20 votes

I believe the strength of the Liberty movement is in Christ

Highly recommend this incredible series:

http://youtu.be/mpLtwILsW3E

Would sure love some more of you guys to wake up to the fact that what is happening in this world is a spiritual war between God and Satan.

The Liberty movement will only prevail when it is backed by Christ, who is in fact its author. Without Christ libertarianism is vague and weak, witness the performance of Gary Johnson's God-free campaign.

With Christ, we cannot fail.

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religion and morality are

...indispensable supports according to George Washington's Farewell Address; attacking these pillars is not characteristic of an American Patriot.

The progressives have won the day; moral relativism reigns in America....everyone wants to throw off the chains of religion, yoking themselves with the "logic" and "reason" of atheists, while ignoring the fact that atheists and agnostics simply borrow their personal moral code of conduct from SOME religion, while doing away with the hypocrites and encouraging everyone to "throw the baby out with the bathwater".

This nation is sunk because of compromised relationships professing Christians have with savage purveyors of a satanic counterfeit, along with the elevation of fools who deny the existence of a Creator altogether.

This world system will swallow America up, and she will no longer be a light of hope in the world everyone is cheering for; not because we rejected Ron Paul, but because we deny moral absolutes come from one Supreme Being, are binding upon all mankind, and the testimony and evidence of Christ the Creator's revelation of His existence and demonstration of His love has been rendered a fairy tale rather than an acknowledgment that He is the deed holder of this planet.

Jeremiah 6:16 is where we're at as a nation; the faux Judeo-Christian neo-cons and the Godless libertarians and the hypocritical Christian-professing Democrats are satan's trinity; such an abomination...reject the gospel, deny Christ, continue to mock His saints; without knowledge...and He will NOT answer, nor spare this nation what it deserves.

Just War theory, the NAP, is a moral principle derived from biblical Christianity....at least for Dr. Paul it is.

Wow guys!

Have to say I am super stoked at all these great responses. Overwhelmed in fact!

Guess it breaks down to something like this:

The enemies of Liberty are always the enemies of God.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

This is an excellent point and I'm shocked at the downvotes.

All governments involved in Democide, war against their OWN people have been anti-God. This is an indisputable historical fact.

Silly generalizations.

Is there (/has there been) a government that has not been in democide, or one that has been "pro-God" and peaceful? Not saying there is or isn't one, but I can't think of any. I can, however, think of a god story or two in which the god-government kills lots and lots of people for not living as they were commanded to live, both in religious texts, and on MSM. That's probably where the down votes are coming from.

Its not about forcing anything on you. We're trying to help.

Some people are all about the NAP until it comes to faith and then they go on the attack saying it shouldn't play any part.

You can still be a Libertarian as an Atheist or Agnostic. It's just going to VERY difficult for you. Nobody can FORCE faith on you, so don't act like that's what people are doing. We're just trying to warn you, and letting you know that you're going to run into problems explaining the justification for liberty.

There are pitfalls, and when we become soulless animals feeding on a mudball floating through space, liberty becomes difficult to defend. You'll need more than 'because I said so'. Ultimately nothing will matter and you'll be left a nihilist screaming about the NAP without any justification for WHY somebody should care what you want. You'll give them NO reason for why they shouldn't just stomp on you serving their self interest, except for the gun in your hand, and the hope that might makes right.

Soulless animals on mudballs?

I would argue that the people that are soulless animals are the mindless people who blindly follow a faith that was created and is maintained by looters.

Animals have souls... oh no wait, according to your church they don't... heaven is devoid of animals, ha ha. And if only human animals have souls, then what do you define as human? Chromosome count? What about people with Downs Syndrome? Do they have a soul? Okay, well then what about Chimpanzees? Are they soulless? They don't go to church. What about Dolphins? Do they have a soul? Nobody can force faith on you, you just have to give up reason and logic, and then it comes easily.

Being Christian makes it extremely difficult to be Libertarian because you don't understand about trading value for value... to you giving value and not getting anything in return is actually a nobler trade than getting something in return... and therein lies the evil and the ignorance.

We need to move the movement forward, not backward 2000 years. If it comes down to being a soulless animal, or a mindless idol worshipper, count me in with the soulless then.

It is all about theft, see my comment below.

You're a soulless animal now. Let's see where this goes.

"I would argue that the people that are soulless animals are the mindless people who blindly follow a faith that was created and is maintained by looters."

So, you're a self described soulless animal that thinks I'm a "mindless blind man" and a soulless animal too. So be it. Why should I care what you think and why should I want you to have your liberty? What is it you're saying; that you have an animals soul or no soul?

If you're just a soulless animal, why not just strap you to a plow and domesticate you through your nature? It's easy. All you have is your nature now. You're a collection of genetic ticks and emotions that I can recognize and use against you.

You revel in your nature. Those with free will have dominion over all the animals, because we've overcome our nature. We have free will and we've become more than the sum of our parts. We're able to recognize and use your nature against you. There's no animal that can stand against us. There's nowhere they can run to or hide from us, and can ALL be domesticated for our use.

So if we're just animals now; mudcrabs here to feed and be fed upon, why should I not just eat you because I'm a better mudcrab? Why should I want somebody like you to be free, to have your liberty? You're a soulless animal serving its nature, so let those with the biggest brains win!

"Nobody can force faith on you, you just have to give up reason and logic, and then it comes easily."

There are many many reasons to have faith, one of which is that the human race still exists.

It really is a miracle that we're all still here, that somebody who sees human beings as a bunch of soulless animals destroying the mudball hasn't pushed the button or figured out a way to get the job done. With as man suicidal people as there are, there are even more who want to kill EVERYBODY ELSE, and they aren't without means.

What's stopping them? They see people as nothing more than a virus, a cancer created by and destroying the garden. They call that enlightenment and see mass murder as a loving act where they're saving the garden and all the other lessor mudcrabs. They just keep on failing though don't they? Why? What's stopping them? What's protecting us? You? No. They wouldn't think twice about destroying you. Why should they? You have no more value than a grain of sand, less actually, because grains of sand can form a desert and even a desert can sustain life while all you do is take life.

"Being Christian makes it extremely difficult to be Libertarian because you don't understand about trading value for value... to you giving value and not getting anything in return is actually a nobler trade than getting something in return... and therein lies the evil and the ignorance."

That was nihilist gibberish. Being a soulless animal and nihilist makes it hard to recognize value, because they don't recognize that human life has value, where value comes from, our why it's created to begin with, to sustain life and the quality of our lives.

If we're all just soulless animals, there's no reason to create ANYTHING of value. Animals can live in the garden. They don't to need create anything of value. Value is created by the garden itself, and the mudcrabs feed on it's excess finding an equilibrium within the garden.

A nihilist will actually declare value to be meaningless, arbitrary, something based on a persons opinion. They believe value is something that shouldn't even be created by people, because they want to live like an animal in the garden.

Yet the garden is long gone and can't sustain all of us, and we're sustained by the value derived by productive labor, by domesticating the garden, by knowing that we're more than the soulless animals, the flora and fauna that makes up the garden, by knowing that WE DO have dominion over this Garden and all the animals in it.

"We need to move the movement forward, not backward 2000 years."

You're a self described soulless animal, and soulless animals are unevolved and lessor creatures that have yet to overcome their nature. They don't have what we have, and I'm not going to follow you backwards into a tree or back into the garden. There's too much that I value riding on it, the life and liberty of those "mindless and soulless animals" you'd give no value.

Guys like you want to move backwards not 2000 years, but backwards 2 million years, and I'm not going to watch you do it. You want to be an animal, fine, go live in a tree monkey, and stop trying to pretend animals give a damn about each others liberty.

Grow up already..

they're called invisible friends for a reason.

Instead of satisfying your fantasies why not use reason and logic and argue sound ideas and spread those instead? You know like non violence, respect, integrity, respect for property ownership, honesty, ect..

non ideology

Libertarianism works best for me a not-ideology. Everybody comes from different places with different core values and religions. The power of this liberty movement is if we can maximize peoples's ability to search out the good, the true and beautiful. Virtue is critical to this movement. But the entire point is that we don't all have to be secularists, theists, Darwinians, Creationists, conspiracy theorists. Another thing seem to be respect.

