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I believe the strength of the Liberty movement is in Christ

Highly recommend this incredible series:


Would sure love some more of you guys to wake up to the fact that what is happening in this world is a spiritual war between God and Satan.

The Liberty movement will only prevail when it is backed by Christ, who is in fact its author. Without Christ libertarianism is vague and weak, witness the performance of Gary Johnson's God-free campaign.

With Christ, we cannot fail.

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Um hello.

That was the founding father's very point, that people should be free to worship as they choose.

Let that sink in. That the main driver for the Independence movement was freedom from the Church of England and NOT economic drivers.


...there is truth to what you say in our attitudes toward other faiths, etc. But what if there really is a deeper spiritual dimension and reality to the struggle of good vs evil (i.e. liberty vs tyranny)? If this is true, then you won't fully grasp the cause and outcome of the struggle until you go down that rabbit hole. Yes, we in Liberty should not force others to acknowledge the reality we see, but this does not mean it isn't real. I believe these inner layers of the onion will become evident to everyone in time.

Libertarians Accept Christians, Worts and All

Of course there is a deeper spiritual dimension to the struggle of good vs evil (liberty vs tyranny). Why would you think the only people that get it are Christians? The idea that a movement could accept and benefit all people of all backgrounds and ways of life, of all beliefs, of all classes, all cultures, all religions, all previous political alignments, etc., is an enormously spiritual revolution that inherently recognizes all forms of good vs evil. The potential for deeper spiritual dimension is in the message of whole-hearted acceptance of everyone's spiritual beliefs as absolutely perfect. Let's move on from the battle between the parties and the battle to convert souls to another's dogma.

I do not think that Christians...

...are the only ones who get that there is a spiritual layer to the struggle; but I do know that there are plenty of non-theists who would disagree with that and also plenty of non-Christians who would disagree with the Christian's view on the ultimate cause and solution for the struggle. If someone truly believes that Christ is the way, the truth and the life, and that it is through Him that all things will eventually be reconciled, it would be kind of strange to never mention that belief to others or to never try to explain how that relates to the problems in the world. It's another matter entirely to try to force such views on other people, which is where functional Liberty comes in. I don't think people should be offended if a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist tries to tell others about how they see the inner layers of the onion. I would be more offended if these people thought they had a deeper sense of truth but were too indifferent or apathetic to want to share it.

Nothing about faith in Christ

Nothing about faith in Christ involves coersion of belief. The essence of Christianity is that of voluntarily submission. Christians are not to force their beliefs on others but rather to teach others and show love so that others will use their free choice to choose God.

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

Jesus Christ. Look up hell in

Jesus Christ.

Look up hell in a dictionary, then look up coersion.

The Post Threatens Failure of the Liberty Movement

Nothing about faith should involve coercion of belief, but this post is coercively threatening with failure to succeed unless the liberty movement gets right with Jesus. Christians are drone bombing Muslim children as we speak. Christ was more of a Buddhist than the form of Christianity we often witness today. I appreciate your view of what Christianity SHOULD be like, and am sure you practice as such and respect everyone's right to their beliefs.

Not true

It is not in my nor any other Christians' hands to cause success or failure, but in the hands of God. So it is untrue to see in it a threat from us. It is about where we believe success and failure come from, and an attempt to communicate that with others, for the success of Liberty.

Also please see other posts about the difference between peoples' speech and actions. Their actions not their speech or claims are the measure of whether or not they are Christians.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.


I realize there are many here who do equate the movement with a spiritual awakening, as I believe Will honestly does. Sometimes, however, there are others who post things so randomly that it seems more like trolling than adding to the discussion. I don't know if it's an evangelistic effort or if it's simply there to get a rise out of folks. I don't mind a topic like this one being posted in the forum for educational or debate purposes, but seeing a one liner to the effect of, "God will take care of it in the end," doesn't add any real value in my opinion. If you believe man was created to be unique, doesn't it seem logical to believe man was given a brain to think for himself? Should one not be free to use his mental capacity to figure stuff out?

"The rich man writes the book of laws the poor man must defend, but the highest laws are written on the hearts of honest men."

Political Liberty, Ontological Liberty.

