5 votes

What If God Is A Brutal Authoritarian?

If you don't pay your taxes you'll go to jail.

If you don't believe in God you'll go to hell.

But of course, each is "voluntary" and you have the "free will" to object?

HMMMM...

If force against peaceful individuals is wrong, then why would God do it to those who peacefully reject him? Just something I've been increasingly thinking about.

The reason we object to the income tax is because it's backed up by force, therefore there's no "free will" or freedom to choose otherwise without the potential for serious repercussions. Thus it's not a choice and is a tyrannical act of force against peaceful individuals and WRONG. We see the reality of the income tax - it's the act of a brute or tyrant, not the act of a peaceful or benevolent person.

Well, when it comes to this belief in a hell - I see the same glaring contradiction, only this one is much bigger.

You have free will to choose to believe in God, but if you don't then you'll be burnt in perpetual agony in a place with no doors and no time. If God cannot even grant his own creation liberty, what makes us think it comes "from God"? And if it does, then why hold the threat of hell over our heads when doing so is basically a shakedown by an intellectually weak or dishonest authoritarian?

This question is posed for those who actually believe there is a physical hell and that God will send us there should we CHOOSE not to believe in him, and that it's a perpetual punishment/pain. If there are any on here... lol




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From the man for whom this site was started....

This person, for whom this site is named after, has advocated all his life while living it, teaches the idea of freedom also recognizes the source of it. It isn't from a tyrant that such freedoms are root in. It is out of love, 1 John 4:7-19. Note verses 18, 19 that fear is not part of this love of God.

“There is only one kind of freedom and that’s individual liberty. Our lives come from our creator and our liberty comes from our creator. It has nothing to do with government granting it.” -Ron Paul

It is only through this individual self governance called Christianity that a nation of ideas of freedom came into existence. Only by this self governance will it continue to thrive or even continue to exist. Deny this need of self governance we become no longer that light upon the mountain to other nations, we become divided and are divided terribly today. As a nation divided we shall fail to agree to protect liberty and eventually fall.

Have a blessed day.

The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
And those who have not heard shall understand.

What if only

What is only rational, thinking, intelligent educated people voted?

What if people made their life decisions based upon evidence, facts and truth and not upon "beliefs" stories, and BS?

What if people held their own religious beliefs to the same standards they use to judge and reject other religions?

The answer to all of the above is that the world would be a much better place to live.

"What if only rational,

"What if only rational, thinking, intelligent educated people voted?"

What if's are fine, I suppose, but it seems a short step from merely dreaming, to trying to make the 'what if' a reality. And when that happens, at least with this particular 'what if', we have bought ourselves all kinds of problems. Principle among them is the grand question, "Who decides who is or isn't rational, intelligent and educated?"

"What if people made their life decisions based upon evidence, facts and truth and not upon "beliefs" stories, and BS?"

There's a nice loaded question. Most people would say they do make their 'life decisions' in this manner. Of course everything you list packs its own load of unchecked baggage. And if one is to analyze evidence, discover facts or understand truth, one is going to have to start somewhere. You have to start somewhere if you are going to get anywhere. And precisely where everyone starts, including you, is with some sort of unprovable assumptions. It really can't be helped. Another word we might use for such assumptions is "beliefs".

"What if people held their own religious beliefs to the same standards they use to judge and reject other religions?"

I might add the idea of all beliefs and assumptions held to the same criteria, whether you would label them as religious or not. All such basic assumptions (or presuppositions) are not testable in the same manner as counting electrons or measuring flour. They are ultimately a means (or grounds) for proof, and not something that can be proven. This goes for everyone, including you.

"The answer to all of the above is that the world would be a much better place to live."

Given the nature of this and other posts, I'd predict what you would really like to have is a world full of yous. How nice.

Then people who believe in free markets wouldn't vote

if people went by your apparent, subjective definition of rational, thinking, intelligent and educated.

Just because someone disagrees wih your or my theology doesn't mean they are non of the above.

What if the original message

What if the original message of the Bible is lost on the overwhelming majority because they are reading a translation of a translation of a translation...and the translator was a traitor??? What if this majority never even bothers to research the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek text that are the most recent and least translated versions to be had???

What if the Bible is a book for..."the government of the people, for the people and by the people"?
(John Wycliffe Bible, first English translation 1382)

What if this book about Kingdoms and kings, men called "saviour", who save men from tyrannical Kingdoms, Men in high places who call themselves "father of the People", and the Father in the highest...Sons of God vs sons of Rome(and other kingdoms), what if men know that since the beginning until the end (eternally) men are either free or they are bound...WHAT IF THIS WHOLE FRICKING BOOK IS ABOUT BEING EITHER GOVERNED BY MEN OR BEING FREE FROM MEN???

What if those who "believe" are freemen because their "Father" does not suppress them, but those who have Rome as their father are bound by contracts, by OATHS, by their OWN CHOICE. And it is not GOD who suppresses them in that hell, but the one that they have freely chosen as tyrant is the one suppressing them?

But what if the Kings of the Earth had much power to lose from this book? What if these kings set out to turn this book into something it was not, through translation, until it was nothing more than the emptiness of all the other pagan religions used by previous kings to legitimize their power to rule, to suppress freedom?

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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

wrong premise

The Bible is not a translation of a translation of a translation. One of many misconceptions, so the rest of your question is irrelevant.

The Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. Jesus called it truth. Believe him.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

If you bother to look up

If you bother to look up "word of God" in the Bible you will find in the Old Testament that the Hebrew text was "Peh" which means "mouth", or "Dabar" which means "speech, word, speaking".

The "Word of God" is spoken, not written. There are other words used for writings, the word most used in all places that mention the "Word of God" is a spoken word. The 10 commandments were written word.

And what did Jesus say? "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God..." Hebrew 8

We can find many times where Jesus is talking with the Pharisees using the phrase "your law" which refers to the Scriptures, but he does not use the term "My Father's Law" in reference to the Scripture. It IS Men's Law, the Scripture, that he is referring to when he says "your law".

The original covenant had a fault with it. We see throughout the old testament the Word of God is SPOKEN, not written. But the Judaean's had come to put all down in scripture, written, so much to the point that they could no longer hear the Word of God, they were too busy in their Book to hear. Same is true of many today....

The first Covenant was with fault, it was put down on paper. The New Covenant was not to be so, it was to be in the Heart and in the Mind, just as the Word of God.

"The Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God." This is a statement of indoctrination given by Men of power to deliver into their deception.

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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

GoodSamaritan's picture

Your claim is easily refuted

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

"The Lord said to Moses, 'Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.'" Exodus 24:12

"And he [Jesus] rolled up the scroll [of Isaiah] and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, 'Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.'" Luke 4:20-21

There are countless such proofs from both Old and New Testaments that the Scriptures are the Word of God.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

One of my favorites

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

But to TxRedneck's point, let's also look at Jeremiah 8.

"How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of YHUH is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of YHUH; and what wisdom is in them?"

.

Hear, O Israel: YHUH our God YHUH one. And thou shalt love YHUH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Tons

Tons of verses on the subject.

Here's a great article on the subject, although there are tons more articles on the subject, too.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2004/07/17/the-sure...

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

I believe that Calvinism explains the Bible much better

than anything modern theologians can whip up.

Calvinism teaches predestination because the Bible is loaded with verses that make it perfectly clear that God elects whomever He wants to salvation.

You don't really have a choice in that scheme.

Since I have moved away from Calvinism, all preaching from my Christian friends has fallen on deaf ears. I'm convinced they don't understand the Bible, but they think they do. They think they have something to teach me, or else I'm damned. Well...I have rejected parts of the Bible (the parts about hell, mainly) and they have rejected parts of the Bible...so as far as I'm concerned, we're equal.

The truth is

somewhere between calvanism and arminianism. God knows who will be saved but he does not predestine people to go to hell necessarily (even though of course He knows who will). Christ died for all even those that do not accept Him. They only get the free gift of salvation when they come to Him. Until then it is waiting for them. That's what I believe because the Bible says God is not willing that ANY should perish.

I don't beleive a full belief in the 5 points of calvanism is correct. Or, vice versa arminianism because thats based on works salvation.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Calvinism is hooey

Calvinism is baloney. Read some of Dave Hunt's books on the subject if you want some truth about it.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

SteveMT's picture

I liked what you had to say about this.

I've rejected the parts of the Bible about God repeatedly killing children, babies, pregnant women, men, and animals as well as God permitting parts of the Bible to be written by whore-mongers. God would also not order that virgins be kept alive to be debauched at a later time. I do not believe that the God of the universe had anything to do with this savagery.

God is a fictional allmighty authoritarian invented by man.

I answer only to God, not kings (who based their power on God) or any pseudo order.

God is the only authority, if he or she or whatever shows up telling me what to do I will comply, till then, I will call my own shots.

That's the message Jesus was trying to pass on in my opinion..

my2cents

www.youtube.com/truefictions

I try to change people every day. Do You?

But Jesus

But Jesus Christ is a fictional character also, just like Sponge Bob and the Tooth Fairy.

"What would Sponge Bob do?" (WWSBD)

Really like your attitude.

You make me smile. Better this belief than church indoctrination. Be open to Angel communication, friends of God. ;) You make Angels smile too.

That can be dangerous.

The devil has angels too.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

And the devil and his angels don't show up with tails and pitchforks when they show themselves to people either.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

That's why John gave us a litmus test whereby to see if a spirit is actually of God or not.
1 John 4:1-3a
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

Indeed, test every spirit and angel.

Those that are from God are LOVE, and no dark entity can fake the light of LOVE. Jesus was light in the world, and there was no mistaking that light.

If you believe in God it means God

created all of this, including human beings. If you make something, you OWN that something. You are in charge of that something. If there is a God and I believe there is, He's in charge and He makes the rules.

If there is a God, He is all-knowing, all-holy, all-powerful, and all-just. Human beings are wicked, vile, sinful creatures and no all-holy God would let vile, wicked, sinful creatures into his holy heaven because the second that vile, wicked, sinful human being set foot in heaven, heaven would no longer be heaven. It in turn would be corrupted by the presence of that vile, wicked, sinful human being.

The only way there can be communion between our all-holy, all-powerful, all-just Creator and wicked, vile, sinful human beings is if wicked, vile, sinful human beings are made holy in God's sight. That's why Jesus came to earth. God judged, condemned, and punished Jesus for your wickedness and my wickedness so, we could be holy in God's sight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always heard there's a "holy trinity" consisting of father, son and holy spirit. These are all supposed to be God -- it's a three-in-one sort of deal, right?

If the above idea is correct, then God sacrificed himself. Which is fine, I suppose, for a Supreme Being who could have made us all "holy in his sight" in any manner he chose. So why did he choose the bloody sacrifice? For that matter, why is the Bible filled with all manner of bloody sacrifices?

As to the concept of heaven, where presumably all are happy and healthy forever, how would it be possible for me to be filled with joy while at the same time knowing that other human beings were being tortured and burned alive forever?

Response

The thing is we all deserve hell because of our sin.
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

Jesus said in John 3 that he who doesn't believe in the only begotten Son of God is condemned already. It's because human beings are under the condemnation of God because of their sins that Jesus came and died. It's not like God said, I'm going to send my Son to earth to live as a man and suffer and if you people don't believe in Him, I'm going to send you all to hell. People were already under the condemnation of God. God condemned Jesus for man's sin out of His love for mankind in order to offer man a way of escape from the condemnation he deserves.

To all you Santa believers...

Focus on this message and not the messenger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RmQNs8fjQ8

GoodSamaritan's picture

God refers to Himself in the Plural

throughout the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'"

God did sacrifice Himself, as represented by God the Son - Jesus. The reason is straightforward - only a sinless human could pay for the sins committed by other humans. A sinful human can only pay for his/her own sins.

As for the blood requirement, Hebrews 9:22 says, "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." This goes back to the OT laws (see Leviticus) that required animal blood be shed to cover sin. The animal sacrifices were a kind of placeholder until a Perfect sacrifice (the Messiah, Jesus) could make the final atonement (payment) for sins through the shedding of His own blood.

To your question on joy in Heaven while others are in Hell (and, BTW, immortal, indestructible bodies cannot be burned), the best answer I have is that those in Heaven will be perfect in every way and therefore in total agreement with God's justice. "He [God] will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." Revelation 21:4

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

Have to agree with what you said here, in part..

No one gets into the next higher dimension, we think of as Heaven, until they SEEK God and re-establish their connection to God-Consciousness while they are here on Earth. Jesus established his conscious connection to God because that is what he came here to do and he was seeking God. He tried to show us an example of what to do while we are here. SEEK GOD!

No one is allowed into the next grade or higher level until they pass the test here, and the test is "can you reconnect with God consciousness while you are on earth"? God does not think we are wicked or vile! We and God chose this test as an experience. There are many other planets and universes and experiences we can choose. (in my Father's house are many mansions John14:2)

No matter how horrendous our confused behavior, God forgives and keeps giving us chances in all the lifetimes we need to evolve and come back to God! You are right; you don't get to go UP a level until you are READY, like in grade school. You are not vile and wicked. That is church talk to control you.

...

Jesus was not seeking God. He was God come down to Earth as a man.

http://mobile.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&versio...

Abraham was born more than two thousand years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem, yet, Jesus told the Jews that He existed before Abraham.

John 8:57-59
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I think we are all God in human form.

Some like Jesus are more advanced and more highly evolved spiritually than most of us here. He was and is a MASTER who came here to help us because humans have been lost and stuck so long at the same stage and can't seem to find their way back to a higher state of being. Jesus came to help and he helps even now from a higher place. He helps all that call to him. Angels help too.

Mormon?

?

No, not Mormon, just someone who felt called to study

scriptures and seek truth about God since my childhood. Most scriptures offer only partial truths that can easily be taken out of context to suit any argument.

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mathew 6:6

Seek your truth from God, and not only from the words spoken or written by men.

This is a delusion

.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul