20 votes

I believe the strength of the Liberty movement is in Christ

Highly recommend this incredible series:

http://youtu.be/mpLtwILsW3E

Would sure love some more of you guys to wake up to the fact that what is happening in this world is a spiritual war between God and Satan.

The Liberty movement will only prevail when it is backed by Christ, who is in fact its author. Without Christ libertarianism is vague and weak, witness the performance of Gary Johnson's God-free campaign.

With Christ, we cannot fail.

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Faith is about believing something that can't be proved.

It's about having faith in something beyond our vision, but that doesn't mean people of faith are blind or have weak minds. They have their own minds and witness, their own reasons to have faith, but you believing that people of faith have weak minds tells me something about YOU.

It tells me you hate people of faith and ridicule them thinking you're something MORE than them.

Atheists have their own system of beliefs concerning matters of faith and it always gets expressed in the same boring and profane ways; ridicule and self aggrandizement.

Correct, there are many items in science taken on faith.

For example many scientists believe in the big bang, although there is no evidence of it, it is not provable, nor can the expiriment be repeated.

Many scientists believe in the Higgs Boson or Supersymmetry or superstrings, though none have ever been proven to exist.

I like everyone. I just question what might be blind ignorance.

Faith is why children believe in UFO's, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. I just happen to not believe in these myself but others are welcome to believe whatever they think, as long as they don't push it on others. Remember, this post was started with the notion that Christ is the answer to attaining Liberty, which is like saying eating ice cream is the answer to Liberty or any other obscure statement. That is the only reason I responded to the post in the first place. I am no more or no less than any other human being. I was raised Christian, studied many religions throughout my life and came to my own feeling that religious beliefs are the most personal of personal ideals. And your assumption that I am atheist is just plain goofy. You have no idea whether I am agnostic, atheist, Muslim, Catholic or believe that my neighbors pet goat is omnipotent. And most importantly, it is totally irrelevant. Very simple. I happen to believe that Liberty will be achieved through actions of liberty and that Religion does not have any more or less relevance in the efforts. I welcome all people from all lands, nationalities and beliefs. I want Buddhist Monks and Afghanistan sheepherders to have the same freedoms we all desire.

beephree

I don't think even you believe that for a second.

"I am no more or no less than any other human being."

Sure you are. I have a weak mind and I'm a blind Easter Bunny worshiper. Don't try and pretend you aren't as transparent as glass. You don't want me to have anything to do with the Liberty movement, and want to tell me to keep my ideas to myself, and THAT is why you came here and why you posted, and THAT'S why you continue run your mouth denigrating faith.

I know you were raised as a Christian. I know you have deep seated reasons for hating them and thinking you're something more than them. Just don't turn around and try to tell me that "you like everyone" and think of yourself as equal.

That's what faith is about for me, equality, and finding a way to like you even though I'm left with no other reason to try. You want an equality of mud crabs, but people are more than animals to me, and we all deserve to be treated like one of Gods creations.

I can respect a mud crab. I can even love mud crab, but that won't stop me from making mud crab soup or get me to defend their liberty. For me, this is about WHY I should defend your liberty.

Phxarcher87's picture

Mattew 12:37

Thomas Jefferson

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.64

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.65

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.66

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.67

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain

Yes, but...

Thomas Jefferson also said:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State..."

The Founder's were enlightened men. They drafted the 1st Amendment for a reason. They did not want a theocracy headed by Kings who had supposed "divine right" to rule over all. Liberty was the driver.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

Thank you

It is so simple to understand. Liberty trumps everything else. I could give a rat's ass what you believe as long as you don't push it on me and leave me alone to live my life so long as I do nothing to harm you or anyone else.

beephree

Though I'm Christian (passive Catholic). Please...

do NOT drag (any) religion into the Liberty Movement.