In order to protect the search for Truth and Ontological Liberty it is necessary to have Political Liberty.

It is best to separate these two concepts which is what I believe the founding fathers did. They came from a Europe riven by religious conflict and wished to promote the idea of seeking virtue and moral excellence while recognising that every individual had an unalienable right to do so in their own way. It was agreed by them I believe that the various Christian religions generally taught that the innate moral nature of Man was the image of God in Man and should be developed along the lines laid down in the Bible. This was the level of agreement they had I believe and why they sought to create a political environment that would protect the right of individuals to seek the Truth in their own way... the pursuit of happiness.

They also had abundant experience of the tendency of the State to interfere in the practice of religions and to dictate the very nature of every individual's relationship with God. They therefore included in the Bill of Rights the provision that the Congress could not make any laws to establish any one religion. This was left to the States and I believe some did indeed prefer one religion over another although may not have taken the step of actually establishing one.

The reality is that the State and religion have always had an incestuous relationship since religion is seen by the politically powerful as a useful means whereby to control the people. It was inevitable therefore that this tendency should develop in the United States just as it has done throughout history in every other society. What has happened however in the past one hundred and fifty years or so is the growth of secular religion in which God has played an increasingly smaller part giving way to church organisations that give lip service to God but are the exclusive province of men. This has also been the time of the development of the great socialistic ideologies that either give lip service to God, having grown out of social gospel Christianity, or deny Him completely. These developments have resulted in the very situation that the Bill of Rights was designed to avoid, the marriage of religion and the State at the centre of political life.

The path to be taken to restore the Republic and reinstate the Bill of Rights with a proper allocation of powers between the Federal government, State governments and the People has been mapped out very clearly by Ron Paul. It is this path to Political Liberty that everyone who is a Constitutional libertarian should be able to agree on. It is certain that everyone will disagree on questions of Ontological Liberty which is why it is necessary to have Political Liberty. On questions of Ontological Liberty there ought to be free and open discussion and debate that recognises the right to express one's beliefs and present arguments and evidence to support them.

Since there are powers that oppose such freedom the political struggle is a hard one but it may help to separate the concepts of Liberty in the way I have suggested in order to better focus everyone's energies on winning the war for Political Liberty. That there is a nexus connecting these two forms of Liberty cannot be gainsaid but until the victory for Political Liberty is won it best serves the cause of Liberty to recognise the importance of keeping the two forms separate. This does not preclude discussions of an Ontological nature since that is in my view the more important issue.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Makes no sense.

The puritans came here so they could WORSHIP FREELY.

The founding fathers came here to WORSHIP FREE FROM A STATE CHURCH.

Do you not understand that the very PURPOSE of political liberty throughout history and in the founding of this nation was fundamentally about WORSHIPPING FREELY even more than economic liberty?

Wow. Get back to the books, man!

That is what I have said.

You must have misunderstood my meaning. You said:

"Do you not understand that the very PURPOSE of political liberty throughout history and in the founding of this nation was fundamentally about WORSHIPPING FREELY even more than economic liberty?"

Yes. That is why I am advocating focusing on Political Liberty. It is something everyone can agree on. There are so many personal views on attaining Ontological Liberty there will always be strong disagreement on these issues. This is indeed why Jefferson insisted on the fundamental unalienable rights in the Declaration of Independence which are fleshed out in the Bill of Rights.

Read my comment again.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I dont disagree, but you are still missing the point.

The PRIMARY DRIVER for independence was the desire to worship freely.


Not to trade freely or other economic concerns.

The drive to WORSHIP was the main driver of the revolution. But to worship outside of the Church of England.

This historical fact is impossbile to ignore as you suggest we do.
WORSHIP is and has been the PRIMARY DRIVER for liberty and independence.

I know that's hard for atheists to process, but that is the historical fact and the simple truth is that the VAST MAJORITY of those in the Ron PAul liberty movement are, in fact, seeking the SAME THING.

Only a tiny minority, albeit a very vocal one, of Ron Paul supporters are atheists.

What is it in my comments that you take issue with?

It seems to me that you are simply repeating what I have said with perhaps a slightly different emphasis but we are fully in agreement so I am puzzled as to what has left you with the impression we are not.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I see now.

