29 votes

But Who Would Pave The Roads?!

There seem to be a few "road socialists" out there.

Just because they grew up in a country where the state has kept a tight monopoly on transportation routes, they cannot even imagine what it would be like if road maintenance was taken care of by private groups.

The argument for socialized health-care is quite similar.

In fact, the same goes for education.

Some people cannot imagine how children would be educated if not payed for by taxes.

This is due to a lack of imagination, and lack of faith in free people, coming together to solve problems.

So what is the solution?

Either pay for socialized roads, or get thrown in a cage with the rapists!

This was part of the argument that was presented to me:

"If a person wants shoes, they have a huge selection of possibilities and even the choice to make their own or go barefoot. If a private company owned the route I take to work or the grocery store, I literally would have no other options than to pay or walk in the grass beside the road."

As of current, if you do not pay the state for licenses, registration, inspection, and the taxes that go towards roads, you cannot travel on them.

Nothing will change in a market-based road scenario.

The only thing that will be different is that we will have MANY different roads that will compete with each other.

This competition will bring roads down to a market-level cost.

That means roads would be cheaper in a market based system.

YOU ARE PAYING TOO MUCH RIGHT NOW.

And either way, you ARE paying for the roads.

So choose, do you want freer, cheaper roads, or restrictive, expensive roads that are populated by sharks that want to give you citations?

I made this point:

"Hell, if private companies can manage to put satellites into space, manage nation-wide cell phone networks, and build super-powered computers the size of a thin book, then do you think that people can manage to lay a measly strip of pavement down a country lane?"

To this, my opposition said:

"Again.. because your idea works in one area doesn't mean it will work for everything."

Are you supporting the concept of market failure?

Because that is one of the cornerstones of the argument for socialized state services.

You aren't on their side, are you?

So if anyone out there can present a consistent, cogent argument for the socialization of the roadways, I would love to hear it.

Any takers?

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I know you're in the snow

I know you're in the snow plow business and you want me to buy a plow? ;-)

My reply was in response to someone who suggested the construction company that built the road should also own the road.
If I own the road I have no problem contracting with my town to maintain it. However, I have an elderly neighbor that doesn't drive. She doesn't care about snow removal or road maintenance. Instead of having a patch work of snow removal the town government elected by the residents was given the authority to do snow removal.

Do you realize every gas

Do you realize every gas station is a toll booth? Do some research on how much each gallon you buy is taxed.

If roads were privatized you could save around $.50 per gallon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States...

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine

You actually believe

You actually believe government would lower the gas tax??!? They would just waste the money on something else.

Maybe you are right

They would just rename it an environmental footprint tax. More reason to get rid of government and taxes entirely.

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine

More reason to limit them to

More reason to limit them to the things they do well like snow and trash removal.

Services provided aside, how

Services provided aside, how they obtain funding is the issue. Here is a scenario for you...

McDonald's decides they make such a good burger they will deduct the price of a Big Mac from everyone's paycheck. Once a week you could go collect said Big Mac. Would this be fair? Of course not! Some might not want a Big Mac every week, prefer Burger King, or even not want fast food at all.

Try using the same logic with government provided services.

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine

So non drivers wouldn't have

So non drivers wouldn't have to pay road tax? But the cost of goods and services that travel on those roads would increase to make for the difference. People who drive and pay taxes in neighboring towns would have to pay a toll if they drive into another town. I drive through parts of a couple of dozen towns a day so I'd need to work out a deal with each town?!?? :-(
Or I can pay my local town or the state to work out a deal for me. Even better when it comes to roads we can just leave things as they are,

You would have the right to use the current system

Others would have the right to opt out(not be taxed), and use a toll road of their choosing. Competition is a good thing. Think of it this way. Under the current system, instead of toll booths you have plates and tags. You also pay for police to monitor the roads to ensure everyone traveling has plates and tags.

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine

So we need to set up a

So we need to set up a competing set of toll roads (where would we put them?) and we need more bureaucrats to maintain the system. We would still need police to monitor the roads and new police to monitor the toll roads. Although its an interesting idea I still prefer the current system.

Some ideas

Existing roads in disrepair could be purchased and reconstructed into private roads.
Neighborhoods and subdivisions could form co-ops for an independent road system.
Market conditions could develop hybrid systems. Those who opt out could pay a toll to use public roads while those with tags would have access to express lanes.

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine

?

"Road maintenance is one of the few things government does well."

Where?

Tulare County CA

Roads are perfect.. repairs are made at night when there is little commuter traffic. and when I say the roads are perfect.. they are smooth... so smooth.... that a Uhaul cooking meth has no worries of explosion.

And you would know about a U-Haul cooking meth not

exploding, how?

The pieces to your puzzle are coming together nicely

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

Because I got behind one

stank to high heaven. I mean it was a wicked sick smell. It stank so bad I talked about it and I was told by someone.. don't remember who told me, but it made sense. Had I known you, I would have thought it was you in the uhaul.

If it was the sheriff, police I would admit that.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE my Sheriff. We are SO lucky to have him..
I love the police cheif where I live, good man. Good officers, good programs.

It's great to live in a place where you LOVE the people who work in authority roles. And I support them.

Did you know that our county jail grows 40% of it's own food? There are beds available ira if you need one, we only imprison people who go out of their way to hurt other people and their property.

Sure, right, whatever!

Bullshit story! Nice to know you have such loving masters. Someday the love will be used on you!

Ron Paul never had a chance with people like you in the GOP. But that's why you're in it isn't it, sister sellout? Don't think for one second real patriots in CA aren't aware of you and your subversive activities. You fool nobody!

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

They are my friends ira

I'm not trying to fool anyone.. what is the most HATED kind of person here on DP a zionist.. here I am ira. EXPOSED.

I'm not a sell out.. I actually pay to play.

Hitler had friends too

They all got a pretty awesome retirement necktie for that friendship!

Pay to play my butt. Why then do you come here to panhandle for gas and motel money to attend your GOP zio-fests?

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

Yes he did

Grand Mufti for the palestinians (Arab refugees looking for work from the American Jewish investments) was a huge friend of Hitler's.

Here's your friends ira

https://www.google.com/search?q=Iran+hitler+salute&rls=com.m...

I didn't panhandle because I needed the money ira. It wasn't even my idea. It was a poster named Missy. I thought why not? You made no contribution, so what's your beef ira? That I have NO PROBLEM getting money from DP, or my district, or whatever???

Did Ron Paul panhandle because he needed money? Most folks in politics have money. That's not why we panhandle.

No one had to contribute to me, though I did represent DP, not myself.. last convention I represented my district. Matter of fact, several who became upset when I found myself LOVING ISRAEL. (I mean I LOVE ISRAEL SO MUCH)))) (((((((((ISRAEL)))))))))

I refunded some DPers ira,, and others who didn't ask for their money back, but have attacked me.. I sent a check to Nystrom, not DP. You really are nieve about money and politics.. guess that's why you don't have any.

I especially like the pic of Bibi giving the Nazi salute at the

UN! Sicko!

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

I bet you do

You appear to be very attracted to lies. The picture of Bibi was when he ewas driscribing the red line.. I filed a complaint with Google, should be cleared up soon, after all, Google has a HUGE global headquarter in Tele-Aviv.

Good idea. Email HQ and get that embarrassing pic

removed! Hmmmm.

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

It's not embarrassing for me

The picture is Bibi explaining the red zone.. so it's misplaced.. by someone like you. Hope Google tracks and nabs the guy.

Cost Effectiveness

is the real question in the OP.

What are your thoughts?

I'm the road crew

which is kinda funny because I once pulled my back out when I was lifting weights and the ladies machines just didn't have the resistance I needed.. I let the weight drop and lunged to grab it so it wouldn't slam down. Went to see a chiropractor and he tells me that he and his wife just returned from Russia and I reminded him of the women hauling rock by hand on their roads crews.

When I came here, the neighbors all pitched in and did the roads together. After I did the roads on my property I had some rock left.. so I did some road repair work.. volunteer.. I paid for it, I did the work.. road held for two years and several big storms that one wasjed out a county built road. Actually, my work is still holding up, while the county road the neighbors are constantly repairing them. Next rock load, I'll repair those for them.

Ask any neighbor and they'll tell you.. "I'm the man" because my road work is excellent..

Unless you hawve someone like me, let the county do it. Need a job? Road work pays well, keeps you in shape.. I like it.

I'm not going to post where I

I'm not going to post where I live but the roads are passable and the snow is removed in a timely fashion.

Who would pave the roads?

The same private companies that do it now. Granted they may have to actually compete on price with no key palm to grease, but we'd manage to get the roads taken care of.

I'm down with the Freedom to Roam, personally.

And don't see exactly how that fits into your libertarian utopia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

"In England and Wales public access rights apply to certain categories of mainly uncultivated land—specifically "mountain, moor, heath, down and registered common land." Developed land, gardens and certain other areas are specifically excluded from the right of access. Agricultural land is accessible if it falls within one of the categories described above. Most publicly owned forests have a similar right of access by virtue of a voluntary dedication made by the Forestry Commission. People exercising the right of access have certain duties to respect other people's rights to manage the land, and to protect nature.

In Scotland and the Nordic countries of Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden as well as the Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania the freedom to roam may take the form of general public rights which are sometimes codified in law. The access is ancient in parts of Northern Europe and has been regarded as sufficiently basic that it was not formalised in law until modern times."

Libertarians don't seem to have much use for the Commons, either - another ancient right:

"Commons refers to the cultural and natural resources accessible to all members of a society, including natural materials such as air, water, and a habitable earth. These resources are held in common, not owned privately."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commons

but who will neglect the roads???

but, who will neglect the roads???

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Obviously,

if the state didn't pave the roads, some "profiteer" would come around with some backwards idea of building their own frictionless track, or high speed commuter rail, or solar powered shuttle services, or god only knows what. Then think of the mess we'd be in? We wouldn't have congested, impeding, continuously deteriorating and dangerous transportation routes. Worst then that, the government wouldn't get the same level tax revenues to take care of us on the roads. And.....if we don't pay them at the pump with every bit of fuel we wouldn't use on those other routes, who would pave the roads?
:)

Right-of-way

To those who are worried about a toll booth at every stop sign:

Free market roads would be under the jurisdiction of the adjacent property owners.

This would lead them to come up with a contractual agreement concerning road maintenance.

Essentially it would be exactly what townships and cities are doing right now, just funded voluntarily--without threats.

Larger roads and highways however, would be sold off to private enterprise for commercial purposes.

We have the concept of right-of-way.

So it's not like anyone is going to put guardrail in front of your driveway.

You don't have to threaten people with fines and cages to get things done.

Taxation is the last remnant of slavery.

Let the slaves go.