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What If God Is A Brutal Authoritarian?

If you don't pay your taxes you'll go to jail.

If you don't believe in God you'll go to hell.

But of course, each is "voluntary" and you have the "free will" to object?


If force against peaceful individuals is wrong, then why would God do it to those who peacefully reject him? Just something I've been increasingly thinking about.

The reason we object to the income tax is because it's backed up by force, therefore there's no "free will" or freedom to choose otherwise without the potential for serious repercussions. Thus it's not a choice and is a tyrannical act of force against peaceful individuals and WRONG. We see the reality of the income tax - it's the act of a brute or tyrant, not the act of a peaceful or benevolent person.

Well, when it comes to this belief in a hell - I see the same glaring contradiction, only this one is much bigger.

You have free will to choose to believe in God, but if you don't then you'll be burnt in perpetual agony in a place with no doors and no time. If God cannot even grant his own creation liberty, what makes us think it comes "from God"? And if it does, then why hold the threat of hell over our heads when doing so is basically a shakedown by an intellectually weak or dishonest authoritarian?

This question is posed for those who actually believe there is a physical hell and that God will send us there should we CHOOSE not to believe in him, and that it's a perpetual punishment/pain. If there are any on here... lol

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My body is mine, and so is my

My body is mine, and so is my soul. If they weren't there would be no free will. There was no free will in being created, and there is no free will in being allowed to die and just have it end there instead of burning in hell for rejecting the life that was "given" to us.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Nice tautology try.

If you don't believe in Him, then you were not created by His force, because he doesn't exist.

Hence, your tautological point is illogical and, hence, moot.

Nice try though! :)

WTF are you talking about?

WTF are you talking about? When did I say I didn't believe in him? I just said that I want to have never been created and therefore refuse to worship him. I also refuse to be like that because I just don't want to be that kind of person. Jealousy and power are character faults, and I refuse to believe a perfect being would have such faults.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Yes, God by definition is the ultimate Authority...

... but your understanding of Hell isn't correct, it's not punishment as you conceive it for not-believing in God, even the fallen angels and the devil believe in God but are sent to Hell, it's the rejection of Christ that ulitmately reconciles a person to hell; understand when you reject Christ (usually because you have trouble accepting his moral code) you are accepting the alternative, existence apart from God, God has plans for this earth and for mankind but when you reject him your fate (and the fate of your soul) is then grafted in with the others that have rejected him (ie the fallen angeles) to hades; Remember, Peace, Love, Beauty these are attributes of God, by rejecting him you have thus chosen to be apart from these things... and it's not as if you can then go live off planet somewhere till the end of your days and then determine your own fate of your soul because you have no such authority, the consequences themselves are tied to the Sin, by rejecting Christ you have already chosen the alternative.

then why are we fighting such brutal and dictatorial authority

here on earth, but embracing it in the supposed afterlife? Contradiction-much.

Jury Nullification is a power of the last resort against tyranny.

Because there is a difference

Because there is a difference between someone that means well for you and someone that is out to bully you. Someone that wants the best for you, and someone that wants to get their rocks off by ruling you.

God is like your dad telling you to do things you don't like because it is in your best interests, even though you don't get it fully. Governmental authoritarians are like your brother telling you what to do, not because he means well for you, but he is serving his own interests by exploiting you.

Not all authority is bad, it is the motivation behind the actions that can be either caring or selfish. The very word authority seems to have a bias attached to it among libertarians, in the same way conspiracy theory has a bias attached to it by the main stream.

I make my 4 year old do all kinds of stuff for his own good. I don't get off on a power trip, I find it tiring to do it. It is a labor of love though.

Exactly what you have said,

Exactly what you have said, are arguments that could be made for a government entity.

So no, there isn't a difference between who thinks well or doesn't think well of you. Some would argue that the government restricts freedoms in your best interest.

Also, the argument could be made that God is exploiting you, because he wants companionship with people who will truly love him. So he creates a massive amount of people, filters out the bad ones, and then takes the rest for his own gain.

You are equating the morality

You are equating the morality of God with humans that run governments. I fully understand the motivations of those humans, but I do not fully know the master plan of God.

If God and humans are equal in your opinion, then there is no way I can debate with you. There was an angel that thought he was equal in importance to God, he is now known by many names.

So God is allowed to be a

So God is allowed to be a tyrant, and humans are not.

When humans force control over others, it is terrible.

When a spaghetti monster in the sky does it, it is for the greater good.

Do you see exactly where "the non believers" have issues with the arguments you are proposing?

Personally I hate tyranny at any level, even at the level of a deity.

willful submission vs force/control

Since when does God force anyone to do anything? He wont even stop you from damning yourself if thats what you choose, He is not interested in being a dictator. He gave you free will to decide what you will, as Christian I willfully submit myself to his authority because I have faith and trust that he is good... there seems to be a common presupposition here that God is a bully figure trying to force you to do what he wants, has it ever occured to folks if that's what he wanted that's what he would have created (mindless robotots)?

I have a 4 year old boy, he

I have a 4 year old boy, he sometimes thinks I am being a tyrant, like when I yell at him not to run out in the street without looking.

I am forcing control over him, is what I am doing wrong, or should I allow him to go darting out into traffic?

Non-believers have a problem with submission to God. The ego drives a person to want to think of themselves as something more than they are. They don't like to hand over "control", which is an illusion in itself. Non-believers are like my 4 year old that thinks he knows better than me, but the reality is that he has a lack of information. He is in his own little bubble and doesn't grasp the larger concept that cars may not see him.

I can respect a person that drops their ego and answers the question of God with "I don't know", because that is a logical answer. I cannot respect a person that claims to be sure there is no God. How do they not see that this is an act of faith, no different from the believer they mock?

Guess what, when you 4 year

Guess what, when you 4 year old boy is an adult you will have no say on how he conducts himself or how he lives.

In the God/Follower example this is not the case. This is for eternity.

At the end of the day your boy isn't forced to do anything you have taught him as an adult, and he is not subject to torture if he doesn't.

At the end of the day, the "non believers" are. This is where your argument falls apart.

I may not have a "say" over

I may not have a "say" over my sons actions when he is grown, but I might have influence, especially if he knows I am operating from an angle of wanting good things for him.

If my son is ignorant and ego driven, he may exercise free will and ignore me giving him some good advice, the consequences of such might end up being torturous.

He might be hormonally blinded by a girls looks, and ignore my advise to find one that is not a bitch. The consequence of marrying a bitch might indeed be torturous, it was for me, before I found his mother. I could think of many more examples.

God gives us free will to choose. If we choose poorly, then suffer consequences, is God torturing us or are we making bad decisions?

God advises to conduct yourself in a very upright and virtuous way. If you do not want to be upright and virtuous, can you blame him when he warned you already? If you mean well and still screw up, he has the capacity to forgive because he knows that unlike him you are flawed.

Once you remove humans from using God as justification for doing horrible things, what is it that God asks for that is unreasonable? Even most atheists already act in reasonably moral ways do to a conscience that comes from within. Unless you are a socio/psychopath.

Those atheists that are generally good people, is their problem with God, or is it with man made churches?

There is a battle between good and evil in the heart of every human. Ignoring that battle, and rationalizing away a judgment day, doesn't mean there isn't one. There either is or there isn't. If there is one, it is going to suck if a person placed their bet the other way. If there isn't a judgment day, it won't hurt me any that I thought peace and love was the philosophy I should follow.

If good and evil are real things, then those things have a source, even if I don't fully comprehend those sources. I choose to blindly follow the source of goodness, no matter what it is, and despite my lack of comprehension. A force more powerful than I created this existence, that is God.




The equation:

If, by definition, God = omnipotence + omniscience + omnipresence,
if being all-knowing and all-present means He can't be unwise, or ignorant
if being all-powerful means He can't be fearful, weak, or envious,
if only the weak, fearful, envious, unwise, or ignorant can be angry, frustrated, or hate-filled,
God is love, not capable of threats of force or violence.

I believe there's no way God is less loving than my own Dad (a pretty high bar to start with), and though my Dad was authoritarian when I was a toddler, he treats me today like the adult I am. No way is my God an authoritarian, substituting threats for respect.

That's my view, based on my experience, but you'll find that each person's view of God is totally dependent on their own ideas, and no two will have exactly the same view.

What do you think?

SteveMT's picture

I agree with you.

If God is 100% good, then He must be 0% bad.
If God is 100% merciful, then He must be 0% unmerciful.
If God is 100% logical, then He must be 0% illogical.
If God is 100% consistent, then He must be 0% inconsistent.
If God is 100% truth, then He must be 0% untruth.

My personal beliefs are that God is all of these things.

So, what do you when you read something that conflicts with these tenets other than to discard such writings as blasphemy?

If these five tenets above are not true, then we are on the slippery-slope belief system. Gd is sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes merciful, and sometimes unmerciful, and so on. Would it make sense to worship a God like that? If He was to judge you on one of His illogical days, it would not matter how good you were. You would go to hell just because God happened to feel like doing something illogical or bad on that day.

If God gives mercy to one and

If God gives mercy to one and not another, that is God making a subjective judgment. If you can't trust him to be make judgments of the grey areas, then who can you trust?

SteveMT's picture

I trust explanations that make sense.

By saying "that is God making a subjective judgement," you will be able to justify anything that the Almighty is claimed to have done. You give God free reign to do whatever He wants to, and you will justify that as God's Will as long as it is prefaced by "thus saith the Lord.".

How do you tell the difference between a bunch of madmen cutting the throats of anyone they wish saying that they doing the will of God? Slay Sodom & Gomorrah, make a flood that wipes-out the earth, slay entire civilizations leaving "not a soul to breath," sparing 32,000 virgins for the Hebrews to have a go at, allowing the debaucher Solomon to write the Bible, sparring Peter who denied knowing Christ three times, but slaying both Ananias and Sephira post-redemption of the crucifixion are some of the things that by your thinking you would attribute to permitted "subjective judgements."

If a bunch of madmen were roaming around during Old Testament times using the name of God like this, would you be a glade participate in the slaughter and debauching without questioning any further who really gave these orders?

"How do you tell the

"How do you tell the difference between a bunch of madmen cutting the throats of anyone they wish saying that they doing the will of God?"

I have an internal sense of empathy that would make me not like madmen cutting throats in conquest. I am not going to say "sure they are cutting throats, but damn they know their biblical scriptures!".

For me there are 3 types of people in this world. Those that submit to God's true message, those that believe the devil's sales pitch about becoming their own God, and those that are in denial that they need to pick a side.

revelation 3:16
King James Bible
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

God's message is love and peace, very similar to the Daily Paul, but minus the gold obsession.

I don't know if this makes any sense,

but it is my immediate reaction to hearing the suggestion that implies God is subjective as such.

Well, that may very well be the case,

but if that is so, then we as humans no longer have the need for use of the term "obejective" and therefore neither do we have a need for the term "subjective". The ultimate result would include all religions and notions of God to quickly spiral into pure paradigms of fear, as fear would eventually eradicate all other notions we use toward moral pursuit and self-improvement. We would simply see God as our Führer.


SteveMT's picture

Are people the brutal authoritarians? Don't blame God.

George Carlin's thoughts about brutality and the sanctity of life

I wish some would realize that their aggressive close mindedness

actually drives people away from the message of liberty.

We should be using language of acceptance and love. Not of hate and misunderstanding.

Ron Paul - Intellectual hero

Circles aren't arguments.

First of all before we begin this discussion please introduce me to the amorphous, invisible cloud something you refer to as being a god. Failing that then at least direct me to its twitter account or facebook page. When you can establish its existence then we will have a conversation.

Until then I will treat the subject with the disdain that it so richly deserves.

It only takes one to KEEP AMERICANS FREE. Know your duties & rights as a juror. Stop the unconstitutional conviction of innocents in federal custody. The Fully Informed Jury CALL 1-800-TEL-JURY IMMEDIATELY if not sooner. It's that important.

I am 100% certain that no

I am 100% certain that no life, not even microscopic life, exists outside of this planet Earth. I cannot be asked to prove a negative, you would have to prove the positive that microscopic life exists.

So unless you can introduce me to microscopic alien life or its twitter account, I am right. I don't want to hear any arguments about how mathematically it would be pretty stupid to think nothing is growing on billions of planets. It doesn't matter, if you have faith in microscopic life. No proof of microscopic life is absolute proof that it does not exist.

How silly did this argument sound? I hear it over and over again from atheists, regarding a God.

Maybe there is an

answer but it is beyond our ability to conceive it. Maybe, the universe is constructed in a manner that what is considered hell is a realm of negative energy or dimension that is very unpleasant. Maybe, our choices good or bad, positive or negative like a magnet draws us to a particular place.

I discount nothing and know that I am ignorant of ways of the Creator.

My instincts tell me there is something.

Good luck in your quest for knowledge.

"We can see with our eyes, hear with our ears and feel with our touch, but we understand with our hearts."

Why would anyone

Worship or follow an extremely jealous god who's religion states that the only unforgivable sin is not believing in him? The god in the christian bible never existed. Your question makes for good debate, but I choose not to pretend it's real.

Fire is the least of your worries in hell.

When you read this keep in mind that water represent the Holy Spirit. Fire is something that consumes. So a flame would be that which causes the consumption or "that which takes away/consumes".

Luke 16:19-31

"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham , have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him,'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham ; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him,'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

Every man will die but spirits are eternal. So every spirit will have eternal life. It's just a matter of where will your spirit spend eternity. Heaven will have the Spirit of God in it and hell will not. In heaven there will be light and in hell there will be darkness. So it's pretty much every person gets what they love. If you love this earth you will spend an eternity in a place just like it in your old resurrected body. You will be able to feel all the things you felt on this earth but you will not be able to die. Death will not be an easy out for anyone. If you truly love this earth this should make you happy and to you it should be heaven. If you do not love this earth and you wish for something better God has made a way for you to go to another place where you will also live for eternity. This place will have the Spirit of God there to help you and guide you and take away all the suffering of the world that was. He will make a new earth and you will receive new heavenly bodies. They will not get sick and they will not get old. There will be no more war. All those things that consumed man on earth will not be present in this new earth. All you have to do to go to this new earth is "listen, hear my voice, and obey me, I will be your God and you will be my people". That is what God told Moses in the wilderness before the law was handed down. They complained and said, we will starve in this desert. So, God provided them with manna from heaven (like a bird flying down to eat a worm) all they had to do was gather it up. But they complained again and said, let us go back to Egypt at least there we had meat to eat. Then God cause the winds to bring quail in so numerous they gathered them off the ground because there were so many. They gathered enough to eat quail for a month. They eat quail until they were sickened of it. They complained about dieing of thirst and he provided water from a rock. No matter what God did they complained. They started acting corruptly with one another and disobeying God. They did not wish to listen, hear, or obey. So the law came down from God. This goes on and on to the point the children of Israel are dispersed throughout all the other nations and lost their promise land. The new testament is still about listening, hearing, and obeying. He redefines the 10 commandment into two simple commands and he gave them a plan of salvation that he describes as keys. He puts them in the hand of Peter and peter freely gives the keys out to everyone who wishes to take them on the day of Pentecost. He give two promises one promise for those who love this earth and do not take the keys and one for those who do not love this earth and take the keys. Just like in the old testament those who take the keys will be called native born and those who do not take the keys will be called strangers.

I knew at 12 years old what my choice was and I reached for the keys. I have made my choice and I am good with it. When I get to my home I will not care what choice anyone else has made. Today I do care and I wish you would not be a stranger. That is the only goal I have on this earth is getting those keys into as many hands as I can so we can all be the native born of Heaven. I wish to tell you what someone you might know or love would send me back to say. DO NOT COME HERE!!!!!!

I wish to point you to the keys of heaven.

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

That is the end of my commission from God. It's in your hands now.

If you love this earth then "Do what thou wilt" should be the whole of your law. Just remember that will be everyone elses only law as well when you get home. That includes every tyrannt that ever lived. They will be a consuming fire and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There will not have to be any real fire involved. God will not torment you. Your own decisions will.

That's cute, True Believer.

That's cute, True Believer. Sadly you're wrong.

You see, I joined the Jewmormishtan Witness church when I was only 3. Even then I knew the one TRUE way. In the Holy Bottle, we have read the word, and saw that it was good.

I know that I have a mansion prepared for me and that all others will be set as a torch unto eternal flame and fear and weep bitter tears which are gasoline so that they verily add to the burning the more thy weepeth, and they will weepeth more and more for thy burning.

So... pretty much sucks to be you True Believer. Don't get me wrong, I feel a great well of sorrow in my bosom for you, but alas, your heart is dark and filled with evil because YOU choose to refuse the ONE TRUE way.

So really, you'll be lighting yourself on fire, and choosing to burn forever, its your fault. We tried to save you, but in your hate filled evil reeking soul, you hated what was true and good and fornicated with your vile serpant god jebus.

Enjoy hell bitches, im going to be sucking down a cold one in bliss.

Do what thou wilt.

do what thou wilt.

So much hate in your words...

So much hate in your words... so much vitriole. Im saddented by your anger-filled response. All I want is to save you from your own demonic evil brother! If only you were not blind to the truth and could see what I know. I can 100% guarantee you that you're going to be screaming in angony and getting DVDA'd by a pack of maurading T'annari within 5 minutes of dying. Considering you don't even have a V (yet) its really going to hurt! I don't want that for you since my heart is so filled with love! Please, im praying into my pillow for your right now! Can you feel the magical power compelling you to submit and lick the ground at the Overlord's feet!? There! I have just prayed a training manual into existance on your nightstand beside your bed. It'll help you convert; trouble is, currently its invisable to you because you are too wicked and evil in your blind hate of the TRUE overlord of the universe.

I can save you from your sad, pointless existance. I know you hate the world and all the light, and your kids have no meaning for you, and you don't know right from wrong and that you are personally responsable for everything that's wrong with the world because you refuse to see the truth and let the supreme Overlord of Jewmormishtan Witness use you for a coffee table in his golden palace of eternal bliss for some. But its not too late to become Lawful Good! You too can enjoy paradise while 99.99% of everyone you ever knew is sent spiraling into the Abyss for a few quadtrillion years of rape, beatings, and torture by fire. Get with team Good True-Believer... give up your godless ways!