You kind of did. I'd say you mostly did. You're right. IT was just very long winded :)

I don't think what you wrote would be clear to many of our rash atheists around here. I think that's what I was reacting to (the atheists) and made an assumption about you that was not true.

I had to go back and reread whaty ou wrote. I guess I kind of wrote the terse summary of what you wrote.


My response to an earlier comment

Isaiah 33:22 "For the Lord is our judge; the Lord is our lawgiver; the Lord is our king; he will save us." = Judicial branch, Legislative Branch, Executive branch

"Where is his throne?"

Psalm 11:4 "The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man."

Psalm 103:19 "The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all."

Isaiah 66:1 "Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool"

Matthew 23:22 "And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it."

Hebrews 8:1 "Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven"

"Where does he hold court?"

Psalm 9:8 "and he judges the world with righteousness; he judges the peoples with uprightness."

Psalm 50:6 "The heavens declare his righteousness, for God himself is judge!"

Psalm 58:11 "Mankind will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely there is a God who judges on earth.”

Romans 2:3 "Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?"

II Timothy 4:1 "I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom..."

II Timothy 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

Hebrews 12:23 "to the assembly [the Church] of the firstborn [Jesus, firstborn from the dead] who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect"

Hebrews 13:4 "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous." (notice the complete absence of a "state" between God and mankinds' marriages)

James 4:12 "There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"

I Peter 2:23 "When [Jesus] was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly."

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."

"Where and how does he collect taxes?
God doesn't use force to extract wealth that he owns but gives us stewardship over. Christians seeking to act as God acts give freely to the poor and do not seek to steal from some in order to give to others. States only survive by taxation because states have no innate ability to produce anything of itself. God has no such limitations on production and has no need to extract our wealth. He commands us to give generously to others.

Where is it described/prescribed in the Bible Who is in power?

His Kingdom, his governance, his Lordship, etc is described throughout the Scriptures, a fraction of which I have listed here. God alone has power. He gives man stewardship over his earth (property - see Gen 1:28-30) and gives government stewardship over the administration of justice between men, and justice alone (Romans 13; Proverbs 29:4 "By justice a king builds up the land, but he who taxes heavily tears it down" - Proverbs 8:15,16 "By [wisdom] kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; by [wisdom] princes rule, and nobles, all who govern justly")

Where is his army and how are they equipped?

Every Christian is a soldier of God. We fight with love, correct ideas, persuasion, the Word of God because weapons of war does not create lasting change for the better.

Ephesians 6:13-17 "Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,"

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”"

II Corinthians 10:3-5 "For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,"

What does he do to put down rebellion?
People have been rebelling against him since Creation. His solution is to freely invite them back with mercy and forgiveness. Those who don't will be destroyed in the last day.

Daniel 9:9 "To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him"

II Corinthians 5:18,19 "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling[b] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." (reconciliation just means restored relationship)

Even those who rebel will eventually honor God as King on the last day
Romans 14:11 "for it is written,“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”"

God's patience will run out.
Romans 2:4,5 "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed."

What does he do to stop corruption?
He freely lets people choose to be wrong. Christians also must allow people to choose to be wrong. We can persuade and teach, but we cannot use force, even the force of a state.

Romans 1:28 "Since they did not see it worth it to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done."

Where are his treasures?
Matthew 6:20 "but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"

Please describe to me the features of this "Biblical theocracy"
I've described a lot of details of this theocracy, but in a nutshel: God rules whether or not people believe it. On the last day, everyone will believe it. Our submission to him is voluntary and from the heart. Christ is King and there is no one who will succeed him

Luke 1:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David" (The throne of David over ancient Israel is a common image of God's throne over New Israel, the Church.. aka The Kingdom of God. The only people who exist after the last day will be those citizens of New Israel)

Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom."

Hebrews 12:12 "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

And if we are in a "Biblical theocracy", why does it APPEAR that we are in a mercantilist oligarchy that's operating in the guise of a constitutional republic?
Because we live in a fallen world where people are evil.... Now is the time of God's patience. God's judgment will remove kingdoms of this world.

But even despite the world's rebellion, God judges in the hear and now as well as in the Last Day. The books of Isaish, Amos, as well as many others express how God judges nations. I believe economic law is a very real way that God judges people. When peoples try to take care of the poor by means of theft, more poverty is created. When currencies are based on fraud, they collapse. When nations seek strength by the sword, their militaries will fail.

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

Organized religion please go away and keep your

individual spiritual feelings to yourself. They are personal!

Every war in history has been a religious war. Until we stop bringing belief systems into the picture, we will always have ideological conflict.


Nonsense and hypocritacal.

"Organized religion please go away and keep your individual spiritual feelings to yourself. They are personal!"

You don't get to make organized religion disappear or declare faith something people shouldn't talk about.

"Every war in history has been a religious war."

People fight wars because they have a covetous nature and want dominion, plunder, and the value they can steal through violence. People want to pillage, rape, and steal. You don't need to even mention God to have a war. All you need to do is get people to want something that they don't have and tempt them to take it with violence. Hate, fear, religion, and claiming to be victims is just part of the smoke and mirrors. War is fought for dominion and to serve mans covetous nature.

"Until we stop bringing belief systems into the picture, we will always have ideological conflict."

Until people stop wanting what they don't have a right to, the conflict will never stop, and you don't have a right to make organized religion go away or tell people what they need to keep to themselves, so please, DON'T pretend you're above spiritual conflict when you're attacking religion trying to make it disappear. You have your own system of beliefs and clearly they oppose those you attack.

If you think peace will reign once we get rid of organized religion, you have no idea what you're talking about, but you HAVE chosen your side in the ideological conflict.

Obviously Missed the Point

The response was that organized religion doesn't belong in the liberty movement. You self-righteously misrepresented the opinion, "get rid of organized religion," as a means to deliver your emotional convictions about how you are more moral and know better. I for one don't have any patience for the egoic arrogance of those who wish to sell people on their religious/spiritual superiority. Respect all beliefs or you have no legitimacy in the liberty movement. Everyone has a right to be a part of the liberty movement regardless of their religious or spiritual beliefs. The idea that this cause will not succeed unless everyone gets right with God or Jesus is a looser's position to begin with. Wake up!

Interesting flow of ideas

I didn't miss any point. He made himself pretty clear, and so did you.

"The response was that organized religion doesn't belong in the liberty movement."

"Respect all beliefs or you have no legitimacy in the liberty movement."

Interesting flow of ideas there?

I thought I made myself perfectly clear; YOU DON'T GET TO MAKE PEOPLE OF FAITH GO AWAY OR KICK RELIGION OUT OF THE LIBERTY MOVEMENT. I didn't misrepresent anything, and all you're doing is reinforcing my earlier point and trying to kick out religion and silence people of faith. It's not going to happen. Understand!?

Sorry. You're going to have to find a way to allow people the right to their own faith, thoughts, motivations and religions.

I'm not forcing anything on you. You're trying to force something out of the Liberty movement. I don't need Atheist enemies, and I couldn't force faith on you even if I wanted to. You have free will.

You can be an Atheist Libertarian. GREAT! I WANT you to be one, but I'm just saying there are pitfalls waiting for you if you see yourself and everyone around you as a soulless animal, and then try to explain why you have a right to your liberty.

It's about WHY you have a right to be treated like a human being rather than an animal, rather than something here for me to prey on. You have a right to be treated as my equal.

You're "non-prey" in my book. Congratulations. I wonder if that goes the same for me in yours.

Still Don't Get It

Your comments are totally off-base. You did falsely claim the responder was saying that religion should be done away with. It was a means to distort the conversation to suit your agenda. The lack of truth in your posts demonstrates delusion and deception. That would be a prime example of why Christian fanaticism is not model for success in the liberty movement.

Here's the words you put in another's mouth to suit your distortion of the truth.

“You don't have a right to make organized religion go away or tell people what they need to keep to themselves. If you think peace will reign once we get rid of organized religion...” (FreedomsReigning).

The point that you miss is the interest is in not aligning the liberty movement with any particular faith; therefore, we respectfully request that the move to make the liberty cause a Christian cause be dismissed for it is a contradiction to the principles of liberty. If you can't get that, then you are quite lost in your delusion. No one is saying that religion should be gotten rid of. And, obviously it is counterproductive to assert that there are "pitfalls" to those not of your belief, or that people consider themselves soulless animals if they aren't Christians. How more completely obnoxiously ignorant could you be? Sorry, but your attacks on those who don't share your beliefs are disgustingly unChristlike.

You keep saying I don't understand, but I do.

"The point that you miss is the interest is in not aligning the liberty movement with any particular faith"

You don't get to remove faith or religion from the debate, and I'm not planting my flag, but isn't that exactly what you're trying to do, attempting to align the LM with Atheism? I'm sick of it in our Government and I'm sick of it in the LM.

You don't get to do it any more than me, and I'm not telling Atheists to go away or shut up about their belief system. I'm doing exactly the opposite. I WANT ATHEISTS TO BE LIBERTARIANS, and they're free to talk about their belief system. I want them to try. I want them to claim everybody else is illogical and can't reason, that we worship the Easter Bunny, and then watch as their whole system of beliefs comes crashing down. That too serves liberty.

What am I trying to get accomplished; only ONE THING:

I'm letting you know that you're going to run into pitfalls when defending WHY you have a right to your liberty if you define yourself and everyone around you as soulless animals, especially when dealing with people who DON'T define themselves that way and KNOW they have dominion over all the animals.

You just don't get it.

The strength of the Liberty Movement is in Liberty. Period! It is not in Christ, Alla, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Catholic, Jewish, Rastafarian, Muppet, Disney characters, etc. You can worship Sponge Bob, the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus for all I care, but just don't make an absurd statement like having an affinity with some dude named Jesus is the best path to getting along in this world. It is utter nonsense. If you were born in the middle of the Amazon and never knew anything about this individual you claim holds so much power, would that make you any less of a human being and someone who desires liberty?


And yet Christ was the first person on record to elaborate the .

Non-Aggression Principle. The Golden Rule which Christ admonished us to follow : Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

did you know him?

what mortal wrote the story you bought?


Even if written by a mortal, so what?

Explain yourself.

So, are you saying that in fact Christ was AGAINST the golden rule, but mortals said he was for it and mortals wanted to teach people the non-agression principle contrary to Christ's teachings?

If that's the case, what mortal told you that?

Or are you saying that there was no Christ, but Christ worshippers made up the Golden Rule, the fundamental principle of the non agression principle?

Or are you saying that while mortals propagated and taught the Golden Rule as fundamental to the non-existant Christ's teachings, that they didn't really mean it?

Your response makes no sense.

There are plenty of slaves in a rainforest.

"The strength of the Liberty Movement is in Liberty. Period!"

Liberty IS our strength, but there are people who think you shouldn't even have liberty. Liberty is their enemy, and they'll argue that you're here to serve and sacrifice to them, and they'll use force against you to prove it.

For me it's about why "might doesn't make right". It's about what's right and what's wrong, and why you have a right to your liberty.

Liberty is our strength, but for me, faith is about defending WHY you deserve it.

PS There are plenty of godless slaves in the rainforest, and yes, they want their liberty too, but none of them know how to put it into words like you or explain why they deserve to be treated like more than an animal here to be enslaved and dominated through force.

Once again, you refer to Godless like there is no alternative

view of the world or there is something wrong with someone who does not believe in a godlike entity. God is a man made word, nothing more than a word to describe some human beings reaching for an explanation to their existence and difficulty dealing with their finite mortality. We are all born into what we call life, an amazingly wonderful adventure no matter how long the journey lasts. We should all be grateful for whatever the duration is. Your faith to me is fantasy. Sorry, but I do not believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. And the rainforest people you refer to do not need words to corrupt their actions. They are far more in tune with the natural world and mother nature than you can perhaps probably fathom. The meek shall inherit the earth, not the egotistical and those who want to control the minds of others.


It doesn't matter Mudcrab. You've convinced me.

If we're just animals, don't bother thinking I give a damn about your liberty, and keep your gun close. It's the only thing between you and those who'd take it.

All you'll be left with is that gun believing that might makes right, and that's not going to be enough. I have an appetite, and God fills that void.

Without him, Mudcrab is BACK on the menu. You aren't as strong as you think, and if you want the garden, the garden will swallow you up.

blind faith

weak mind