Are You Discrediting and Hurting the Liberty Movement?
Submitted by Tumn1s on Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:29What has happened to this site? This is the Daily PAUL. I've been an active member of the site for a little over a year now and contribute articles when doing so actually HELPS the liberty movement grow. As of late, every time I come to this site it's full of posts about the latest conspiracy theory like the "Sandy Hook Hoax" or some moronic legal post by a "Sovereign Citizen" claiming to be the supreme authority on the law. What's next, neo-nazi skinheads singing the praises of Hitler... ooh yeah, they already posted their video about how Hitler was right during world war II last month. Bottom line: These people are making us all look nuts and hurting the liberty movement.
The Daily Paul is probably the highest trafficked liberty website on the internet... whether you want it or not, that comes with the responsibility of helping grow our movement. I'm not one for censorship... but perhaps the front page could be geared more towards liberty politicians, legislation, TV appearances, etc. At least then we would have a concise message. I'm almost embarrassed to admit to other liberty friends that I frequent this site. I'd like to continue visiting the Daily Paul. I have no interest in giving traffic to the "Daily Conspiracy" to read about Bilderberg, Chemtrails, Reptilians, Sovereigns, Sandy Hook etc... that's what Infowars is for. Bear in mind, I'm not speaking to the facts of any certain conspiracy theory... some do end up being true. I'm just stating the obvious that talking about them is not how you sell the movement to the average joe. If you want to sell the liberty movement to people, talk about liberty issues like ending the wars, shrinking government, the NDAA, Patriot Act, Debt, Federal Reserve, etc etc.. what is so hard to grasp about this?
If you ask the average person what's bad about the liberty movement, they'll usually say 2 things... 1. Foreign Policy and 2. Conspiracy Theories. Since our foreign policy is slowly winning people over... conspiracies are our largest weakness that can be exploited by people looking to hurt the movement. Strangely enough, the CIA and FBI actually hire internet trolls to do just that. It wouldn't surprise me if the GOP was doing it too. I mean, all they have to do is come on here and continually post things that make us look crazy to the average joe and all of a sudden "Poof!" the movement is marginalized and ineffective on the internet, the place where it started and is strongest. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who come on here and post all this conspiracy garbage actually work for the government and are purposely trying to hurt the movement. How's that for a conspiracy?
According to Lynnae Williams, former CIA clandestine service trainee and DIA analyst, the FBI and CIA use trolls to monitor social media and interact with users to discredit information disseminated on the web. Williams explains that the CIA provides training videos to new recruits on how to troll the internet.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6f2_1355313666
Seriously, how the hell am I supposed to tell a friend or family member who's interested in liberty to come to this site for liberty news when they'll just think I'm insane if they actually read what's posted here? It's disgraceful.
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There are loads of different
There are loads of different types of 'trolls' who frequent websites and forums similar to this one to discredit or divide movements like this one. It's not just government agencies doing that; it's the government's corporate welfare queens like Monsanto, war contractors and others who hire their own trolls with our money.
It's good to look inward at how we effect the liberty movement..
But doing so will be down voted. Plus every supportive comment to it.
Of course this site is infiltrated. Easily. Politics is a pretty evil game, and people will do evil things (lie/troll/play act/offend/overwhelm) for scraps of money these days. You have to feel bad for those guys/gals who will do that. What their lives must have come down to. Throwing away morals and what not for survival. Just look at all those bank foreclosure people who get paid to sign fake names on documents all day.
If trolls genuinely want to get rid of the normal logical thinkers on here what is the best strategy against them?
Stick around! Keep posting rational posts and forget about the up and down vote system. If that gets you down (I mean watch this post get down voted) then you are easily offended. That's how you lose, the trolls win. Oh, and if someone replies to your post and tries to get you riled up. Ignore the bait.
Do some
establishment Republicans hurt their party? Do some members of the clergy hurt and discredit their religion? Yes.
There's always someone in every movement or established entity that hurt and discredit it to some degree. I assume you're a liberty-minded person for joining and contributing to this site for over a year.
Most Liberty people are 'awake' and hip to The Great Lie. Liberty people are the most curious truth-seekers ever. We question authority, and what we're told to believe by a known corrupt government-controlled media always/all ways.
From tragedies ala Sandy Hook and 9/11 to UFO's, chemtrails and Bigfoot. Deal with it.
I, for one, am thankful there are at least a few people actually questioning and analyzing *Anything* anymore!
I'm proud of the Liberty Movement, warts and all.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign: that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. ~J. Swift
Your Grievances
Seem like they would be more deeply acknowledged if you were to address Michael directly. As far as topics of discussion go, there are different forums and designated spots for stuff to go. If the front page is your issue, then request M.N. and/or the mods to better police the streets if you will.
Now for the rest of your post, I'll say this. We have voluntarily become members of this online community. You have a right to say what you will, as do I and the rest of the folks here. If you're concerned about what others may think about it here, then it makes sense not to refer them here. Or if you don't really give a shit what people think and choose to associate with all sorts, then screw it, tell them (or not) and let them make up their own minds. If they choose to stop associating with you, that's on them--you did nothing to them.
Concerning conspiracies, just crack me and call me a nut. However, I consider myself a skeptic in all things, and I make an effort to look at things from as many perspectives as I can find. That being said, I do not enjoy Alex Jones as a broadcaster, trust him as an investigator or believe him as a truthseeker. If someone else doesn't agree, that's fine; I won't bite their head off. I received a buncha downvotes for giving my opinion of him in another thread, but not one person replied to my comment. I don't mind the disagreement, but please, at least have the courtesy of sharing why. That like/dislike button is pretty cheap to me.
Lastly, the conspiracy thing is here to stay man. After all, a lot of us were turned on to all this in the first place after discovering YouTube vids. That's how came across Ron Paul 6+ years ago and the Daily Paul shortly thereafter. This place may not always seem like what it once was, but I sho nuff dig it.
"The rich man writes the book of laws the poor man must defend, but the highest laws are written on the hearts of honest men."
Ron Paul...
has made many JBS (birch society) videos warning of the new world order, the UN plan to kill the US Constitution, etc..
And Ron Paul made his first appearances on Alex Jones' show back in the mid-90's routinely discussing said conspiracies.
We are conspiracy watchdogs. Eyes wide open and our noses to the wind. Maybe there are some false alarms but when it happens for reals it is us who barks first and begins the chase... :)
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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~
NO U!
!
Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com
"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard
I am hurting it apparently....
...the last thread I started was shut down...I am looking for similar treatment of other regulars.... http://www.dailypaul.com/269893/the-alex-jones-national-frea...
http://virtueandexcellence.com
You can't find...
a more tolerant political website owner/admin than Nystrom. Perhaps you need to examine your own behavior?
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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~
please....
....expand....
I'd like to hear how my "behavior" exhibited in, say...my last 30 posts are....inconsistent, not welcome, incoherent, intolerant, overly divisive or harmful repetitive dribble in that it drew the attention and decisive action of the owner himself.
Dozens of pro-AJ, pro-Jesse Ventura, pro-Adam Kokesh threads started this very election season; and boatloads of comments for/against in the spirit of free speech/expression on this forum....yet somehow, I drew the PUBLIC ire of him....because my behavior was "out of line"?
Yeah, I slept on it....but....seeing the same old debate still raging on in dozens of threads, why can't I keep debating this in my own thread? Executive Decision, I guess. I can deal, I have other battles I can fight with my writing hobby.
http://virtueandexcellence.com
AJ haters...
took the opportunity to begin creating a non-ending string of "On no! The Liberty movement is doomed! Alex Jones is CIA/COINTELPRO/JESUIT/JEW-HATING ZIONIST/REPTILIAN that is going to eat our brains and instantly bring on global communism and ALL KITTENS AND PUPPIES WILL DIE NEXT TUESDAY" forum posts.
Nystrom just decided there had been enough of that for right now. He specifically mentioned you beating the "AJ is Satan himself" dead horse. He didn't indicate anything about your past commentary.
You do seem to be a bit elitist in some of your past comments. Like how you are so much superior to the Constitution Party people and destroying people with your advanced knowledge of scripture and the like. But I guess that is kind of mild compared to some other folks around here. :p
Again, Nystrom just wanted the AJ-hate to go away for a while. Nothing personal.
Also, you do realize that:
1) Ron Paul has been going on AJ,s show since the mid-90's.
2) Ron and AJ are personal and family friends
3) AJ pretty much got Ron Paul's 2008 campaign off the ground and was one of close circle of people that convinced Ron to run. Without AJ most people would most likely not even know who Ron Paul is and the Daily Paul might not even exist...
