satan corrupted us through deceit, yet God had a plan devised before the foundations of the world to provide a remedy for all the sins of man and save us from the natural consequences of sin. His plan entailed suffering in our place, "that He might be just" (Romans 3:26), taking upon Himself the punishment for all of us, rising from the dead and from hell (Psalm 16:8-10; Acts 2:22-36), and offering to all the free gift of eternal life. Those who reject His offer are stuck with the bill and must pay for their own sins.
So don't blame God for being cruel when you are the one who is being cruel to Him. He suffered what you should suffer out of love for you, and if you reject that, then all there is left is His wrath for despising His great love and not respecting what He suffered in your place trusting that you would appreciate it.

He trusted you with life and free will hoping you would believe Him, but not forcing you to. You owe it to Him to trust Him. If you don't, you don't get the gift of eternal life - further His payment will not be credited to your account. The payment is an eternity in hell. You will never finish paying because you are finite, and infinity can never be justified by finiteness.

For those too lazy to look up the reference above, here it is with context:

Romans 3:24-26 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

why on earth did you get downvoted--

I will up you one--

you have some valid and good things to say. I won't say I agree totally with you, because I don't think hell is only one place or God-designed; I think humans design it for themselves and go there, after they have been judged, KNOWING they blew it--

feeling too much shame to ask for more--

I don't think God spends time designing hells; humans who are evil do a good enough job designing their own hells while mortal--

but I like what you have to say--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

He must have purpose for you

else you would not still be here. The eternal punishment is brought on by our choices. There can only be one universal truth. You can't live in a world of obvious consequences and not see the ying and yang of it all.

But about myself I will not boast, except as it concerns my weaknesses (2 Cor 12:5). Let the unbelievers seek praise from each other; I wish that which is from God alone.

deacon's picture

Not a comment on your post

but rather on you comment
A few things i find strange in the bible
All man is a sinner..if this is true,this includes Mary,the mother of jesus
and if mary is a sinner,then so was her offspring
Who created sin? the creator of all did,it was created when he threw them demons unto earth from heaven
Who created them demons?...again,the creator did
Who created that tree in the garden on eden?...again...the creator did that
What was Ezekiel talking about with the wheel within a wheel?
What did them wise follow to find the baby jesus?..stars do not move
What did Jacob see and why did he get a hip ailment for seeing and wrestling with it?
Why does the bible say,a man dies once,is lazarus still alive?
what happened to the 3 recorded in the bible as being transported into heaven, when the bible says,if you look upon my face,you will surely die
and another question about the last comment,did these 3 die yet?
this is, of course rhetorical,and by no means need an answer
D

setting your expectations to high,can cause depressiuon

Answers

All men are sinners - if we are going to believe the scriptures and that Mary and Jesus existed then we can believe what it says about Jesus, that he did not sin. (2 Cor 5:21) Jesus could have sinned, but he chose not to. As for Mary, she was not sinless, the scripture never says she was, only men say that.

Who created sin? - Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). That is the definition; it is equivalent of a crime. So by creating a law, he created sin (or the ability to break the law) because of the freewill of his creations. It was not created when the demons were thrown down; the ability for it to exist was created when he had a law that was capable of being broken.

Who created demons? - God created angels to minister to us (Heb 1:14). They have freewill as well and the ones that decided to follow Satan became known as demons. They were not created evil, they choose it.

Tree in Eden - Yes God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he also said don't eat off of it. That is Adam and Eve's fault; they both willingly broke God's commands.

Ezekiel's wheels - Those are part of the Cherubim, the spirit is in the wheel. How that works? I don't know, all I know is what I read in the papers, as they say. (Eze 1:20)

Stars moving - A "Star" is a way of saying angel. As you should know because you reference Revelation 12:4 which also refers to angels as stars, "Its tail (the dragon, Satan) swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth."

Jacob's Hip - He saw an angel, and the angel touch his hip and messed it up, because apparently they can do that.

