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A difficult question for my fellow Catholics in faith.

I'm a life long Catholic. It is my faith. It will remain my faith.

I'm sure you're aware of the Vatican document, "Toward Reforming the International Financial and Monetary Systems in the Context of Global Public Authority," that was released in 2011 that recommended items such as forming a global government, creating a world bank, and redistributing wealth through out the entire world of nations. See Catholic News Story for specifics: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1104173.htm

I realize that humans have frailties and the church is made up of men. I've always understood that Jesus mistrusted the government and that men are instructed to do good out of free will, and not by force.

It pains me to ask this, but my question to you is, how are you able to reconcile your faith with that which we believe to be true about freedom and all that freedom entails?



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You answered your own question...

"I realize that humans have frailties and the church is made up of men."

I'm a protestant, and there are plenty of evil men who call themselves protestants, just as there are evil men who call themselves Catholics.

I don't place church leaders on a pedestal, they are men just as I am a man, and they are just as fallible as any other man.

Trust in God, not in men.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

'Slave to no sect ...'

Independence ordained:

 The reference in the Declaration of Independence to "the laws of nature and of nature's God" appears to be borrowed from Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man, epistle iv, line 331: "Slave to no sect, who takes no private road, But looks through Nature up to Nature’s God"; Pope, in turn, may have borrowed it from a letter to Pope by Henry, Viscount Bolingbroke St. John, who praised the modesty of "[o]ne follows Nature and Nature’s God; that is, he follows God in his works and in his word"

http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_...

Thus, some Popes, it seems, are beings bearing infallible lightness; some just shit in the woods.

http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/1940462

Catholics

They will end up losing much wealth to confiscation I think. The socialists and atheists and marxists will see to that. But then again Catholic priests and people are unabashedly ignorant of history from my experiences.

donvino

The Church has been infiltrated and

is under attack from within. Bella Dodd, a communist leader who converted revealed that the commies sent agents into the seminaries to attack the Church and these people are now in the hierarchy. That doesn't negate the dogma of the Faith. That is apart from the men who are trying to twist the Church into a secular state appendage (like that bunch at Notre Dame who honored the "abortion president" and are now whining about the obammunists forcing the Church to provide contraception, etc. to employees). There is a resurgence of orthodoxy and the old commies have been revealed for their secularism and are dying off. The relentless attacks on the Church reveal that the state still considers her a formidable obstacle to their plans. Read Thomas Woods, Jeffrey Tucker and other libertarian Catholics. That "social teaching" stuff is OK until they start advocating achieving it through state aggression, a global state, the UN, etc. But it isn't Church dogma.
I have a harder time with the lack of spirituality of the pristhood but maybe we have just had bad luck at our parish where I live. We have gotten selfish, lazy, arrogant, and money grubbing types who view the parishioners with contempt. I sometimes marvel at the faith of the people who keep coming to Mass in spite of some of the priests. Protestants don't seem to separate their faith from their pastors like Catholics do.

Convert to Orthodox Christianity

All of the Traditions, apostolic succession, mysteries, and history of the Church, none of the central government power hungry bureaucracy that the Roman church developed.

yes, its painful

I don't like it. I think it is dangerously naive. But it is not a dogmatic document so we can disagree. Debate is allowed on such things.

"At a news conference Oct. 24, the Vatican spokesman, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, emphasized that the document was "not an expression of papal magisterium," but instead was an "authoritative note of a Vatican agency," the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. In that sense, he said, it would not be correct to report that "Pope Benedict says" what's in the document, he said."

Vickie

I am a Catholic

But I dont take what the Church says to be my Gospel. I take the Gospel as my Gospel. Just because My family raised me Catholic doesnt mean I follow the church, well, religiously.

I take Jesus as the man he was, concentrating on his ministry and the lessons we can gleen from that. So often they focus on the crucifixtion, and while that is the most important, the more practical lessons of our daily lives can be found during the "ordinary" times section of the liturgical calendar. Ron Paul always speaks about Jesus and the Money Changers, which has become one of my favorite passages--and rings true as something that probably actually happened.

How do I reconcile my faith, however? Well, I just see it as simply admiring a man who did the world so much good from a historical standpoint. He invented kindness. He made it cool to be a nice guy. I want to say I worship him, too. But somedays I find it difficult to capture my spiritual side when so often our world deals in practicalities. It pains me to not be spiritual, I used to be more spiritual in highschool(college now).

I dont like this idea of World anything from a political standpoint or for future prospects from a U.S. perspective, but the church for much of the 20th century and this one advanced itself charitably. Not as powerful, perse, but now more respected from a charity standpoint and seem to be genuinely concerned with doing good for people. Mainly because local churches have so many great leaders leading their communities. These people are active and great/kind people. I encourage you all to get involved in your local churches, which sounds hypocritical coming from me, but its a great place to spread the message of liberty with an organized structure already in place.

btw. i never understood why being Catholic is looked down upon from protestants. being raised in a Catholic school we were never taught any ill-will towards our fellow denominational christians. in fact I admire some denominations rigorous scholarly view of the gospel. And Martin Luther's On Liberty almost made me a convert, but I didnt want to upset my mother(a devout catholic) for something that was not necessary.

become a Latin Mass Catholic

in addition the way the Vatican sees it, is if there is global Goverment, they would be the official religion.

May question to you is? What do you think freedom entails?

The Israelites gave up freedom for a king like the others, Samuel warned them of things to come, but said this:

1 Samuel 12:14,15

14. If ye will fear the Lord, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the Lord your God:
15. But if ye will not obey the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then shall the hand of the Lord be against you, as it was against your fathers.

Stay True to God and you will be blessed, don't and you will be cursed, he is basically saying. Just the same, our own founders warned us we must stay virtuous also:

“Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, They may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. They will only exchange Tyrants and Tyrannies.”

~ John Adams

Morality is in the heart of all, you don't have to be a Christians to obey God's laws. Our nation can be blessed. We, as a nation, have fallen astray of the virtues of God and you can see our power being stripped from us.

I often listen to the quote from MLK that says:

"Don't let anyone make you think, that God chose America to be His divine messianic force to be, a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgement and it seems that i can see God saying to America 'You're to arrogant, if you don't change your ways, I will rise up, and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even know my name. Be still and know that I'm God'

All of these quotes, apply to any and everything. We must hold true in our hearts until Christ returns. That is our mission, even if others stray from it, including our fellow Christians.

The answer is simple but not necessarily easy

In any organization you have th choice to reform it or leave it if you disagree with policy. If you adhere to the faith but your leaders let you down by establishing policies that contradict the faith you can follow blindly or push for reform. If it is important enough to you you will push for reform. If not you will go along with what the leaders do that the founder(s) dsiagree with.

In this case the founder was Jesus Christ who was reported to be distinctly anti-bankers.

I think it's a matter of true authority

I see nothing in the article to make us think that this document has any real authority behind it. It is created by men who do not have the authority from God to dictate what the entire Church should believe.

I am not Catholic, I am LDS (mormon). I don't know much about catholicism, so I may be wrong in assuming that just because a document came out of a particular place that it doesn't have the "Thus Saith the Lord" kind of stamp of approval. But I do know that in my faith, when people who do not have the authority of the prophet try to assume that kind of authority, they are being unrighteous.

I have always been taught to pray about matters that concern me. I can do this even if the prophet himself says something that I don't feel comfortable with. If I don't feel good about it, I have the right to study it out and go to God Himself in prayer, trusting that the Lord would answer my prayer. I don't have to take it all in blind faith, even if I do believe that the Lord would not lead our prophet astray.

Basically, I'd take anything less than what the current Pope says with as much salt as is called for. Sure, a global economy would be great and so on if the one directly in charge was Christ himself, but He isn't back on earth just yet. It is dangerous to put so much power and money in the hands of anyone other than Christ, not to mention probably unrighteous (the entire "putting our trust in the strength of men" kind of thing). I seriously recommend praying about it, believing that you will receive your answer.

I hope this helps, even if I'm not Catholic and so don't understand everything.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

Did you feel

that Mormons were blindly voting for Romney this past election based on his religion?

Yes for the primaries, no for the generals

Maybe it has to do with being a minority, or maybe it has to do with culture and tradition. It is pretty complicated. For example, my mom fully supported him because she felt he was a worthy priesthood holder, and she really wanted the power of God to be in the White House (which sounds scary to plenty of people, I know, but really, what else short of God's power can change the direction this country is heading in? She wasn't wanting Mormon global dominion or have religious law trump constitutional law: she wanted to save this country, felt that only inspiration from God's power could do it, and that meant supporting a priesthood holder.) In her mind, she wasn't voting for Romney; she was voting for the priesthood.

It is hard to be unbiased when you know you are a minority, you feel that your people are still being persecuted, and one of your own is running for president. I'm sure many of them didn't realize they were being biased: they genuinely thought of the best of Romney.

There is also a tradition in mormon culture that states that when the Constitution hangs by a thread, the elders (mormons) would step forth and save it. Mormons are a loyal, faithful bunch who love this country immensely, and they want to save it. The member never did not speak of that tradition out loud during this past election cycle, and I know that many of them tried to be unbiased, and nobody (as far as I know) EVER got in front of the pulpit and said "Vote Romney!" because it's against Church policy to dictate political matters from the pulpit (in fact, whenever Romney's name was brought up in church-related meetings and broadcasts and such, it was always to say that Romney's run was exposing the Church's name to more people, not to promote him above other candidates), but having been raised in the traditions I can assume what unspoken thoughts some of them may have had.

These reasons would explain why so many voted for Romney in the primaries. However, after the primaries most of these same members would have voted Republican anyway, regardless of who the nominee happened to be, and would have supported that nominee just as strongly as they had for Romney. Many mormons, counting themselves as christians, relate to the rest of the Christian culture in the US, and so many are not more well-versed in liberty than your typical Christian. If a party is pro-abortion, anti-marriage, anti-2nd amendment and pro-drug, it is immoral to support that party. (I am well aware of the double-standard. I'm doing my best to guide my family and friends into seeing that were is more to moral politics than these exact issues.)

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

I think...yes

Not just based on his being Mormon, but also that he ran on the republican ticket. They had the Ron Paul option, and clearly Ron Paul was the true republican out of the R candidates. Romney was once a democrat and many of his policy stances are considered liberal. So I have to conclude that Mormons voted Romney primarily based on his religious faith. I'm Mormon and every Mormon I personally know (besides myself) voted for Romney. I tried to get several of them to take a look at RP and they were not interested.

I am not a Catholic

But I am a Christ follower.

I dont see the Church as an organization but a union of individuals and Christ, and then these individuals gather together for community and worship and instruction.

I understand Catholics see this issue differently but I just wanted to share my 2 cents.

You pose an excellent question and I am encouraged that people still think about and contemplate important issues.

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."

Protestants and Catholics united

I have to say, it's not just the Catholic Church doing this type of work. If you've ever read the book "Collectivism in the Churches" by Edgar C. Bundy, you'd go into shock.

I had commented at an R & G club once while there was discussion about conceal carry laws. I mentioned a letter had been put together by local churches to the governor and legislature, it was advocating the anti-gun side of the issue. I mentioned how everyone there should be actively concerned about their church's teachings and activity. In one hand you donated your money to a church and on the other you donate to the NRA and the result you cancelled out. I mentioned how they are potentially donating to both sides of the issue.

Enjoy the read if you can find the book.

Have a blessed day.

The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
And those who have not heard shall understand.

Fr. Z explained that document best:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/the-new-white-paper-from-the-...

other than that, you will see a lot of Catholic leaders supportive of things that are contrary to liberty, but I generally see them the same way I see well-intentioned democrats, they are sincerely trying to help and unfortunately are thereby supporting unjust systems. as Catholics we need to let the principles of subsidarity and solidarity guide how we'd like to see society work, and our distinction as Catholics in the Liberty Movement from those well-intentioned things that may come out of the Vatican or from Bishops or priests or fellow laymen trying to apply solidarity from time to time is that we apply the non-agression principle to how we'd like to see solidarity and subsidarity work. there's a lot of value in the social encyclicals of the Church for anyone willing to go beyond just the fight against tyranny and really envision the type charitable world we'd like to live in, they obviously have a perspective tainted by statism, but through a prism of voluntarism the social doctrines of the Church are very valuable.

Tom Woods is probably the strongest Catholic voice in the Liberty movement, I'm not sure how much he puts out relating to religion specifically these days but I'm sure he's got a thing or two to say that would be helpful as well.

The Catholic Church has more than its share of liberal idiots.

We call the Creasters, or more appropriately selective Catholics. They are generally Catholic in name only, usually by family tradition. like most liberals, they are really a worshiper at the church of liberalism, any other association they may have comes secondary to that. If they ever attend mass it is at Christmas and Easter only. They see no issue whatsoever in coming to mass after supporting the most grevious forms of infanticide and other inhumane practices. Generally they are not very active charitiably, but rather would force "charity" by government action. Most of them that hold any sort of public role have been stripped of local authority, and had a good talking to by the priest. A good example would be former congressman Phil Hare (who attends my parish) who was stripped as a deacon after voting for pro-death legislation as a congressman. Most reacntly he was making a stink trying to get rid of a priest who was a little too bluntly pro-life in his preaching (i.e. pointing out that abortion is murder of a child and is definitely wrong and a violation of that childs civil rights).

These types were very active in the seminaries during the 60's and 70's as a wave of "new age Catholisism" swept through the church. This wave has been reversed, but many of these folks are still holding on at higher levels of the church (archbishop and up)especially in these sorts of papal committees. As I said though, the tide has turned since the middle of the 1990's when many of the traditionalists splintered off in disgust, and the pedophilia scandal exposed the fruits of the "anyhting goes in the church dogma" and caused some long overdue soul searching. Within another 20 years or so I expect these liberal elements will be largely flushed out of the church, and I see it as important that I do not leave these types uncontested to use the respect and authority of the church to push their liberal ideology. That is how I square my beliefs with the actions of these economically and historically illiterate fools who write gibberish like this in the name of the church.

Josh Brueggen
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Catholic or any other 501c so called church

Fronts for Rothschild zionist tactics.

The truth.

Saved by Grace through Faith. A devine gift. Freedom.

sovereign

Is the bible the constitution of Christianity?

I think that is a concept worthy to reflect upon. I think many large organized religions operate the same as large governments in regards to the constitution. If you believe the bible is analogous to Christianity as the constitution is to our government, then it may serve you to follow the same path of awakening. Ask questions, research. What in the bible gives authority to the church to do a, b, c etc.

And if you think it is bad to question authority, seems that wasn't a bad thing in biblical times.

The Bereans were considered noble for not just accepting what they were told, but questioning and researching. They didn't just take it for granted that even Paul was telling the truth.
http://bible.cc/acts/17-11.htm

Take away religion

and replace it with a realtionship with God through Jesus Christ.

I used to be Catholic but could not reconcile many of the rules and regulations the religion sets forth. Totally contradictory to the Word of God which teaches salvation is obtained through faith in Christ alone.

From John 6:28-29:

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

From the Council of Trent:

"If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification,...let him be anathema [i.e., condemned]." (H.J. Schroeder, trans., The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (Tan Books, 1978), 43.)

You are bound to man made rules and if you do not comply you are excommunicated: But if anyone should teach or maintain anything contrary to these decrees, let him be anathema." (H. J. Schroeder, O. P., The Canons And Decrees Of The Council Of Trent, Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1978, p. 216)

Where is the love of God in that? Break free and live.

The law cannot make a wicked person virtuous…God’s grace alone can accomplish such a thing.
Ron Paul - The Revolution

Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms. Ron Paul

You are not free without a

coherent philosophy of the world and life. Some think they can decide that for themselves and live according to their own rules, usually according to their own self interest. For all the complaints about "religion", it kept man for centuries from descending into the murderous chaos of slaughtering infants and children for convenience and to achieve power through fear. For all the evil in the world and failings of the Church Christianity has provided a powerful brake on the depravity men were willing to indulge in. We are witnessing the results of the removal of Christian morality and indoctrination of the population to state worship and might makes right in government schools.

umm, you miss the context of the council of trent.

The council was formed to determine what the official teachings of the church are/were. Of course if you don't want to adhere to the teachings of the church then you will not be allowed to associate yourself with the church (i.e. you will be excommunicated)this was to make sure people could not go around and teach any old thing in the name of the church as many were at the time. As for the justification for repentance requiring a priest, I think that is generally due to human nature. If you can simply forgive yourself you will never turn inward and examine your conscience. This leads quickly to never admitting you have done anything wrong. It is more a check on human nature than a law of god.

Josh Brueggen
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Precinct Commiteeman Precinct 5 Rock Island Co Illinois

That is why it is a cult.

Just like any other corporate church on the planet.

One mans cult

is another mans faith. I could say the same about any faith or belief you share with others.

I hate to sit where a free man should avoid but here i am in

AAMEN corner. Amen.

sovereign

Best Catholic website I've ever seen

Most Holy Family Monastery, a Benedictine comunity, has tons of info and videos and EVERYTHING and, from what I observed, these guys supported RON PAUL's presidential run!!
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/intro_and_about.php

They even have a youtube channel and in this one the Brother talks about the rigged elections
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OynCgwmD-HM&list=PLD841087C09...

Topics on their site include: Traditional Catholic Audios, Heresies of Vatican II, Antipopes, the invalid New Mass... and much more.

It will take you days to sort through it but it's fantastic and I'll always pass the site on to my Catholic friends whenever they begin to question what is up with the Church. Hope this helps you.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

No.

The Dimond Brothers are arrogant schismatic lunatics with a poor grasp of theology and history. They may have a good grasp of politics but they are a terrible source for spiritual edification.

EDIT: Reading the rest of the comment it seems that you agree with the rest of their material. I'm not having an argument about sedevacantism right now in the comment section.

It comes down to what your gut tells you

I had huge problems with things that were happening at my Church, so much so I stopped attending. When I read and watched the stuff on this blog things made sense to me. I don't pretend to know anything other than what my gut directs and I will always believe that 'feeling' is God's direction for me - personally. I believe God shows us what will bring us closer to Him - at that's all that counts.
I have no argument with you.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

Instead of running away

perhaps you should have stood up for your faith. By vacating the church you have left the tholigcal battlefield to be overrun by the crazy lefties. Luckily some stayed and fought, and the tide has been turned. Please consider returning to mass, and bring your conservative voice back into the conversation. The lefties still love to shout their version of chrisitanity, and we can always use more backup.

Josh Brueggen
Engineer
Entrepreneur
Gardener
Jack of all Trades
Precinct Commiteeman Precinct 5 Rock Island Co Illinois