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The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians

Ron Paul Revolution Radio discussed the book "The book that your church doesn't want you to read" with Santos Bonacci. According to him, the founders were not Christians. They were fleeing it at our founding.

http://youtu.be/oRNf_44fUlQ




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Something to consider

"Most patriots are focusing all their efforts on protecting, defending, and restoring the 1787/1789 Constitution for the united States of America (as compared to the 1871 U.S. [Inc.] Constitution, for the District of Columbia), but few if any realize what a fruitless exercise that is, especially when they are labouring under the false belief that these or any man-made Constitution keeps, or is even based on, God's Laws. Most people are unaware that the constitution was given to them by the people of the New World Order in order to distract, deflect, and keep them away from God's Law. The Hidden Hand never could have set up the New World Order if God's Law was in force, so they had to put in the Constitution. They've written all these nice speeches*, that sound very noble, but the whole thing is to keep people away from God's Laws. If people had kept God's Laws, then there would be no New World Order; there would have been no Ruby Ridge, no Waco, no Sand Point, Idaho - all of these things (and the very real prospect of more of the same in the future), none of these things would have happened."
http://jahtruth.net/plan.htm

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

My final words on this subject.

It was an interesting exercise in defining those truly ready for liberty. Truly ready for freedom. A majority here, against all odds, support the largest most corrupt corporation on the planet. That is, Rome. How are you liberty?

You might think you belong to the true division if you don't call yourself a catholic. But all roads lead to Rome. They all murder, sodomize and steal in the name of a false god.

If the kingdom of heaven is within you, why do you need them?

Goodluck in your journey. Come out of the very heart of the system you profess to hate. Nothing in the world will change until you do.

Facepalm. will watch and comment as I watch. Managed 27 minutes

first of all I think it is ridiculous that someone tells us that he wants us to be sovereign then believes in fate (the idea that the stars and planets affect our daily lives is fate). Sovereignty and fate are opposing veiw points but this guy is linking them together, and this is just the first two minutes.

The pilgrems were a group of Christians that found through the study of their Bible that their state church in England was wrong, they seperated from the church of england so that they could live more pure lives according to the Bible, but santos is saying they were not christians but hermetics.

it is at this point I looked up what hermetism is and found this website http://www.hermeticfellowship.org/HFHermeticism.html and I understand it to be a western form of the new age movement.

At this point in the video he reads the book and the first part explains all problems in america as liberals with marxist ideals and religious people with puritian ideals and bashes the religious people, frankly I find our problems far more complicated than that and if you got rid of the public school system then I would say he would have nothing to bash the religious people about. Frankly I have no time to write about how wrong this aurthur is in his first comments about the religious people who apparently bashes him and oppresses him, with their words.

santos then explains the history of his school, and I have no problem until he starts talking about secret wisdom and knowledge that only some have access too and how that is wonderful. Personally I am a baptist and through out the middle ages the cathlic church treated the Bible that way and killed my people for reading it without the preist as the priest were given secret knowledge to understand it. Frankly the dark ages ended when secret knowledge ended, particularly on the Bible (the printing press came out and a lot of people got the Bible in their language and everybody found out the cathlic church was LYING to them about the Bible and they left) secret knowledge is a very bad thing especially in religion.

He list francis bacon as a herminit but francis bacon was a humanist. He list Johannes Kepler as a herminist but kepler was a devout Lutheran. glad to see he can back up his belief's with out right easily seen lies.

Then he says the American founders wanted to create a modern government. I personally disagree, I believe they wanted to make a small government. I know of several instances where people went to the congress who was hammering out these details with the single purpose of telling them they did not want government involvement, particularly on the idea of the state church http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel05.html

after listening to him say over and over again how we are a herminuc country he says that his people where the people who brought in the idea of separation of church and state. He is either very ignorant or a liar, again read http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel05.html it was the baptist that espoused this doctrine and were violently persecuted for it in america even after 1776.

sadly after lying about where separation of church and state comes from he starts an anti religion rant based on the separation of church and state, which I find rather annoying because he is wrong about separation of church in state there for he is wrong about his rather long rant about how the separation of church and state proves how bad all the different churches are.

between 22:30 and 24:15 he has so much wrong about Christian beliefs that it would take literal hours to explain how confused he is.

