But Who Would Pave The Roads?!
Submitted by The Individual Right on Wed, 01/02/2013 - 12:32There seem to be a few "road socialists" out there.
Just because they grew up in a country where the state has kept a tight monopoly on transportation routes, they cannot even imagine what it would be like if road maintenance was taken care of by private groups.
The argument for socialized health-care is quite similar.
In fact, the same goes for education.
Some people cannot imagine how children would be educated if not payed for by taxes.
This is due to a lack of imagination, and lack of faith in free people, coming together to solve problems.
So what is the solution?
Either pay for socialized roads, or get thrown in a cage with the rapists!
This was part of the argument that was presented to me:
"If a person wants shoes, they have a huge selection of possibilities and even the choice to make their own or go barefoot. If a private company owned the route I take to work or the grocery store, I literally would have no other options than to pay or walk in the grass beside the road."
As of current, if you do not pay the state for licenses, registration, inspection, and the taxes that go towards roads, you cannot travel on them.
Nothing will change in a market-based road scenario.
The only thing that will be different is that we will have MANY different roads that will compete with each other.
This competition will bring roads down to a market-level cost.
That means roads would be cheaper in a market based system.
YOU ARE PAYING TOO MUCH RIGHT NOW.
And either way, you ARE paying for the roads.
So choose, do you want freer, cheaper roads, or restrictive, expensive roads that are populated by sharks that want to give you citations?
I made this point:
"Hell, if private companies can manage to put satellites into space, manage nation-wide cell phone networks, and build super-powered computers the size of a thin book, then do you think that people can manage to lay a measly strip of pavement down a country lane?"
To this, my opposition said:
"Again.. because your idea works in one area doesn't mean it will work for everything."
Are you supporting the concept of market failure?
Because that is one of the cornerstones of the argument for socialized state services.
You aren't on their side, are you?
So if anyone out there can present a consistent, cogent argument for the socialization of the roadways, I would love to hear it.
Any takers?
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In a free market, they would not be able to sustain prices...
higher than what the market dictated.
If we define the problem locally enough, it can be said that everyone that owns anything has a monopoly over it. For instance, some towns only have one hardware store. Therefore, in such a town, that owner has a monopoly on hardware. It doesn't mean that he or she can charge $50 per foot for PVC pipe.
If an item or service is thought necessary by an individual for basic survival, they will acquire the item or attain the service even if it cannot be afforded. Just as people would steal bread if it were $100/loaf, a person would avoid the toll on a road if it were too exorbitant (or choose a different route if available).
Further, it seems that it would be rather rare for there to only be one road that can be taken by an individual, and if a single person or entity owned all the roads in a particular location, the pressure from the free market would be even greater on price control (many people rebelling rather than just a few individuals).
If they charged too much, it would be in the interests of others to build alternative roads. The profits of the "monopolist" would fall, and he/she/it would have to either lower prices or suffer financial ruin. People would quit using the roads, and enough money would not be made to keep them maintained. Eventually, the roads would fall into a state of disrepair, and they wouldn't be worth using in any case.
In a free market, they would not be able to sustain prices...
Your whole argument and that of others is missing a very crucial part of my argument or you're willfully skipping over it.
If I have only one way to my job or grocery store. What do you suppose the likely-hood of building a road adjacent to the existing road would be?
The free market thing is arbitrarily thrown out as a fix all when it's clear that the majority of the people who toss it out, that I've seen, don't have any idea how to implement it.
Especially in this case. Free market is, in my mind, a fix all for almost everything on the planet but in this deal, the logistical issues alone, would be impractical.. That's the way he has offered it up.
I've thought a lot about this, because I want to be able to explain my position very well and not have someone eat away at it because I didn't think it through.
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
In addition...
what method do you suppose the said monopolist would use to "force" people to pay an exorbitant toll?
Government or private
security.
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Payment vs Authority
I have no objection to paying a fee for my usage collected at the gas pump, although I suppose it gets more complicated with electric and other vehicles...if only the fees were spent on road maintenance!
However, the authority for which projects get done, and the money to do them, needs to stay as local and as a-political as possible.
If I ever run a campaign for a local candidate, it's going to be run with the theme of "Potholes, first!"
At this point, we all have rights to freely travel public roads, so any attempt to take them private would violate those rights. That discussion is pointless, because it not only won't happen, but it isn't even important in the scheme of things.
What do you think? http://consequeries.com/
private home associations and
private home associations and developments don't seem to have a problem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFxvy9XyUtg
Absolutely but we're talking something much more complicated.
So can you help me out with my problem?
I have one road to get to work on and it's sold to a private company who then decides to charge $10 a day or more to use their road. That's $70 a week.. Now since there are no competing roads and would likely not be, my choices are to either pay or walk or what?
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
This is the false scenario. (but there are a few solutions)
1. First off, worst case scenario and you are forced to comply with the private company with no other options, if you are paying NO TAXES, $70 a week is nothing. Right now I spend about $40 a week just in gasoline tax alone.
2. The government still charges tolls. I haven't been to New York City in 2 years, but last time I was there it cost me $10 dollars to cross a bridge from New Jersey. Socialized roads are not free, nor cheaper. The expenses are just more hidden, but in the case of tolls, exactly as explicit as private company charges.
3. No one can predict what the market will come up with. At one point in history transportation was horses. Then canals developed for a few decades. Then it was trains (and the government created a railroad bubble that caused a depression, FYI). Now it is cars (among other things). Chances are that you will never be limited to "pay the corporation or walk." That is typical liberal fear-mongering, but it is good to have a response ready because it is extremely popular.
4. You can always move if you are truly burdened. Our society has developed the mindset of permanent settlement as being ideal, but historically this is not how people have lived. Towns develop and faulter. A home is an abstract concept that is desired by many, but it is unnecessary and frankly, imaginary. People should be able to change with the market.
So you think my $10 dollar a day is a false
scenario after you had to pay $10 to cross a bridge. I see lol
Number 4 is the only rational thing you've said. That would be an option.. I could just move to another part of the town where the fees are cheaper.
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
I mean saying "it's either this or that" is a false dilemma.
And how is 1-3 not rational? People are attacking the concept of free market roads, but we can't ignore the costs of socialized roads!
Que the demagoguery
LOL
Actually, you don't know my take on it because you haven't read my previous posts.. I just don't like his idea and if you do I suppose I could say you were for a monopoly because moving to a new location, although it's an option, is just unrealistic.
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
Demagoguery? What are you talking about?
Unrealistic?
Dude, the government doesn't even build the roads now. They contract it out. The question is "who is going to pay for the roads?" The answer is the people. The people are the ones currently paying for the roads.
There is nothing unrealistic here. And I wasn't demagoging. Quit with the ad hominem.
Your supposition of private ownership
is interesting. We here in Pa. have a private road that runs from one side of the state to the other as well as a part that runs north to south. It actually would be more appropriate to call it semi private. It is managed and run by a state government appointed commission and is actually owned by the state.It is currently under going a bit of growing pains, it was built in the fifties and most bridges were designed with a 50 year life span. It is definitely a harbor of political patronage and I do imagine any undertaking which would require the taking of property for eminent domain to construct a new highway would also bee rife with political appointees. Those judges know who to repay and they all have relatives.
One other issue that would be worth addressing, the roads of today were mostly designed in the 1950's when this nation had a very vibrant rail road industry. Unfortunately the government found it politically expedient to toss the railroads under the proverbial bus during the 1960's to curry favor with the Teamsters. This caused an incredible amount of heavy truck traffic to appear almost instantaneously on our highways. The toll upon our highways and infrastructure was and is incredible. If you can, go find a road that is not used for heavy truck traffic and compare it to an interstate road. Not that I'm bitchin, I'm in the industry and make a very comfortable living dealing with the Governments misguidance.
If not us than who?
Okay, this is EXACTLY what I was talking about..
You say "I" can't imagine? Seriously dude, you really need to think things through before you post. Just stating things isn't proof that they'd work and it isn't giving examples of imagination. I CAN see how education would work in a free market.. that one is really easy. It's one of the reason I supported Dr.Paul because he wants the same things.
"As of current, if you do not pay the state for licenses, registration, inspection, and the taxes that go towards roads, you cannot travel on them."
Not true entirely.. some people don't pay them. Some people take taxis, ride bikes, ride buses. Now the taxes might be figured into taxis and buses but not in bikes.
"The only thing that will be different is that we will have MANY different roads that will compete with each other.
This competition will bring roads down to a market-level cost."
Very shortsighted. I have one way to get to work. If you sell that road to a private company, you essentially trade my only way to work, from government to big corp. Still a monopoly. Where would that competing road theory come into play if there's only one road to my job? I suppose I could get a pilots license and fly OVER that guys newly acquired monopoly.
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I live at a large lake
and know some one who rode his hover craft over the lake and crossed the state high way to get to a watering hole. Cop wrote him a ticket which was summarily dismissed due to the fact that his vehicle never touched or traveled on the road.
If not us than who?
LOL
Really, in about 2 years, I'll have no dog in this "fight".. I'll be on secluded property, where there are no roads to. Plane only.
Hopefully I can make it sooner but life keeps pushing the date back, dammit.
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
It's Simple...
We can explain it to them, but we cannot understand it for them...
When Fascism goes to sleep, it checks under the bed for Ron Paul!
You have to actually explain something for it to be
understood. All he's done, has been to throw out "free market will fix it!!"
If taxes are collected through corporations to pay for roads.. I'm not seeing a downside to that other than we'd get charged higher prices through corporate products, which is how the free market works anyway..
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
The point is...
I'm not going to waste my time trying to tell anyone that wont learn!
When Fascism goes to sleep, it checks under the bed for Ron Paul!
You don't have anything to teach to start with.
People like you just spout feel good statements with no understanding as to how they would work out.
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
I've got a mile of road
shared with three neighbors.. none who are able to do any road work.. So I do the road work. Actually, I'm very good at it as my patches last long.. I use 1" river rock and 3/4" crushed rock. The truth is.. the road needs to be scraped and rebuilt, but the sum of the neighbors can't afford that since the county closed down the gravel yards and rock has to be hauled in from 70 miles away..
When there are no resources, or resources are expensive and you don't have the labor/help, one either needs to park the truck a mile from home and walk, relocate, or get some help to rebuild the road.
Where the road meets the highway, there are other issues.. besides dead animals, trash (that could be dangerous), overgrowth, gullies clogged.. and I'm out there doing my best..
But let me tell you... this year.. Thank God CAL Trans, because they have equipment I don't, and they came through this area around September.. cleared the sides of the road including removing overgrown trees that blocked the view, that I had trimmed and trimmed,, but did not have the abilty to fell the trees as some had to come down over the road to be removed.. they made repairs and I'm LOVING the work they did, still.. made surviving the winter storms easier..
I know my aged, disabled neighbors, would LOVE to help me.. they tip me, everyone has offered to take me to dinner or lunch, they say THANK you and compliment me all the time, because they are damn grateful I'm hauling and packing that road, and I do really good work..
Which brings me to what I believe is the BIGGEST problem.. Trash Trucks.. Trash trucks tear the road up (they know it and they challenge my repairs and my repairs are sustaining.. I do not use county waste disposal. I have very little waste.. all paper is burned (fire starter).. all scraps are either composted or fed to the chickens.. which leaves me very little remaining.. plastic I try to get away from purchasing anything with plastic.. Our county has banned plastic bags, now working on plastic cups..so I usually take my little bag of plastic items to the soup kitchen and put it in the recycling container. As for glass.. I build glass bottle walls..
As long as county, state, contracted services, like trash trucks are using and wearing out the roads, as people are many times unable or unwilling to break their backs hauling repairing roads.. I am grateful for the contracts the county and city make to keep the roads open.
STAND WITH RAND 2016
Here's RichardTaylorAPP
He tells you what I was trying to get across to you concerning Constitutional taxes.. You seem to skip right over the idea I put forth without so much as a peep.
Try and figure out if you can, what, how and who, would be paying for roads if I had it my way. The Constitutional way..
http://www.pacificwestcom.com/patriottax/
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
Here's my last comment from the other thread.
Did he get to any details or was it a fluff piece all the way through?
I don't care for Walter... I saw his stupid attempt at the abortion issue.. again, he was just throwing ideas out without..Understanding the human variable in all things or how things would practically work out.
So, if Walter has something to say that's pertinent, I'll be glad to listen, if not, then please don't post things like that as if it's some sort of proof. All it was up to the 14 minutes, was more "We can do this" rhetoric and no substance as to HOW.
I want facts, concretely worked out ideas.
BY the way.. this is the second time you've insulted me.. wasn't it you who said that if you see someone insulting you, it means you've hit on something? :)
Education is a great candidate for free market. Roads aren't though, not as you've weakly laid out anyway.
They are already established. No possibility or likely possibility to have competing roads to the same destination so whomever buys my road that gets me to work, WILL have a monopoly. You're not in favor of monopolies are you?
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
Lazy
After reading? one article which failed to cover the issue from every possible angle you declare the idea to be bankrupt? Rather than spend a few minutes googling the issue, you deride Block for not materializing out of thin air to spoon-feed you a concept. Your unwillingness to learn is not a sign of the weakness of an idea.
In 1861, a legitimate question might have been: if we don't have slaves, who will pick the cotton? How would an agricultural industry dominated by slavery adapt to a world of voluntary exchange? Who could have possibly known the in 50 years, giant robots would be invented that could pick more cotton in one hour than 100 slaves could in a week? No one knows exactly how fully private roads would work, but I do know they wouldn't be founded upon and funded by violence and coercion.
Even China has made tremendous strides in this area. An entrepreneur has an idea to build a road somewhere, collects investors, then makes a profit through tolls or advertising. Only the people who use that road pay for it, and no one is burdened by it who does not use it.
Ask yourself why the free market can be trusted with education, but not with roads?
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito
No asswipe, I am not lazy..
I derided Block because he's a pie in the sky type with very little foot on ground. I also was a little miffed that someone put up an empty VIDEO, not article, BTW as proof that his ideas were solid.
And we're talking free market ideas or HIS free market idea as it would pertain to roads.. not cotton.. not schools..
If you would have taken your own advice and read what I have written in the links provided by him, you would have seen that I am FOR free market education and a huge amount of other free market ideas because they work.
You jackholes are doing nothing but demagogue-ing.
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
Did I just get called an "asswipe" by a grown adult?
Also, "jackhole"?? Would you like to give me a swirly and stuff me in a locker next? Do you think the guy doing the name-calling is usually the one winning the argument, or the one losing the argument?
I don't agree with Block on everything, but he's dead on when it comes to roads. I just don't understand the thought process behind a person who is willing to entrust to the free market the provision of all the most vital necessities of life, including food, clothing, shelter, and medicine...but not roads?
You can't even argue that the private sector is incapable of doing it, since there are numerous examples of successful privately built/owned roads. You can only argue that a government beauracracy would be better, which is an odd stance for a Ron Paul supporter to have to defend.
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito
Yep you sure did.
"You can't even argue that the private sector is incapable of doing it, since there are numerous examples of successful privately built/owned roads."
Why would I argue that when it's clear by my posts that I support the idea that it would work on some level.. I posted my own experience with private roads.. I lived on one as well, where a neighbor had a grader, people would pay for his gas and time and he'd scrape the roads.
There are variables that I've brought up that many of you pie-in-the-sky types would rather brush off. Do the little experiment I suggested 3 times now to various people whop have yet to agree to try it.
I live right on a main route.. there are no other routes to the grocery store.. Do you live on a road like that? If so, try your best to get to that store, without driving on that road. Well hell I could simply go south instead of north, and drive 15 miles out of my way, one way, to get to the store, if I didn't or couldn't pay the fee for driving on the main road. Sure, that would work.. but now, I know this is going to be hard for some of you, to imagine that multiplied by 1000 to 100'000 detours over the same issue throughout the nation.
Now I'll ask you the same ting I asked 4 other people now.. Do you know that this issue goes all the way back to the Founding Fathers? Look it up.
By the way.. When you insult someone or you're snippy with them.. don't get vaginal when it's done to you.
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
Road socialism
I'll do my best to answer your question.
Your question is a legitimate one, in a way. What would happen if the most direct route to your destination was blocked through prohibitive fees? I have experience with similar issues, but not due to monetary reasons. I grew up in a rural area, and often times due to landslides or bridge repairs, I would be unable to use the direct route to and from my home for months, or sometimes years at a time. So the idea that this issue could only exist under an ancap road system isn't entirely true. At least in ancap world I COULD use that road if I was willing to pay enough. In my example (real life) I was unable to for any reason.
But let's get back to your example. This road is being run by people who want to make a profit, yes? Why on earth would the set the price so high that the people who live long it couldn't afford to drive on it? Many of the most profitable companies in the world are those that sell large quantities at rock bottom prices. Roads would be most profitable when everyone can afford to use them, and not just when 2 or 3 rich people can pay the tolls. Also, youre presupposing the only way to fund a private road is through tolls. I can imagine a world where companies pool funds to build roads to translort goods and give their customers access to those roads (and subsequently their stores) for free. Or what about if a pool of investors builds a road and just puts up a few billboards to fund it?
This goes back to my earlier question: why do you trust the free market with all of the most vital necessities of human life, but you get scared of evil capitalist monopoly men with curly mustaches when it comes to roads?
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito
Look, I don't have a problem discussing
things with you but I would appreciate it if you went back and read this whole thread where I've written my reasons because I've answered every one of your questions in one fashion or another about 5 times to different people.. Frankly I'm tired of tackling the same argument from each of you each time.
One guy has hit me with the same free market idea 5 times now and I keep hoping what I'm saying about logistics and human nature will sink in but, nope.. not happening.
"Why on earth would the set the price so high that the people who live long it couldn't afford to drive on it?"
When you ask me questions like this when there are many examples where greed has twisted into something other than good free market sense, it makes me a little, well annoyed.
This society has a propensity for corruption, it's evident, that we have lost moral ground so it's silly to think that there won't be cases of gouge when people know that they have you by the balls.
I would be glad to work some sort of system out to where as one poster put it, voluntary tax, was placed on a product strictly for the duration of the completion of a road..
If you can come up with an actual competing free market idea, I'm all ears. As it is.. just selling our shit to a private company does not a free market make.
How about we just sell it all to the federal reserve? They're are after-all a private group no? :)
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.
Continued
"I would appreciate it if you went back and read this whole thread "
Your conversations with others are of no concern to me.
"I keep hoping what I'm saying about logistics and human nature will sink in"
You aren't making an argument here. You're saying 'I have a really great point that no one seems to understand. I won't bother telling you what it is, but trust me, it's great.' If you have an argument to make, don't just say you have it. Actually spell out your idea.
"voluntary tax"
Is that like consensual rape? "Voluntary tax" is a contradiction of terms.
"If you can come up with an actual competing free market idea"
Here's three:
1.) companies can build roads to enable consumers to support their businesses (as they have in the past) much like they provide parking lots and shuttle services now
2.) investors pool resources to build interstates funded by tolls.
3.) investors build roads which are funded by tolls on commercial vehicles only, and billboards are placed along the road to raise additional revenue, allowing individuals to travel on them for free.
All of these ideas have been proven successful at various scales around the world, and none of them require a state.
"How about we just sell it all to the federal reserve?"
Is that a serious question?
"They're are after-all a private group no? :)"
Not entirely. They're a hybrid--a government-sponsored cartel of private entities. It's leadership is appointed by and approved by the federal government, and it's charter was granted by, and can be revoked by, the federal government at any time. Calling the federal reserve "private" doesn't really tell the whole story.
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito