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What If God Is A Brutal Authoritarian?

If you don't pay your taxes you'll go to jail.

If you don't believe in God you'll go to hell.

But of course, each is "voluntary" and you have the "free will" to object?

HMMMM...

If force against peaceful individuals is wrong, then why would God do it to those who peacefully reject him? Just something I've been increasingly thinking about.

The reason we object to the income tax is because it's backed up by force, therefore there's no "free will" or freedom to choose otherwise without the potential for serious repercussions. Thus it's not a choice and is a tyrannical act of force against peaceful individuals and WRONG. We see the reality of the income tax - it's the act of a brute or tyrant, not the act of a peaceful or benevolent person.

Well, when it comes to this belief in a hell - I see the same glaring contradiction, only this one is much bigger.

You have free will to choose to believe in God, but if you don't then you'll be burnt in perpetual agony in a place with no doors and no time. If God cannot even grant his own creation liberty, what makes us think it comes "from God"? And if it does, then why hold the threat of hell over our heads when doing so is basically a shakedown by an intellectually weak or dishonest authoritarian?

This question is posed for those who actually believe there is a physical hell and that God will send us there should we CHOOSE not to believe in him, and that it's a perpetual punishment/pain. If there are any on here... lol



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deacon's picture

Not trying to see?I didn't "see"

the great flood in the bible,where it says all of man kind
save for one family had drowned? But yet,I still do not "see"
different colored people around this planet?
I did not "see" the wheel within a wheel Ezekiel wrote about?
which,to me sounds a lot like alien spacecraft
I did not "see" the story in Daniel where he speaks of the wisemen
and their time to follow a star to where Jesus was?
Let me ask you,do stars move?,yes they can be used for charting,as they are a constant in the night sky,but,do they move? the bible says this one did
I did not "see" the 10 commandments where it states DO NOT KILL,but then
joshua was sent out to do just that!!
NO?... I guess I didn't "see"a thing

Nothing revolves around what I believe,but it does revolve around what I have read,And this includes "the missing books of of the bible". You know of these right?
IF you don't,then how can you preach to me using a bible that is not complete?
Can I take every other page out of a book,have you read it,and then expect a complete summary of that book from you?

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Your mind is like concrete...

all mixed up and set.

You're certainly not qualified to teach the Bible. Why do you even attempt to do so?

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

deacon's picture

Really

Then what does it say about you?
what I posted was right out of the bible,can't handle truth?then why are you here?
And I see,all you did was try to belittle,could it be,you have no substance?
And no facts lol
you could try again,try debunking anything i put to print,but in doing so,you would be debunking the bible :)

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

See below...

I would disagree that 'eternal punishment' has anything to do with it.

The answer...

...is: God is Love.

Every creative, or other kind of action God engages in is for the fulfillment of this very nature of His being, of all reality.

He has made creatures, other distinct beings, so that they may grow into full participation in Love; but a genuine 'otherness' in our persons is only possible through a journey of becoming, of choosing to embrace Love by our own volition, as the all-encompassing Truth, our very life, the ground of our very being; dethroning the Self that vies to make itself god and distort reality; becoming the executioner of our own faults and the lies and distortions that would stand between us and Love; gaining perspective on the full tragedy of what non-Love brings -- hatred, strife, chaos, death, darkness.

God is Love. God is just. God is merciful. Therefore, His justice must be merciful, and His mercy must be just; and both His mercy and justice are only for reconciling all to Love -- NOT for the arbitrary, supposed retribution gained by mere punishment, or suffering.

You ask to be left alone by God to your own self, to determine your own truth -- your wish will be granted; but you will discover in time that by withdrawing yourself from the very Source and ground of reality, of goodness, light, Love, you will find yourself withdrawing from everything BUT yourself; and soon you will be left in the outer darkness, alone, free to create the world of lies in your own mind, as you wish, but without the joy of relation to reality or any other creature or anything, that can only come by embracing it.

I believe that every soul that finds itself in outer darkness through withdrawal will reach a breaking point, will like the prodigal cry out in hatred of the lies they have become, of the non-Love they have pursued over Love and will find that though the Face of Love may have turned away, the Hand of Love still holds them, as the ground of their being, and is ready to draw them back fully into Love's embrace, when they so decide.

And God has demonstrated this Love through the life and death and resurrection of His Son, who flung Himself into the yawning chasm that stood between Him and us His brethren, the children of His Father, and showed us the Way of Love, and was dedicated to that no matter what waves of darkness and death and mockery might break upon Him. He even knows what that outer darkness is like -- for He cried out 'My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken Me?!' when it felt from the human perspective as if the Father was turning His face away. And yet He still declared 'My God!' realizing that His Father's hand was upon Him, for the higher purpose of Love, and would never let go.

Christ showed the Way of Life, of Love, of the Servant, of dethroning Self, of loving God and neighbor. And He is the very Life that will enable you to do the same, if you so choose to open that door.

But be warned -- it is not a matter of having correct opinions about Love; it is a matter of obeying Love, of being Love, of doing Love. You have to take up your cross daily and follow Him. Not just arrive at a correct theory about Him before you follow.

And I am learning that I have done too much thinking and theorizing and not enough following and becoming in my own life. No more! I am ready to destroy anything within me that will come between my self and Love. I would rather hell if it be to bring me to Love and Truth than to keep the pale decay of theories and sin instead.

The Ends are a Product of the Means

I grew up Unitarian (1970's) in a very Southern Baptist area. There was a Jewish family who also lived on my street, but they were ran out of the neighborhood in about '78 as Jews were even more hated by the Baptists than the Catholics.

When I discussed my Sunday school classes with my friends, I explained that God was Love and they explained that God was Fear. They were taught to not do bad things or else you go to Hell, I was taught to do good things, well, because they were good. God didn't necessarily reward you for doing good, but rather because He loved you.

It's the Carrot and the Stick. Oddly enough you could do bad, in fact Evil, and still get away with it as long as you were 'Saved'. I really didn't pay that much attention to the oddities of Christians until my brother was killed when I was 11 and I was told time and time again, by Adults and Children that my brother was frying in Hell and I better get Saved if I didn't want to end up there like him.

Hell was not as scary to me as the God my neighbors portrayed. What kind of God sends a child to Fry in Hell just because he was taught to Love God and His creatuers, rather than to Fear God and Obey Him or ELSE!

I really don't like the 'Heaven' that many Christians paint. A bunch of souls who only got there by getting 'Saved' and only then spending an Eternity worshiping God. Guess that's better than an Eternity frying in Hell, but what sort of God needs to be worshiped for Eternity? Don't you think he'd get bored of a bunch of relative idiots praising Him day after day after day after day?

Okay, so he created a vast Universe with only one Intelligent species where most are sent to Hell to fry and suffer for Eternity, and the few who worship Him correctly get to worship and praise Him for Eternity?

Is that not odd? Is that all there is? Is Heaven just full of a bunch of dead sinners who got Saved in order to avoid punishment? Creating a Universe is pretty awesome, but creating it to Shock and Awe those You made in Your image into submission takes away from it in my humble opinion.

I share...

...much of your perspective, Steve (see above). I've been in the camp that would talk about a distorted God who was a cruel caricature of the face of Love revealed in the Son. We almost have this schizophrenic view of good cop, bad cop of the Son and the Father, when Christ said His Father and He were at one.

I am very sorry for the story of your brother -- but I am confident that Love is still the ground of his being, whatever state he or anybody on the other side is in, and will He not work until all is reconciled? How else could God be finally 'All in All'?

Water under the Bridge

Thank you SteveMT and Micah68. I've come to terms with my brother's death, though he is still missed by the whole family.

SteveMT's picture

Steve, Your comment makes much too much sense.

What you have had to go through has not been easy. I feel your pain and disillusionment, and your questions are as big as the universe itself. People have put words into the mouth of God for millenniums. Based on those words, people have attempted to act-out what they believed to be what God would say and do, like people in front of the screen imitating the characters of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. They were and they still are wrong.

You can't see the truth

if your not trying to live it. And "trying" is the operative word here. You will still never be perfect. But you can try. You will still fall and have suffering as we all do. You have to pray for something higher than mere human understanding thus the "Holy Virtues". Ask for what is good in "His Word" and you shall receive. There can be no good in us without "Him".

If you truly want that answer...

Read " the great controversey " by Ellen G. white.

God bless
Stēkō pharrēsia iēsous

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

This is so ridiculous.

If you want to rebut his argument, use the parts in that book you think will help.

No one is going to read it because you said "read this book, it has the answers." They're not going to waste their time and money taking your word for it. Put some work into your response or don't respond at all.

Accept it or reject it.

That's a choice, I'd explain it, but for those who understand no explanation is necessary, for those who don't understand, no explanation will ever suffice.
The book, written by a Lady with a third grade education, does a far better job of FULLY explaining the answer to the question. They best I could do is produce a muddled synopsis.

I ment no disrespect, your comment however has left a bad tase in my mouth., perhaps you should speak to others as you yourself would like to be addressed?

God bless
Stēkō pharrēsia Iēsous

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Pie in the sky

God almighty

sovereign

"If you don't believe in God

"If you don't believe in God you'll go to hell."

You might want to change the word believe to accept, or something else. A satanist believes in God, they just reject him for his opposite.

(Why do I get a red line for incorrect spelling when I do not capitalize satan, but no red line if I don't capitalize God? I intentionally capitalize God, and lowercase satan because he is lower btw.)

You propose that rejecting God under the threat of hell doesn't give much of a choice, but lots of people choose to reject. Which is a hell of a wager (pun intended) when no intellectually honest person can completely rule out a creator. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Corrupt religious organizations do not equal a lack of creator, it only reaffirms the bible's point on the corruption of man and churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Just because a person has a choice and one of those choices is undesirable, doesn't mean you do not have liberty. You can choose to not work a job but that doesn't mean because you will be broke as shit, you don't have choice.

Have you ever had parents that made you do something that you do not want to do, and later with gained wisdom, understand what they were thinking was in your best interests after all? If God is all knowing, and humans are not, and God means well for his children, then why assume you would know better than him? You don't know what you don't know, and because you don't fully understand something doesn't mean someone else doesn't understand better.

Submission before God is humility instead of hubris. Anyone claiming they know for a fact there is no God is engaged in hubris. They can't know for sure, they are exercising faith. If I told you for sure there was not even microscopic life on other planets and that you can't make me prove a negative, so show me life or I am right, I am an idiot. Because you lack the ability to prove microscopic life at this time, means the jury is still out, not that I am for sure right.

Would not God creating

Would not God creating humanity in these circumstances be stripping them from choice of existing?

I mean in all honesty, if the Christian Theology is correct, why can't I opt out? And simply cease to exist?

Why must I suffer because God himself created me?

Wouldn't him putting me into that situation be considered tyrannous?

Not if He doesn't exist.

If He doesn't exist, then His force could not have been involved in your creation, making your tautological point logically irrelevant and, hence, moot.

Nice try though!

Your counterpoint has no

Your counterpoint has no value because you must presuppose that God does indeed exist.

Of course if God doesn't exist then our creation wouldn't be a tyrannical decision from him, since he doesn't exist.

Also, most "Christians" indeed assume that my creation would be from God himself.

So no, my point stands.

LOL

You can say whatever you want, I suppose, but it doesn't mean what you say is logical.

Either you believe in God or you don't. If you don't, God cannot do something if He does not exist, making your point illogical and moot.

Unless you are saying now that you are a believer?

No but if you are going to

No but if you are going to argue from someone else's point of view, you must assume their views for the sake of argument.

I don't know how this is tripping you up.

Of course I don't believe in God personally, but if I am going to argue that I think "Christian Theology" teaches God to be an authoritarian, then I must assume that God exists for the sake of argument.

Fine. For the sake of argument then.

Bottom line is unless you can take God to court to redress your grievance from being born, you are now born.

It doesn't change God's private property rights to His OWN private property aka "Heavan" or "The Kingdom of God".

Are you saying you don't have to respect His private property rights to His own private property, because he created you? I.e. because you were born you deserve free-entry to His private property and do NOT have to follow his "No shirt, no service" access policy to His private property?

Just because you are pi$$ed you were born?

Why would God create me to be

Why would God create me to be a free willed being, but demand that I do as he pleases. Isn't that a form of slavery?

The bible even says I have free will.

If we assume all this, God indeed is an abusive authoritarian.

If not, he should give me an option upon creation if I want to be apart of this "love him for eternity deal".

Right? I would personally cease to exist if God simply wants more fans.

Well now that's a very silly reply.

You don't know. I don't know.

If you're genuinely that curious, then why don't you ask HIM?!?

It isn't a silly reply, it

It isn't a silly reply, it highlights exactly what the thread is about. That God is a brutal authoritarian.

Try and stick with me, I know it is hard.

Free Will is a Trap

DNA is your creator

you are a vessel

moral acts ensure continued existence
of DNA
which
created you
is contained within you

immoral acts lead to extinction

morality is Life
immorality is Death

do you want to live forever

?

Do you believe in private property rights or not?

"God" has been very clear.

He has a piece of private property called "Heaven" aka "The Kingdom of God."

As such he is sovereign over his private property and "House rules" prevail.

If you want to access His private property, you need to abide by "House rules". No shirt, no service, so to speak.

If you are a libertarian, then you have to respect private property rights. You want access, you play by House rules, simple as that.

If you have a problem with that, then you really aren't a libertarian.

Translation

Doesn't "Heaven" literally translate into "Hammered Bracelet". I'm not sure of the exact translator who said as such, but I have seen this posited elsewhere.

Maybe, but please don't change the subject.

The subject was under what circumstances is one allowed onto private property.

The translation of the title of that property is irrelevant to the point.

Yes, but we were created by

Yes, but we were created by force. We had no choice to either exist or to not exist. If you hate life and reject it, and refuse to worship him, then you burn for all eternity. Life is a sick joke and I reject it. Oh, and I know what's coming to me.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

exactly

You had no choice.
And, your body does not belong to you.
Your body is only temporarily entrusted to you, along with the Life contained within it. Life, that can be passed on to other trustees, or allowed to end. There's where the free will enters the picture.

"...if you're good, you'll live forever.
And, if you're bad, you'll die when you die."

music by Grand Funk Railroad:

http://youtu.be/vWEq-zBC9vs