He then says the founders where clearly hermedist, well let me let wall builders answer this Many were trained as ministers, but at the time of the signing of the Declaration, only a few were active in ministry. For example John Witherspoon was serving as a minister at that time; Robert Treat Paine served as a military chaplain during the Revolution; and Lyman Hall had served as a minister before the Revolution; etc. However, there are many others who should also be noted for their ministry work, including Francis Hopkinson, a church music director and choir leader who edited a famous American hymnbook; Roger Sherman, who wrote the doctrinal creed for his denomination in Connecticut; Benjamin Rush, who started Sunday School in America and founded the country’s first Bible Society; James Wilson, who had been trained as a clergyman in Scotland but became an attorney, teaching students the Biblical basis of civil law; and many others. In fact, at least 29 of the signers had been trained in schools whose primary purpose was the preparation of ministers, including John Adams, Samuel Adams, Carter Braxton, Charles Carroll, William Ellery, Elbridge Gerry, Lyman Hall, John Hancock, Benjamin Harrison, Joseph Hewes, William Hooper, Francis Hopkinson, Thomas Jefferson, Francis Lewis, Philip Livingston, Thomas Lynch, Arthur Middleton, Lewis Morris, Thomas Nelson Jr., William Paca, Robert Treat Paine, Benjamin Rush, James Smith, Richard Stockton, William Williams, James Wilson, John Witherspoon, Oliver Wolcott, and George Wythe. They attended universities and seminaries of learning such as Harvard, Yale, William and Mary, Princeton, Cambridge, and Westminster. this is found at http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=100766
to reiterate at least 29 of the founders went to school to be part of the ministry. so saying that the majority were theist or whatever this guy calls them is wrong. there were theist without a doubt but they were a minority.

around the 26:30 mark he says that his belief is freedom (considering the secret nature of his beliefs I would disagree) and christianity is slavery. Now at this point I proven he has lied about a lot of what he believes, but now he is openly attacking christianity. Sorry but this guy is at best an infiltrator into the liberty movement at worst he is a blind nut who can not even do basic google searches. Either way any Christian waking up to what the government is doing will be turned off by the load of crap this guy is selling. I am sorry I listened to almost 27 minutes of this guy but I am done now as it is filled with lies, and at best misunderstanding.

The *Framers* Were Not Christians, Privately

Publicly, their anti-Christian presuppositions were expressed in the Constitution's failure to "Kiss the Son." Ps 2.

Because of this it was possible for statism to gain a foothold. (Biblical civil government is small. 1 Sam 8)

Charles Jackson
http://MathIsChristian.wordpress.com Also, read Ron Paul's original staff economist Gary North at http://teapartyeconomist.com/

Theism

I think you are mixing up the Founders up with theists.

donvino

Thomas Jefferson said.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

Thomas Jefferson

Was not a Christian in that he didn't accept major Christian doctrines such as the divinity of Christ. However, he considered the morality of Jesus Christ to be the most sublime and perfect of all moral philosophies and tried to follow it. He also stayed somewhat affiliated with the Anglican church his entire life and contributed financially to all the churches in his town.

"To the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

seems to be an admittance...

...that a "pure religion" exists....and guess what? Most Ron Paul supporters are tapped into it....it's how we separate truth from lies, and develop the courage to fight/oppose/expose evil that masquerades at good!

Yes.

Yes there is a truth about our existence. No, most Ron Paul supporters are not tapped into it. This thread is evidence. Then again, it could be filled with non Ron Paul supporters?

like maybe you. I can't

like maybe you. I can't believe your still at this. You must have a lot of free time on your hands

Live Free or Die Trying

SteveMT's picture

This is a friendly reminder to not bump your own story

You don't need to with this thread.
http://www.dailypaul.com/guide

I'm not bumping.

I am adding information. Big difference, ay.

Ben Franklin said.

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

and

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any particular marks of His displeasure.

SteveMT's picture

Agree about Franklin. He also wrote this.

Autobiography by Founding Father Benjamin Franklin:

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the Dissenting way. But I was scarce fifteen when after doubting, by turns, of several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/autobiography/page27.htm

Yep

Deism: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe.

There is not one christian church on the planet that I know of that believes this. All of them, ALL of them teach an intervening god. One who punishes and blesses in relation to your obedience to one of the 30,000 or so corporations called churches.

If they didn't make you slaves to a scary god, how would they make their money? The founders were quite aware of this BS and it is the point I am trying to make.

do you have a point to make? and IF so, what is it?

I am a deist and will tell you straight up we have a very fine group of Christians here.
what "laws of the universe" are you talking about?
why don't YOU identify your own beliefs and let me have a whack at them pinhead.
my bet is that you are just here to cause trouble.

None of the major Founders were deists

Except for possibly Paine. All of them, even if they were not Christians, believed in a God who was active in the human world. They also believed that the American Revolution had been won with divine intervention.

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

SteveMT's picture

None? Is that really true?

These sites must be wrong then.

List of Famous Deists:
Ethan Allen - American revolutionary and guerrilla leader
Aristotle - ancient Greek philosopher; founder of Aristotelianism
George Berkeley - Anglican bishop; philosopher
Cicero - Platonist; orator
Charles Darwin - nominal Anglican; active Unitarian
Paul Davies - Australian philosopher, physicist
Albert Einstein - Jewish, with Spinozan concept of God
Antony Flew - raised Methodist; was a famous atheist who switched to Deism
Benjamin Franklin - a Founding Father of United States; inventor; diplomat
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - German philosopher and writer
Stephen Hawking - physicist
William Hogarth - influntial British artist and engraver
David Hume - Presbyterian (Church of Scotland); philosopher
Thomas Jefferson - Episcopalian
Immanuel Kant - Lutheran; Pietist; philosopher
Gottfried Leibniz - Lutheran; German philosopher and mathematician
Gotthold Ephraim Lessing - philosopher, writer, art critic
Abraham Lincoln - raised Baptist; later a Christian with distinctive beliefs and no specific denominational affiliation
John Locke - raised as a Puritan (Anglican); later general liberal Protestant Christian
James Madison - 4th U.S. President; Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris - Episcopalian; led committee that produced U.S. Constitution
Voltaire - Jansenist writer, philosopher
George Washington - Episcopalian; 1st U.S. president
Thomas Paine - Quaker; American revolutionary and writer
Elihu Palmer - former Baptist minister who tried to organize Deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York"
Mark Twain - Presbyterian author, humorist
Plato - ancient Greek philosopher; Platonist
Alexander Pope - Catholic; poet and satirist
Maximilien Robespierre - leader of French Revolution
Baruch Spinoza - Jewish philosopher
Alfred Lord Tennyson - Anglican writer
Matthew Tindal - English deist philosopher; raised Anglican
John Toland - philosopher of deism, "freethinker"; wrote Christianity not Mysterious; distinguished himself from both atheists and orthodox theologians
Keith R. Wright - founder and first president of the United Deist Church
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_deist.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deists
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Episcopalien

is not a diest church, so what is your point on george washington? And I do not have time to go through your list but stephen hawing is not in any way a deist, at best he calls god (small g because he is not talking about my God) a metaphor.

Frankly I find it disturbing that you have to list a bunch of random famous people to prove your point, especially when an easy google search proves you wrong.

SteveMT's picture

I searched this also.