Well if you believe this

Please explain Tim Tebow to me

NO

The strength of the liberty movement is in LIBERTY. that is the one thing we are 100% sure that we agree on. You have your religion and thats fine, but I appreciate if you would not preach it to me. I garauntee bringing religion to the forefront of the liberty movement is the opposite of "strength", and very divisionary. Here's something I've learned from the wise Ron Paul, and that is the wonderful simplicity of perspective. How would you feel if someone put up a post titled "The strength of the Liberty movement lies within Atheism"? That's all I have to say.

Beep beep boop beep... I am a Paulbot... prepare for liberty and prosperity!

The strength of the liberty

The strength of the liberty movement is in it's people, not your god.
Why is it that only libertarians can not win without Christ and not socialists, progressives and liberals? Since the progressives are winning does that mean Christ is on their side?
Since Gary Johnson's weak performance was due to a lack of Christ in his campaign, would that not imply that Obama won because he had Christ in his camp?
"With Christ we can not fail"? Tell that to all the Christian conservatives who back bible thumping Republicans, for they lost.
If a belief in your god helps you become a better freedom fighter, have at it. What I resent is the idea that the liberty movement can never be successful without bowing down to your god. For it happens every day. Christians don't always win.

a denial of Divine Intervention...

...in our founding, then?

In a revolution characterized as a group of citizens rebelling against their God-given liberties by a mother coutry and Magna Carta purported to protect/defend/promote those rights as a "friend" of God, or even under God?

Really?

The Godless are destructive to this movement; study out the proof that conscience and creation revelation is evidence of the existence of the "pure religion" Thomas Jefferson made mention of , before you throw the baby out with the bathwater since many professing Christians don't have the knowledge or courage or trust to turn their backs on the hypocrites of the faith in leadership positions, and leave them to bankruptcy and ruin as consequences of being delivered up to their own devices.

God's Word warned the believers about false teachers, etc etc etc and how tacit approval and association and wishing them Godspeed is building up Satan's dominion..Jesus said "few" would be saved, not many....be thankful for the remnant....don't speak ignorant of the subscribers of our God" unless you can prove where a man's soul will rest after it's physical body expires.

Of course lying politicians would attach themselves to the only vine of truth that cannot be destroyed; make their nests in it's branches etc. duh! Every founder KNEW that game....

Let's see...

"The Liberty movement will only prevail when it is backed by Christ, who is in fact its author."

Its author you say?

"But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither and kill them before me." (Luke 19:27)

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." (Romans 13)

Ehm (clears one's throat), what's goin on here?

Ron Paul Revolution is spreading around the world: Freedom and Prosperity TV: libertarian network of alternative media in Western Balkans

Read Chuck Baldwin's...

...book on Romans 13, regarding how that passage's meaning has been twisted out of the larger context. The government must submit to higher authorities.

Regarding Luke 19:27, that's in one of the parables, or stories, Christ was telling to get folks' attention and get them to think. Yes, Christ is the ultimate judge of all; but you have to look at the broader context of the specific parable, and of all Scripture.

There's always an excuse,

for some Christian to bash skulls.
Psalms 137:9

Biblical christianity and Liberty are antithetical.

God has no pleasure...

...in the death of the wicked. (Ezek 33:11, etc.)

Some of these 'angry Psalmist' passages may be outbursts of emotion from the writer, not necessarily doctrine from the mouth of God. The book of Job, for example, has long passages of various exchanges and meditations by Job's friends. This does not mean therefore that such expressions are those of God Himself.

Even if God allows the consequences of evil to result in temporal judgment and calamity on earth, this does not mean that in the long term He is not working everything out to the good of all His creation. I guess I especially have this hope, believing that ALL things whether on earth or in heaven will be reconciled to Him (Colossians 1).

This in no way gives us as His creatures license to act as if we're God and go around drone-striking Afghan children and wedding parties in His name. 'Blessed are the peacemakers' -- NOT the warmongers.

I would say distortions of Biblical Christianity can lead to human tyranny, but so too can any non-Christian ideology: just look at all the death and suffering and tyranny at the hands of those who wanted to stamp out Biblical Christianity and only allow their state-run churches. Just look at how even so-called libertarians justify another holocaust against unborn human beings.

I will grant you that so many Christians have blood on their hands from persecuting people they see as 'heretics'. Just look at how reformers like Luther and Zwingli turned around from the persecution under the Catholics and ended up supporting persecution of anabaptists, etc. Today we have many 'Christians' openly booing the Golden Rule with regard to the murder of civilians abroad.

There is plenty of blood on everyone's hands. But the God I serve is a God of unfailing love, whose justice is merciful and whose mercy is just, who has no pleasure in the death of anyone, and who will reconcile all things to Him in the end. The end of the story is good.

Danger.

I see great danger in the fact that anyone who is popular enough at the time gets to choose which scriptures count and which don't. I had no idea there were entire apologist categories like 'angry Psalmist.' I can't tell you how many time I have heard Psalms used in a sermon or class, or more generally the New Testament. What scares me far worse is that I never noticed a single word being out of line until I was ready to divorce myself from the entire system... and I know for a fact that I read the whole book more than once.

The aren't distortions of Biblical Christianity, they are actual historical examples of what Biblical Christianity actually does lead to. Yes, there are other bad ideas in the world, but the existence of other ideologies proven to also be consistently violent does not excuse the failures of the one being discussed.

You don't get to define Libertarian for everyone any more than you get to define life for everyone. In such an instance, "so-called" would seem to be that legendary christian exclusivity creeping in. Actually, you can define what you will, but as there is not at this time and place in history a deadly christian regime in power (debateable, I know), I am free to ignore it in favor of my own beliefs, as is any so-called Libertarian or Christian. That hasn't always been the case.

There is no blood on my hands. I do not associate with groups who kill people, control and extort people, and commit genocide, in their own pseudo-so-called history, as well as the one historians believe in. For a great many people, the story ended (/ends) badly, at least in their opinion should you be interested in their dying breath.. Today we have many christians openly murdering civilians, mostly muslims, abroad. What changed, the uniform? The god you serve executed more people in your holy book than any other character and didn't grant a single one of them a fair trial. Christianity is so twistable, that christians smile at rainbows as reminders that the majority of the population of the planet won't be ruthlessly murdered by the one they worship AGAIN, at least not all at once, not until the prince comes home. Then they call him merciful. Wow. I have a hard time thinking of anything that has done more harm in the world than monotheism. Danger.

The Golden Rule...

...causes death and suffering, or the ignoring, distortion or flagrant violation of it?

Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself...and extrapolated to love your enemies under Christ: is that responsible for brutality? Or the ignoring or distortion of such things?

Yes... what?

There is a problem inherent in the golden rule for christians: Self-loathing. Christians are all despicable sinners, born wretched and in need of forgiveness to clear them of the death penalty. It doesn't help to love thy neighbor as thou doth loveth thyself, when you don't first love yourself in the first place.

In other news, there are a great many scriptural counter-examples in the very conflicted book, like the one above from Luke. That's the problem. You can justify any tyranny with the Bible, just as easily as you can justify turning in your fishing nets to follow your passion.

Ascetic hermits...

...perching on poles for years and beating themselves with sticks...yes there are Christians who have practiced self-loathing as if that would somehow gain them favor with God. Then there is the opposite extreme of 'Christians' who see their faith as an excuse to throw everything to the wind and eat, drink and be merry in excess, since grace will cover everything like a blank check. You know ... go party hard at Mardi Gras before heading for the confession booth the next day.

It isn't about loathing the self which God Himself loves; it's about hating the sin in one's old life and longing to be transformed into one's new life away from that: being resurrected into new life, following Him who was first resurrected. Love is patient, love is kind, never fails, always hopes, etc., etc. (I Cor 13) -- that is the kind of love we are to have for ourselves, since God has that love for us, and in turn, we are to reflect that love of God onto our neighbors--even our enemies. We aren't supposed to hate ourselves.

Scripture is not intended to be taken piece-meal; you have to compare verse with verse and take it in its whole context. I can find a verse that says you should 'hate your father and mother' and then another that you should love and 'honor your father and mother'. If you blindly rip verses out of their context like dislocating bones out of sockets, yes, you can get Scripture to 'say' anything you like. It takes an open heart and mind to seek out how things fit together in the bigger picture.

