20 votes

I believe the strength of the Liberty movement is in Christ

Highly recommend this incredible series:


Would sure love some more of you guys to wake up to the fact that what is happening in this world is a spiritual war between God and Satan.

The Liberty movement will only prevail when it is backed by Christ, who is in fact its author. Without Christ libertarianism is vague and weak, witness the performance of Gary Johnson's God-free campaign.

With Christ, we cannot fail.

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I wouldn't be upset....

....if you were right! However, in defense of my views, just because I'm atheist doesn't mean my views end in doom. In my opion, everything ends, simply so that we may appreciate that it existed at all. Eternity would be doom to me.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

Eternity could be...

doom or not. If it was just static eternity, I could see that being a doom of sorts. But if it's a neverending journey, with new surprises and discoveries always around the bend (which I believe), then that will be exhilirating.

In the meantime, am happy to have you as an ally for Liberty here and now. :)

As Christians we need to understand

That the freedom of Christ is the only eternal freedom.

There will come a time when no matter how hard we try, evil and tyranny will prevail for a short while here in this existence.

Our victory is in Christ. That victory is not the same as the freedom we seek in this movement, via the Constitution, etc.

I discuss further at:

::::post plug::::


"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."

Ron Paul speaks for himself here.

See the highlights and summary lines listed here.


The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
And those who have not heard shall understand.

ytc's picture

RonPaul has a chapter on "Religion and Liberty" in his

"Liberty Defined" book (pp.242)

My favorite part is his list of
"Love... in the World's Great Religions" (p. 245),
"The Golden Rule... According to the World'sGreat Religions" (p. 246) and
"Peace in the World's Great Religions" (p. 247).

** I think the strength of our Liberty movement depends on the tenacity of individual commitments to Love, The Golden Rule and Peace :-)


I believe in quantum physics, you call it whatever makes you happy. Did you know they have found the "God Particle"?


You should know that the

You should know that the original nickname was not the "God Particle", it was a curse considered unprintable for the cover of science publications.

Please Explain

what the heck does that mean? Are you saying they just called it that in private so as not to freak out the public? If science has found a quantum particle that is the essence of "God" then we should be taught about it. Are you saying that the public is basically too brainwashed by religion to be able to accept and comprehend that there is something a whole lot stranger and amazing out there than what we've been told in Sunday school? If so then I guess you are quite right. I would be willing to bet that most "Christians" are afraid to even research other ideas for fear of going to Hell. How brainwashed is THAT?


The original name was the

The original name was the "Goddamn Particle" because it was so difficult to find.


I grew up christian. I went to church a few times a week for years. I didnt even have a beer on my 21st birthday. I read the bible cover to cover more than once and researched the old geography, the kings, the culture etc. for years. The more i learned things in the bible made more sense, but other things made less sense... like the council of Nicaea for example. There is a focus on giving yourself up. It teaches you to be a servant quite literally. Have you watched zeitgeist? Curious to know what your thoughts are regarding the roots of Christianity coming from Egyptian sun worship?

It seems to me organised religion has been a tool used by men to make the populous non aggressive, passive, pliable, and easily manipulated. It also seems to help people like g. W. Bush get elected. I remember my church pushing for him in 2000. The congregation didn't even question it. After all he was a christian right?

- Grow Mushrooms at Home

Guys I urge you to watch the series linked to this post.

It explains a lot of this. I think the issue of people claiming to be Christian and how to recognize them for what they are comes down to this:

The difference between what people say and what they do.

Of course all kinds of evil forces on earth want to co-opt the power of God's truth to increase their own earthly power. They will say they are serving God. As with George W. Bush, etc. What we have to look at then is not what they say but what they do.

Those who do evil, who act against God's teachings laid out in the Ten Commandments and the New Testament, are not of God. Those who knowingly do this in secret in an attempt to deceive others, in fact serve satan. Those who do not, but ernestly do their best to abide by those teachings, they are the Christians. As you have pointed out, those true Christians are in a minority these days, but they do exist.

If we abide by those teachings, and give God all the glory, not ourselves, he will bless our endeavours. Including the blessing of earthly Liberty, which comes from God anyway.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

How interesting

You might want to look into the mormon faith. It might answer some of your questions ^_~ Yes, Mormons are Christian, but it's very distinct from the Catholic and Protestant faiths.

Here are my thoughts, as a Mormon:

Whenever God's true church was on the earth, He had a prophet on it. This same church, this same priesthood, was on the earth since Adam.

However, the church that Christ established during the time of the 12 Apostles apostatized. There were no more prophets, no more true priesthood authority. Since then, men had relied on only a part of the gospel (namely what they had in the Bible) and the intellectual reasonings of men who didn't have the true priesthood or direction from God.

For example, the council of Nicaea was man's best attempt to figure out the nature of God and His will, using only a handful of books that had survived since Christ's time that they decided to keep, combined it with their knowledge of pagan wisdom. I do believe they did their best, but by then a lot of precious truths had been lost, there had not been a prophet (that we know of) for about 400 years (I might be wrong on the timeline. I never was good with numbers), and they had a lot of pagan background influencing how they thought and understood the world.

(I hope you're not offended. This is quite possibly why so many christians hate mormons: if the LDS faith is right and true, than their own faith cannot be. If the Apostasy that the scriptures warned about had already happened, are they actually following the true Christ? To these people I say: thank you and your faiths for preserving the truths you had. The world needed the Bible, and needed traditions that emphasized faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and I know that all Christians in the past who had done their best with the knowledge they had will be rewarded. God is fair and just. Even though the Apostasy happened, it is thanks to those who truly believed in Christ for all of these centuries and were willing to live and die for Him that allowed the gospel to be restored. That may be a bit selfish of me, but I respect your faith, and I feel that you are a friend and an ally, whether you accept my beliefs or not.)

As for the Egyptian sun worship, the same truth explains this to me: if God's gospel was on the earth since the beginning, than surely the Egyptians either once had it or knew enough of it to incorporate some of it into their own religion. So it isn't that Christianity is based on Egyptian sun worship: the Egyptian sun worship was based on Christianity.

If Christ himself organized a church while he was here on the earth, organized religion itself is not the problem. I see religions of all kind as a tool for bringing people to Christ and better their earthly and spiritual lives (or, in the case of non-Christian religions, as a means to introduce some truths into their lives, such as the importance of peace and medication, and understanding that all things have their opposites), though I also fully support anyone who studies their scriptures and does their best to live the gospel that they see on their own, recognizing that too many organized religions preach false doctrine. The problem is when the religious leaders, who do not having the real authority to speak for God, preach something that either contradicts the gospel truths (such as preaching for war) or on matters that they don't have the right to speak on (such as assuming that God supports one political party or person over another). The example you gave is a perfect example.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

Rome and most protestant churches do not recognize the mormon

baptism. In other words, if one were Episcapalian and "converted" to be Catholic, the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the Episcopalian baptism (and vice versa) as Christian and one would not need to be baptized again.

If you are Mormon and "convert" to be Catholic (or Episcopalian) those church's would require you to get baptized as a Christian in order to be a recognized member of their church.

Right or wrong, I don't care to discuss, but them's the plain facts.

And this is probably a topic for a different thread. :) Sorry.

It's all good

I'm not offended. If that's how they do things, I'm fine with it.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

Spoken like a true libertarian! +1


They are worshiping the Golden Calf.

This is why GOD hates false worship. Christianity has so much false doctrine to the point that none of their worship gives glory to GOD. They keep pagan holidays that gives glory to false gods. They do exactly what the Israelites did after they left Egypt, they worship the golden calf. When you understand what actually happened with the golden calf then the apostasy of "the church" is clear.

The Israelites didn't make a calf and worship the calf as a replacement god but they made the calf as a symbol of GOD Himself. Exodus 32:5 "Tomorrow is a feast to (the LORD) Yahwh." Christians do the same thing when they keep Sunday as the weekly sabbath, observe Easter with their sunrise service and the other obviously pagan rituals, or Christmas. They do these things and claim it is for the LORD.

Is it any wonder people think that Christianity evolved from pagan sun worship or other pagan ritual? How we worship determines who we worship.


No offense, but I hope you won't be misled by the Zeitgeist films. The first time I watched it, there was a part where the film maker was trying to prove a connection between Jesus and the Sun by suggesting "God's Sun = God's Son", however since I watched it again, this was removed.

The Hebrew word for Sun is "השמש" and the Hebrew word for Son is "בן". Hence, no relation. Although they may sound similar in common English today, the word for Son was "Sunu" and the word for Sun was "Sunne", so this is why they may sound similar now, but they are completely different words. Absolutely no relation.

This conclusion is obviously trying to bring the viewer to a final point. After the film maker has proven to you that all of the religions have stolen from each other, chiefly Christianity, he then goes on to lead you to the conclusion that religions are evil and support all these horrible things.

While it's true religion can be bad, it can also be good for some people. If religion was created to control people and their opinions, then how can one view a film which is full of absolutely false statements about mythology, religious history, Judaism, and Christianity itself?

I recommend you peruse this website at your convenience, and draw your own conclusions: http://www.kingdavid8.com

What complete fucking bullshit

The strenght of the liberty movement lies in the idea of liberty, obviously. Christians have throughout history not been very liberty minded and a lot of totalitarianism has been carried out in the name of god,jesus and mother mary. You can say what you want, that those weren't "real" christians. If you said it to their face at that time, you would have been tortured and then burnt at a stake.

The strenght of liberty is that you can believe what you want. You can believe in talking snakes, ghost stories, santa claus or jesus all you want. I don't have too though.

You are completely deluded if you think the foundation of libertarianism lies in the bible and christ. Read the bible, it's full of lunacy and crazy old stories that no one believes in. It is full of rotten morality. It is also full of nice stories with good morality. You know this, but how do you know which moral codes from the bible to follow and which to dismiss as 2000 year old crazy stuff? Answer: because you have a morality, you have a mind and the ability to judge right from wrong without the bible.

Evil always hides behind a shield that represents what's good.

Evil always hides behind a shield that represents what's good. The shield isn't what's evil. The man hiding behind it is.

Will liberty be the next shield evil men hide behind?

Politicians hide behind children too, but that doesn't make children evil? Don't try and dismiss that simple reality. They weren't Christians. They were evil men seeking dominion while hiding behind something good.

Also complete crap

They most certainly where christians. Evil christians. Some of them might not have wholeheartedly agreed with christianity and might have used it for their own benefit, I'm sure that was pretty common. But that really doesn't matter.

The point is that christianity does not equate to libertarianism in any way at all. It is absolutely possible to have a christian society that is not libertarian and in fact throughout history most christian societies have been totalitarian. Thus the foundation of libertarianism can hardly be christianity.

There is room for good christians in a libertarian society just like there is room for good atheists, jews or hindus that don't violate the NAP. That is the strenght of liberty.

I agree that core values are

I agree that core values are important, but knowledge is the true strength of the movement. Knowledge is what open our eyes to the evil ways. Values are what lets us determine that those ways used are evil.

Go Patriots!!!

Knowledge is the currency of the Universe.-
Giorgio A. Tsoukalos

Well said

Well said

- Grow Mushrooms at Home

Are you sure you meant to

Are you sure you meant to post here and not on Glen Beck's web site?



Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Then please reconsider.

I truly believe...

Christianity is the fortress within which Liberty shall survive and prevail. I say this not to be willfully exclusive or divisive but because I honestly worry that without this rock our brothers and sisters in Liberty will stand little chance against the onslaught of satan which is tyranny.

Don't your think it's interesting that Ron Paul's campaign has had such success as a libertarian campaign, compared to so many others? I believe the difference is his humble, blessed, righteous and steadfast adherence to Jesus Christ as his personal savior.

I know many of you find it annoying for people to keep bringing up faith in the Liberty movement. We do it because we believe we need it, to win! And with it, we will.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

he lives his beliefs

I think he has success because he lives his beliefs but does not wear them on his sleeve. So yes he is a libertarian, conservative Christian but it doesn't prevent him from working with socialist, liberal, secularists on particular issues. Also it seems to me that when religion gets mixed with either politics or other worldly things it gets corrupted. That is why the televangelists are such a joke; I think they are anti-witnesses.


Ron Paul's religeous beliefs

Ron Paul's religeous beliefs have nothing to do with why I like him... unless you count the fact that he doesn't try to push them on me with stupid threads like this one.

i disagree

No but you like him because you agree with his policies and philosophy and thinks he is an honorable person who won't let you down. These things all come from us from our deepest beliefs about what we think is true.


I have identical political

I have identical political belief's to him, but im not Christian. Therefore I am quite aware that it is perfectly possible to arrive at this place without "faith."

Im glad he's Christian or whatever, just like im glad you are if you are. If it helps you be a better person, more power to you. Not for me however, and its certainly at the center of the liberty movement.