20 votes

I believe the strength of the Liberty movement is in Christ

Highly recommend this incredible series:

http://youtu.be/mpLtwILsW3E

Would sure love some more of you guys to wake up to the fact that what is happening in this world is a spiritual war between God and Satan.

The Liberty movement will only prevail when it is backed by Christ, who is in fact its author. Without Christ libertarianism is vague and weak, witness the performance of Gary Johnson's God-free campaign.

With Christ, we cannot fail.




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I have no need

of mythology to convince me of the beauty and righteousness of liberty. Doesn't matter whether God is battling Satan or Zeus is stepping on the Titans or Batman is pushing the Joker around. None of these stories have any bearing on reality. As stories they are interesting and at least seem to carry some useful lessons but I don't need a man in a white robe in the sky, whether he carries a sword or a lightning bolt, to tell me what is moral.

In fact, as long as any significant number of people continue to believe that someone else owns them I don't believe we will achieve a truly free society.

Never

I am extremely libertarian.
I am extremely agnostic.
If this movement, which alienates me more by the day by the way, goes any more religious than it is, I'm out. I refuse to adhere to your religion and I expect you to refuse to adhere to mine. Leave it out of politics.

The reason that the Republicans suck so bad is because they are stuck pandering to the religious right instead of actually addressing issues that matter. And, it's working because as far as I can tell, they've got upwards of 50% of this movement by the danglies.

Even Ron Paul had to pander to the religious right to get that abortion vote. Think about it.

“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

Religious people

are just more vocal. Don't worry about it too much. Liberty makes room for everybody, but it also makes room for us. Besides, they have to deal with differing minds from time to time too. It's part of being tolerant.

I'm a christian and I

I'm a christian and I agree.

Don't leave...

"No physical quantity explains it's own existence, and no amount of time can consume an infinite series of events to bring you to the present, which means all of these somewhere have to be explained by one self-existent cause which is not physical."

I would agree that Jesus was

I would agree that Jesus was sort of a libertarian but that does not mean you have to accept or even believe in "Christ". Jesus was also a sort of a "communist". No religion is needed in order to respect the property of others. All that is needed is respect and acceptance. Other than that religion is irrelevant.

Until people recognize that

Until people recognize that Christ is King of the world in a very real sense (not in some kinda allegorical sense), that he has a legitimate claim to ownership over my person and property, that he has given personal stewardship over my body (his temple) and his property to me (and no one else, especially government), that submission to God is always a voluntary and free choice, since we are created in the image of a free God, that lasting change can only come by means of persuasion (i.e. evangelism) & sanctification of the heart by the Spirit, that we live in a Biblical theocracy whether people accept it or not, that any earthly "theocracy" set up by man is unbiblical, tyrannistic and humanistic since it places man in the place of God as Judge, Lawgiver, and King.... Until these things happen, full liberty will not be achieved.

Reading the writings of the men who inspired our Founders, even the Deistic ones recognized that all liberty was a fruit of our Creator.

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

How about reality, CSA?

You wrote:

Until people recognize that Christ is King of the world in a very real sense...

OK, where is his throne? Where does he hold court? Where and how does he collect taxes? Where is his army and how are they equipped? What does he do to put down rebellion? What does he do to stop factions and schisms among his people? What does he do to stop corruption? Where are his treasures?

For any REAL king on the planet, present or past, you'd be able to answer these questions with a very small amount of research. So if Jesus is indeed the King of this world "in a very real sense", then please explain why his reality is so very, very different from the reality of any other king to which anyone may point.

You continued:

"...we live in a Biblical theocracy whether people accept it or not..."

Please describe to me the features of this "Biblical theocracy". Where is its seat of power? Where is it described/prescribed in the Bible? Who is in power? What is the routine for the succession of power? And if we are in a "Biblical theocracy", why does it APPEAR that we are in a mercantilist oligarchy that's operating in the guise of a constitutional republic?

I don't think you have a very firm grasp on reality.

Isaiah 33:22 "For the Lord is

Isaiah 33:22 "For the Lord is our judge; the Lord is our lawgiver; the Lord is our king; he will save us." = Judicial branch, Legislative Branch, Executive branch

"Where is his throne?"

Psalm 11:4 "The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man."

Psalm 103:19 "The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all."

Isaiah 66:1 "Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool"

Matthew 23:22 "And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it."

Hebrews 8:1 "Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven"

"Where does he hold court?"

Psalm 9:8 "and he judges the world with righteousness; he judges the peoples with uprightness."

Psalm 50:6 "The heavens declare his righteousness, for God himself is judge!"

Psalm 58:11 "Mankind will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely there is a God who judges on earth.”

Romans 2:3 "Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?"

II Timothy 4:1 "I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom..."

II Timothy 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

Hebrews 12:23 "to the assembly [the Church] of the firstborn [Jesus, firstborn from the dead] who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect"

Hebrews 13:4 "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous." (notice the complete absence of a "state" between God and mankinds' marriages)

James 4:12 "There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"

I Peter 2:23 "When [Jesus] was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly."

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."

"Where and how does he collect taxes?
God doesn't use force to extract wealth that he owns but gives us stewardship over. Christians seeking to act as God acts give freely to the poor and do not seek to steal from some in order to give to others. States only survive by taxation because states have no innate ability to produce anything of itself. God has no such limitations on production and has no need to extract our wealth. He commands us to give generously to others.

Where is it described/prescribed in the Bible Who is in power?

His Kingdom, his governance, his Lordship, etc is described throughout the Scriptures, a fraction of which I have listed here. God alone has power. He gives man stewardship over his earth (property - see Gen 1:28-30) and gives government stewardship over the administration of justice between men, and justice alone (Romans 13; Proverbs 29:4 "By justice a king builds up the land, but he who taxes heavily tears it down" - Proverbs 8:15,16 "By [wisdom] kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; by [wisdom] princes rule, and nobles, all who govern justly")

Where is his army and how are they equipped?

Every Christian is a soldier of God. We fight with love, correct ideas, persuasion, the Word of God because weapons of war does not create lasting change for the better.

Ephesians 6:13-17 "Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,"

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”"

II Corinthians 10:3-5 "For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,"

What does he do to put down rebellion?
People have been rebelling against him since Creation. His solution is to freely invite them back with mercy and forgiveness. Those who don't will be destroyed in the last day.

Daniel 9:9 "To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him"

II Corinthians 5:18,19 "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling[b] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." (reconciliation just means restored relationship)

Even those who rebel will eventually honor God as King on the last day
Romans 14:11 "for it is written,“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”"

God's patience will run out.
Romans 2:4,5 "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed."

What does he do to stop corruption?
He freely lets people choose to be wrong. Christians also must allow people to choose to be wrong. We can persuade and teach, but we cannot use force, even the force of a state.

Romans 1:28 "Since they did not see it worth it to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done."

Where are his treasures?
Matthew 6:20 "but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"

Please describe to me the features of this "Biblical theocracy"
I've described a lot of details of this theocracy, but in a nutshel: God rules whether or not people believe it. On the last day, everyone will believe it. Our submission to him is voluntary and from the heart. Christ is King and there is no one who will succeed him

Luke 1:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David" (The throne of David over ancient Israel is a common image of God's throne over New Israel, the Church.. aka The Kingdom of God. The only people who exist after the last day will be those citizens of New Israel)

Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom."

Hebrews 12:12 "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

And if we are in a "Biblical theocracy", why does it APPEAR that we are in a mercantilist oligarchy that's operating in the guise of a constitutional republic?
Because we live in a fallen world where people are evil.... Now is the time of God's patience. God's judgment will remove kingdoms of this world.

But even despite the world's rebellion, God judges in the hear and now as well as in the Last Day. The books of Isaish, Amos, as well as many others express how God judges nations. I believe economic law is a very real way that God judges people. When peoples try to take care of the poor by means of theft, more poverty is created. When currencies are based on fraud, they collapse. When nations seek strength by the sword, their militaries will fail.

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, CSA.

You answered my question thus:

Question: "And if we are in a "Biblical theocracy", why does it APPEAR that we are in a mercantilist oligarchy that's operating in the guise of a constitutional republic?

Answer: "Because we live in a fallen world where people are evil.... Now is the time of God's patience. God's judgment will remove kingdoms of this world."

So in our "fallen world", a God who is REALLY present and active and involved is ABSENT AND INACTIVE AND UNINVOLVED?

Since when is God's nature dependent upon the actions of mankind?

You just spent an awful lot of time looking up Bible verses to prove an unreality. If God is present here, then kindly produce him. Let us go together to see him. Or tell me where to send him a latter.

You have no idea why I wrote to you. It was on a matter of reality. You said that Jesus is a king in a very real way and my questions pointed out that in NOT ONE SINGLE WAY is his kingship like a real kingship upon the earth. My point was obvious, yet you missed it during the whole hour it took you to look up those passages.

Clearly, if God cares one iota how the earth is governed, he has most certainly left himself out of it. And if you think he really governs the affairs of man, then:

1. You cannot produce him.
2. He's doing a TERRIBLE job.

It is fascinating that you, and so many other believers like you, have such a low view of God's abilities as to charge him with being the manager of this messy planet. You don't even realize the insult you create for God. You're too blinded by your religion to notice the obvious.

If God has a human appointee in government anywhere on the earth today, please tell me:

1. Who it is.
2. How he got appointed.
3. What are the qualifications for the job.
4. What are the rule of succession in that job.

And if God has NO human appointees, then kindly tell me how in the world he gets anything done here.

Jack

You make some very common,

You make some very common, and good points. A few of your accusations are even brought up in the Scriptures.

First your charge that God is absent, inactive and uninvolved:
The way we know God to exist is when he acts. When he created the earth, that was very much an involvement. That there was indeed a "Creation" is evident in a whole host of scientific laws, of which I'm sure you understand is another GIANT topic that we probably won't agree on today. But just consider the implications of Newton's 2nd law of thermo... that all matter is moving towards disorder...Einstein's further development of that to prove that the universe is expanding... It's scientifically proven that there was a beginning. It's also scientific law that nothing happens without a cause...

When God brings down unjust nations, he is acting in the affairs of the world. He has acted in this manner for centuries, but was very explicit about it in the Old Testament. That there were prophesies of these actions hundreds of years before they occured it is good evidence that they were indeed his actions. When individuals handle a little money in a Biblically sound, wise, and more way and then God blesses that with natural fruit of abundance, he's acting. When a fiat monetary unit based on deception and theft collapses, God is bringing justice towards those who would try and break his natural laws.

Perhaps there is no better evidence than that of the Resurrection of Christ himself. That's pretty involved.

But I would also suggest that when God's people do what is right out of a motivation to obey God, God is acting through them, not miraculously, but acting none the less. The very nature of the Church when it is referred to as "the Body of Christ" and Christ is referred as the "Head of the Church" is describing that is is the Church's job to be doing the work of God. When Christ called Paul on the road to Damascus, he didn't save him right there on the spot, but rather told him to go into the town where a local Christian would teach him. II Corinthians 5:20 "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." He doesn't act in a more direct way because then we would have no choice but to believe him... God wants us to choose him. That's foundational in any definition of love. He's very involved by means of his gospel and the actions of those doing his will.

But that does not mean that God's nature is dependent on man. When Christians do what is wrong, God is not the one doing wrong, rather is frail men departing from God desires and his nature. Romans 3:3,4 "What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, 'That you may be declared right in your words, and prevail when you are judged.""

The verses that found were to show that he indeed does have real kingship in that he judges, legislates, and reigns. That earthly kings use their offices for means of taxation, warfare, conquest, enslavement, and management of other peoples' lives and thus does not look like the Kingship of Jesus just highlights that earthly kings are the ones that are frauds. Christ's kingdom is "not of this world," so why should his kingship look like an earthly king?