Google: George Washington

Religion
Episcopalian[2]
Deism[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington

Google: Benjamin Franklin religion

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN’S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS

You will find a mixed bag of beliefs when it comes to Benjamin Franklin and his religion. He believed in God and His supremacy. Although he grew up under Calvinist teaching, he later came under the influence of British Deistic thought and he eventually became a prominent Deist, but rejected the more radical Deism. Yet, mixed in with his Deist belief was Calvinistic doctrine. One could say that Franklin became a new and prudent Deist.
http://acheritagegroup.org/blog/?p=596

Google: Thomas Paine

Religion Deism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

Did you read the article?

It literally said that he was a deist because when he talked about what God does he uses the word providence, that is an incredibly weak argument considering he also had a position in the church. Was ben franklin a deist, probably, how about pain, probably, what about jeferson, probably, but outside of that I doubt any of the founding fathers were were. I do not see the need for people to call a lot of he founding fathers deist when its pretty clear they were not, except of course if they have an agenda, but it really makes whatever their agenda is look bad.

One of the things that makes the wiki article look bad and theist for that matter is that the article says that he mentioned Jesus when he clearly did in the book of prayer he wrote http://prayer1.org/home/409/classic-prayer-text/george-washi... yes it literally took me five minutes to debunk the theist. again.

Amen

To that.

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain

LoL ... First, one must

LoL ... First, one must define "founding father" and "Christian" before making such a blanket statement. Although the more famous "founding fathers" certainly weren't fundamentalists, a significant number of our "founding fathers" were Christian and heavily impacted the final text of our founding documents.

Thank you phxarcher87

I wish all your comments could have been kept as the first comments one would see under this wretched post.
M Oliver - remove the hatred from your heart - for your own sake. Stop bothering with how other's believe and just work on yourself.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

I Will watch the video when I

I Will watch the video when I have more time...
But the title of this post is a blanket statement that seems a bit over the top. And when people speak in overarching generalities, they are seldom wanting to have a frank and open minded discussion of the issue raised.
They may simply want to inflame passions and get emotions heated up. It's more like a load of fun and games in such cases.

Why would I ask?

Why would I ask "Is water dry?" when I can say "Water is NOT dry." When you know something you don't ask just to prevent someones feelings from being hurt. That is on them, not you.

Granted..

No doubt about your example. But if you are saying the statement "there is no dry water" is as equally factual as the statement "no one we label as a 'founding father' was a Christian", well then, my statement still applies. People and their inner presuppositions are not so nearly open to you as your swimming pool. Furthermore, the very definition of 'dry' carries the idea of an absence of liquid water. Thus, the statement about water is nothing more than a tautology.

Is the statement 'no founding father was Christian' a tautology?

You are a hoot!

Deism is unifying not divisive

God but without the trappings of religion. The Founders were opposed to central planning and central control. They saw both the state and organized revealed religion (often working together)to oppress man. But most of them believed social religion was a good thing, if not a necessary thing to give men a vehicle for forging a civil society. Without belief in a higher order or higher power, men would be left to themselves to fight among resources for survival. The Founders believed virtue was supported by a belief in God, which checked man's narcissism. Washington went so far as to say that he believed it was essential for man to believe in an afterlife in order to enable a civil society.

Paine was very vocal about this in The Age of Reason. Washington, Jefferson, and Adams had similar beliefs but they cautioned Paine to be careful in how boldly he made these claims because he was challenging powerful contemporary norms. Paine pushed ahead and he paid a heavy price. Many in the contemporary Deism community are picking up Paine's legacy.

Deism is divisive.

It divides Christians and other non-Deists from Deists.

Charles Jackson
http://MathIsChristian.wordpress.com Also, read Ron Paul's original staff economist Gary North at http://teapartyeconomist.com/

SteveMT's picture

Deism is as divisive as Ron Paul is divisive.

It depends how you look at Deism. Deists believe in one God and no other. Is that divisive? Many religions say the same thing. Alternatively, Deism is unifying and agrees with many other religions. From that point on they diverge, very similar to the unifying message of Ron Paul, Liberty, and the Constitution. On the fundamentals we agree. The rest is secondary.