10 votes

Whom Does God Help?

An off topic discussion has been moved from http://www.dailypaul.com/259985/liberty-day-challenge-july-4... to this new On Topic Post.

Josf’s words from http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2897974

“God helps those who help themselves, it seems to me, and those who obey falsehood without question, it seems to me, are godless creatures who will get what they buy with their stolen loot.”

And specifically the cliché “God helps those who help themselves” is challenged by bear thus setting up the question: "Who does God help?"

1. God helps those who trust Him
2. God helps those who help themselves

Answered by bear http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2904731:

Trust and obedience go hand in hand. The Israelites where told not to take from the spoils of Jericho. But, Achan did:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/6-audio.html &
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/7-audio.html .

Israel was routed and 36 died because of one man’s disobedience. One man’s disobedience caused him and his whole household to be stoned and burned with fire. The harlot, she was in the genealogy of Jesus.

The passages that you just listened to can be applied to this verse:

• Proverbs 21:31 KJV
The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD.

So, yes, there is a sense in which we “help ourselves” by preparing for battle. But no matter how well prepared safety will be from the LORD.

And these words:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

In preparing for battle, one cannot only lean on their own understanding of how the world works. One must also know and obey the Word of God. Failure to obey God is being wise in your own eyes. It is saying, “I know better than God does.” I will do it my way.

That concept is boiled down in to a simple phrase here:
• 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Which can be seen evidenced in this battle plan given to Gideon:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/judges/7-audio.html

And then here you will see that King Asa is chastised because he did not rely on the Lord. He relied on other nations and kings for help and look what the result was…endless battles. Why? Because the Lord looks for those who will trust him in order to show himself strong on their behalf and the King did not look to God for his help. He walked by sight. Not by faith.

II Chronicles 16:7 And at that time Hanani the seer came to Asa king of Judah, and said unto him, Because thou hast relied on the king of Syria, and not relied on the LORD thy God, therefore is the host of the king of Syria escaped out of thine hand. 8 Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand.9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Why should we trust God? Because He is the Creator of Heaven and Earth. All POWER is His. He passes that POWER to those who trust Him and wait on Him. Those who walk by Faith and not by sight. Those who trust Him will not grow weary.

Isaiah 55:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. 29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: 31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

So, that is a lot of Old Testament Promise and History. Here is the New Testament. Jesus said:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We must abide or walk or live or rest or trust or have faith in Christ. Without Him we can do nothing. What does he want us to do?

Again in John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Simply: LOVE.

Complete audio of John 15: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/john/15-audio.html

Look, I think this is hard. Paul wrote this:

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I don’t know what that means when it comes to war. Does it mean what it says? I do not know. Supposedly we became a nation and a church won the battle of Lexington and Concord

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin735.htm .

The Amish which are pacifists have safe refuge here in the states because men from a church fired the shot heard around the world when the British came to seize the arms…according to Chuck Baldwin.

“On April 19, 1775, British troops, some 800 strong, were dispatched to Concord, Massachusetts, to arrest Sam Adams and John Hancock and to seize a cache of weapons known to be stored at Concord. When Dr. Joseph Warren sent Paul Revere to warn Pastor Jonas Clark (in whose home Adams and Hancock were staying) that the Crown’s troops were on their way to arrest the two men and seize the guns at Concord, he alerted his male congregants. About 60-70 men from the Church of Lexington stood armed on Lexington Green awaiting the Red Coats.

Upon spotting the citizen militia, a British officer demanded the men throw down their arms. They refused; and the British troops immediately opened fire. Eight of the Minutemen were instantly killed. The colonists returned fire in self-defense, and the shot was fired that was heard ’round the world. By the time the troops arrived at the Concord Bridge, just a few miles away, hundreds of colonists were waiting for them with muskets in hand, and the rest, as they say, is history.”

He quotes infowars.com in this article: http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin734.htm

Baldwin is the one that says the Christian and every other US person owes allegiance to the constitution, not to government because the government is under the constitution…remember that conversation we had regarding Romans 13?

I am not studied on war and what is right for the Christian. We have Old Testament examples of God being with the Israelites when they were following His instruction and seeking His help and guidance. Here Jesus says these words:

Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Those words are said right before he was taken by the Chief Priest and delivered for crucifiction. He had earlier in his ministry sent his disciples out to proclaim that the Kingdom of God was at hand and he sent them without money or preparation and they were provided for and were in need of nothing. But before he was to die he told them to buy a sword. Then Peter used the sword when they came to get Jesus and here is what Jesus did and said. In Luke it is in the same chapter but I am giving you Matthew because He records more of Jesus’ words. Jesus heals the servant of the man who is arresting him and tells Peter to put the sword away because they that take up the sword will die by the sword.

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled , that thus it must be?

If you read all of Chuck Baldwin’s words that I gave you…He is ready to become an outlaw if they try to outlaw his semi-auto. He is a Pastor. He was a Baptist Pastor in Florida. He was from an independent group…I am part of the Southern Baptist Group. Anyways Chuck does not believe churches should be 501.3c either. I have also heard him say that when he was a part of the “Moral Majority” group something to the effect that someone in the group conceded for a “seat at the table.” The table would be those of the political criminals probably the CFR. Anyways Chuck said something like…”Is that all you want.” Like that was a ridiculous concession. I heard all of that more than a year ago and I am not repeating it exactly as said, but if you are interested, I will find a link if I can. I just say all of that to say, that he is serious, and does not appear to be “sleeping with the enemy…or accepting a seat at the table of the enemy.”

Last of all I say this:

• Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes, you must help yourself, but in doing so, you cannot exclude God’s help if you expect to have his help. You cannot make a “deal with the devil” for victory and expect safety in battle.

If you look at Gideon’s battle you will see that God whittled the number down to 300 hundred men. A ridiculously low number, but a number that God would use to deliver the victory and give HIMSELF the glory. God will not share glory with another. He says this:

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

God will accomplish what He will accomplish for His Glory alone. If we help ourselves outside of His help, we will not have His help. His help requires faith.

So then, you must have faith to please God. How then will you get faith:
• Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The only way you will have faith is that you must be able to hear. The only way you will be able to hear is by hearing the word of God. That is why we have Old Testament and New Testament accounts and promises to rest upon. They are like monuments or commemorations of the faithfulness of God to those who will have hearts that are perfect toward Him because He is looking for those to whom He can show Himself strong upon their behalf.

Yes, the way is narrow:

• Matthew 7:14 KJV
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Which is why He uses the foolishness of the preaching of the cross:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Kinda sounds ridiculous doesn't it? The preaching of the cross sounds foolish. The whole concoction that some man 2000 years ago was God in Flesh and died on a cross so that you could have peace with God.

But, maybe you are one of the called and therefore will witness that power of God in Salvation in your own life. Kinda like you gotta be a Gideon with 300 men; or a David with a stone to kill a giant; or a Joe with a Jesus to please God.

• Titus 3:5 KJV
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

If you will be saved Joe, none of the glory will be shared with you or with me. It will all be God’s glory. You are powerless to save yourself and I am powerless to save you. Only God’s mercy will save you and you must be called to experience that mercy.

Again:
• Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
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From this answer Josf suggests a new topic covering the resulting questions http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2905602
It may be a good idea to continue the discussion in a separate topic as the subject matter turns toward the verses you now offer.

Who exactly is This Lord when The Lord orders human beings to murder innocent children, and then one human being listens to that order and that one human being obeys that order without question?

1. Who is speaking those orders - exactly.
2. Who obeys those orders - exactly.

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Who Cares!!!

Why does anyone really care what others believe to be true?
It it a divide and conquer tactic?
Is it a principal of liberty that everyone conforms to the same belief system?

" The penitent man shall

" The penitent man shall pass."

~ Engage in the war of attrition: http://pacalliance.us/redamendment/

Fictional

Fictional characters can only help other fictional characters so leprechauns, elves, fairies, gnomes, zombies, oh wait, the Bible already talks about helping Jesus, unicorns, ogres, pixies, brownies, and all other fictional characters. That is who the imaginary man-in-the-clouds helps.