I don't think you'll find a Scripture describing a "human appointee" in government on earth. Catholics might believe the pope is one, but I would disagree and would say such an appointment is unbiblical. Any man who sets himself up as having the authority of God on earth is a usurper and a tyrant. And, as I said, God gets stuff done when his citizens freely do his will.... This is why decentralization of power is so critical, because power has already been centralized in heaven any centralization on earth is usurpation.

"You must be frank with the world; frankness is the child of honesty and courage...Never do anything wrong to make a friend or keep one...Above all do not appear to others what you are not" - Robert E. Lee, CSA

CSA, why are we having this discussion?

You wrote:

...Christ is King of the world in a very real sense...

Then I pointed out (by way of several questions) a significant number of ways that Christ's current involvement with this world is wholly unlike any king known to history or the present. The you didn't say, "Oh, I understand; I meant something else." Instead, you forged ahead with argument after argument in support of Jesus' kingship, as if not one of the points I raised was obvious.

So why are we discussing this? If you think I am ignorant in these matters and that this is a chance to "share your faith", I can assure you that I'm quite well versed in the Bible.

So why are we discussing a ridiculous assertion and the defense of it?

Further, you assign the downfall of nations to God's hand. You base this on historical accounts of God punishing nations. Please provide me a verse that says that God would continue on as he did from Moses to the First Century in national judgments. Do you have even ONE prophecy that such judgments would continue after God smashed Israel in 70 AD?

If not, what evidence do you have that God is acting now as before? Does he send prophets to warn these nations as before? If so, where are their writings---and the accompanying miracles?

Further, your whole model of Jesus' kingship on the earth is awfully fuzzy. It seems to be a voluntary model of government in which there are no fast positions, but if enough people volunteer to be ardent believers, Jesus will somehow use them to get things done.

But things are NOT getting done. What style of government is this, CSA? SOMEBODY has to take out the trash or the society will fail. You can't have a government without boots on the ground, else the trash never gets taken out. so if you can't point to those boots and the people in them, then you can't point of a government of Jesus.

It's just that simple.

Jack

Amen!

Think you pretty much nailed it!

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Jesus is my Libertarian hero.

Jesus is my Libertarian hero.

My God, what a troll! He would walk right into the snake pit and defang the serpents. Nobody was immune to him. He left people speechless and impotent. His very presence was a provocation. He was so dangerous to covetous and greedy men that ultimately he had to die, yet even that was exactly what he wanted. Everything they tried to do to stop him was like throwing gas on the fire.

Praise Jesus, the Great Redeemer, the ultimate Truther, the one who could set the world right side up.

Hallelujah!

Please don't try to Christianize a political movement.

The Founders understood that religion and government are both less corrupt if they remain separate. The Great Awakening did not come in the form of a political crusade, but, in it's wake the diverse American colonists united, threw off Great Britain and experienced one of the purest experiments in freedom and self-government in history.

I'm convinced that America's problems are primarily spiritual in nature and that only another Christian revival will resuscitate what America was and was meant to be. But, that will have to happen first in the churches.

Plus, you can't expect non-Christians to want to join a Christ-centered movement. That's why the Moral Majority went up in smoke.

Oh, and Gary Johnson lost because he was a third-party candidate.

No.7's picture

Perhaps now is the time to combine the two

With Libertarian Politics and Christian morality. Peace and Love while not enforcing Christian morality by law as the 1st Amendment tells us.

Perhaps this rEVOLution is a double edged sword for Liberty. God has to be a libertarian, He created us with free will.

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

It would be great if the two could be combined.

The Founding Fathers, even non-Christians like Benjamin Franklin recognized the superiority of Christian ethics above all other religious systems, "ancient and modern." But, those sentiments sprouted up from the culture that had been shaped by true Christian revival.

The culture has to change first. Most people who are concerned first and foremost on fulfilling the desires of the flesh are not going to be that interested in libertarianism. Statists are good at trading free pleasure for loyalty to the state. That's impossible for live-and-let-live libertarianism to compete with.

Thank you

I've been waiting to hear someone else say what I had on my mind.

I completely agree with your premise that they should be separate and personally, I'm really tired of every issue getting twisted in with religion. I feel like I'm visiting with my gay friend who has to mention that he's gay somehow in every sentence - just wanna tell him to give it a rest because it's unrelated and annoying!

My point is that..

....the success of the Liberty movement IS related to this. All throughout history, wherever Liberty has prevailed, what is the common thread? Christianity.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

What about

when Moses said, "Pharaoh, let my people go". This was before Christ's time.

What about the Monk's in Tibet?

What about the Viet Namese when we invaded them over a false flag in the Gulf of Tompkin?

Liberty would lose alot of followers if they were made to follow under the Flag of the Red Cross.

My opinion is that it is best to keep Liberty about people and not about Christ or any other perceived or accepted Deity. If God gave us these rights as a people, then as a people we should claim these rights. Religious beliefs have been the foster of too much war and death in the time of humans.

It's cool to find or support your faith through Liberty, but let it not be our sponsor or ranks will split. That is a guarantee.

We the PEOPLE. Not, "we the Christians"

New Ammunition Listing Starting July 24th 2014 - Components are Back In Stock! www.ammopit.com

Reasonable sentiments

But let me point out one thing: the Buddhists lost! Bigtime!

With Moses as with Christians, God rewards the righteous.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

That's a tough one.

I will not discount your premise outright - but what about when tyranny and attacks on Liberty occurred because of Christianity? (Naziism, Moussolini, the Crusades, Palestine right now, the British Empire, etc...) What about then Christianity was used to support collectivism that stripped rights? (the Bolshivek Revolution, American slavery, the "War on Terror", the Spanish "conquering" of the Americas)

Just because Christianity was the most popular religion in whatever cases you are pointing to, that does not make a correlation. Individual Liberty goes beyond religion, it must do that, otherwise it is not individual. I think that is probably at the core of my disregard for your argument, collectivism versus individual liberty.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

Valid points, for sure

However most importantly, Christianity is spiritual collectivism (if you like), NOT political collectivism, at all. The spiritual kingdom of Christ is an individual choice to enter into, and can only ever be. So political coercion and collectivism of any kind is always against God, as it is trying to force people to have an allegiance other than to Christ. Even non-Christians can recognize that true Christians must demand Liberty.

Also, in terms of whether any of these regimes were Christian:

Nazism, Mussolini, Bolshevism, all totally atheistic! Not Christian at all. In fact if you watch this great series you can see that they were all in fact satanic.

Others you mention are various forms of misappropriation of Christ's name for tyranny and oppression. As above, this is simply not Christian, it is exactly opposite to what Christ actually said! If you stick to that, you can't go wrong. For example, the 'War on Terror' also calls itself 'American'. Is that really American? Or are they just saying that. You have to look at how Christ actually taught us to live our lives, and whether these people and regimes are in any way following those teachings. If not, they are only using his name to perpetrate crimes and evil. True Christains, MUST be peaceful to others and against all coercion, to serve their Lord.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Interesting....

So, if "real" Christianity is an individual and spiritual choice, how can it, or could it, ever be the basis for law, for government? That is a self-defeating stance.

Your, "totally atheistic, dude" claim is not supported by facts. Quite the opposite in fact. Your claim that they are satanic might be valid, but the followers, the citizenry that did their bidding, was Christian. The propaganda put out by those in power used Christianity and Christian faith to further their aims. Whether or not they were being deceitful isn't the matter. The Christian people, who by your own definition, were in a spiritual state of individual liberty and still chose to carry out acts of horror and evil.

The old "they aren't real Christians" argument is moot. It is used by many competing cults/sects based not on reason or arguments, but pride. I'm sure there are people here with a 180 degree version of Christianity that have said the exact same thing about you. And, simply, there is no way to decide who is correct, for there is no criteria outside of emotion and claims of visitation by a deity.

The "War on Terror" is not American at all, and I've never heard it referenced in that way. No, the "War on Terror" is a purely religious aspect of our life. It is our young men getting killed and wounded to spread Christianity and/or kill the infidels as the Bible commands. It is that simple. (even though most people won't admit it).

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

Well, honestly

your denial of Nazism (Nietzsche, anybody? "God is dead. We have killed him." Ring any bells?) and Communism ("Religion is the opiate of the masses" - Marx) being atheistic and profoundly against God, and the war on terror not relying on American nationalism, make me think you are not being truly earnest in your criticisms and are just trolling. If not you honestly need to do more historical research. Watching the amazing series linked in the OP would be a great place to start.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Oh, earnest I am

Naziism was not based on Nietzsche in any way - so that is an apples to oranges fallacy.
Communism, more specifically Stalinist Sovietization, was based on Marx, but was far from what Marx laid out as his system - that doesn't hold up either. They did eventually get rid of organized religion - but that was based on maintaining power and not competing with the Catholic Church. The people were not atheists at all. I have seen many propaganda pieces put out by the Bolsheviks that encourage a labor revolt based on Christianity and they emphasized to the people that their revolt was based on support from God. So no, not at all "profoundly against God".
I didn't say that the War on Terror did not rely on American nationalism - of course that is part of it. But, it is also demonstrable that the driving principle in the minds of a vast majority of the people is to kill Muslims because they believe in the wrong magic sky daddy. If you are not aware of that, then you have not made objective observations of our nation for over a decade now.
Finally, I have been here for over 5 years and have always tried to make arguments based on history and facts and reason. I did not make an ad hominem claim against you personally - I cannot fathom how you could label me as a troll.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

SteveMT's picture

What about the time when Christianity...

was the common thread and Liberty did not prevail, at least not very easily? I'm sure that you already know that sad case of man's indignity to his fellow man. What I'm saying is that it may be better not to mix politics and religion. People killing in the name of God is difficulty to stop.

Quotes from the same tyrant:

"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."

"The Government of the Reich, which regards Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attaches the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See [Vatican City], and is endeavoring to develop them."

A more likely common thread is open information

The entire world once believed that the Earth was flat. That lasted until science proved it not to be. Does that mean that everything based on a flat Earth prior to that discovery should be critiqued in that light? No.

Many things and beliefs changed the instant that event became the new norm. As a result, many new ideas an concepts became possible. No longer were people limited to one way to make something work - they were now free to base other beliefs on relevant facts.

In the same way, science in the last century (more likely in the last 3-4 decades) has made similar strides in how the universe works. It now can explain every or nearly every aspect of our universe (depending on which theories one subscribes to). Unfortunately, just like we all have known all our lives that certain miracles are impossible, we now have viable explanations that suggest all religion is a population control hoax. Even on this site, we frequently discuss how this conspiracy or that one is a population dividing technique or a control structure of some kind. Yet even watching for those to appear, so many can't even rationally discuss the possibility that religion is the same thing.

Sorry. Just because there seems to be a correlation for all history (prior to science providing a valid explanation), doesn't mean there's any causation.

What if, on the other hand, human nature had been relabeled as something different by society as a result of banks imposing prosperity scarcity on the entire system? What if, with abundance replacing that, what we think of as human nature simply morphs on its own into the morality and ethics that people now only attribute to some religion? What if without that religion, that abundance eliminated all the problems that arose from people constantly segregating each other into groups? What if the resulting non-group population began to use the genuine human nature to live by genuine altruism as their agenda?

Science was a long time in catching up with God's word.

Job 26:7-10
7He [God]stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.] 8[He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them. 9He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it. 10He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

Proverbs 8:27-28
27When he [God] prepared the heavens, I [wisdom] was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Pythagoras was four centuries behind Solomon and about 12 behind Job.

I have no idea what that rambling means

.

I will work for Liberty with you

but uh, I hope you don't want to kick me out if I decline your summation.

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