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The Strength of the Liberty Movement Lies in Man!

I am continuously amazed here at the Daily Paul by those who shirk responsibility by relegating their responsibility for their own lives to a magic sky daddy. Here in the "liberty movement," we continually preach personal responsibility. If you want something, you earn it. We don't expect hard work to be done for us. We expect to do it ourselves.

Or, people consider themselves so powerless that all they can do is ask the invisible superhero to do things for them.

I am neither powerless, nor do I shirk my responsibility for my life.

To say that Christ is the author of the liberty movement and that without its backing we will fail is an extremely pathetic position. Do you want liberty? Work for it.

Gary Johnson's god-free campaign failed? Well, Barack Obama's god-free, pro-abortion, pro-women campaign wildly succeeded; and half of America doesn't even know whether or not he is Christian or Muslim.

If you need to seek strength in your own religion, fine. But, if you are here preaching Christianity as the way to freedom over Islam, or Atheism, or Agnosticism, or Satanism, then you don't understand freedom. Live and let live.

Peace.



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Great post my friend. Work

Great post my friend. Work hard and take responsibility.

Nothing substantial to add...

..just wanted to bump this so that it is above the sillier title that it mocks. If neither post were originated, I would not bother. But the mess is here and I feel obliged to help sort it out.

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I'm going to have to defer to the founding fathers on this one.

You may be a great guy, but in terms of the "strength" and "authority" of the liberty movement, you are simply not as credible or authoritative as the founding fathers were on this subject.

Whether you believe in a god or not, the simple fact is that the founding fathers completely disagree with you, right or wrong, for better or worse, YOU ARE DIRECTLY AT ODDS WITH THE FOUNDING FATHERS.

And here's the thing. It was the founding fathers who fought and died and put their honor, families and fortunes on the line for what THEY believed which is very different from what you believe.

So, while you may be a great guy and even a great libertarian, the simple fact is that your opinion on this subject is simply not authoritative.

Sorry.

Defer instead of think.....

There you go again, shirking your responsibility for actually thinking and just deferring to "authority".
The founders may very well be authorities on the Constitution AT THE TIME. The Constitution and surrounding law has significantly morphed and has been reinterpreted over and over - for better or for worse. I will leave judgments out for this response.
As far as being authorities on other topics...this topic was on personal responsibility versus handing over responsibility for yourself to some god. I'm pretty sure that none of the founders were clergymen or educated religious philosophers.
The fact that they advocated freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion showed how they valued liberty OVER their religions.
I am merely saying that religious beliefs are a personal choice, and pointing out the hypocritical contradiction between personal responsibility and asking and desiring and needing help from some authoritarian figure. We choose to believe whatever makes us feel good. Religion is unnecessary for liberty.

“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

Sorry, but the founding fathers disagree with you.

Of anyone to defer to, I couldn't think of anyone wiser than the founding fathers.

After them Ron Paul who happens to agree with me on this point, based on pretty much every word he's ever said.

So how does your thread

help the liberty movement? Please tell me that so people can grab something POSITIVE from this/you and MOVE FORWARD.

Lima-1, out.

If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

To each their own:)

I understand the people who preach religion and I understand the people who preach Atheism. They are both really just trying to help in the way that makes the most sense to them. Nobody can be forced into believing something so I think we're all good:)

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
-Thomas Paine

I love how when Christians

I love how when Christians here post their blatant prostelytizing, it's jsut a "difference of opinions" but when atheists post THEIR arguments, or when they respond to the christians, it's the atheists who are accused of creating some sort of rift and creating a "war on faith" or some such nonsense.

Faith started the war on reason a long time ago.

I've been banned from here

I've been banned from here for being an Atheist and arguing against religion. They don't take kindly to us folk round hur.

I want to see an Atheist post a thorough piece about...

Spirituality and freedom and this issue, not just a 'oh i'm so tired of Christians' and 'oh they cause everything bad' crap that gets us nowhere.

Lets have a discussion, not a slander fest.

I wrote something up on this subject - it's long winded and fairly bias - but I want to have this discussion because I think its important.

::::Post plug::::

http://www.dailypaul.com/270167/the-difference-between-trust...

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."

yea i saw this exact post

yea i saw this exact post when you posted it as a reply to the many proselytizing chrsitian threads on here. like the exact one this thread is a parody of.

except you didnt.

say what?

I posted a few replies on the other thread this one parodies and I wrote a long piece expressing my beliefs on this issue pointing out the differences and common ground that exists with this issue.

Please read and try to be constructive when you comment on it. Or better yet write a reply piece to my own and lets have a discussion.

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."

Edit it down to about 1/3 its

Edit it down to about 1/3 its size and youd get more hits/votes/comments.

It's not that I have an issue reading length, but I do have an issue with reading overly wordy things.

Human Action is over 1,000 pages, but arguably all of them are necessary and advance Mises' point. If he wrote it as a stream-of-consciousness rant it would probably be 3,000 pages.

the sad part is that I did edit down

I have a longwinded and wordy problem.

Thanks for the advice though - I am continualy working on being more to the point. I get what you are saying.

I included bullet points at the end for the short attention span crowd.

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."

i kinda read it and it seems

i kinda read it and it seems your point is about life having "value" without god...(you split "value" into 3 subcategories, but theyre all very similar.)

however I would ask you how belief in god would give MY life value from MY pov? after all, our difference in god-belief is merely a difference in what is. (namely: You believe that god is, I dont.)

Even if you were to convince me to come over to your factual claim, why should i value this god (that you recently convinced me exists) or give one squat about what he wants me to do with my life?

Before we even discuss how the value of ones life differes by believing in god or not, i think we need to properly understand what we mean by this concept of "value" in the first place.

there's a great line:
Value presupposes a valuer

Value is not some primary substance that exists (like mass), but rather it's a relative judgement that's made BY a valuer. We're both living our own lives based on what gives US more happiness. And we both are assuming that our own lives and our own happiness is the purpose of our own lives.

I will practice being concise:

1. To agree on a definition of value: when I speak of ‘value’ I liken it to the ‘value’ we think of when considering gold.

Gold has a limited supply, it cannot be replicated, and it is desirable.

Likewise for the individual life is limited, cannot be replicated and is desirable.

That’s what I mean by value.

2. Your life has value independent of your belief or disbelief in GOD. I would say the same thing about Freedom.

The value comes from the existence of GOD and the reality of His role in your personal creation.

If GOD is not real and the Bible is wrong, I would argue that individual life as well as Freedom would have a superficial meaning AT BEST.

3. I would say that you should value GOD because He first valued you by creating you and giving you free will, creativity, love, laughter, etc.

The logical answer to real love is to reciprocate it.

Then I would argue that He again showed that he values you by sending Christ to redeem you from your bad choices/sin/mistakes.

Then I would argue that you should care about what GOD wants you to do with your life because he wants to rescue you AND He wants the BEST possible life for you and tells you how to achieve it.

This is all of course predicated on the belief that GOD loves the individual and wants what is best for the individual as He shows throughout the Bible.

4. You say “value is not…substance…it’s a relative judgment that’s made by a valuer.”

I agree!

Only I see GOD as the lone valuer, which means He assigns the same equal value to ALL individual human life (as well as Freedom). I believe that His opinion is the only one that matters when assigning value to life and Freedom.

When a human individual is a valuer, they will always value their own life, but will they feel the same way about the 90-year-old stranger dying of cancer or the 7-year-old paraplegic? I don’t think so. And history has shown that this is often (not always) the case.

That’s why I believe using a relative judgment made by another human individual to assign value to either life OR Freedom is dangerous and cannot last; eventually death camps and other horrors appear.

Self-valuation presents a similar problem: I may decide that picking boogers and collecting them in a jar gives my life value and purpose, while nearly everyone else would say that my chosen path has no value or purpose at all. What happens when I don’t work, I don’t help the community, I don’t pay taxes, etc and all I do is pick boogers?

Because my life is not assigned value by some kind of worthwhile production or contribution (sounds kind of Communist to me), I could be deemed expendable along with the paraplegic.

The same principle applies to our Freedom. Freedom is mine not only because I say so, but because GOD gave it to me.

If my life and my Freedom come from GOD, they are guaranteed to ‘retain’ their value and cannot be destroyed or changed by some tyrant or government.

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."

ytc's picture

May I recommend RonPaul's chapter on "Religion and Liberty"

in his "Liberty Defined" book? (pp.242)

(Sorry for reposting this list, but I think this is very pertinent here.) RonPaul lists:
"Love... in the World's Great Religions" (p. 245),
"The Golden Rule... According to the World'sGreat Religions" (p. 246) and
"Peace in the World's Great Religions" (p. 247).

** I think the strength of our Liberty movement comes from *OUR* individual commitments to the universal virtues of Love, The Golden Rule and Peace. (And there are many traditions, individual philosophers & thinkers - religious & non-religious - that promote these virtues.)

Thank you

This is a good post. Thanks for that.

I would replace love with respect, but peace (non-aggression) unless self defense is required, and the golden rule are great universal rules.

“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

Michael Nystrom's picture

What's it to you what other people believe?

Why go attacking them, talking about how your way is so much better?

You know what I do when religious nuts try to push their belief on me? The same thing I do when atheist nuts try to push their beliefs on me. I slowly inch my way to the exit, then run like hell when I get there.

There is not much use in pontificating about one's beliefs. Why don't we stick to concentrating on the fruits of them instead.

Beliefs are like Operating Systems. Everyone's got a different one. Some people would be better served by different OS's. For others, what they've got works better for them.

This reminds me of people saying, "Mac rules over PC! So there." What's the point?

He's the man.

Not what you think

Michael,
Try not to read my post as an attack. It may be emotional for some. It may contradict someone's beliefs. It may be offensive to some. It may question beliefs.
My point is to show them their own hypocrisy and conflicting beliefs because once shown, the mind doesn't like that and will sometimes try to resolve the conflict. I am not even pushing atheism as I have been accused of by a few others. I am only pushing thinking and examination of your own beliefs. I don't care if they believe or not, but I would like their system to be as cohesive as possible.

If the religious people can separate their politics from their religion, then maybe us liberty lovers can focus on liberty rather than on government enforcing our beliefs on others. Some hard choices will need to be made. Do people want a slightly different Republican party who panders to the religious right for votes, but really does nothing; or, do people actually radically want to change and shrink government?

“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

I assume the OP is

I assume the OP is respionding to this (insane) claim that one must get through liberty by way of Jesus:

http://www.dailypaul.com/269989/the-strength-of-the-liberty-...

Precisely

I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the other claim.

“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

I upvote for discussion only

This is important!

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."

you are right about O's campaign...

It was wildly successful because of deceit and half-truths - it was/is Godless - and notice all the injustice, hypocrisy and tyranny coming from the administration!

"The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."

Not sure

I'm not sure it was successful because of deceit and half truths...

You have to admit that Romney was an awful, uninspiring, non-believable, and seriously lame candidate.

Obama was successful because the people wanted him more than Romney - pure and simple. They were both full of lies and BS.
The people preferred taxing the rich versus themselves.
The people prefer available birth control.
The people prefer socialism.

“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

I'm equally annoyed...

...by the evangelical Christians and the evangelical atheists.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

I trust that you're not one

I trust that you're not one of those hypoctrites who CLAIMS to be equally annoyed, yet only notes this in the atheist threads, yet let's the christian threads go unnoticed?

You are aware that this is a satirical thread mocking one of the x-ian ones, right?

Michael Nystrom's picture

E X A C T L Y

.

He's the man.
jrd3820's picture

Christ and Ron Paul would have been homies

Just my thoughts.

Either way, your right, it all lies in the individual. I think Christ can come along for the ride if he wants to though. Some people like having him around.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss