41 votes

Wife got pulled out of the car over a malfunctioning brake light.

On New Years day my wife was subjected to, what my limited legal knowledge tells me, a transgression against her rights as a human. On the plus side, she made an instant conversion to "conspiracy-nut" Libertarianism. She would like to give the "system" as hard a time as possible without getting slapped with contempt of court, lol. I would like to begin with gaining a little knowledge from the DP members who have been successful at fighting off the badge-wielding mafia. I'll try to give as much detail as I can.

She got the infamous red/blue lights in her rearview on New years night on the way TO the bar. The officer pulled out from a side road less than half of a block before her destination, so she pulled into the parking lot, a well lighted area, and parked, remaining in the vehicle. (The officer accused her of evading, lol)...

...She provided all the necessary info to the officer through a small opening in her window (it's cold out, and thugs sporting guns, tazers and gang colors are scary!!!). The officer did not like this one bit, and instructed her, and the passengers to roll the windows all the way down. I'm not fully versed in the whole request/demand/order differentiation legalese. She replied," No, sir. I'd rather not."The officer then asked why she refused. to which she replied,"Sir, I simply do not want to, and I don't think the law requires me to."....

... The officer then put's his arm in the window opening, unlocks the door, opens it, and physically takes her phone away. (she was attempting to start recording the incident on her phone.) Needless to say, this has never happened to her before, so she had an emotional break-down: She started crying and started repeating over and over,"You are violating my rights. This isn't legal."...

... The officer continued to stand in front of the door he opened until his buddies showed up(what happened to performing a "terry-frisk" for his own safety? guess he didn't think she was all that dangerous, huh?), at which point he ordered/requested/demanded that she get out of the car. To which she replied,"I'm afraid to. You just broke the law and violated my rights." So, two of them physically removed her, and cuffed her. She then started asking,"what are you doing? What crime did I commit?"...

... One of the officers that arrived later for "back-up" happened to be a female. This female officer asked if she had any weapons on her. She replied,"No. I have a pocket knife in my coat pocket." The female officer then commenced to search her person for "illegal substences", of course, and she replied,"I don't consent". The officer then said,"don't consent to what?", and continued searching her anyway. She replied,"I don't consent to you touching me in any way."(Maybe she should've used the magic word "search"? IDK)...

... After, IMO, illegal search that found nothing, they told her that they would uncuff her if she would cooperate.(ahh, that good- ol' cooperation that actually fits the dictionary definition of subordination.*scratches head*)So they uncuffed her and made her kiss the breathalyzer and and perform the familiar circus clown skit. No DUI was issued, so she must've passed, right?...

... The original officer gave her a seatbelt citation (at night? on private property? in a parking stall? how could he tell that she hadn't removed it upon parking?), and told her that he was "doing her a favor" and to go have fun in the bar.

That's the story, as I understand it. Could you guys help with the learning process, please? Any links to youtube videos, legal resources that pertain, and websites akin to "flexyourrights.org", and help get us started on all the paperwork we can file to "tie-up" the system would be greatly appreciated.

She has filed to get the official police report from the local police department. There were no dash cams present on any of the patrol cars. There are no useful recordings from her or her passengers' phones. No DUI or public intoxication charges or citations. Only a $10 seat-belt ticket, served with a side of rights trampling and mental abuse.

Anyone should feel free to post their own rants, and provide links to idea they haven't personally tested in court but we(namely she) are particularly interested in comments from those who have successfully navigated the system in similar scenarios, or have legal experience. She now believes that the non-aggression principle in gov't is the way to go, but(for obvious reasons) is still feeling hopeless and scared to death of standing her ground and "flexing her legal muscle" for her first time.

She's nervous, but anxious to get her feet wet. I am Humbly requesting items that will help us gain the knowledge necessary to give them as much hassle as legally possible, as well as items that can increase her confidence and will refute the,"What if this is all conspiracy theory B.S. and the judge puts me in jail" idea.



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Something similar happened to

Something similar happened to me years ago when I was still "asleep". It was about 3am and I was on my way to a job I got a call for that started at 7am three hours away. Evidently my tailight was out so they pulled me over, asked me to step out of the car, asked if I had any weapons in the car(pocket knife) and then asked me if they could search the car...several other officers showed up during this time. I told them they could search if they liked. They questioned me as to where I was going, asked if I was drinking, etc. It was quite a gestapo type feeling, like I said though, I was asleep at the time and let them trample my rights. Of course they found nothing on the search, gave me a citation for the light and let me go....I then went to court, showed the reciept for a light and had the whole thing dropped. What a waste of taxpayer money.

This is how my brother

This is how my brother handles that situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DyWPrAcWJI

A student of Carl Miler?

This is the kind of stuff Carl teaches.
That was beautiful to watch - give your brother my best!

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Your brother is an American badass!!

awesome, awesome, I cannot tell you how cool that was to watch.

kind people rock

Now

THAT is what I'm talking about.

That's what I mean about knowing EXACTLY what you have or DON'T have to do, and what the officer can and can't do.

Notice the officer tries to get his way but the citizen (politely) denies whatever he doesn't have to do. You should only do this if you KNOW what to do/expect in all variations of this situation - for example, even if they call back up (which here they did).

It can take balls, but you can effectively control a situation to a large degree when you know what you're doing! :)

EDIT: also the CAMERA was VERY helpful as insurance against abuse.

What I find "interesting" is

What I find "interesting" is when someone tries to assert their rights in front of the police, the police act like the person is hostile, libertarian-minded people see a hero, and most of society sees them as a disrespectful anti-gov rebel.

.... When this stuff should be the friggin back-bone of any high school civics-related class!!! If "ignorance is no excuse", shouldn't they teach ALL THE KIDS this stuff. Most english speaking people don't really need english class for 13 years in a row(there are exception, let me tell ya!!!. I say we replace half of those with "ignorance is no excuse class".

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

You're not supposed to learn

You're not supposed to learn in a government school, silly rabbit, Trix are for kids.

lawrence

At least, as a last resort,

At least, as a last resort, do NOT PAY them one penny! For an amount that small, I would just request a hearing/trial show up and politely tell the judge you are there to pay your debt to society, not with money, but you submit to jail time until your debt has been paid! She will likely get a few hours or less behind bars, and the judge may very well just tell her to leave as they only want money, not more work! Most places "pay" between $100 and $200 per day for time served. Anything else will require an attorney or months of legal research, and could land yourself in more trouble. If just 2% to 10% of us demanded to "sit out our debt to society" in jail, this whole corrupt system would collapse! At least the victimless traffic citations part! I would suggest we all start sitting out any small offense or traffic ticket in jail! Instead of feeding the beast, you are occupying it. Sure, you have to give up a few hours to a few days of time, but you can use that to educate everyone you come in contact with. Use sick days or vacation days, many times the judge will allow you to come over the weekend even. Take the path of civil disobedience.

Private Prisons

"If just 2% to 10% of us demanded to "sit out our debt to society" in jail, this whole corrupt system would collapse!"

Actually the private prison industry would post record profits if even just 1% did this.
Besides, when has deficit spending stopped the government from trampling our rights and the constitution.

Tools of war are not always obvious. The worst weapon is an idea planted in the mind of man. Prejudices can kill, suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has an everlasting fallout all of its own.

You are so WRONG! Going to

You are so WRONG! Going to prison and sitting in the local county/city jail overnight are two wildly different things. Your ignorance is so deep that I fear any explanation would be worthless, so I'll stop here.

my ignorance is so deep i

my ignorance is so deep i fear for my life.

i'm sorry. i'm deprived of sleep. and the internet screen is messing with my eyes and mind. i've been addicted to the internt and haven't read a book in 5 weeks.

it is unsettling.

lawrence

Phxarcher87's picture

There is a pretty cool Phone App

You start it when you get pulled over or are talking to someone and you want to record the conversation secretly. You start it and it hides on the phone so you cant tell its recording.... Pretty cool app also comes in handy when your friends drink to much!

THE CLASS OF CITIZENS WHO PROVIDE AT ONCE THEIR OWN FOOD AND THEIR OWN RAIMENT, MAY BE VIEWED AS THE MOST TRULY INDEPENDENT AND HAPPY.
James Madison

Name of app please!

Name of app please!

Indeed, name of app? ... I've

Indeed, name of app?

... I've been thinking that it would be nice to have an app that instantly streamed to somewhere on the web, so they can't jack your phone a "lose the evidence".

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

Name of App is

ACLU NJ police tape and it's free. If you search aclu, it'll come up. It's available for iphone and android.

silly questions

Can cops legally require that you roll your window all the way down?

if so, can the legally reach in and unlock the door?

can cops legally take your cellphone away?

I'm thinking that a man

I'm thinking that a man trained in what is basically gracie jui-jutsu combatives, and is carrying a gun, a tazer, and 6 of his buddies can do anything he wants to a scared female. Especial if they pull the,"I'm gonna let you slide on the ticket" move. Nice little psychological trick they got going for sure. In this case, he let her "slide" on the brake light citation. (gee, thanks, officer. Can I have my dignity back now.)

Of course, you can "legally" get the ticket that they let you slide on tossed out of court. Maybe this is an official tactic? *shakes head*

The main point of fighting back is to restore a tiny bit of the wife's personal power and confidence in justice.

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

Of course not.

Of course not.

Here's what I would do ...

First, I would contact the Institute for Justice. They are a libertarian legal firm that might handle a case like this. At the very least, you can probably get some good insight as to their take on what you might do (maybe they can tell you how to look into this cop's record or the department's record for similar violations, etc.), what cases might have set a precedent, etc.

http://www.ij.org/

Second, I would decide if I want to go through the "normal" channels, or if I want to stretch the envelope (or, possibly a bit of both).

If I wanted to go the normal route, I would file complaints with the department. But that doesn't do much for me, because it will likely get laughed at (not officially, but you can be sure they will behind closed doors, cowards they are). And that's about all you can do through "normal" channels, unless you find legal eagles to work for you (such as IJ above).

Now, if I wanted to go balls out (stretch the envelope), I would consider this:

(1) Educate yourself on "non-normal" legal ideas. As far as I can tell, virtually ALL traffic cases are a scam. They pretend it is not really civil and not really criminal. They pretend the Constitution does not apply, etc. I came a across a website that I DO NOT endorse in full, but they have a "what to do in court" video that is about as lame as lame can be (talking frog or lizard), BUT they have GREAT what-to-do advice on how to challenge the judge in court when they try to get your wife to pay a seat belt ticket.

Watch the video (and look past the lameness to understand the legal issues they raise):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ4c5atUjsE

But, it goes beyond that. You also have to learn how to get the judge to commit reversable error so you can win on appeal, if necessary.

These things are just to defeat the ticket itself, not the cop's violations.

So then ...

(2) I would file a "1983" lawsuit for violation of Constitutional rights against the officer and the city/county:

http://www.constitution.org/brief/forsythe_42-1983.htm

And make sure to get signed affidavits from the other passenger(s) in the car early on, just in case they change their mind later about helping out.

By the way, if you want to take legal matters into your own hands, get a copy of Jurisdicationary. It's a full legal course on how to handle your own cases, and especially how to look up other cases in your area that were similar and what it would take to win:

http://www.jurisdictionary.com

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

Carl Miller is the way to go

Carl Miller is the way to go no mumbo jumbo or legal sovereign voodoo just straight forward following the law:

http://privateaudio.homestead.com/CARLTEXT.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q35DoJroTYY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s-zHrNPfkQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9fdSirNinQ

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Two words...

Internal Affairs. Yep you might have to pay a fine. You can however mire him in tons of pain in the a** paperwork. Simply remind the agency that they work for you, and that most citizens are law abiding good people who don't tolerate being treated as criminal. He will likely be treated to a "review", a "mark" on his file and a couple days riding around with his boss in the car....there is a protocol to be polite and professional, as well a other standards for anger management (on his part). You could be the biggest b**** in the world, he still has to treat you in a certain manner. Maybe this seems like slap on the wrist for his part, but if enough people stayed on top of these type of issues, cops would be more careful in their dealings. Don't be afraid to remind internal affairs that you're going to see this through, as in checking up and expecting discipline and results. This worked for us and our friendly, yet irate local officer!

I like the idea of effecting the officer personally

I know the thought of getting this thug off of the street is a mere pipe dream. However, a few bad days at work with your boss over your soldier can't be pleasant. I'd view that as a small victory. Control freaks are usually overly sensitive, lol.

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

Now this

option makes more sense to me as it directly affects officer(s) involved.

If she has any witnesses or other

forms of proof of the story, then I would tell her to get a lawyer. She has a legal claim under 42 USC 1983 for violation of her constitutional rights to remain free from unlawful search and seizure and false arrest. I would also fight the seatbelt violation in court with this same exact story and say that she took her seatbelt off once on the private property, if that is what. she. did.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

You have a lot of research to do

I would like to help. Although I have not tried any of these yet, others have had success, and it is purely logical argument. You must take in this information in the proper mindset, a liberty mindset.

The way I intend to handle my recent citation is in 2 separate actions. One to deal with their system, then 2 they will have to deal with my system, Common Law as specified by the 7th amendment. I think the most fun will be in step 2.

These 3 videos of Carl Miller along with the proper legal research will get your tickets dismissed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWLQPz3-M7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv5oIQhAvU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvZeLh8agE

The information on this website will show you how to act in your sovereign capacity, to right the wrongs done to you.

http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/foundation.htm

These are audio recordings of the most of the information on 1215.org if you would rather listen than read.

http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/introduction/...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/introduction/...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/introduction/...

http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/sovereignty/t...

http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...
http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/lectures/motions/track...

Purchasing Jurisdictionary may be beneficial as well.
http://www.jurisdictionary.com/

Good luck in your adventures in legal land.

Yep learn the Carl Miller

Yep learn the Carl Miller stuff!

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Carl lays a good foundation for what will follow.

!

Free includes debt-free!

First off... was she alone?

. Without any video/audio evidence... witness affidavits are very helpful in a Title 42 Lawsuit. (section 1983)

While I keep my but out of any kind of civil actions... either as plaintiff or defendant... for the layman just starting out that would be the way to go.

If she was alone... then the only thing you can do is just shut it down in court. This is my FAVORITE video for the layman... and also fishys info on Constitution Man (aka Carl Miller) is for if you can absorb this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb0Aw_p9E7E&feature=youtu.be

Also I posted this a while back... comments have a lot of good info from folks that have already done lots of research.

http://www.dailypaul.com/225915/traffic-ticket-can-a-cop-law...

Two friends in the

Two friends in the car.

Thanks for the links.

Any info on that Title 42 Lawsuit?

"I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

report the incident to the sheriff.

report it to your county sheriff.

also, check this info out..

http://www.dailypaul.com/263394/interesting-videos-on-jurisd...

I use Blue Wave, but don't expect one of THEIR silly taglines.