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What If God Is A Brutal Authoritarian?

If you don't pay your taxes you'll go to jail.

If you don't believe in God you'll go to hell.

But of course, each is "voluntary" and you have the "free will" to object?


If force against peaceful individuals is wrong, then why would God do it to those who peacefully reject him? Just something I've been increasingly thinking about.

The reason we object to the income tax is because it's backed up by force, therefore there's no "free will" or freedom to choose otherwise without the potential for serious repercussions. Thus it's not a choice and is a tyrannical act of force against peaceful individuals and WRONG. We see the reality of the income tax - it's the act of a brute or tyrant, not the act of a peaceful or benevolent person.

Well, when it comes to this belief in a hell - I see the same glaring contradiction, only this one is much bigger.

You have free will to choose to believe in God, but if you don't then you'll be burnt in perpetual agony in a place with no doors and no time. If God cannot even grant his own creation liberty, what makes us think it comes "from God"? And if it does, then why hold the threat of hell over our heads when doing so is basically a shakedown by an intellectually weak or dishonest authoritarian?

This question is posed for those who actually believe there is a physical hell and that God will send us there should we CHOOSE not to believe in him, and that it's a perpetual punishment/pain. If there are any on here... lol

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What if God were Loving and Good?

Here's my real question.

If fatlibertarian (the author of the Op) were really a libertarian and really atheist, then he believes God does not exist, right?

If God does not exist for fatlibertarian, then "God" in concept, according to the athiest could EQUALLY be Loving and Benevolent, just as much as he could be a "Brutal Authoritarian".

In other words, in the atheists mind, there would be an EQUAL PROBABILITY of a loving, benevolent god as there would be a brutal dictator, since to an atheist, the chance of each is ZERO.

So, if there's an equal probability of God being loving and benevolent,then why did fat libertarian choose to post this highly divisive Op and ask if God is otherwise?

THAT's the real question here. What are fatlibertarian's REAL motivations.

If God were loving and good,

If God were loving and good, then there wouldn't be a hell.

You have reading for comprehension issues.

Either you have a problem processing basic language skills or maybe English is a second language for you and I need to write it in your native language.

Reread. If you believe God does NOT exist, then there is logically NO POSSIBILITY of him being more brutal authoritarian than loving and benevolent, because TO YOU, the probability of both is ZERO.

So, how could you possibly draw such a conclusion unless you are just spouting illogical nonsense.

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about? I feel im in dangerous territory of argueing with idiots who will drag you down to their level and beat you with experiance.

Why would anyone think something that doesn't exist is evil or good in reality? We are talking about the "idea" or "myth" of god. Is this not established that our side is arguing from a hypothetical position? We we simply playing word games now, or have you just cracked?

Do you need to add "hypothetical" to your dictionary reading list?

The creation exists, God does not exist.

Atheists believe God exists as a concept from the mind of men, they do not believe God is real.
The elect of God know that God Is real and that He does not exist.
To exist means "to comes out of a foundation", or something. For God to come out of something would mean that God was produced by something. It is illogical to believe that God is the source of all things and claim that God exists.
What atheists believe is that all natural things are, were and always will be, the sum of which is the source of itself having no beginning or end, or in other words a non existing being, capable of producing the concept of God.
Evidence of this is found in the scientific community when many atheists believed the universe was static. Out of the religious community came a physicist wanting to disprove the static theory and propose that the universe was in expansion with the concept of the cosmic egg theory which today is know as the big bang theory.

Can you read English?

I was not arguing whether God existed or not.

I pointed out to an ATHEIST, who BY DEFINITION, does not believe in God, then logically, there would be an EQUAL PROBABILITY (i.e. ZERO) of God being EITHER Loving and Benevolant OR a "Brutal Authoritarian". For an atheist, it is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for God to be more one than the other.

Yet, the atheist, fatlibertarian, chose to make a divisive post about "What if God were a Brutal Authoritarian?"

My question is WHY would he choose to do that, because to him, logically, God MUST have a PRECISELY EQUAL CHANCE of being loving and benevolent.

But he chose to post something divisive ON PURPOSE. The question is WHY?

I don't know if he can read

I don't know if he can read english, but ill bet he can define collectivism better than "some."

That's a misconception

That does not mean God does not exist. Look at it this way: we as Libertarians believe in good and evil/freedom vs tyranny for example. So to posit that good and evil exist their MUST be moral law. And, if there is more law, which their must be since we know there is good and evil, morality dwells in each of us. We are all born with a sense of moral obligation. So, since we know there is moral law there MUST be a moral law giver that is NOT one of us humans since we are all inherently born with a sense of moral law. You say there is creation, yet deny a creator. That's like having a 'form' of godliness but denying that power.

2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

God exists outside of space, time and matter. We cannot see or understand Him so in a sense it's like He does not exist to us, but yet He does. It's like a 2D drawing trying to perceive us 3D creatures with it's own 2D eyes. We put a finger in it's world and it can only see a simple flat shape.

If we fully understood God He would not be God. The thing you are missing in proving God's existence is faith. God is clearly seen in nature, but not from an atheist perspective which cannot perceive God.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Your argument falls apart

Your argument falls apart because you think you have free will.

13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he shall hate the one, and love the other, or else he shall lean to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and riches. - Luke 16

Missing piece of the Liberty Puzzle.

As a Ron Paul die hard and Constitution lover of liberty I've discovered something lacking in the liberty movement. Freedom and Liberty are not the same thing. Liberty can only come as we adopt laws that align with the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God.

As John Adam Stated "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." The famous French Historian Alex de Tocqueville noted,“The Americans combine the notions of religion and liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive of one without the other”. He also stated, “America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”

Folks, America is no longer great because America is no longer good. Liberty is fading because Religion and Morality are fading. Lately I've been under attack by "liberty" people because I use my religion as the bases of why I believe in the Laws I do.

Religion is under attack in American and it's under attack in the Liberty movement. The first Protection in the First Amendment to the Constitution protects freedom of Religion. Any Law or Right you support comes from some moral system you have. For me my morality comes from a study of the Laws of Nature and Science, the Bible and the revealed word of God to men (to me they are the same Laws). If you think deeply about the Laws you support you will find that they too come from a religious belief or a law of science or nature. If you don't believe there are natural Laws then you believe that Rights and Laws come from the Government. This is a very dangerous thing to believe as Government can give and take 'laws' and 'rights' as they please. But as assuredly as the rising sun and the pull of gravity the laws that don't align with Natural Laws will bring disaster to those who follow them. The founders knew this and that is why they established the Constitution and left the States to discover and implement more of the Laws of Nature for themselves.

At the signing of the Constitution 7 of the 13 States had State religions. Religious minds established most of the great Ivy League schools we revere today, Harvard by the Puritans, Yale by Congregationalist ministers, Princeton founded by Presbyterians, University of Pennsylvania by the Church of England and Methodists, Columbia by the Church of England, Brown University by The Baptists, Dartmouth College by the Calvinist.

The integration of religious notions and morality in the City, County and State Law is what made America great and Liberty abound. Being free to do whatever you want is not Liberty. It can be the destruction of freedom and Liberty. The greatness and simplicity of great Laws like love your neighbor as yourself,thou shalt not kill, steal or covet are not meant to enslave you. Those Laws when followed create an environment where you are free to discover great things, ennobling things that bring life and light to a people. Secular laws should align with the Laws of Nature and of Natures God. Choosing to have laws that don't align with them produces what we have today in our country.

Liberty lovers, we need to get back to the faith of our Fathers if we are to save our liberties. I wish I had more time to write with more depth and history here but I hope you would study why you believe you have the Rights that you have. Where do those beliefs come from? How do you know they are true? If your beliefs come from a religious source are you skipping some important Laws because you don't think they are important? Something to think about.

Thank you, Awakening Day

Whether or not I agree that it is altogether missing within the liberty movement, I agree with you as to what is important for it to thrive. But in general, I think the traditional concept of "family" is a crucial component. Both in terms of the nuclear family and also extended family, it's practically gone, and there's no turning back. Single-parenting, divorce, or two parents both with outside careers have become a part of the cultural status quo. Now it's common for children to be raised by/derive their values from left-leaning public schools during school hours; and, after school, leftist Hollywood tv shows & movies, along with amoral designers of computer games. Now also its common for older people - whom some cultures almost revere for their work and their wisdom - to move from family to warmer climes or, without family, into nursing homes. Add to that (if for good reason imo) the decline of "the church." Unless there is a renewal of appreciation for family, along with some kind of spiritual renewal, I can't see us heading towards anything but a socialist state.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir


is best described as eternal separation from God. Anyone who truly understands liberty - that with liberty and freedom come responsibility - must eventually come to realize that God also gives us liberty to choose. The choice IS ours - eternal life with Him, or eternal separation from Him. This is not mean, it's not tyrannical; it's simply a reflection of who God is. He is holy. And as such, He cannot be in the presence of sin or He would violate Himself. However, because He loves us so much He paid the price for redeeming us from our sin so that we could enjoy fellowship with Him again. He didn't leave us without hope. He Himself came to earth as a child. He "put on humanity" and lived among His creation - lived for the sole purpose of dying on your behalf and mine. Now, each and every individual has the choice (freedom) to accept or reject that gift. Each choice has its consequence. However, God let His heart about this be known when it says in 2 Peter 3:9, "(God)...not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. - Patrick Henry

Liberty is God?

Is Liberty God? I cannot limit God so finely, Is Liberty Godly ? well not by the definition in google,
There is no god but God, and god is all, every blade of grass every star in the sky is but a piece of the divine as yes you and and I made up of stardust are but a pale refecltion of our creator.
So while Liberty is not God it is a gift from our creator and like Gods greatest gift Reason it is a god given gift and no man or goverment may rightfully deprive an innocent man of any of gods gifts.

Tasers are Torture, Deism.com

Liberty is GOD

Once more I stand before the most righteous with but a simple statement
There is no GOD but LIBERTY.

I have spent the past 25 years absorbing the misinformation and disinformation that is called religion. Then thru the prism of LIBERTY I ask the the question that should not be asked.

My conclusion - All religion is a FARCE

LIBERTY answers all questions. You may not like the answer you get yet it is the truth.

Ask yourself ANY question about anything in this plane of conciseness and IF you answer it with LIBERTY you will have the answer that is right by all concerned.

I say with all the fervor I can muster PLEASE do not burden me with the yolk of your religious beliefs. Leave them far from me and LIBERTY for we do not agree with you.

As I will not assail you with my belief system I ask you to RESPECT LIBERTY and not assail me with yours.

I think therefor I am Sovereign Forever

Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate.
Don't Give me Liberty, I'll get up and get it myself!

If you think anyone is gonna

If you think anyone is gonna take the effort to just sit there and watch 9 youtube videos without any explanation from you of what they are, you are sadly mistaken.

They all look like songs I think

But I did look up the verse:

John 4:19
The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.

Guess he's calling the OP a prophet? lol

Edit: they are all the same video

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Not the verse

That's not what 1 John 4:19 says. It says: "We love, because He first loved us."

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul


my bad did John not 1 John. ty for that.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Here Come the Silly Objectors ...

Since some of the more strident objectors insist they'll NEVER follow an alleged tyrant like God who'll ALLOW themselves to be sent to the Lake of Fire, have those wandering souls ever considered they follow this alleged tyrant with every breath or word that's typed? LoL ... This thread is basically silliness. By our very existence, humans MUST follow God and His laws or they'll perish physically. How many strident objectors to God have rejected God's rules and implemented their own set of rules governing their physical existence? Fortunately for the wandering souls, the fairytale of macro evolution takes a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time to manifest changes in the environment or they'd be doomed SOONER rather than later. ;) God is no more authoritarian than any normal, human father. The father sets rules. The father cares for his child as best he can. If the child disobeys and runs in front of a car due to rejecting the command of his father, the child pays the price. The Lake of Fire is just a final destiny for the soul of a rebellious human like the grave is a final destiny for the body of a human.

...but can they change their spots? Maybe, direct genetic manipulation will help them to overcome their limitations sooner rather than waiting on the sands of time? Ooooooooh boy, welcome to the brave old world of "myths" and legends when humanity attempts to "overcome". LoL

I do not choose to go to

God is like a father? Id hate to be your children. I am a father too, and though I set the rules, I sure as hell don't light my children on fire until the end of time when they break them. Torture is imorale, no matter how powerful the torturer is. Just because your god can cast 9th level spells doesn't mean he can violate people's rights without earning enough points to become chaotic evil.

I do not choose to go to Hell. Nor do I choose to worship someone ive never met, and don't believe exists.

If I go to hell, it will be because I was dragged there by force against my will. There is no way I voluntarily submit to being tortured. Tell yourself whatever you have too to let you sleep at night. In the end, you are party to the torture of trillions by your compliance... even if only in your mind.

Collectivism has no place in free society. Your religeon is dying.

Misleading argument.

Truth is;

If you don't pay your taxes you go to jail.

If you follow Satan you go to hell.

Each action is "voluntary" and you have the "free will" to object.


Do me a favor and go look up

Do me a favor and go look up "coersion" in a dictionary.

This is why no one takes you people seriously any more, and laugh at your religeon. You have nothing to stand on. YOu can't even make a simple declairation like the one above without being absolutly and proovably incorrect. When the threat of force lingers over a person pertaining to a course of action to compel a choice, it is NOT voluntary. This is legally established FACT that is used to argue cases in court every day. Why can you not understand this!?

Taxes are NOT voluntary because you are not given a "reasonable" choice to avoid them without force being used upon you. You are compelled to comply by a direct threat of harm over your head.

Worshiping god is NOT voluntary because you are not given a "reasonable" choice to avoid submission without force being used upon you. You are compelled to comply by a direct threat of harm over your head.

I do NOT choose to go to hell. I want no part of it, but neither will I worship someone I don't even believe exists. IF he wants me in hell, god must either put me there himself, or use his goons to drag me there against my will. This is NOT free will. This is NOT voluntary. This is coersion.

The reason this fact cannot breach your skulls is because if it did, it would force you to question your dogma and reveal the utter ridiculousness of the contradiction between your faith, and your political beliefs. God is force. Libertarianism is free choice.

Does it not set off some kind of subconcious alarm bells in your mind that in your brain... you call a person holding a gun to your head and demanding "Obey me or I shoot you." to be coersion, but in the SAME brain at the SAME time, consider a person saying "Worship me or... sadly, you have to burn forever" as free choice?

Something is not right in a brain that can hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time.

To shine a bit more light on the maddness of this religeon... free will cannot exist when the future is predetermined. The bible says that God sees all things, past, present and future. That means he knows if you will burn or not. It is predetermined. How can you have free will when your fate is already set? How can you NOT see this? Its is indisputable logical reality.

Edit: Again im not talking to christians who don't believe in a torturous hell. If hell doesn't exist, then there "IS" a reasonable alternative to being disallowed from heaven, therefore, no coersion. Im cool with that.

Creator or not.

Torturous hell is found by many right here on earth, likewise heavenly pleasures are also found on earth.
As for comparing governments to God the argument is foolish.
You assume that there is an unlimited free market of gods available for individuals to choose to worship or that God is mutable. The God that i claim is one; a source, like a point of origin, analogous to the point established by an architect when using a compass to draw a circle. Like it or not there is only one point within a circle unless of course you claim more than one is true.

well if you want to get

well if you want to get technical, god does tell us not to worship any god over him because he's jealous. Why would he say that if he's the only one?

But more to the point, its not one person's silly imaginary pantheon over another's that I find distasteful. You, out of billions of other humans have invented your own idea of what god is, and believe that to be the one TRUTH... great. Not sure what your odds are of being the one who got it right, but whatever... You can wosship the Flying Spagetti Monster for all I care. What concerns me is wether you believe coersion is justified for those who haven't violated another's rights or not. It is that alone that will dictate wether you are individualist or collectivist.

You can't have it both ways. Either your god has a hell where you go if you don't submit, or he doesnt.

and you can absolutly draw the connection between politics and religeon, because politicians designed religeon to make "you" more suseptable to them. There's a reason the entire thing is a cosmic monarchy designed to teach peasants to accept ridiculous fables and bow to absolute authority. Romans 13 anyone?

Why would you get offended if no one was imposing on you?

You said you find the judeo/christian view of God offensive.

Why? Are they imposing on your life?

If you are a libertarian and non-believer, YOU WOULD NOT CARE, unless someone were imposing on your life.

Since you do care and are even "offended" by something that has zero impact on your life, I hate to tell you, but you are NOT a libertarian! You're a meddler. You want to meddle in others lives. You want to proselytize them to your version of religion, to your atheism.

You are no different than any other proselytizing religionist.

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

God is capable of creating gods, is he not?
Try reading.
Jesus was an anarchist!
Romans 13 is nothing more then Paul being as wise as a snake.

No, God is not...

No, God is not capable of creating gods. There are some things God cannot do. One of them is that He isn't going to create other gods. There sure are a lot of loony beliefs on this website about God.

No King but Jesus, no President but Ron Paul

Time is merciless

...and so is God.

Remember that the wages of sin is death. Christ came to earth to save souls and not bodies.

Eternal life of the soul is the goal imo.

Praise God and love Him with all your heart and all thy might.


Christ came

For only the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5