I didn't say hermits.

I am talking about members of the Christian faith. In order to subscribe to the Christian doctrine, you must believe that you are born despicable, only deserving of death, fire and brimstone until someone fixes you with magical forgiveness. That is negative religion, mandatory self-loathing as a fundament of the belief system.

Scripture was put together piece-meal; Jesus didn't publish a book. It is self-contradictory when viewed as a whole. There is no justifying context for being happy about smashing babies on rocks. It takes an open heart and mind to admit that part of what you were indoctrinated with... is wrong.

I guess you're not familiar...

...with ascetic Christian sects such as the Stylites and various hermit predecessors. That was just an extreme version of acting out the self-loathing, that popped into mind.

Yes, Christians believe we are born into a fallen world which is a corrupted version of its original form, and that the effects of this corruption are like a cancerous blight on all creation. Do you know anyone who has never lied, cheated or done anything wrong they had to apologize for? Nobody's perfect. That doesn't mean we're supposed to hate ourselves; it just means we need to look to our Creator to transform us into the people we know we want to be, realizing that we can't do it on our own.

Yes, the fallen world is still here; the chain reactions of evil still mar creation and all of our lives. But these are just the birth pangs. All will be reconciled to God through Christ, because of His patience, mercy and love. All shall be well.

I'm aware of the christian extremists,

but you were writing about them, not me. ...but then you're starting to get what I'm talking about, the fundamental evil-world-evil-self christian outlook. God is good. I am not just bad, but impossibly incompetent. O, supreme leader, help my poor soul find its way. I was so glad to get away from that. I have never met a christian who really believed in the golden rule, though it is theoretically possible that they exist.

I was not born into a fallen world. I am a product of my parents by no choice of my own, who were the products of theirs. I come from a long line of animals that all survived to propogate when others did not. So do we all. I attempt to do the most good I can in the world and the least harm. I am in my own right worthy of love, just as I am, whether or not I obey commands. So are you. No part of me requires whispered apology or divine forgiveness. My wrongs are amended with the injured, or not at all. As my toughest critic, I am ultimately responsible to myself for my actions. I can not make any mistake worthy of eternal damnation any more than my successes can make me a god. I am but a man. I hope to be glad of what I have given to the world when I die. When I love my fellow humans as I love myself, it means something.

This small blue dot is a beautiful world, full of beautiful people and stunning variety, worthy of love just as it is/they are. Religions that would convince people otherwise only prove themselves (to me) to be what some people might call "chain reactions of evil." "Some day" never comes. The time to love is now.

Self-loathing...

...is what you had mentioned, and those hermits perched on poles and beating themselves with sticks is one of the images that first pops into my mind when someone mentions 'self-loathing' Christians. :)

I saw a picture on the web today of a church marquee with some 'message of the week' or what have you on it. It said 'God's love is unconditional as long as you are obeying Christ.' I think this kind of summarizes some of what you're saying, and indeed some, even many, Christians may have that perspective. But I would caution you not to lump all of us in the same boat in that regard.

What kind of a parent would people think I was if I tried to use that line when disciplining my children: 'If you don't obey me, I'll stop loving you.' Sorry, that is not the God I serve.

God's love for each and every individual transcends anything you could ever do or say, even if your heart currently wants to spit on the very notion of God as a delusion of idiots.

The Bible I read describes true love (i.e. God's 'agape' love) as unconditional, never failing, always hoping, outlasting everything else there is. I don't believe there is an expiration date on God's love, even beyond death. I don't believe that anyone is beyond the love and mercy of God, but believe that eventually even those who despise the notion of a Creator will return home willingly as the prodigal did, when they understand how things really are; and their heavenly Father will still welcome them with outstretched arms. Colossians 1 says that ALL things whether on earth or in heaven will be reconciled to God through Christ.