Vickie

Agreed

Religious organizations are indispensable with liberty. It was the religious organizations that provided for the welfare of the unfortunate before big government. It is the Atheists, who are mostly liberal, who despise the very notion of having to go hat-in-hand to a religious organization for help, so they push for big government. They don't want to get their hands dirty to help others, nor do they want to receive help from the faithful who they detest. This has destroyed our communities. The Atheist communist liberals have destroyed our country.

you do know there are Atheists here, right?

And that they support nearly all of the policies (maybe differences concerning abortion?) that you do?
That they're decent, hard-working, open-minded, tolerant. Sorry, Clint. At least they're swayed by logic. The underpinnings of religions are all the abandonment of reason in order to follow the credo of radical hope (faith). Their atheism has little to do with the wars, the welfare state, or any other malaise America is suffering from. Have you forgotten all the Bible-thumping born-again neocons? How'd that work out?

I would suggest you refrain from letting yourself be blinded by your theology. When you express it like that it could be found offensive, and quite possibly ignorant.

Touched A Nerve

I clearly stated that most atheists are liberal, which is the truth.

Funny how you didn't address the thrust of my argument, the indispensable nature of faith and liberty. It's convenient for Atheists to side step that issue time and again.

Of course you have to turn it around like a typical closet liberal/Atheist and play the offended card. And of course the... everyone is ignorant but Atheists nonsense. If you find what I said offensive, it's probably because it's true. The truth hurts.

BTW, there is no evidence of Darwinism. No matter how many times you call us ignorant, there is no escaping that fact.

Are you offended?... GOOD!

Wrong

We may need a symbol, but let it be Ron Paul. Christians don't even agree with each other, and really don't understand what is good and bad, or how to identify evil or Satan. Christians also really don't know a thing about Jesus except from what was written hundreds of years later, and the story that is associated with Jesus, actually was around long before Jesus was born... they related it to other guys... same exact story, son of God, crucified, etc.... all happened before Jesus.

Ayn Rand would be a better symbol. At least she defined what good and evil are. You can't fight evil if you don't know what evil is, and churches don't know what it is. Evil is stealing... plain and simple... taking the unearned. Every commandment is a variation of that, but you don't need 10 commandments to tell it. George Carlin did a skit on this. It is also the central theme of the movie "The Kite Runner". Churches preach giving more especially if you get nothing out of the transaction... that is preaching evil... all good comes out of individuals trading value and getting something out of an exchange... not giving and getting nothing back. If you give to the poor, and you enjoy it, you get enjoyment out of it. If you don't enjoy it, and you give anyway, that is evil, a sin against yourself, stealing from yourself, redistribution of your wealth to someone else against your will. All this crap about 'sacrifice' and how that is what man was made for... to 'sacrifice'... Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross, so now we must all sacrifice ourselves... like Billy Idol said, "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine"

If you need something to idolize to feel energy, look in the mirror... worship that person in the mirror... act like the person you would be proud of.

Although I would like to agree

I don't see how "Christ" could be the strength of this movement when obedience to His word is not a cause of the movement. Practically no one here is advocating a return to real Scriptural truth and obedience. Why would He support continued rebellion against His Law and His Name? The answer is He doesn't.

Makes no sense

Christ admonished us to follow the Golden Rule.

"Treat others as you would want to be treated."

If that's not the fundamental principle underlying the non-agression pricinple, then nothing is.

Almost all religions

and many atheists hold to that doctrine so even though it is in line with biblical teaching it does not indicate a move toward GODs Law. The reason is that the saying only applies to those who follow GODs Law otherwise it is just the same ole song and dance of let every one decide what is good for others.

And if you think that "Christ" is non aggressive then I would like to see your face when He returns. You will see some aggression like you have never seen when that happens and when it does then all the feel good sayings in the world will go out the window and His Law will rule. People will see that He is not libertarian and they will have to learn His way or the highway.

He said that the Golden Rule was His law.

Did Christ not say, "As I have loved you, love one another."

?

Yes he did!

Yes He did.

But that doesn't negate my statement because loving each other is not synonymous with loving God because "Do not the heathen do the same?" Ungodly people love there families too.

1."Thou shall love (the LORD) Yahwh with all thy heart all thy mind and all thy soul."
2."You shall love thy neighbor as thyself."

The point is that no one seems to have a problem with the second great commandment. It's the first one that eludes them.

It is definitely a spiritual war

God has blessed our country in a big way, but as we turn our backs on Him our politics and everything else becomes corrupt and a mere shadow of what it should be. So, therefore, we get a wicked POTUS like Obama and several of the others. There is a huge spiritual war going on behind the scenes and it is unfolding just as God's Word said it will. Fear not, God is in control.

Thank you for posting this :)

Edit: is that Alistair Begg?

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

If this is true, Willl,

How come the churches aren't churning out liberty-minded individuals with the moral character and courage it takes to mount a successful liberty movement?

There's a better chance of Jesus himself coming down here to fix our government than there is of these churches (such as they are) cranking out enough people fit for that task.

I think you wax euphoric in your proclamation without having a good handle on what time it is here. Indeed, if Jesus is, as YOU say, the founder of libertarianism, then he is doing a terrible job at running his own organization.

And I would make the same argument to those who believe that Jesus founded their churches. If he did, why does he let so much sin and weakness and ignorance and division thrive there? Why does he not run it as he did his ekklesia in the First Century?

Until you can answer THAT question, I hardly think you have an answer for the "liberty movement" reforming itself around Jesus.

Religion, per se, is simply not required for a viable liberty movement. What is needed is people of sound and consistent principle. Interestingly, some of the people who have the greatest problems with the advancement of liberty ARE the Christians. Indeed, their franchises urge them to vote for enemies of liberty. Some other franchises urge them to lobby their congressmen for unconstitutional foreign aid (which money comes out of our pockets). And others still urge them to try to get Christianity written into the US Laws---presumably because they would rather force people to behave since they can't freely PERSUADE them to do it through their routine church initiatives?

Even so, Jesus does not put an end to all this corruption done in the name of Christianity. How, then, is he going to depended upon to manage a liberty movement?

I know this is contrary to popular opinion, but I see no evidence that Jesus or God are intervening in politics today. If so, what movement can be observed that bears their character?

Anyone? Bueller?

Perhaps it's time to let Jesus speak for himself and stop proclaiming to the world that he is doing this or that. If the Christians would stop doing that, there would be very little reason for anybody to think that Jesus is active in the world today--and especially in the political and religious institutions. In fact, I can think of nothing.

Please don't take this to mean that I'm an atheist, for I am not. As to WHY Jesus is not involved today, that's a matter for investigation. And it's a HUGE deal. Interestingly, however, a couple billion Christians don't seem to be able to figure out that Jesus has left the building.

Lol at 'Bueller?'

Great points Jack. Agree with most of your sentiments. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian. We have to look at their behavior not their words.

"How come the churches aren't churning out liberty-minded individuals with the moral character and courage it takes to mount a successful liberty movement?"

Amen to that! If they were Christian churches, they would be.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

2 Chronicles 7:14

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
However, if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves, pray, search for me, and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear [their prayer] from heaven, forgive their sins, and heal their country.

Have hope! Prayer will be returned to our schools and to our country. It has been prophesied and is happening as we speak.

"I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this any more!"
- Howard Beale

Amerianne, do you realize....

Do you realize that America is not ancient Israel, that Americans are not God's "my people", that we are not "called by" his name, and that this promise never had America in view when it was uttered?

You have no more business using this passage for this purpose than someone like Hitler would have had to use it for his own ends.

Don't like that ideology?

Try this one instead: There was a bright angel, on whose brow rested a crown of light, on which was traced the word Union and bearing the American flag, who once said to George Washington in a vision, "Son of the Republic, what you have seen is thus interpreted: three great perils will come upon the Republic. The most fearful is the third, but in this greatest conflict the whole world united shall not prevail against her. Let every child of the Republic learn to live for his God, his land and the Union."

http://www.propheticroundtable.org/vision_of_george_washingt...

"I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this any more!"
- Howard Beale

Crickets.

Thanks for posting this, it looks very interesting.

I also like The Christian in Complete Armour by William Gurnall. It is heavy reading, but it goes through in painstaking detail the way Satan works, his instruments (which describe our politicians to a T), and how to repel the attacks.

http://m.ccel.org/ccel/gurnall/armour/home.htm

Peace = War = Brainwashing Consent For Slavery/Tyranny

Satan = Freemasonry Confusion = God/Jesus

Calling together the liberty movement in the name of confusion/Freemasonry/Jesus is no way to defeat the New World Order, but is rather quite to the contrary.