Lazarus - It doesn't say he can't die more than once, it just says you’re going to die at least once (Heb 9:27). After the future resurrection that takes place after Jesus' return, men who are resurrected in the 2nd resurrection will face the possibility of dying a second time. (Rev 20 whole chapter)

Heaven - There are three heavens in the bible. 1st heaven is where the birds fly (Gen 1:20), 2nd heaven is where the stars are (Psalm 19:1-6) and the 3rd heaven is where God resides (2 Cor 12:2). Those cases where people where taken to heaven was the 1st heaven, where birds and airplanes reside, then they come back down to Earth once they get to wherever they were being taken to. Lots of research on this one, google it.

Did they die? - See Heb 11:5 for Enoch, it says God took Enoch and he did not "see death" but it also says he did not receive the promise of eternal life (Heb 11:39). Notice it does not talk about "heaven" in the Enoch scriptures. You can research that one more yourself; didn't see death but is also not alive? Blinked out of existence until the resurrection?

Elijah went to the 1st heaven (2 Kings 2:11) and landed somewhere else. We know he landed somewhere else because later he sends a letter (2 Chr 21:12) to a king that reigned after his trip through the sky (heaven). Google it for a full explanation, there are some good papers written about it. So since his trip through heaven was just transportation like stepping on an airplane we can assume he died like everyone else, there is nothing said to the contrary.

Is the third person Jesus? Jesus went heaven twice after his resurrection and it says that he has eternal life. So Jesus did die, was resurrected, and went to heaven soon after, came back and talked with the disciples soon after that, and then ascended in front of them all (Acts 1).

SteveMT's picture

Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

It's not Biblical. It's just what they believe. Here is a reference.
http://www.gotquestions.org/immaculate-conception.html

deacon's picture

Thanks SteveMT

I have a background in Lutheran,Methodist,pentecostal
and a smidgen of Catholicism and baptist.they do have a few things in common though,They all spawned from Catholicism, So,in my minds eye,if one is wrong,and taught the others,well that makes them wrong too
And seeing I am into truth,no man made nothing that is false will sway me
But I will be swayed by truth,seek and you shall find,knock and the door will opened unto you,But one has to be willing to knock and also to see

setting your expectations to high,can cause depressiuon

Baptists were not spawned by Catholicism

"Were it not for the fact that the Baptists have been grievouslytormented and cut off with the knife during the ast 1,200 years, they would swarm greater than all the reformers... If the truth of religion were to be judged by the readiness and boldness of which a man or any sect shows in suffering, then the opinions and oersuasions of no sect can be truer and surer than those of the Anabaptist, since there have been none for the 1,200 years past that have been more cheerfully and steadfastly undergone, and have offered themselves to the most cruel sort of punishment than these people." - Cardinal Hosius, President of the Council of Trent, 1545-1564.

Do the math. (1545-1200=345) The Catholic "church" did not officially exist until the 5th century (between 440-461 A.D.)

"The Roman bishop Leo I (440-461) is considered the first pope by historians, as he was the first to claim ultimate authority over all of Christendom."

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/cath...

One man's claim, however, does not make something so. But this was the beginning of the attempt to consolidate the "Christian church". It was the result of an accumulation of early churches that apostacized and were overrun with pagans. The power of God was removed, due to the deviation from truth and so a false power structure had to be constructed and implemented to maintain a sense of power and authenticity. Satan, of course, uses his spiritual power to maintain a sense of "spirituality" to seduce the masses. It has worked horribly for 1,300 years, and the effects have been devastating to the world.

John Clark Ridpath, a Methodist by denomination, and considered by some to be the greatest historian the religious world has ever known, said,

"I should not readily admit [i.e., I hate to admit this] that there was a Baptist church as far back as 100 A.D., although without a doubt there were Baptist churches then, as all Christians were then Baptists."

Two famous historians of the Dutch Reformed Church, Ypeij and Dermout, said,

"The Baptists may be considered as the only Christian community that has stood since the days of the apostles, and as a Christian society has preserved pure the doctrine of the gospel through all the ages."

There are more historians who say similar things about the Baptists, but this should suffice to show that the Catholicism did not spawn Baptists, but only Protestants (Catholics who protested certain doctrines from within the catholic system).

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

SteveMT's picture

Could not agree with you more, deacon.

My motto, especially with religion, is:

The truth is out there, Neo, and it will find you if you want it to.

Drive-by shooting with words

You said, "this is, of course rhetorical,and by no means need an answer"

Then why post and raise so many erroneous, assumptive accusations?

Only dishonest people do that.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

deacon's picture

Dishonest?

wrong again.these are things I read in the BIBLE,these are why I question it
They are not erroneous or assumptive..read your bible,what I wrote is in there
OH yeh of no faith,believers of man,you know nothing about the bible,but you do know what your pastor told you sunday morning
So,just who is dishonest? well,it is you
DEBUNK it,oh,that's right,you won't,cuz the all seeing all,all knowing
didn't create the devil.lucifer,he was a figment to the ones in the garden of eden,and just as illusive to the one who created then threw him out,and with a1/3 of the rest of his creation,don't believe it? read your bible

setting your expectations to high,can cause depressiuon

Yes, dishonest.

And you prove it by making more assumptions and accusations.

"OH yeh of no faith,believers of man"

Making false accusations and assumptions is not honest.

1. I have great faith. I believe what God says.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
2. I do not believe in what men say, they are fallible and make many mistakes, misunderstand things and interpret things wrongly. I believe what God says in His Word, and I recognize that the Bible inteprets itself. This is why I do not believe your interpretations. You are very biased because of your bad experiences.
Psalm 118:8 "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."

"you know nothing about the bible"
You really expose yourself here. Check out my comments; on average, no one quotes or references the Bible more than I do when I make points based on a biblical truth. I've been reading the Bible every day of my life since I could read. Been teaching it for over 40 years.

"but you do know what your pastor told you sunday morning"
Who wouldn't, if they were paying attention? But knowing what someone said and believing it like a lemming are two different things. Again, you make a false assumption. Everytime I hear a preacher preach, I search the scriptures to see if those things are so. (Acts 17:11)

"DEBUNK it,oh,that's right,you won't,cuz the all seeing all,all knowing
didn't create the devil.lucifer"
Again, you make a false assumption. I Do believe the "all seeing", "all knowing" God created the devil, Lucifer.
I believe it because the Bible says so.
(Ezekiel 28:12-15) Verse 12: the king of Tyrus is referring to the spiritual king, not the earthly king, as evidenced by the fact that he was in Eden, the garden of God. The only ones in the garden of Eden were Adam, Eve, God and Satan.
Verse 15: "...from the day that thou wast created..."
He is named in Isaiah 14:12 - "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
I also believe, because the Bible says so, that God created evil.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Your problem stems not from what God says, but from your inability to understand His Word.

But that's because you are spiritually dead.
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You can't discern God's Word without faith in Him and His Word. You are blinded. That's why you make such outlandish accusations and assumptions that are so easily debunked. You have no logical defense so you attack the messenger.

Your only hope is to desire to know the truth instead of desiring to be free from a perceived bondage.

I am free from the bondage of "religion" because I put my faith in the Word of God instead of the word of men. Most religious people are in bondage o their respective religion and have not learned to think on their own and stand for something that is greater than themselves; hence selfishness, pride and arrogance rule the day with most people when given freedom to exercise power over someone else.

I've been a member of the DP community for over 6 years, but you will not
find a trail of posts anywhere, not even in the religion section that shows I am trying to push my beliefs on anyone. Yet the DP is riddled with posts by atheists that at best are offensive to Christians. I only respond once in a while (when I can afford the time) when I see blatant falsehoods being promulgated as you have made in your comments on this thread.

Other probable reasons for your problem in getting so many things wrong could be that you have been the victim of a false religion or a liberal "church" and also, maybe you have a corrupted "bible".

You obviously have a brain. It is your responsibility to use it rightly.

"Fool me once - your fault; fool me twice - my fault," would be a good thing to keep in mind. But just because some religious deceiver fools you twice does not excuse you from your responsibility to not be fooled by the Devil. You are still responsible before God to use your brain justly.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

If you want to know the truth, it cannot be hidden from you forever, but if you reject Him Who is the Truth, you will never know it.

BTW, your spelling and punctuation are a good indicator of the sloppiness with which you use your brain. That alone will cause some people to distrust what you have to say. However, I take exception to what you say, not how you say it. You obviously have been exposed to a lot of biblical subjects, but you clearly do not have a good understanding of the Bible. You sound like a skeptic who has been in a false, corrupt religious institution that wrongly calls itself a church. No wonder you have the perspectivbe you have. I wonder thst with all the vitriol you have for the Bible and religion, why would you use a monniker like "deacon"? It seems disingenuous at the least and diabolical at the most.

I hope you will admit your dishonesty and desire to know the truth - even if it hurts at first.

Psalm 51:6 "Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts..."

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

Some of those things are where

Faith comes in. We are not meant to understand every little thing. Mary was saved by the grace of her choice to carry "The Savoir". Original sin was made by a choice not to listen to a few simple rules. Like the Commandments...reasonable common sense rules to live by. A demon is created by the choice to live within the wicked "spirits" i.e. anger, envy, lust, hate..... insert negative emotion here. The demon is within all our corrupt flesh if we choose to follow it's every desire.

But about myself I will not boast, except as it concerns my weaknesses (2 Cor 12:5). Let the unbelievers seek praise from each other; I wish that which is from God alone.

SteveMT's picture

"We are not meant to understand every little thing."

Are these "little things?"
Slaying entire civilizations including children, babies, and pregnant women without mercy.
Saving 32,000 virgins alive for the Hebrew soldiers.
Destroying the world by the flood.
Allowing a debaucher like Solomon to write the Bible and even permitting such a despicable man communication with the Almighty.
Jesus supposedly dying for every sin ever to be committed, except for the holding back of just a little money by Ananias and Sephira. They were both slain as if Jesus never redeemed anyone.

this is where I think the Old Testament--

is flawed. I don't believe God did any of those things. I think people did them and blamed God--

I also don't think the story of Ananias and Sephira is correctly told--

As for Jesus dying for every sin, I don't know how He did it, but I'm hanging on to that hope--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

SteveMT's picture

I do not believe that He did any of that either.

That is where I've been at also. There could be a Word of God in there somewhere, but there are parts that are definitely not the Word of God. Nefarious people used the name of God to justify their actions and commanded that others do the horrible things that they did.

deacon's picture

can't see it

the demon in question.lucifer,the devil,were created by god,if the bible is to be believed,and in its entirety, then gos created everything,including the devil,which he chose to throw to earth,along with a 1/3 of his hosts,so he
created this whole mess,he alone could have made the choice and done away with the ones he threw out,he gave them all to us to war against,and now,all of them are are sitting in their high places called gov's,and they war against us every day
If he is all knowing,then he also knew they would end up there,and what they would do(after all,they did try the same thing in heaven),so instead of getting rid of them tyrants once and for all,he gave them all to us,and now,they all lord over us

While what you say about Mary might be right,it does not make her holy,nor does it make her a non sinner,you know,if we all sin and fall short,then this does include Mary,as she herself needed a savior just like us
If what you say is true,then more people could claim the same thing called grace,including myself
As far as the 10 commandments go,shortly after there writing,the god who created them also broke them,and he also told his own people to break them.
then along comes the new testament,and it says the time will come when all hear the word,them old testament people never heard the word,they were just slaughtered right along with their sinning animals.Whole cities were demolished along with its people,who,by the way,never heard of the creator,but did go mans own created gods,this to me,is what most so-called christians do to this day
Negative emotions are not bad,just as money isn't bad,it is what we do with them that matters
D

setting your expectations to high,can cause depressiuon

Your not trying to see.

How can you see when your leading with doubt, doubt, and more doubt? "Everything" revolves around what YOU believe. Your thoughts have weight and power here brother. Why does a placebo work as well as so called medicine? Look into the "Law of Attraction" sometime. God bless your mind, heart and, soul. May God pour out his saving love, mercy, and grace upon you.

But about myself I will not boast, except as it concerns my weaknesses (2 Cor 12:5). Let the unbelievers seek praise from each other; I wish that which is from God alone.