I know you don't want to believe that, but I think one day you will be pleasantly surprised to discover that you are actually much more than some chemical stew, descended from animals -- that Love is actually much more real and fundamental than mere molecular reactions. I guess my outlook is very Platonic in that respect. I believe in the 'forms' of Love, Person, Intelligence, etc. as pre-eminent over the physical. Take away the physical, and these things still exist in their own right. Call me delusional; but I don't think I am.

I disagree

Christ and Satan, Sin and Salvation are tools of Fear used by unscrupulous entities for all immoral acts and wars against humanity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLDqXEMwYsI&feature=share&lis...

Governments do not govern, but merely control the machinery of government, being themselves controlled by the hidden hand. For you see, the world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes. ~Benjamin Disraeli

His name is Edward Snowden

What is Capitalism?
http://youtu.be/yNF09pUPypw

I think that SOME get their strength through him

Gary Johnson didn't win because of Christ?

LOL sure that is why he tanked so bad. What about all the so called christians who are all crammed into the GOP who voted and PRAYED that romney got in?

Was the gop christ different than the libertarian one?

However many of us create our own strength based on our lives and everything we have learned while living it.

I do not see Libertarian going well with Christianity or a 'do what I say' or else mentality that comes with it.

Whatever works for one doesn't work for the other however why is it so many so called christians feel that the so called NON believers are actually without something?

I am HAPPY to not be locked into something that MAKES YOU either fall in line or burn in hell. To realize that most religions focus nonstop on embedding this into the kids heads so that by the time they are adults they can't do anything expect think that "santa IS real!!!!"

While mythical creatures and the stories that they were created from should be told to kids as stories I don't see why people actually BELIEVE the noahs and moses AND live THIS LIFE based on awaiting the next.

Why do the religious always have some special place AWAY FROM THE REAL WORLD that they think they are heading after they die?

Do you really believe that there is an animal heaven as well?

How many christians actually BELIEVE that hell is actually IN the center of the earth?

I would rather live with OPEN MINDED folks versus those who still believe the stories written by the winners of war over the last couple thousand years.

http://shelfsufficient.com - My site on getting my little family prepped for whatever might come our way.

http://growing-elite-marijuana.com - My site on growing marijuana

You assume that GJ was genuine liberty.

Meanwhile the Kochtopus controls the LP.

Check your assumptions.

Ah, the age old question

Do you need religion to have morality? My opinion is that you do not. If God asked you to kill a stranger to prove your faith, would you do it? If you have any hesitation about doing that, that should give you pause that may be morality does not come from the decree of a supreme being. Humanity will really take a step forward when "Thou shalt not kill" is replaced with "I shall not kill."

Not that I have anything against people being religious, as long as they follow the NAP. That is the beautiful thing about libertarianism and free markets. People of different faith systems, or a lack thereof, can peacefully coexist. Voltaire made this beautiful observation hundreds of years ago, when he described the markets of Amsterdam, where Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and people of other faiths interacted with nary a thought about their religious differences.

“With laws shall our land be built up, but with lawlessness laid waste.”
-Njal Thorgeirsson

your words are wise, and I appreciate them, especially--

the last two lines of your first paragraph--

I don't think the point of this OP is religion, but God. There is a VAST difference.

And I do believe there are many good atheists. Without knowing it, perhaps, they are aligned with God, while many religionists are, also possibly without knowing it, aligned with evil.

Makes it confusing.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

thank you

As I said, I am not against religion. I am very skeptical of organized religion, however.

"The ancient Poets animated all sensible objects with Gods or Geniuses, calling them by the names and adorning them with the properties of woods, rivers, mountains, lakes, cities, nations, and whatever their enlarged & numerous senses could perceive.
And particularly they studied the genius of each city & country, placing it under its mental deity;
Till a system was formed, which some took advantage of & enslav'd the vulgar by attempting to realize or abstract the mental deities from their objects: thus began Priesthood;
Choosing forms of worship from poetic tales.
And at length they pronounc'd that the Gods had order'd such things.
Thus men forgot that All deities reside in the human breast."
- William Blake

Here is a musical version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wecrgK7N9ec

“With laws shall our land be built up, but with lawlessness laid waste.”
-Njal Thorgeirsson