No doubt NWO elitists have been found to have ties with Luciferianism/Freemasonry. So why then does the God of the old testament so strongly paralell their ideals (hint - there is no historical Jesus)?:

[ As anyone who has read the old testament knows, God (of peace?) ordered the abduction of women for purpose of sexual enjoyment, and even commands that rapists are to be rewarded by taking the rape victims as their wives.

"The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9)." ]

The above is an excerpt from my article "Sowing The Seeds For A Peace Revolution"
- http://www.dailypaul.com/241312/sowing-the-seeds-for-a-peace...

"Holy S___!"

"Fascinating stuff!"

"cool read"

"I have to agree"

"Thank you, RicoCabeza, for your compelling associations between religious texts, significant influences, killing animals, and a culture of violence. For those of us who want a world of peace, this is all of worthy consideration."

- AMAZING PHOTO delineating where UNRESTRAINED CAPITALISM has taken us: http://www.rense.com/general96/whatare.html
- "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-- Mohandas Gandhi

Sorry but I cannot support the injection of religion

Religion should not be the cornerstone of a movement that seeks to encompass all who share the philosophical values of the Constitution as the foundation of our government. That "moral majority" movement is part of what made TEA party participants labelled as kooks and "religious nuts". Small federal government cost, intrusion and interference, coupled with lower taxes and adherence to the Constitution are the standards we need to agree on, not what religion you belong to.

This is an interesting subject.

However the series you have linked to "Know Your Enemy" while well meaning is I believe mistaken in their identification of the enemy.

Satan of course means adversary in Hebrew and so it is tautological to say that satan is the enemy. The very first video identifies lucifer as satan and describes this entity as a fallen angel who rebelled in the beginning against the rule of God. This is orthodox Christian doctrine that has been believed in by the Church for hundreds of years so it is well entrenched. However the same video correctly identifies lucifer as the morning star which is the planet Venus that rises just before the dawn. The morning star in Latin is lucifer but in Greek it is πηοσπηοροσ...phosphoros. This is the word used by the apostle Peter in 2 Peter when he is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:19 "Moreover, we possess the prophetic word as an altogether reliable thing. You do well if you pay attention to this as you would to a light shining in a murky place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts."

The same reference is made in Revelation that is even more direct.

22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!”

It is therefore very clear that Isaiah 14 is not referencing an angel who was at one time in favour with God but rebelled and was cast down from heaven to appear in the Garden of Eden as a serpent. This is a very important truth that must be embraced if one is to enter into the Truth since it is just one part of a history of dogma and false doctrine that has been built up over centuries and is now the bulwark of the Christian religion.

This is a very hard word and not one that any professing Christian within the denominational system will find easy to believe. It is nevertheless true and once understood will lead one into a new appreciation of the true faith once entrusted to the apostles. The call to the believer today is to “Come out of her, my people, so you will not take part in her sins and so you will not receive her plagues, because her sins have piled up all the way to heaven and God has remembered her crimes." (Revelation 18:4-5)

The entity known as satan has always entrenched itself in religion and today is no different. When speaking to those Jews who had BELIEVED in Him Jesus said:

John 8:44 "You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies."

This is no fallen angel the Lord Jesus is describing. It is a cosmic spiritual entity and a tendency revealed in every carnal mind that is enmity to God. The man of sin is not far from any of us. He is part of us. We are the food of that ancient serpent, the devil and satan, for his food is dust and we are dust. The battle is within ourselves between the Spirit and the flesh, the carnal mind that is enmity to God. When we repent we change sides in the ongoing spiritual war and we receive the Spirit of Christ who creates within us a new creature and in union with us leads us to victory over the flesh, the world and the devil.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For the outlook of the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, 8:7 because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so. 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousness. 8:11 Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you."

There is a teaching on this subject that is well worth reading. One is about satan and the other about the antichrist. The present teaching in the evangelical churches about the antichrist as a monstrous personage that will bestride the world like a colossus at some point in the future is another great deception put about by the great deceiver to lead believers astray. The links I have given will clarify this for anyone who is seeking the truth of the matter.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/serpent/Serpent.htm

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/antichrist/antichrist1.htm

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)