20 votes

I believe the strength of the Liberty movement is in Christ

Highly recommend this incredible series:

http://youtu.be/mpLtwILsW3E

Would sure love some more of you guys to wake up to the fact that what is happening in this world is a spiritual war between God and Satan.

The Liberty movement will only prevail when it is backed by Christ, who is in fact its author. Without Christ libertarianism is vague and weak, witness the performance of Gary Johnson's God-free campaign.

With Christ, we cannot fail.

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The Strength of the Liberty movement is

allowing people to find the truth without force, law or regulation.

If I said "We liberty people are all Christians" it would create an atmosphere of exclusion.

While I do believe in your statement I know that God allows free will. The ultimate Libertarian.

And I think that our populace has become so far removed from spiritual thought it has taken our country to the brink of this collapse. It may take a collapse to remind us what we really need.

Keep the faith.

Religion

Is a brainwashing tactic to control people. Geez. It's like, "believe what we say or you will pay" I don't buy it. Believe what you want but allow others to believe what THEY want as well.

skippy

God Is More Powerful

He will win the battle.

But I do believe he has left it up to us to do our part to fight our battle.

Freedom or tyranny tomorrow: God still wins, and will be with us, and us with him either way.

So, yes have faith, don't do anything without God.

But Liberty is ours only if we want it and seek it.

The Entirety of Christian Religion

Is that

1) God, the master of the universe infinitely just and holy, loved man more than Himself, so we should value life and each other more than anything else.

2) Christ, the savior, died so that we could be free to choose righteousness or evil. Redemption and repentance are God's gifts which enable our freedom. Not freedom to do wickedly, but freedom to self-realize, and come unto God on our own terms. To achieve happiness through the exercise of our will, which God gave to us.

3) The Holy Spirit, if we have faith, will give us all Wisdom. There is no need for religious dogma in the civil society. Faith to seek God's Wisdom, to do His Will is enough for us to INDIVIDUALLY use the resources God gave us to know Him and His truth. I.e.: freedom of religion serves God, not theocracy, because faith not force leads man to truth.

In my mind, Christianity is the religion of Liberty, and Liberty is God's desire for man.

But Liberty does not require Christian faith, it is the other way around.

Not even close.

The Bible is much longer than your post, and the annals of history, longer still. There is a great deal more to Christianity than the holy-trinity-god-of-one. That club has committed genocide on every continent inhabited by humans, in the name of the same figure you "worship." Hardly something to be ignored, or for that matter, idolized. Christians don't get to define "do wickedly" for everyone. Not anymore. A god who kills people who don't do what they're told is no god of Liberty, and the christian god killed millions for just that - by the christian account, not mine.

Christian parents deny their children free will by indoctrination from birth. When they try to exercise their free will, they all-to-often get a strap of leather across the backside, not so differently from the slaves of christian men and THEIR free will. Which slaves, on what continent, in which century? Exactly. One must squint really hard and probably press in on the eyeballs a bit to see that christianity and free will have anything at all to do with each other.

Sure

But I personally oppose how traditional religion works, and I don't see Christianity as necessarily dependent on traditional religious belief.

Most atheists (and I have been one during my life) are right in ALL of their skepticism. Still, most atheists seem to lack an awareness of that pure aspect of religion which in fact many religionists seem to also lack.

When you really believe in God, like, the realness of God, and you understand the Christian message (beyond praying for material outcomes, or some kind of salve for miserable imperfection), then God and faith really mean something to you. It affects how you feel about what your life is all about, what you'll do for other people, it's a big deal.

What I've come to understand is that intellectual assent for the entire narrative aspect of the Bible (literal belief in miracles, events, etc.) will do nothing for the man of faith because: the devils also believe.

On the other hand, the 'point' of Jesus' atonement, the importance of faithful living, and so forth, are as relevant today here and now whether Jesus was a tripartate God or just a man acting in God's name, or even whether Jesus was a 200 AD contemporary telling of a timeless allegory.

For both the atheist and the religionist, the ability to see beyond the dogma and the literal narrative is where pure religion is found.

Even if the Bible is literally true, neither Jesus nor Moses are around today, so believers are left in the same place one way or another when it comes to faith and what it means.

The problem is that the liberal churches have all become post-modern, and the conservative churches have doubled down into the hard core dogma.

I'll admit it's a bad world out there when it comes to pure religion. But pure religion can be found somewhere in almost every church, and even outside of church.

Keep that in mind ;) and please try to think beyond the linear arguments of Richard Dawkins.

Ignorance breeds Ignorant religion AND Ignorant politics.
Ignorant religion breeds dissatisfaction and awakening.

It's not as bad as you think UNLESS you're a marxist-sympathetic liberal that believes that literally if it just weren't for those darn christians...

Deism, eh?

I appreciate the founding deists' struggle to reconcile their lack of understanding of creation with their refusal to buy into magical myths.

I hold the standpoint that if there exists some "pure religion" to be found, it would be found everywhere, not only in the American brand of the Jesus story, the dogma that "when you believe...you understand" and implicitly "non-believers need to be taught." If there is some pure religion, it would be a common element among all religion, and further among all people, in all countries. Gravity doesn't work any differently under a steeple or a cross from how it works in front of a cross-legged fat guy. What is universally true, is true everywhere in the universe.

The preemptive strike on Dawkins was unnecessary. I'm not a fan. Neither was the Cold-War-meets-party-politics prop piece. I agree with you that ignorance breeds ignorant religion and ignorant politics. I may disagree with you on what ignorance is.

No.7's picture

Excellent summation

I would love to hear more about what you have to say.

I've been struggling with my faith in God for years now. Several things about Christians bother me. Two things in particular. One being that many Christians claim to be Righteous because they changed and acquired the Holy Spirit so they don't sin anymore. Then I go to hang out with them and get away from sin but we all just sit around playing mario kart or watching football around other self proclaimed Righteous Christians and call it Fellowship. I call that sin, I just clearly sinned better at the Fraternity house.

The second problem I find is that most Christians truly believe Christ is the only way and that all Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Deists, and Muslims, and Atheists will all be banished to hell and eternal torture. I cannot believe that, there is no way 5 billion other people are going to hell for living their culture but we aren't for living our culture. No chance of that being true in my mind.

Thank you for this comment, it makes a lot of sense to me.

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

I have a long complicated religious background

I have recently, though, stumbled upon this:

http://americanunitarian.org/wordpress/

If you're familiar with Lysander Spooner, he was a Unitarian.

Unitarianism (and Spooner) were drawn into socialism, and then eventually post-modernism.

About 50 years ago what was left of Unitarianism became the UU church (Unitarian Universalist). It has seemed to be more characterized by its liberal politics than anything else, and barely holds on to much residual Christianity.

However, it seems that some people have decided to form a new Unitarian Conference. It appears that they have about 2 congregations nationwide. Ah well, I'm used to that sort of level of participation and influence.

I haven't participated with them yet, and am waiting until I move soon, because there's a committee where I'm moving to. We'll see.

Unitarianism is what I would call 'classically liberal' religion. The idea is that the church's role is NOT to enforce or suggest any kind of religious doctrine, which is rather the job of the believer. The church is a place to congregate and worship, also to learn and share.

There is a 'general' sort of 'historical' doctrine of Unitarianism, but the idea is it is still the believer, through faith and study, who arrives at truth (rather than it being force fed).

I personally love the idea. In particular I'm happy to see a move away from UU. I want a church where Christ is a big deal and people are trying to really believe in God and worship Him, but without the trappings and baggage of religious dogma.

We'll see.

ps: The UU church is a good microcosm of modern liberalism. Basically, it has been poisoned by critical theory. If you know what I mean.

I actually was UU as a kid, and I remember in 8th grade sunday school became sex-ed. They wanted to show explicit and intimate sketches of sex, homosexual, heterosexual.

This is pure critical theory. What started as a 'freely choose what you will believe', becomes: those other guys are against freedom, so our job is to tyrannically oppose them. So here's your gay sex porn kids - those darn traditionalists won't make you uptight about sex no sir.

This is how classical liberalism became modern liberalism, politically.

(Well, I think modern American liberalism got its name from Prussian Bismarckian Liberalism which was: a brutal authoritarian prince who progresses to concede social services for his people).

I used to...

...hold the eternal, concious torment view of hell; but I am leaning more and more to share the views of an early church father, Gregory of Nyssa (he helped develop the Trinity doctrine and formulate the Nicene creed), that all things will be reconciled to Christ, as it says in Collosians, etc. I believe that God's love never fails, always hopes, etc. (I Cor 13) and that he will never give up on any lost sheep or prodigal. Some will wander in the wilderness of a self-imposed hell, but God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and His punishment is restorative in nature, throughout the patterns of Scripture. True -- the hell texts then have to be more closely analyzed to see how they fit into the universalism presented in other passages; but when you go to the Greek, the aionion term translated by some as eternal/everlasting can actually mean 'pertaining to the age to come'. So 'eternal' life/punishment can instead mean 'the life/punishment of the age to come', not specifying a duration but rather in which age they occur.

Those who take the usual 'eternal' translation at face value in the hell texts have a similar exercise to perform, taking a closer look at and trying to explain the universalist passages such as Colossians 1. No matter which view you hold--ECT, annihilationism, universalism--there will be a set of 'problem texts' you have to deal with in some way to fit into your view.

I believe the end of the story is good, and there is no expiration date to God's love.

See 'The Evangelical Universalist' by Gregory Macdonald (Robin Parry) or 'The Inescapable Love of God' by Thomas Talbott if you're interested. Also, George MacDonald's 'Unspoken Sermons'.

No.7's picture

I see hell as God giving us what we love most

As in, an alcoholic's hell would be an eternity in a tavern with unlimited booze.

I see hell as a loving God giving us what we loved more than him. IMO hell is His way of saying "you want your sin more than My Kingdom, have it and be away from Me"

I really like what your saying about purgatory until Christ comes again. I think much of the meaning in the Bible is lost in translation. It seems to me that none of us will ever deserve heaven, for we are all sinners. This makes sense with your belief that God does not punish the wicked but accepts them, perhaps in a lesser room of His Kingdom.

John 14:2 says "In My Father's house are many rooms, if it were not so I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you."

This could mean there are levels of Heaven for levels of righteousness or it could mean there are different rooms in Heaven for the believers in the different Prophets like Krishna, Mohammed, Abraham, Moses, and Buddha. However John 14:6 seems to say Jesus is the only way, but that also could be an idea lost in translation or taken out of context. Perhaps Jesus was telling those around him the He was the only way for those he was speaking to but not for all mankind.

Thank you for sharing, I appreciate it.

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

Yeah, that's not to say...

...that there is no suffering in punishment or that such suffering won't last for eons as those responsible for evils have to come to realization of every ounce of pain and evil they caused (i.e. Hitler, etc.); but I don't believe it is punishment just for the sake of punishment. It's purpose is for the ultimate reconciliation of all things. The Israelites chose not to enter the Promised Land at first, and the result was death and suffering, wandering in the wilderness for another generation. This did not mean God was setting aside His promises to Abraham. Our choices in life may bring suffering on ourselves, but when we truly throw ourselves on the mercy of God through Christ, He will still treat us with love.

I believe that Christ is the way, the truth, the life; those in other faiths will come to full realization of this in time, seeing how He is the fulfillment of what truths were lying in shadow. God can see each of their hearts and know if their response to Him is in effect faith in the Messiah, or relying on Him to save them rather than seeing themselves as gods who will save themselves through their own deeds or goodness. Nothing is reconciled to God apart from Christ (no man comes to the Father but by me); BUT ALL things WILL be reconciled to Him (Col 1).

I will attempt

I'm not a great example of living a sinless life, but let me try to explain two of those issues.

Hell: For humans it's referred to at the 2nd death. There is a "waiting room" type hell where nonbelievers go to await judgement day. That isn't eternal. After judgement day, those who don't make the cut simply cease to exist. They die in spirit. The fallen angels know what they are doing, and it was intended only for them. They suffer there for eternity.

Only one true God: It's easy to overthink this one, but I look at it as the stories all differ, so in the case of conflicting stories, only one or none can be true.

Might or might not help, but it's something to think about.

No.7's picture

Thank you

I like the idea of purgatory where noone gets punished as I said in my reply above.

However, while I do believe there is only one God. I don't see why the same God couldn't have manifested himself many times in history. The teachings of Hindu and Buddhism are so very similar to Christ's teachings and they predate Christ. The teachings of Mohammed are also very similar and the Qur'an says that Christians have tainted Christianity. I believe that to be true the way Henry 8(I think 8th???) started the Anglican Church and Queen Bloody Mary and so many other leaders twisted and translated the Bible I do believe much has been lost in translation

I heard a good comparison once that went like this, "To read the Gospels of Christ without understanding Roman culture or Rome's war on Judaism is to read The Diary of Anne Frank without knowledge of the Holocaust."

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

Satan

He takes what God creates and perverts it. Sometimes he just has to add the slightest twist. It's just enough to throw people off.

I will

agree that it is a battle between good and evil. You can call the good "Christ" and I will call it "universal energy".

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
-Thomas Paine

Christ is More than Good

For example, I'm something of Unitarian. I could almost be 'muslim' if I had any interest in the Koran or Mohammad (I really don't).

Still, the Christian faith holds special significance to me.

There's more there than just an omnipotent, omniscient being who created man.

With Christ, there's the condescension of this ultimate being to send a son, to die, to free and save an undeserving man.

It's a story of the essence of the love inherent in creation.

No it isn't.

Knock this religious huckstering off. You're no better for telling people to appeal to a celestial authority than the people doing it to the state. Jesus stories are what kings used to justify enslavement of men. The bible is a prop for the state, and submitting to the insanity in it is ludicrous. I understand there are a lot of Christian libertarians, but you're trading one poison for another. There is no proof of any god(s) in any holy book ever. None. Don't drag this movement down by tying it to theocrats in robes. Sorry for the rant, but I went through an entire childhood of religious indoctrination and I get annoyed when I see people talking about freedom saying we need to obey a religion sponsored by the state for centuries to keep people dumb and poor.

No train to Stockholm.

and the founders threw off their religion....

....and were wealthy? They then sacrificed all, life, liberty, and property in the spirt of agnosticism or outright denial of a Supreme Being did they?

Sure there wasn't a little Christian work ethic, and thoughts of future rewards behind their selfless acts?

In God We Trust

I thought I read that somewhere.

Careful

I guess I'm being facetious, but isn't that a slogan adopted by Freemasons to put on money and it means something alchemical and not religious?

Yes

Started in 1954. Boy, those founders were old!

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

Started showing up on currency...

..as its foundations of silver and gold were being undermined. Now the Fe'ral Reserve Digit has NO MATERIAL BACKING and is wholly supported by faith -- faith in the goodness of government and faith in the goodness of gods. In exchanging the real for the imaginary we've been led a little farther down that road to destruction that is paved with good intentions and wishful thinking.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

Don't involve religion with it

allow it as a right to practice guaranteed by liberty

BTW the papal states doesn't have a good history with liberty

Yes I'm an atheist

there is a right way to court the Creator's favor....

...towards our struggle, and a wrong way....

Glenn Beck, Alex.Jones, Israel-first evangelicalism that operates hand-in-glove with K-street pro-family lobbyists that prop up Republican central-planners and Statists with money taken by deceit from unsuspecting Christian conservatives in election cycle after election cycle really has gotten my goat in recent years....but...as Godless Libertarian, and duped Christians not learned in their scriptures REFUSE to separate from those who serve not the Lord Jesus Christ, but rather their own bellies(Romans 16:17-18) continue to call for unity where the black/white moral absolutes of God's Laws are NOT openly welcome(nor is gratitude or humility even for the FREE SPEECH we're exercising this very HOUR); you can count on this nation continuing on it's path to ruin no matter how loud Alex.Jones screams "we're in danger".

The founders reverenced the God of the "pure religion" as Thomas.Jefferson called it; and because they knew the size and scope of their parent government enemy, they AGREED to seek and petition the God higher than Caesar...and He answered because their hearts were fearful, not PROUD!!!

Indeed I will vent my disgust with having the owner shut down my thread( http://www.dailypaul.com/269893/the-alex-jones-national-frea... ) and insult my intellectual contributions and warnings to the rest of the community here; when I have been in this primarily for my 5 children God gave me.

As much as I understand God's COMMAND to the believer to separate from compromisers, I too will not strive with the Godless and foul-mouthed haters of God who think the moral principles of our founding were just window dressing and now revisionist history along with progressives from all 3 "eligible" political parties in America.

For those professing believers who want a more serious understanding of the spiritual war going on, and another arena to battle in(since compromise and loyalty to media personalities seems to have overtaken this one for the time being); consider a self-examination of your true allegiance to God's revelation to mankind, and specifically His place of refuge for those who love His commandments must go when Satan asserts his dominion over all that seemeth "good"(like this Liberty movement seemed to be while the Christan Statesman Dr. Ron Paul was FRONT AND CENTER encouraging and promoting the idea that we should seek to "add virtue and excellence" while we can) in our free society(not tearing others down and calling them cowards and wimps for not ... Well...You've seen AJ in action).

Head over here, believers; and listen to Pastor Ralph Ovadal and Revered Ivan Foster plead with the church to guard our souls with all diligence in these evil days!!!
Download and Listen to his 1/4/2013 message that sermonaudio.com PULLED at http://pccmonroe.org ... This stuff of calling out Christian hypocrites and liars in elective government(and their lobbyists), and telling this movement they have good reason to abandon Alex Jones and leave him to his own desires is child's play, compared to battling for the souls of men who have been sucked into the ecumenism by fair speeches of celebrity baptists and PhD toting theologans who love the praise of men, and please men, and massage each other's ego for filthy lucre's sake at conference after conference all over America.

Every nation in the world is a disaster without Christ: and this movement had it's chance while a learned Christian Statesman was it's focus; now it's ill-guided anger, and man-fostered vengeance they seek...they don't need God....and until they do, it's victory for those who will pit them against each other, make merchandise out of them, and laugh as they put the chains upon one another.

ecorob's picture

It is a battle between good and evil...

who would deny that?

its 'cos I owe ya, my young friend...
Rockin' the FREE world in Tennessee since 1957!
9/11 Truth.

Unfortunately many PRETEND to represent Christ falsely.

If you want to know who Christ is go read your bible.

Do not trust a man to tell you who Christ is and who he is not.

If you seek Him He will find you.

Let no one be your intercessor to God but Christ his son.

No preacher, priest, pastor, etc has the capacity to be your intercessor with God.

Those who try either think that they are God and / or they certainly don't really believe in and fear God at all.

In either case you are following the condemned if you seek God by any other means than Christ His Son.

.

Thoughts on authority

What about when Jesus told Peter that he was the rock that Jesus would build the church on?

What about when Jesus told the disciples that they have the power to loose and bind sins?

In the Catholic faith, yes we have a Pope that helps us interpret scripture, along with the Magisterium of bishops. They don't instruct us in a vacuum, with no reference to scripture. Tradition and scripture go hand in hand. To me, it seems more arrogant to just dismiss over two thousand years of experience and only trust in the mere 40 or so years I've lived to make all of my religious determinations.

Yes, it is important to come to a personal understanding of what Jesus' teachings mean in one's own life. We learn the 10 commandments, but it is usually personal experience of the consequences of breaking them that brings home the idea "God knows what He's talking about when He gave us these rules." There is a place for taking teaching from authority, and there is a place for personal experience to inform teachings that we get from authority.

A thought or two about Mary. Doesn't it make sense that Jesus would want us to honor His mother? Doesn't it make sense that she is special to Him and that maybe He would give special ear to her requests to Him? God set up families, did He not? Our experience of them in this life doesn't change in the next. The special ties are still there, and even intensified. How many times in our own families might a child who has done something wrong go to his mom and say "Hey, can you talk to Dad for me and help me cushion the blow a little bit?"
Just trying to make the point that the idea of intercession is not as baseless as you might think.

Look, I agree there are entities out there who misrepresent who God is and what He wants us to do in the political realm. Individuals and groups do so to get money from us and try to pretend there's a difference between the parties that way. I used to think the R's were the more in line with Christianity, though I know better now.

Just wanted to put forth some thoughts in favor of authority in its *rightful* place, and perhaps a warning against rejecting *all* authority in favor of following only one's own thoughts and feelings
about who God is. Even when you think you are following scripture, sometimes more is needed to gain a full understanding of what you read. God knows this about the human mind, which is why He chose a human rock to build His church on, and not just have us rely on a book.

Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Mary, Our Mother, protect us under your mantle.

You testify against yourself. You do not need the Pope.

Find the word "Pope" in the bible? It is not there. You are adding to scripture, this is bad for you.

Find the word "Priest" in the New Testament? Christ is the final priest to end all priests. You are adding to scripture, this is bad for you.

Find the word "Catholic" in the bible? It is not there. You are adding to scripture, this is bad, very bad for you.

Is the Lord's prayer not enough for you that you must pray to Mary? You are adding to scripture, this is bad, very bad for you.

The problem for you is that what is in the bible is not enough for you so you go along with those who add to scripture. You do this while at the same time denying and ignoring other scripture that condemns you for it or that is not convenient, flattering of or politically correct per your understanding or denomination.

.

You did not answer what I asked

Jesus giving power to the disciples to bind and loose sins *is* in the bible. That was not a one-time occasion, but a continuing faculty. What is your answer to that?

What did Jesus mean then when He said to Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church?" What is your answer?

Look at how much division has happened in the Christian church because so many people want to believe they can go by their own interpretation alone of scripture? Perhaps that is what God was trying to avoid by establishing a body of human beings to help discern what the Holy Spirit tells us about interpretation of scripture?

Does Mary deserve honor as Jesus' mother or doesn't she? Okay, "Honor your father and mother" is in the bible. Jesus gave his mother to John at the foot of the cross, and John to her. According to Catholic interpretation, by extension, she became the spiritual mother *of us all* in that moment.

Is she in heaven or isn't she? If she is there, does she not communicate with her son in heaven? Do those in heaven stop caring about us when they get to heaven? Are our brothers and sisters in the Lord, the Saints, totally uncaring toward us? Do they have no communication with Our Lord? I'm not talking about praying to Mary (or the saints) in the same way we pray to God. I pray to God in the hope He will answer my prayer. If I talk to Mary, I ask her to *add* her prayer to mine. I don't see her as a granter of prayers, because only God alone has the power to grant prayers. I do, though, see her as a mother who tries to help her children (via adding her prayers to ours), as long as what her children are asking for does not go against God's will.

You say that Christ is the priest to end all priests. His sacrifice on Calvary *was* the last sacrifice needed for the expiation of our sins. The thing is, that sacrifice is made present to all generations through the Mass. These are not *new* sacrifices, but enactments of that sacrifice on Calvary. It's in the bible - "Do this in remembrance of me." So Jesus told His disciples to continue making his sacrifice present via bread and wine, which become His Body and Blood. That is what today's priests do. They stand "in persona Christie" to help all generations be present in a mystical way at the sacrifice at Calvary.

You are right, the bible is not enough for us human beings to experience our faith fully. God made us humans with senses. We depend on sight, hearing, touch. God knows our need for physical affirmation of the spiritual, and so He gave us physical signs of His grace. That is what baptism by water is all about. We have been given the physical sign of water on our head to help us grasp the spiritual washing away of original sin. We have been given the physical bread and wine hosts of Christ's mystical Body and Blood to help us participate in Christ's sacrifice. God knows humans have a need to hear words of forgiveness, which is why He gave the apostles the power to say them. And all of these signs of grace are biblical - I'm not making them up.

Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Mary, Our Mother, protect us under your mantle.