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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~
if Ron Paul is that much...
...pro-Alex Jones; then this whole movement and two campaigns have been nothing but a steam valve...
Ron is a statesman, and he was doing his own thing for our nation's benefit....legislatively....in the halls of government....as best he could...the John Birch Society warnings are legit, but not campaign issues nor qualifying platforms for candidates who NEED to replace RINO's in agreement with Larry Pratt, Judge Napolitano, Tom Woods, Peter Schiff, and others who have not only demonstrated how self-control lends great credibility to one's liberty/fiscal conservative positions; but also, so does INCLUSION of patriots giving you a fair shake, yet enjoying the same "success" of drawing interest(fan base), especially if they're perhaps more persuasive, or even BETTER at showing how the founding faith of our nation and the moral absolutes that our founders lauded and wanted thrust upon the little children were "indispensable supports"; moreso than yelling "my life has value *EXPLETIVE*" at the New World Order.
I'm done buying into fear; hypocritical lying politicians and statists need to be removed from power and place by both the rule of law and the ballot box....and....if the parent government tyranny is that LARGE a foe, armed to the hilt, ready to kill it's enemies without reason or remedy because they are Satan's tool....then....they didn't gain power by ACCIDENT, and this movement needs the Creator's Divine Intervention in throwing it off again; not this media spectacle which is an embarrassment.
http://virtueandexcellence.com
I like
this website the way it is. It has a lot of good things on it and I don't mind skimming through stuff to find information and ideas I find useful. If the open platform disappears, I think the web sight will suffer. Just saying.
I feel your pain, but I've
I feel your pain, but I've resigned myself to the fact that forums like this are honeypots to the crazies, and not much can be done about that without enforcing what will inevitably be a lot of arbitrary and inappropriate rules. Those people can't get anyone to listen to them in real life, so they go searching the internet for places to get an audience, and here they found it. They aren't interested in posting similar ideas to other people. They like to come up with original ideas so far out that nobody has ever written them before, or find the most far out blog post or article somewhere to link to and defend. It's a sickness. It's really very few people, but they are the most vocal online.
The solution is to have more events in real life. People who don't fit in with the rest of the group will lose their voice and won't be able to constantly interject into every discussion for long.
Couldn't have said it any better myself
Great post. I feel very much the same way as the author. I'm not from the USA but being a pasionate libertarian I followed Ron Paul with great enthusiasm and visited this site daily for more than a year. I even had a subscription at a time because I wanted to support the cause and pay for what I used so to speak.
I guess my tipping point was during the wave of Ahmadinnejad praising and accompanied jew-bashing that went on somewhere around august-september. The Ahmadinnejad praising was just a spit in the face of everything the liberty movement stand for and those in Iran that are fighting against their government.
Considering the gigantic overrepresentation of jews in the libertarian intellectual sphere it just seems really strange and also goes against libertarian principles of individualism. I mean how can you be on a site dedicated to Ron Paul, bashing jews and watching videos of Ron paul sitting in front of his bookshelf full of books written by jews. It just doesn't compute. And its also pretty unlibertarian.
The worst part was probably that bringing these points up resulted in massive downvoting. Just like this post has.
Apart from that I've seen a bunch of posts about guns, chemtrails, socialism here and communism there, evil police officers, organic food and even crop circles (!). What does crop circles have to do with libertarianism? Nothing!
We libertarians need to engage in civil intellectual discussion, not rampant conspiracy craziness. It doesn't matter if the theory is correct or not. It is not libertarian political philosophy, it is not economics, it is not a policy issue and it doesn't belong here.
That this post you wrote netted 31 downvotes is proof of the very sad fact that this site is no longer about libertarianism and Ron Paul.
We need a clean up here, this site is private property so don't come dragging any censorship arguments. This site needs a forum with free discussion but designated subjects. Conspiracy theories not being one of them. The blog style of the front page need to be reserved for qualitative articles that are on for longer than 2-3 hours. One new article a day, 7 articles on the front page at any given time makes for a nice front page. Articles on the front page can consist of selected well-written forum posts or submitted content that is REVIEWED before it is posted.
Net downvotes
Exhibit A.
Irrational Nonsense.
The "liberty" movement needs all kinds -- academics, ranters, political advocates, artists, etc. There is a need for Alex Jones just as much as there is for Ludwig von Mises. We need our Aimee Allen's as well as our Joseph Salerno's and Jesse Ventura's.
Why is it the loathsome creeps, criminals and conspirators never seem to hurt the collectivist movement? . . . . The only thing anyone can do to hurt the liberty movement is to not join it.
_____________________________
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels
Alex Jones
Proved my point last night. If you think he helped us... you're part of the problem.
YEAH
we needed someone who would have gone on there and been civilized because he just made us all look nuts....
sure he did...
We all need to act a certain way, dress a certain way and speak a certain way so we can be "liked".
pretty sad if you ask me tumn1s
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All need to act a certain way ? no, you know better than that.
But there are certain limits for reasonable behavior - Would it have been aceptable for Alex Jones to spit on his interviewer ? no. Using profanity ? No, act like a loud mouth buffoon, NO.
So why do you think the lefties at Huffpo even gave him the time of day ? So they could ridicule him.
But here on the DP, the Jonestown Koolaid drinkers think he is just wonderful. Like I sad before, if he took a crap on stage, you guys would say it smelled sweet.
It's reality
Ben Swann, Andrew Napolitano, Tom Woods... any of them would have done better than Alex Jones. It's all about style... Jones looked INSANE.
You're in denial, son...
They are coming for our only defense against them. It's time for American men to be manly again. Maybe YOU are the problem.
They are really really really serious about taking our guns and conversation over the issue is becoming a waste of time. You just don't want to think about it. Real men don't hide behind normalcy bias...
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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~
Well,,,
when they knock on your door and demand your guns be sure and be polite and drop to your knees with a smile and say "Am I licking your boots good enough, Master?"
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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~
comparision
Go read RonPaulForums.com and then compare it to the DailyPaul.
Which one is more effective for promoting the Liberty Movement?
I would never refer anyone to the DailyPaul. It might serve a purpose of entertaining us with fanatical and wild posts, but it doesn't help the Liberty Movement at all.
I actually
really didn't go on Ron Paul forums, besides looking up some points like the EPA/FDA, how is it there?
"Truth is Treason in an Empire that lies" - Ron Paul
Educate the masses, and win in the end.
Missing the point
Everyone coming on here to defend conspiracy theories is missing the point completely... It's not that they make me uncomfortable. Some conspiracies theories are actually true or at least have elements of truth to them...
Many of you say that the wars and fed are a conspiracy... I don't see it that way because they're actually talked about in the mainstream media... so average people know about them. People don't know about the bilderbergs, chemtrails, etc... so they think it's extreme. Predictably, I've been bashed and maligned by people who don't understand how to grow this movement or what the point of my post was. I'm not worried about it, you'll remain ineffective and after we've conquered the GOP without you, you'll have the same voice in national politics that you have now.... none.
What you said is why it needs to be talked about.
It used to be extreme to talk about the Federal Reserve. Now it's something people are talking about.
9/11? More people are figuring that out every day. And when they do, they will be energized. I was. Eventually that too will be talked about. We're doing it here, see? I want the extreme to become mainstrea.
I'm as interested in breadth as depth. The breadth of these issues: vaccines, chemtrails!, OKC, mass shootings, etc. go back to a common point. That's the breadth. The depth is being able to connect dots that far.
So, with the Federal Reserve issue as my known quantity, I'm going to push for the other issues to follow suit. First they laugh at you...
Ouch...
I think i will go cry now. You hurt my feewingz. :*(
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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~
After following the Ron Paul campaign
how can you trust the Governement, MSN, or anyone in Politics to do the right thing?
They point us in that direction with their lies and deceptions and we naturally keep going.
You're either a paid shill
or not very liberty-minded yourself. Those who support liberty do not call for topics they don't "approve" of to be censored. That's what fascists do.
If you really believe your friends/family will be turned off by the "conspiracy talk", then just don't send them here. Simple enough. There are plenty of other liberty sites you can direct them to.
Off the top of my head:
www.mises.org
www.tomwoods.com
www.reason.com
www.LibertarianStandard.com
All are good, educational sites that avoid "conspiracy theories". Why not suggest that your friends give those a look?
People complain all the time
People complain all the time about topics I choose to talk about on this website, particularly when it goes against the mainstream thinking around these parts.
A recent example: I made a case for why Pierce Morgan should not be deported. Interestingly, I was told that for doing so I didn't support liberty and that the topic should be shut down.
Another example is when I defended the EITC as the least worst form of welfare.