Last year

God helped a young Russian. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNa5dcLccS4

donvino

I wonder why god didnt stop his jump?

Or why god never cures amputees?

Why?

Why would God take away his freedom to choose by actively preventing his jump?

Why would God take away all of the terrible things in this world? Wouldn't this also prevent us from learning, growing, being able to make our own choices?

Do people these days have the faith necessary for amputees to be cured? Faith comes before the miracle.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

Wow!

I was so glad to read he lived and can even walk!

If you can help yourself ...

If you can help yourself why do you need God's help?

God enables

He makes the solution possible.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

I heard he helped

Mary get prego without getting laid.

More class, please

Please have some more class and respect. You sound like a junior high schooler when you make comments like this.

Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Mary, Our Mother, protect us under your mantle.

That's exactly what I was taught as a child

Was I misinformed? Tell me what you think happened?

Discovery

My memory is not too good, have I seen this topic yet? I'll look closer.

What brought me here was a desire to link a Web Site that my brother posted on the web.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLRwhGMk0vs&feature=share

I was born into a Catholic family, whatever that means.

I thought that this place might be a good place to link that link, for your consideration and welcome response.

Joe

What particular direction

would you like to discuss concerning the linked report?

Mixed message?

1.
God demands obedience

2.
To me

Joe

Apparent Contradictions

Are you saying the mixed message of the video is that God demands obedience to man? i.e. the speaker says the Catholic Bishops need to write a paper on moral code instead of economics etc?

If that is the case I had some thoughts along those lines when I listened to it. My though was: There is no need to write a paper on moral conduct because the Bible already gives moral instruction. People just need to read and do what God’s word says and not do the things it says not to do.

However, morally we as a society are a long way off from Biblical moral conduct. However, how can one expect someone who is not a Believer to choose to behave morally? But then again, do we excuse murder or theft as a society just because someone does not want to follow a moral code? One might say, well my sin doesn't harm anyone else. The reality is that all sin is against God, and none of us is an island to ourselves.

And there is this verse:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may doit with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I can see the Amish following those instructions as they follow rules as a community.

I think that accountability is something that is lost in the Baptist church. Our church has a convenant hanging on the wall. Really the only thing that stands out to me right now is that we agree with one another not to partake of alcohol. That is something particular to our church. That covenant was in place when Jeff and I joined and so we submit ourselves to the wishes of our church as a whole when we joined our church.

...

Thanks for the opportunity

"Are you saying the mixed message of the video is that God demands obedience to man? i.e. the speaker says the Catholic Bishops need to write a paper on moral code instead of economics etc?"

Not exactly that, my thinking is that the message in the link was good, in the sense that the speaker points out the wrong of holding the position of spiritual guidance, and not doing it, sure that is good, but to then say that contraception is evil, because I say so, to me is like the Pot calling the kettle black.

I mean, more precisely, that sure, it is fantastic to encourage people to seek God, to ask for and find the truth, guidance, help, all that is good, ask and receive guidance.

From who?

Sure, I get it too, from The Bible, that is where the word of God is found, but again, who is doing the interpreting?

The Pope?

I like the link, I like the message of saying a person in the position of spiritual guidance ought to do that work. I like the message that those in that position are probably not the best, most qualified, authorities on political economy, when their offerings of guidance is dead wrong. I like that part.

The apparent contradiction, to me, is to then claim that God says this, exactly this, or exactly that, and as far as I can tell, in the case of "contraception" the message is too ambiguous, or patently false.

We can discuss this in detail, and I can start by saying that "contraception" can be defined as abstinence. I do not play word games, far from it, my point is to point out repeatedly, that there is a need to agree upon the actual meaning of any contentious word.

Contraception, if the idea is to be false, can mean men having sex with boys, since, well, there are no babies as a result.

Contraception can mean vowing never to engage in any activity that could result in reproduction.

What is the beef? Reproduction is good, so get rid of contraception, where is the orgy, and call me anything but don't call me late for the orgy?

If the beef is that the "authorities" are taking money from the subjects, as the subjects provide the means by which we suffer, and then those "authorities" spend that money on false advertizement campaigns intending to motivate the target audience to be as irresponsible and as unaccountable as those same "authorities", then that beef aught to be spelled out that way.

I don't know if my beef is spelled out well enough, but yes, there is an apparent contradiction to the person reporting on an apparent contradiction.

"There is no need to write a paper on moral conduct because the Bible already gives moral instruction. People just need to read and do what God’s word says and not do the things it says not to do."

That was the message, more or less, offered by the reporter in the link, basically saying that those Catholic authorities aught to be Catholic authorities and not otherwise.

"However, morally we as a society are a long way off from Biblical moral conduct."

I am going to call you on that merely for clarification. Do you mean "society" as a list of names, or do you mean "society" as a thing unto itself, a single entity, and therefore a responsible and accountable single entity to be blamed and punished as one thing?

1.
A list of names = society
2.
One thing

If it is a list of names, then I almost always see a need to point out that a few people on that list are manipulating the vast majority on that list, and that it may be a good idea to stop following that "guidance" if possible.

"However, how can one expect someone who is not a Believer to choose to behave morally?"

Common sense?

Absent the very POWERFUL influence of the few very worst people, as those few cause the many to act according to the designs of the few, those many people once free from those few evil people, believing what they will absent that evil influence, may, as one, believe as you do, or they may just believe it is better to be nice than to be evil, since nice is better. I don't know, but I do know enough about the POWER of those few to consider that avoiding them may help.

"However, how can one expect someone who is not a Believer to choose to behave morally?"

Most people I meet are good, they think good things, they act in good ways, almost universally, despite the fact that their brains have been washed to a point of power-less-ness when thinking and acting in defense of liberty; which is thinking and acting in defense against Legal Crime.

How stupid can good people be made into, as otherwise good people are made into counterfeit devils by a very few very evil people?

If my viewpoint is wrong, then I sure could use some help finding out exactly where my viewpoint is wrong.

Pay false authorities to spend that pay on making their victims stupid, and guess what happens?

Despite all that expense, all that cost, people, most of the ones I meet, are still good people, people not torturing other people for fun and profit, people not mass murdering other people for fun and profit, and even those who are misdirected into preforming those specific jobs, torturing, and mass murdering the innocent, from my reading, from my understanding, from my admittedly limited perspective, they are now busy committing suicide for some reason.

Why, if men are so bad, why, why, why, are so many soldiers, hired to do the dirty work of evil people, ending up dead from suicide these days, if men are so evil, that they decide, on their own free will, to end their own lives?

What is the total cost of believing in all those lies?

Bad is falsely seen as being good by too many people?

Where do all those lies come from?

Did all the human babies enter this world demanding more lies, or is it more likely that a few of those babies grew up with a taste for destruction at any cost, so long as the costs are passed onto anyone else?

I'm such a broken record, I know, how well I know, but providing the means by which we suffer, to me, is a no brainer, as in why would anyone take a good working, loaded, gun, put it to their own head, and pull the trigger?

Men are bad, so it figures that such things are done naturally?

"Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may doit with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

That is self evident, self explanatory, and that to me is not an excuse to "provide the means by which we suffer" if that is someone's interpretation.

What is the right, obviously beneficial, good, moral, thing to do when dealing with those people who watch for your souls?

That is a fair question, and I can apply that to you. I am here, and you exemplify someone watching out for my soul, so what is the logical, reasonable, right, moral, good, beneficial, and productive, powerful, non-destructive thing to do?

"Obey them...that watch for your souls..."

Now, if you please, take the counterfeit version whereby "they" are legal Criminals who are not really in the business of watching out for "your souls", well not exactly, "they" are stealing all your earnings and then they are using what they steal to steal more, including, I suppose, your soul.

1.
Common sense
2.
Drink the cool-aid

"for that is unprofitable for you"

What am I led to believe? Drinking the cool-aid (laced with poison) is profitable?

No, those who generously help out other people constitute true leadership, leading by example, is that not common sense?

OK, in a world where centuries of providing the means by which we suffer, people are physically and psychologically rendered powerless by a very few very powerful people, common sense is stomped out of existence, as is any other form of competition with blind obedience to falsehood without question.

What are my "Federal" tax liabilities at this moment?

Might it be a good idea to pay a little less if possible?

If we are too good at providing the means by which we suffer, we suffer more; right or not right?

If we are really bad at providing the means by which we suffer, we suffer less?

Who, exactly, is watching over my soul? Obama?

Ben Bernanke?

I think you need to look in the mirror and see credit where credit is due.

I've been wrong often, far too often.

"I think that accountability is something that is lost in the Baptist church. Our church has a convenant hanging on the wall. Really the only thing that stands out to me right now is that we agree with one another not to partake of alcohol. That is something particular to our church. That covenant was in place when Jeff and I joined and so we submit ourselves to the wishes of our church as a whole when we joined our church."

What happens if one of those who truly watch out for other souls questions the fact that "we" are providing the means by which we suffer, through The IRS and The FED, and those errant Troops that are so often taking the "easy" way out these days?

Silence or worse?

Censure?

What is the reply if that is done: questioning the false authorities? What is the message in any case of questioning the false authorities?

I can handle it, I'm used to it, but you may need more warning, yes you, be warned, the power against us is unlimited, so you have to limit it.

Joe

For someone who didn't have any words, I found a few

"Not exactly that, my thinking is that the message in the link was good, in the sense that the speaker points out the wrong of holding the position of spiritual guidance, and not doing it, sure that is good, but to then say that contraception is evil, because I say so, to me is like the Pot calling the kettle black."

I don't understand all of the Catholic doctrine concerning contraception. My understanding of Catholic contraception is to use the Rhythm Method for family planning instead of any manmade devices or chemicals or hormones.

I think that the use of contraception and baby formula were used to liberate women from being barefoot and pregnant. I also think that it undermined society and family life as a whole.

I look at the Amish. They have very large families. I look at them from a woman’s point of view. The girls help their mother and they learn to be a mother. The older children help care for younger siblings and then those younger siblings in turn help care for the children of their siblings. It is a circle of learned family. The boys work with their fathers. The children only go to school to 8th grade. I do not imagine that their childhood is extended into adulthood.

I think women were sold a lie. If we were created as natural care-givers and then that was taken from us to “free” us to go into the workforce to whose advantage is that? I saw a post were you were speaking with someone about 2 laborers for every employer or 2 employers for every laborer. Just what happened when the workforce doubled? Families can no longer make it comfortably on a single income. Why?

As far as contraception, the birth control pill can impede implantation of a fertilized egg. So then, if one believes life begins at conception. What happens when a fertilized egg finds the environment too hostile to implant? I think if “we” Christians really trusted God with our lives, we would trust his word that says:

Psalm 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. 4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. 5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Which begs the question: If children are a reward from the Lord, who would want to steel that reward?

I think the Catholic church has contraception right. It is unfortunate that Protestants in their liberation have figured out how to short cut the size family.

Reproduction was so important that the deed was given to a brother to give a widow an heir. And the Lord killed the guy that did not fulfill the obligation:

Genesis 38:6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar. 7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. 8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
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“What is the beef? Reproduction is good, so get rid of contraception, where is the orgy, and call me anything but don't call me late for the orgy?”

• Hebrews 13:4 KJV
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Reproduction within a marriage between a man and a woman is the guideline given in Scripture. Anything outside of marriage is sin.

• 1 Corinthians 6:18 KJV
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
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"Sure, I get it too, from The Bible, that is where the word of God is found, but again, who is doing the interpreting?"

I Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Scripture is no one’s private interpretation or opinion. Scripture is to by studied and scripture is to be used to interpret scripture.
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“I am going to call you on that merely for clarification. Do you mean "society" as a list of names, or do you mean "society" as a thing unto itself, a single entity, and therefore a responsible and accountable single entity to be blamed and punished as one thing?”

I think the list of names is what makes up society. The list of names, each choosing a course of action sets the course of “society” as a whole. If 35% of the people in my neighborhood decide to make meth and/or use it, then the makeup of my neighborhood will have that as a characteristic which will include all of the death, blown up houses, burned up people, abused children and ruined lives that making and using meth leaves in the wake.

Individuals make up society. Just like a bunch of ingredients make cookies. Each is independent of the other, but when mixed together the product is a combination of the parts.

Maybe you could listen to this: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/2-peter/3-audio.html words here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/2-peter/3.html
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“Most people I meet are good, they think good things, they act in good ways, almost universally, despite the fact that their brains have been washed to a point of power-less-ness when thinking and acting in defense of liberty; which is thinking and acting in defense against Legal Crime.
How stupid can good people be made into, as otherwise good people are made into counterfeit devils by a very few very evil people?
If my viewpoint is wrong, then I sure could use some help finding out exactly where my viewpoint is wrong.”

Look here at this 1 page list of how the word "ungodly" is used in the New Testament:

The ungodly: http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=ungodly&c=nt&t=kjv&...

We are all sinners. You and I have spoken about that. So then, when we look at those that do evil among us is it the pot calling the kettle black? There is none among the human race, save Jesus Christ, who can go to heaven on their own merit.

• Isaiah 64:6 KJV
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away .

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Luke 18: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray ; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying , God be merciful to me a sinner.14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased ; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

One man was “moral” and justified in his own eyes, the other knew he was a sinner and asked for mercy. Outward morality is not a reflection of God’s forgiveness.

So then, why did Jesus say this?

• Matthew 5:20 KJV
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says we have to be more righteous than those that follow the letter of the law.
-----------------
Yes, Joe, there is evil afoot and some of it is supernatural. But anyone who is not born of God belongs to the devil.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

...

Cause or symptom?

"I think that the use of contraception and baby formula were used to liberate women from being barefoot and pregnant. I also think that it undermined society and family life as a whole."

If power is not made scarce then a mom can be one, but if power is so scarce another mouth to feed is unaffordable.

In the Gatto History Lessons I thought that this was made clear with the decision to double the supply of labor, by Legal Criminals (who may call themselves State Capitalists, or any label that hides their crimes), and they did so by Mass Marketing the idea of hiring women to work, and that dumps so many workers on an already well managed labor market, managed into a scarcity of jobs, on purpose, by making the ONE MONEY scarce, and the result, according to Gatto, was the break up of so many families, and that bit about "up for adoption", where kids are basically given away, or auctioned off, at railroad stops.

The cause again: Monopoly Money Power.

Who can afford to have one wage earner? What possible cause is there for an incapacity to earn an independent living at a reasonable standard of living, and a reasonable cost of living?

Natural causes?

Men are bad?

Yes, of course, men are bad, and therefore we need to give all the power to make money make money for one group, so that they, being the only good ones, can tell us what to do, when to do it, and how much our standard of living is, and how much our cost of living is, based upon their exclusive power to add or subtract money.

Ron Paul often pointed to a need to understand the Business Cycle.

Monopoly Money Power turns what may be a natural boom and bust rhythm into feasting on famine for honest people and feasting on honest people for the crooks with badges.

"I look at the Amish."

I see independence, not dependence upon abject belief in falsehood without question i.e. One Legal Money Monopoly Power.

The Amish are measurable as competitors to the single omnipotent State Power.

Mormons were similar, and there was once an order by a Governor to Kill All Mormons. The Amish know how better to minimize their competitive advantages as far as those advantages may threaten the omnipotent State Power, being independent but not stepping on too many toes?

A woman can afford to have babies, how unnatural is that, they must be weird? <------poor attempt at humor.

I have a daughter who is in no position to afford a baby, and neither is her boyfriend, and her Dad is not fond of the medium of legal exchange. The brave new world for us is unaffordable and precariously close to dumpster diving on the whim of the Central Bankers. How weird is it, for someone born outside of a close nit family oriented community to be able to even think about reproducing, and into what will this new baby be born, from the eyes of a young couple? I can ask, for a more accurate current viewpoint, but my children are close, and they are not eager to reproduce.

How is that not clearly unnatural?

The cause?

Men are bad?

Don't even consider the intended consequences of purchases and investments made by the Single Money Power which include growing multitudes of lies and other very effective weapons of mass destruction?

"I think women were sold a lie. If we were created as natural care-givers and then that was taken from us to “free” us to go into the workforce to whose advantage is that? I saw a post were you were speaking with someone about 2 laborers for every employer or 2 employers for every laborer. Just what happened when the workforce doubled? Families can no longer make it comfortably on a single income. Why?"

All surplus wealth is transferred from those who create it to those who steal it and use the stolen loot to steal more, and that is the truth, supported by documented facts.

If that is not true it can be demonstrated as not true, in the face of all the accurately measurable evidence proving that it is true, and has been true in American since at least 1788.

"If children are a reward from the Lord, who would want to steel that reward?"

When the targets grow to be too powerful, exterminate the lot of them, but leave enough left to clean the toilets. It is called by various important sounding names, but the bodies pile up under any false label.

"I think the Catholic church has contraception right. It is unfortunate that Protestants in their liberation have figured out how to short cut the size family."

So Mike my cousin asked why I now speak of these thing when I did not in the past; well the Elephant is in the room, and I see it, and I don't see the need to point at it all the time, but here is a case in point.

We see smaller families, even depopulation, at least I see it, and to me you have to make an effort to run to one side or the other of the HUGE Elephant (Legal Money Monopoly Power) stomping all the kids into pulp, to eventually find fault with some people you call Protestants.

So, I sit there, watch you run around looking for those Protestants behind the Elephant, and what good is it for me to repeat the same thing over, and over, and over again?

The goal is destruction, they must destroy competition in all forms, competition cannot exist for a monopoly power to exist. What is the cause of smaller families?

Protestants.

Ok.

Now you tell me the Lord goes around slaughtering people. I may spend some time trying to understand that, but I prefer to focus attention on current things having to do with learning to know better.

Ok, I'll take a crack at it, a challenge, so the death sentence was handed out for the crime of rubbing God the wrong way? Failure to reproduce on command is a capital crime?

God now has a lot of work to do in that regard, failure to comply, or those orders are given out sparingly, and there are no exceptions to the rule when orders are not followed without question?

You there, I want a baby by July; times a wastin'.

Does anyone have any blue pills, the pressure in cramping my style.

"Anything outside of marriage is sin."

Anything outside of marriage is outside of marriage, and the list of sins is either going to cost the sinner or somehow the sinner will find a way to pass on those costs. I prefer to pay my own costs, I learn faster.

"Scripture is no one’s private interpretation or opinion. Scripture is to by studied and scripture is to be used to interpret scripture."

People have been known to sin.

"If 35% of the people in my neighborhood decide to make meth and/or use it, then the makeup of my neighborhood will have that as a characteristic which will include all of the death, blown up houses, burned up people, abused children and ruined lives that making and using meth leaves in the wake."

And the consequences of providing the means by which we suffer, earning enough to survive and giving up the rest to the few criminals, so that they monopolize the drug trade, crush the competition, or incorporate the locals in a neighborhood near you, the Elephant in the room again, is run around, ignored, looked past with much effort, and then those consequences are in view, and we can both call them names. We call them tweekers, and they have a fondness for copper.

Opportunity A, and opportunity B, I think it is called the lesser of two evils, and that is a scarce supply of good options for some mysterious reason; oh, and there is that Elephant still in the room by the way.

"Maybe you could listen to this:"

And am I going to learn how better to run around the Elephant to find victims to blame, so as to reach a conclusion that all men are bad, and therefore we all deserve to rot in hell or by some miracle some of us are invited to believe in the words written in those books, and do so without question?

I'll look, listen, and see if that information finally allows me to believe and then I may know better too.

"Nevertheless we , according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

I can't take any credit for helping anyone get on the list, but for my own viewpoint it is good for me to hear that life will survive in some form - if not mine.

If I report to you that most of the people I meet are basically good, that does not mean that I am reporting that people are gods.

I can be very specific as to what I mean by good, and I can repeat as many times as needed that I do not mean that good means godly.

I did not say that many people I meet are basically gods in human form.

"So then, when we look at those that do evil among us is it the pot calling the kettle black?"

Yes we have spoken about this and your belief is not mine, so as far as I know, according to what I think you report to me, I don't get a ticket to heaven, I get the ticket to hell. That is fine, as it should be, unless I'm saved - perhaps. I don't know the whole story.

I do know that most of the people I meet do not torture people and mass murder people, and that is bad, specifically bad, measurable as injury to the victims by the criminals.

If there is a torturer, I can call that torture Black.

If there is a mass murderer, I can call that mass murderer Kettle.

If there are these people I meet, and none of them are torturing, and none of them are mass murdering, then they are not Black nor Kettle precisely according to those definitions. I did not say, nor do I claim, that most people are godly.

"There is none among the human race, save Jesus Christ, who can go to heaven on their own merit."

I'm not so sure, I don't get the memos, and you have said yourself that you are incapable of knowing the whole truth as you too are not God. There may be fine print that was not told to the sinners, at least I think it is possible.

I don't know, perhaps Jesus had a sister, or will have one. Is it possible that one of the books have yet to be discovered?

"Yes, Joe, there is evil afoot and some of it is supernatural. But anyone who is not born of God belongs to the devil."

I see a need to know better, but much of that spiritual knowledge appears to be contradictory to me, and I can be simply confused, like trying to read Chomsky On Language, it goes over my head. Meanwhile, to me, there is that Elephant in the room and if more of us stop feeding it, it might leave the room looking for greener pastures.

Joe

Elephants and the like

"I see a need to know better, but much of that spiritual knowledge appears to be contradictory to me, and I can be simply confused, like trying to read Chomsky On Language, it goes over my head."

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
-------------------------------------
“Yes we have spoken about this and your belief is not mine, so as far as I know, according to what I think you report to me, I don't get a ticket to heaven, I get the ticket to hell. That is fine, as it should be, unless I'm saved - perhaps. I don't know the whole story.”

I know Joe, I just hope that at some point you will be able to believe.
-----------------
“I'm not so sure, I don't get the memos, and you have said yourself that you are incapable of knowing the whole truth as you too are not God. There may be fine print that was not told to the sinners, at least I think it is possible.”

I know this for sure. The Bible IS God’s Word; it hold the truth about salvation and it is by what we will be judged.

• Romans 2:2 KJV
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

• John 17:17 KJV
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
---------------
"I think the Catholic church has contraception right. It is unfortunate that Protestants in their liberation have figured out how to short cut the size family."

Maybe I should say, I think most religious Protestants have believed a lie when it comes to family planning.
---------------
"In the Gatto History Lessons I thought that this was made clear with the decision to double the supply of labor"

Josf, you have such a good mind. I cannot remember much of what Gatto said.

Yah, they double the workforce and then proceed to tax and regulate at 50% plus...Basically the criminals demand the sum of one of the household incomes...
---------------------------
"Meanwhile, to me, there is that Elephant in the room and if more of us stop feeding it, it might leave the room looking for greener pastures."

I think if you stop feeding the elephant it might stomp on you and then eat you.

...

Pot calling kettle black?

"Maybe I should say, I think most religious Protestants have believed a lie when it comes to family planning."

A thought is a momentary experience perceived by an individual person, at least in my case, and I can rely upon the honesty, and generosity, and moral conscience of other people to help me know how they manage these things called thoughts.

God says X and Y.

I was not present.

In between God and me are people.

If one says God says X and X is that people are not perfect, they have this sin thing going on...

OK, I say, common sense, thanks, it isn't just me seeing these things, you see them too, and so does God according to you.

I get that.

God says Y, according to someone, and Y is the truth, the whole truth, the absolute truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me Bible.

Bible? I say, or God?

Bible.

OK, and the Bible has people involved, and those same people involved are imperfect, ungodly, and therefore not error free?

"Maybe I should say, I think most religious Protestants have believed a lie when it comes to family planning."

The Jury is still out? By the way my son was an alternate and now he is a Juror in a case, and he refuses to talk about the case. If I could I would impart all my experiences to my children in such a way as to give them all the knowledge and remove all the falsehood I have collected along the way, or, on second thought, that would dull their capacity to learn from their own mistakes, paying their own costs.

"Josf, you have such a good mind. I cannot remember much of what Gatto said."

I specialize in general political economy, so I'm tuned to that harmony. I am going to link and quote a new link to me, and we have discussed the history of this source in our discussions, but you were probably not tuned in, so the relevance of the history and the information may not resonate within your viewpoint as it does mine. The link and the quote are very important reports on reality concerning political economy in our time, which means it is information that is very relevant to you, your family, and mine, even if you don't understand it.

http://praxeology.net/BT-SSA.htm

"First in the importance of its evil influence they considered the money monopoly, which consists of the privilege given by the government to certain individuals, or to individuals holding certain kinds of property, of issuing the circulating medium, a privilege which is now enforced in this country by a national tax of ten per cent., upon all other persons who attempt to furnish a circulating medium, and by State laws making it a criminal offense to issue notes as currency. It is claimed that the holders of this privilege control the rate of interest, the rate of rent of houses and buildings, and the prices of goods, – the first directly, and the second and third indirectly. For, say Proudhon and Warren, if the business of banking were made free to all, more and more persons would enter into it until the competition should become sharp enough to reduce the price of lending money to the labor cost, which statistics show to be less than three-fourths of once per cent. In that case the thousands of people who are now deterred from going into business by the ruinously high rates which they must pay for capital with which to start and carry on business will find their difficulties removed. If they have property which they do not desire to convert into money by sale, a bank will take it as collateral for a loan of a certain proportion of its market value at less than one per cent. discount. If they have no property, but are industrious, honest, and capable, they will generally be able to get their individual notes endorsed by a sufficient number of known and solvent parties; and on such business paper they will be able to get a loan at a bank on similarly favorable terms. Thus interest will fall at a blow. The banks will really not be lending capital at all, but will be doing business on the capital of their customers, the business consisting in an exchange of the known and widely available credits of the banks for the unknown and unavailable, but equality good, credits of the customers and a charge therefor of less than one per cent., not as interest for the use of capital, but as pay for the labor of running the banks. This facility of acquiring capital will give an unheard of impetus to business, and consequently create an unprecedented demand for labor, – a demand which will always be in excess of the supply, directly to the contrary of the present condition of the labor market. Then will be seen an exemplification of the words of Richard Cobden that, when two laborers are after one employer, wages fall, but when two employers are after one laborer, wages rise. Labor will then be in a position to dictate its wages, and will thus secure its natural wage, its entire product. Thus the same blow that strikes interest down will send wages up. But this is not all. Down will go profits also. For merchants, instead of buying at high prices on credit, will borrow money of the banks at less than one per cent., buy at low prices for cash, and correspondingly reduce the prices of their goods to their customers. And with the rest will go house-rent. For no one who can borrow capital at one per cent. with which to build a house of his own will consent to pay rent to a landlord at a higher rate than that. Such is the vast claim made by Proudhon and Warren as to the results of the simple abolition of the money monopoly."

I know that I've already splashed that infomercial all over this forum, and my own forum, and for what I consider to be good reason. The victims have to get a handle on these facts, and the criminals already know these facts intimately. In simple terms, there must be destruction of competition (genuine competition based upon cooperation, not counterfeit competition based upon antagonism) for there to be monopoly and monopoly can be accurately measured as a condition of life when the standards of living are declining while the costs of living are increasing.

Basic human nature is not bad, that is false, and if God told people that people are not Godly, then that ought to be understood instead of misunderstood, in my opinion, since human beings are created to find better instead of worse in measurable fact.

Some of the human beings deceive for fun and profit, and some are much better than others at that business.

"I think if you stop feeding the elephant it might stomp on you and then eat you."

Yes, and does that stop someone good from doing good? You still watch out for your fellow souls don't you?

How do you find out how better to be better if we are all so ungodly?

You, in my opinion, are not the exception, you are the rule, as far as choosing better for worse, and your exceptional abilities are specific to the path traveled in your shoes. In other words, if everyone works toward the goal of crime, to gain at the expense of everyone else, then the rate at which we all eat each other rapidly consumes everyone down to the last two, and since most of us are eating GMO foods, but most of us are not profiting from GMO foods, instead most of us are merely victims of GMO foods, paying the costs, then it is, obviously, measurably, a case of the few bad, really bad, evil ones, gaining power from the many ungodly, but basically free minded, liberty minding, non-criminals who just so happen to be good at making things worth stealing.

Joe

Political and Eternal

“OK, and the Bible has people involved, and those same people involved are imperfect, ungodly, and therefore not error free?”

The Holy Spirit enabled men to write the Bible.

• 2 Peter 1:21 KJV
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Bible is Truth. Therefore it is not error:

• John 17:17 KJV
[Jesus said] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jesus declares that we are to live by the Word of God.

• Luke 4:4 KJV
And Jesus answered him , saying , It is written , That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
--------------------------------
“Basic human nature is not bad, that is false, and if God told people that people are not Godly, then that ought to be understood instead of misunderstood, in my opinion, since human beings are created to find better instead of worse in measurable fact.”

1. Josf: Political Economy
Humans are basically good according to Political Economy

2. Bear: Eternal Economy
Humans are ungodly and cannot spend eternity with God according to

3. Political Economy vs. Eternal Economy
Physical Life vs. Everlasting Life
(vs. not meant antagonistically, but rather more in the thought of “in contrast to.”) 
---------------------------------
“I know that I've already splashed that infomercial all over this forum, and my own forum, and for what I consider to be good reason. The victims have to get a handle on these facts, and the criminals already know these facts intimately.”

http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2983521 (click in situ and you will see to what I was replying.)

...

To be clear

“OK, and the Bible has people involved, and those same people involved are imperfect, ungodly, and therefore not error free?”

Here is God

Here is people

God says people are not God

Which one's listen and heed that truth?

Me, me, me, me, anyone else?

Joe

"Which one's listen and heed that truth?"

On the hand made bookshelf in the room at an Amish house I visited today was a 4-5 inch thick book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_Mirror

"Martyrs' Mirror or The Bloody Theater, first published in 1660 in Dutch by Thieleman J. van Braght, documents the stories and testimonies of Christian martyrs, especially Anabaptists. The full title of the book is The Bloody Theater or Martyrs Mirror of the Defenseless Christians who baptized only upon confession of faith, and who suffered and died for the testimony of Jesus, their Saviour, from the time of Christ to the year A.D. 1660. The use of the word defenseless in this case refers to the Anabaptist belief in non-resistance. The book includes accounts of the martyrdom of the apostles and the stories of martyrs from previous centuries with beliefs similar to the Anabaptists."

On line text:
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/contents.htm

I believe one could say that those people said:

"Me, me, me, me, anyone else?"

and paid for that confession with their lives from the 1st to 15th centuries.

"[Climb up your golden height, champion of the band of holy souls, who followed God's red banner of blood, in oppression and in the midst of misery; where naught but the smoke and vapor of human burnt sacrifices ascended to the clouds; yet thou, hero, didst go before them, yea, didst fight thy way through the strait gate to the wide Heaven.]

Then followed a great multitude of very pious and virtuous people-men, women, youths and maidens, all clothed with the same armor of faith and walking in the same path. Some of these were, like their leader, deprived of life; the rest were led to different places of execution, where they beheld many of their fellow brethren and sisters whose lives had been taken by the most dreadful means burned and roasted at the stake. They nevertheless were not terrified, though they had to expect to be put to death in the same manner; but were of good cheer, calling upon God for help, that they might not falter in their sufferings, but prove steadfast to the end; this clone, they also were burned.

This seemed almost to break our heart; our soul was horrified, and filled with pity on account of their misery; but when we remembered their constancy, and that now, for the heat endured, they found refreshing with God, nay, could expect the blessed crown of immortal glory, our grief subsided and sweet consolation filled our soul, so that we, to their memory, wrote the following words for ourselves and our fellow brethren..."

"Index of Anabaptists Who Were Persecuted
or Martyred 1525-1660

Compiled by Ira D. Landis

A

Abraham of Colchester, 346, 347

Ackeren, Jan van, 965

Adams, Hendrick, 588

Adrian of Gravenhage, 447

Adrienss, Jan, 847

Aeberly, Lorenz, 1130

Aechtken of Zierckzee, 623

Aelmeers, Martijtgen, 663

Aelmeers, Nikasen van, 663

Aernem, Hendrick van, 500

Aernem, Hendrick van, 500

Aerts, Elsgen, 640

Aerts, Hendrick, and wife, Janneken Cabiljaus, 665

Aerts, Willem, 715

Aertsa, Jan, 847

Aicher, Hans, 1060, 1061

Aibi, Verena, 1118

Alda, 439

Alewijns, Hendrick, 742 757

Alewyns, Gerrit, 758

Algerius, 570 573

Allaerts, Lauwerens, 656

Aman, Burckhardt, 1113

Amore, Marlin, 655

Amore, Martijne, 663

Amore, Nikasen, 655

Andries, 624

Andries, M. 882

Andries, N., father and brother, 845

Andries, N. 845

Andriess, Dirk, 774

Andriess, Lauwerens, 851, 852, 861, 872

Andriess, Lauwerens, 848, 863

Anna, 702

Anna of Freiburg, 434

Anna of Rotterdam, 453

Anneken, 494, 495, 526

Anneken, 575

Antheunis, Annetgen, 574577

Anthonis, the weaver, 885$88

Anoot, Dirk, 758

Arents, Grietje, 763

Arents, Heyndrick, 736, 737

Armentiens, Class van, 1008

Asselroye, Anthony van, 498

Assuerus, 525

Aster, Hans, and wife, 1112

Aucken, Hans, 1130

Aucken, Peter, 1130

Augustine the baker, 553

Aussilly, Jacob. 1123

Assess, Reytse, 994 1005

B

Bachman, Rudolph, 1118

Bachmani, Elizabeth, 1120

Backer, Hans de, 640

Backer, Hendrick de, 1126

Backer, Jacob de, widow of, 670

Backer, Peter de, 555

Backer, Pieter de, 568

Backer, Victor de. 568

Backers, Mariken, 888

Backater, Margaret, 346, 348

Baets, Grietgen, 759

Bagijn, Jan de, 847

Bair, John, of Lichtenfels, 503, 504

Balthasar, 428

Barbara of Thiers, 435, 436

Barbel, 526

Barninge, Sijntgen, 968

Bartel, 500

Bartel, Hans, 447

Bartholomew, the potter, 550

Bastiaen, 655

Baton, Aeltgen, 1091, 1092

Bauman, George, 438

Bauman, Hans Rudolf, 1118

Baumgarter, Jacob 1123

Baumgarter, Uly, 11243

Beck, Hans, 440

----

----

Beck, Hans, 444

Beck, Hans, 588

Beck, Michael, 449

Beckjen, Pieter Pieters, 738, 739

Beckjen, Pieter Pielerss, 831,'832

Beckuam, Mary van, 500, 501

Beckum, John van, 467

Backum, Maria van, 467

Beckum, Ursula, 467

Beerentge, 539, 540

Benedict, 436

Benedictus, Steven, 443

Berg, Jan Janssen van dem, 766

Bergs, Anpleunis van den, and wife, Kalleken, 758, 759

Bergs, Perceval van den, 664, 665

Bernaert, jells, 624 630

Bernaerts, Mattheus, 947 951

Bernard, 632

Bernkop, Leonard, 465

Betgen, 650

Betgen, Deat, 640

Betgen of Ghent, 640

Bethezel, Elssa, 1120

Biesman, Hendrich, 763

Binder, Matthijs, 1026

Blau, Annill, 1121

Blaurock, George, 430 432, 435, 436

Blietel, Hans, 473

Block, Arent, 930, 931

Block, Jan, 894 896

Block,, John, 447,

Boons, Truyken, 483, 484

Bogart, Uly, 1124

Boiler, Henry, 1121

Boltzinger, Leonhard, 1060

Bonaventuers, Grietgen, 623, 639

Boogaert, Adriaen, wife of, 844

Boon, Gerrit, 876

Boosers, Maeyken, 667 669

Borduerwercker, Hans, 550

Bosch, Jan, of Bergh, 630, 631

Bossier, Maerten, 582

Bostijn, Jacques, 656

Botson, Anneken, and daughter, Ianne­ken, 1060

Bouwens, Leenaert, 737

Brael, Adriaen, 655, 656

Brael, Hans, 560 563

Brandhuber, Wolfgang, 433

Brent, Jan Jans, 617

Bret, Hans, 1037 1054

Bret, Willem, 1052

Broecke, Hanscken van den, 583

Brother at Vuren, 547

Brubach, Peter, 1110 1118

Bruck, Steyermark, 429

Brussels, Grietjen van, 1007

Bruyn, 885 888

Bruynen, Peter, 498

Bruyssel, Michiel van, and wife, Bar­berken, 965

Buchner, John, 498

Buefkijn, Jannijn, 493

Burrs, Adriaen den, 686

Busch, J. D. G. van den, 465

Buyck, Joost, 840

Buyse, Michiel, 1069, 1070

Buyze, Chriatoffel, 759

Byler, Gerrit van, 1010 1012, 1022 1024

C

Cantiana Anna, 498

Capelle, Wouter van, 539, 1096

Cassel, Anthosis van, 620, 622

Catharine, 503

Christian, 526

Christian, 550

Christian and wife, 575

Christofiel, 526

Class, Aathonis, 640

Class, Baef, 764

Class Cornelius 470

Claes, Kalleken, 991

----

----

Class, Susanneken, 991

Claesken and husband, 611 616

Chess, Adriaentgen, 470

Claess, Class, 465

Claess, Cornelis, 704, 706, 711, 713 715

Claess, Gerritt, 470

Chess, Jacob, and wife, 485

Claess, Jan, 823

Claess, John, 468 471

Claess, Wiert, 846, 847

Claessen, Gerrit, 764

Claessen of Drourijp, 444

Claverss, Jells, 872

Cloves, Pieter van, 723

Coelomey, Adrian and Gerrit, 758

Coerten, Pieter of Meenen, 620, 622

Corneliss, Adrian, 526 535

Cornelis:, Geleyn, 930, 931

Cornelis s, Gerrit, 876

Corneliss, Willeloort, 689

Cornelissen, Adriaen, 764

Cornelissen, Joost, 553

D

Daems, Joost, 1070

Dale, Guljame van, 656

Dam, Hans van der, 969

Damian of Algau, 466

Damme, Kestine van, 641

Dasie, Jacques, 498

DAuchy Jacques, 591 611

Denijs, Wouter, 759

Denija, Wouter, 759 761

Deventer, Maeyken van, 977 979

Deynoots, Maeyken, 880 882

Dilburgh, Steven Janss, and wife, Leentjen, 947

Dingentgen of Honschoten, 947, 953 959, 961

Dirk, Little, 583

Dircks, Faes, 846 848

Ducks, Grietgen, 837

Ducks, Jacob, 724, 725

Ducks, Lijsken, 504 506, 511 522

Ducks, Reyer, 502

Duks, Glass, 465

Duks, Clement, 563, 567

Dirks, Hendrick, 526

Duks, Michael, 473

Duks, Waeckiing, 583

Doom, Jan, 44, 968

Doornaerts, Maeyken, 553

Doornick, Jan van, 766

Doornick, Lambert van, 584

Draeyaerts, Kalleken and 6usanneken, 991

Drooghscheerder, Jan, 550

Drooqscheerder, Willem, 568, 569

Duerhove, Saerken van, 870

Durps, Jan, 630

Duster, Hans, 1122

Dutysch, Hans den, 583

Duyck, Willem de, 686

Duynherder, Gerrit, 742, 758

E

Eckelo, Heyndrich van, 896

Eder, Marcus, 1103

Eelken, 484, 465

Eemkens, Heyndrick, 660, 661

Eeuwouts, Douwe, 893, 1003

Egbert, Royer, 536

Eglo, Jacob, 1113, 1114

Egli, Rudolf, 1109

Egly, Rudolf, 1110

Egiwerckia Ian, 465

Eicher, Conrad, 1129

Eight others, 448

Eight men, two women, one child, 296

Eighteen burned at Salzburg, 427

Elberts, Breght, 764

Eleven others, 1124

Page 1145

Elizabeth, 481, 482

Elizabeth, 503

Elizabeth, 546, 547

Elstlandt, Franchoys van, 654

Engel, 990

Enkhuysen, Class, 765, 766

Ennathas, 183

Ensisheim, 600 slain at, 429

Eslinger, Wolfgang, 439, 440

Essen, Arent van, and wife, Ursel, 842-844

Etten, Henderich van, 818

Euwout, the barber, 846, 847

Everling, Jacob, 1126

Eynoven, Pieter van, 575, 576

F

Feichter, Conrad, 441

Feferer, Hans, 428

Felbinger, Nicholas, 643, 644

Femmetgen of Egbert, 443

Fast, Ludwig, 441

Fierens, Christoffel, 961

Fifty four burned, 992, 993

Fije, 484, 465

Fijts, Symon, 823

Fijtsoon, Simon, 962

Five brethren and sisters burned, 428

Floris, Maeyken, 620 622

Forty five martyrs, 703

Francijntgen, 553

Francis, 472

Franss, Betgen, 618

Franss, Mariken, 618

Franss, Neelken, 618

Frick, Leonhard, 425

Frick, George, 435

Fricken, Henry, 1119

Friesen, George, 661 663

Frisius, Ubbo, 788

Freerks, Sicke, 441, 442

G

Gachnauer, Jacob, 1123

Gaerber, Waelty, 1130

Gasteyger, Christian, 1062

Gaukes, Ydse, and wife, Anneken, 885-893

Gaupner, Andrew, 428

Geertgen, 758

Gielder, Sijntgen van, 656

Geldersman, Jacob de, 475 477

George, John, 703

George of Chur, 436

Gerbrant, Claes, 536

Gayer, Nicholas, 703

Gerrit, Home of, 575

Gerrits, Peter, 445

Gerritt, 500

Gerritts, Jan, 680

Gesel, Balthasar, 444

Gijselaer, Koppen de, Cornelis, Michael, 930, 931

Gijsbrechts, Hendrick, van Campen, 443

Gijselbrecht, 1030

Gillis, 994, 495

Gillis, 502

Gillis, Aeltje, 764

Gillis, Aix la Chapelle, 536, 568, 575

Gink, Jan van, 763

Glasmacker, Sebastian, 446

Glock, Paul, 1024 1026

Goes, Maeyken van der, and husband, Jasper the Taschrinckmaecker, 818, 819, 758

Goes, Peluntgen van der, 618

Goethals, Barbelken, 870

Goethals, Joost, 759

Gomer the mason, 640

Gotthard of Nonenberg, 590, 591

Goudeken, 656

Govert, 494, 495

Graet Steven de, and mother, Sijntgen, 666

Greitzinger, Offrus, 448, 449

Grendel, Jan, 663

Greunfelder, Henry, 345

Greyenburger, Veit, 841, 842

Grietge, 987

Grietgen, 583

Grietgen, 503

Grietgen, 553

Grfetjexy, 881

Grobin, Catharina, 1114

Groot, Jelis de, 616, 617

----

----

Groot, Lucas de, 722

Gruber, Lambrecht, 440

Gruenfelder, Hans, 446

Gruenwald, George, 438

Guelders, Laurens van, 569

Gulicker, Pieter de, 929, 930

Gutwol, Henry, 1115

Gurtzham, Hans, 474

H

Hadewijk, 546, 547

Hagen, Ruth, 1122

Hagerly, 1129

Hage, Rudolf, 1113

Halewijn, Mahieu van, 616, 817

Hailing, Karel, 704

Hans, Thomas, 1089

Hans, 1053

Hans, 655

Hans, 624

Hans, Little, of Stotzingen, 427, 428

Hans of Wels, 450

Hansken, 774

Hansken of Oudenaerde, 953, 959, 961, 968

Haring, Christina, 441

Harmans, Andries, 765

Harman the Dyer, 885 888

Hasebroeck, Jan van, 766, 770 774

Hasepoot Gerrit, 560

Hanskeri s wife 624

Haslibacher Hans, 1128 1130

Haustelraed, Tennis van, 495, 496

Haverbeke, Willem van, 582

Hazel, Michiel, 1088

Hee, Adriaen van, 584

Hellrigling, Ursula, 467

Hendrick, 758

Hendrick, 642

Hendrick of Deventer, 514

Hendrick N., 653

Hendricks, Aechtgen, 942 944

Hendricks, Alewijn, 757

Heyndricks, Anneken, 872, 873

Hendricks, Cornelis, Jacob, Leentgen, 944

Hendricks, Evert, 944

Hendricks, Jan, 574 576

Hendricks, Lucas, 655 656

Hendrickss, Jan, 932 944

Hendricks, Sander, 639

Hendrickss, Clement, 834, 837 841

Hendrickss, Pouwels, 942 944

Hendrix, Leentgen, 764

Hendrix, Thymon, 766

Henry, 1124

Henry, Big, 504, 519

Herman, 691

Herman, 697, 700

Herman, 665

Hermans, Meynert, 535

Herman, Thomas, 422

Hess, Hans Jacob, and wife, 1115

Hilzin, Elizabeth, and husband, 1112

Hinnelberg Anthony, 1124

Hoedemaecker, Adriaen Janss, 883 885

Hoedemaecker, Adriaen (Kort), 992, 993, 1095

Hoedemaecker, Goossen, 584

Hoedemaecker, Willem den, 584

Hoestetten, woman of, 1129

Honschoten, Woute van, 583

Houte, Soetgen van den, and husband, 646 657

Hove, Anneken van den, 1093 1095

Hove, Pieter ten, 1102

Huber, Hans, 465

Huber, Hans, and wife and her sister, 1123, 1124

Huber, Ulrich, 1129

Hubmaier, Bathasar, 424, 465, 1116

Hueber, Wolfgang, 617

Huereblock, Martin, 488

Hulls, Jan, 656

Hulls, Janneken van, 864

Hussele, Jaecxken van, 759

Hut, John, 433

Hut, Philip, 433

Huter, Jaco, 430, 431, 440

Huybert 758

Huyge, 677

Huyvemaeeker Lauwerens de, and wife, Catelijntgen, 639

I

Ick, Stijntje, van, 574

Imbroeck, Thomas van, 367, 578 582

----

----

Imbroeck, Barbertgen, Hansken, Joos, Pierken, 587

Imhoff, Catharina, 1129

Imwald, Thomas, 435

Isolly, Rudolph, 1130

Isselme, Jacob, 1120

Issoli, Verena, 1129

J

Jacob the Cobbler, and wife, 1007

Jacob the goldsmith, 640

Jacob the weaver, 774, 784, 788

Jacobs, Andries, 724

Jacob, Old, 500

Jacob and eli, 464

Jacobs, Arent, and family, 455

Jacobs, Barbra, 764

Jacobs, Dirk, 847

Jacobs, Jan, 724

Jacob, Pieter, 725

Jacrobssen, Arent, 763

Jacobs~n, Jan, 764

Jacque , 616

Jaggli. Hans, 1120

Jan, 524, 525

Jan, 654

Jan, 655

Jan, 1028

Jan and companions, 497

Jan N., 655

Jan, ribbon weaver, 846

Jancheelen Maritgen, 574

Jankheer, Janneken de, 656

Janneken, 569

Janneken, 583

Janneken,641

Janneken, 881

Jans, Adriaenken, 897 900

Jans, Adriana, 764

Jans, Albert, 845

Jans, Avicenna, 577

Jans, barber, 845

Jans, Claes, 469

Jane, Dieuwertgen, 495

Jans, Dirk, 526

Jans, Grietgen, 740

Jans, Ellert, 483, 484

Jans, Felistis, 539

Jams, Gertrude, 469

Jans of Ghent, 535

Jans, Gijsbert, 483, 484

tans, Goechgen, 764

Jans, Herman, 538

Jans, Jan, 483, 484

Jans, Jannetje, 764

Jans, Job, 731

Jans, Joos, 666

Jans, Lijsbeth, and husband, Jan Hen­ drickss, 933

Jans, Lysbeth, 764

Jans, Trijn, 764

Jans, Maerten, 932, 941, 942

Jans, Trijntjen, 1005

Jans, Maritgen, 495

Jans, Pieter Class, 464

Jans, Pieter, 483, 484

Jans, Stijntgen, 575, 576

Jans, Sybrant, 443

Jans, Willem, 495

Janss, Cornelies, 44

Janss, Cornelis, 833, 834

Janss, Hendricks, 935

lanss, Servaes, 959, 960

Janss, Willem, cutler. 847

Jaass, Willem, teacher, 831, 832

Janssen, Arent, 763

Janssen, Willem, 763

Jasper, N., 870

Jasper, Nelleken, and father and mother, 762

Jasper, Shoemaker, 663

Jaspers, Govert, 582

Jaspers, Nelieken, 872

Jelis, mason's tender, 846

Jelis of Aix la Chapelle, 532, 557, 592, 611, 612

Jeronymus, and wife, Margriete, 569. 965, 967, 968

Jeronymus, Cecilia, 485, 486

Jeuriaenss, Tijs, 823 831

Joachim, 644

Jonckheere, Janneken, 759

Joosken, 697

Joost, the wheelwright, and wife, 846

Joosten, 585

Joosten, barber, 848

Joosten, Joost, 651

Joosten, Pieter, 44

Page 1146 original book

Joris, 503

Joris, 644

Joris, the dyer, 903

Joris Lijntgen and Trijntgen, 885 889, 891

Joris, Mary, 563

Joris, Peter, 445

K

Kalleken, 709

Kalvaert, Daniel, 666

Kampner, Agatha, 435, 436

Kampner, Elizabeth, 435, 436

Karel, 715

Karel N., 653

Karettier, Maarten, 848

Karniter, George Kunen, 436

Karstiaen L.. 903

Kasteef, Joos, 715

Katelijntgen, 889

Kats, Maeyken, 623

Keersgieter,Jacob de, 774 785, 798 818

Keeskooper, Hansken, 487 491, 493, 494

Kels, Jerome, 445

Kernels, Christiaen, 1009, 1022•1024

Kernels, Lijntgen, 848

Kempen, Gerrit van, 497

Keppel, William van, 661, 662

Kesij, Jacob, and mother, Martfjntgen, 867, 868

Kestijntgen, 1035

Ketel Pouwels, 1030

Ketels Fierijntgen, and mother, Leentgen, 666

Keurs, Philip de, 447

Keuse, Mattheers, 992, 993

Keute, Anthonis, 655, 656

Keuts Trijnken, 618

Keyser, Daniel de, 1027, 1036

Keyser, Leonhard, 420 422

Keyser, Liefken, 535

Kindt, Joos, 540 546 Klaerken, 569

Klampherer, Julius, 652

Kleermaecker, G., 965, 966

Kleermaecker, Willem de, 645

Knel, John, 498

Knevel, Hans, 945 947

Koch, Conrad, 686 688

Koch, Hans at Augsburg, 339, 413, 414

Kocx, Maeyken, 652 654

Kollar, Andrew, 473 Kolbin, Barbara, 1112

Koolaert, the cooper, 651

Koopman, Jan, arid servant, Hans, 766, 774

Koordedraeger, Hansken, 725, 726

Kopf, Daniel, 435

Kopfler, Philip, 435

Korbmacher, Johns, 645

Korte, Maeyken de, 623, 624, 639

Koster, Peter, 443

Kraen, Hugo Jacob, 441

Kraen, Mary, 441

Kramer, Michael, 473

Kramer, Peter, 590, 591

Kranewitter, Peter, 444

Krood, Dirk Platers, 464

Kudse, Jan de, 554

Kulenburgh, Cornelius van, 538

Kunstel, Ruth, 1122

Kuier, Eustace, 645, 646

Kuyck, J. W. van, 871, 897 927

Kuyck, John Wouterss van, 372

Kuyper, Frans de, 592

L

Lad of 15, 501

L. Adam V., and wife, Mariken, 960

Lamberts, Lucas, 471

Lamberts, Dirk, 666

Landis, Felix, and wife, Adelheid Egli, and family, 112

Landis, Hans, 1103 1105

Landis, Hans II, 1110

Landis, Margaret, 1110

Landis, Verena, 1121

Langeduhl, broommaker, 624

Langedul, Andries, and daughter, Maeyken, 633, 634, 639

Langedul, Christian, and son in law, J T., 704 709, 711

Langmantel, Hans, and servants, 429

Lantz, Peter, 431

Laurentius, 1096

Lauwerens, and wife, 624

Lauwerens, broommaker, 624

Lecks, Class, 481

----

----

Ledersnijder, Marcus de, 583

Leenaert, 592 595

Leendert, 575

Leentgen, wife of Jan van Rheenen, 764

Leerverkoaper, Henderick, 583

Leerverkoopster, Naentgen, 618

Leonidas, 118, 180

Leonides, 201, 127

Lettersetter, Tannekin, 640

Leuven, Francoys van, 968

Leuvens, Christoffel van, 969

Levina, 549

Leydecker, Peter, 445

Leyden, Lauwerens van der, 633 640

Leyden, Tonijntgen van der, and hus­band, Lieven, 633

Leyen, Lfeven van der, 639

Leyen, Nathanael van der, 639

Leyen, Tanneken van der, 550

Leytner, John, 644

Libich, George. 466

Lieven, 758

Lijntgen, 583

Lijntgen, 655

Lijntgen, 1008

Lijsken, 981, 983

Lincken, Mattheus van, and children, 947 951

Lindingerin, Martha, 1110

Lindne, Martha, 1121

Lindt, Tijs van, 496

Linschoten, Lijsken te. 1102

Lisz, Hansken, 655, 656

Lochmaier, Leonhard, 448

London and others, 1008, 1012, 1019 1024

Loosveldt, Pierijntgen, 962 965

Losenegger, Moritz, 1129

Lou, 961

Louvain, William van, 549

Louven, Willem van, 968

Louwerens, shoemaker, 1036

Lowijs, Jacob, 845

Luyckener, Hans de, 639, 640

Luyts, Cornelius, 465

M

Maeb, Jaapje, 568

Maebouts, Prijntgen, 670

Maelbouts, Martijntgen, 670 .

Maelschalck, 723, 724

Mass, Grietje, 764

Mass, Hans van, 631 633

Mass, Jan, 664, 665

Maastricht, Hendrik van, 765

Maeyken, 641

Maeyken. 655

Maeyken, 979, 983

Maeyken, Old, 623, 639

Magdaleentgen of Zealand, 967

Magdaleentken, 623

Mair, Mattheus, 1089 1091

Mair, Walter, 440

Mair, Wolfgang, 617

Maldegem, Betgetta, 656

Maidegem, Pieter van, 656

Male, Pieter van, 656

Maler, Anna and Ursula, 437

Mandel, Gerrit van; 766

Mandel, Jacob, 1057

Mange, John, 703

Mankager of Fusessen, 435, 436

Manz, Felix, 415

Marenj, Symon van, 894

Margrfet, 961

Margriete, 569

Maria of Monjou, 525

Marijntgen, 666

Mariken, 494, 495, 526

Mariken, 566

Mariken, 981, 983

Marritqe, 764

Martens, Victor, 586

Martha, 650

Martin, the painter, 439

Martin of Vilgraten, 449

Matschilder, Michael, 474

Mattheus, 624

Matthijs, Jells, 671 680

Maurer, Hans, 444

Maurlck, Stijntje van, 574

Meenen brethren, 586

Meenen, Mariken van, 655

Meenen, Pauwels van, sister of, 670

Meenene, France van, 659

Mesnwens, loos, 589

Meerssenier, Joost, 759

----

----

Meesch, Joris van, 845

Main, Hans, 562

Melchior, 439, 440

Meliss, Aecht, 465

Melisa, Class, 465

Mels, Johanna, 445

Melselaer,, Jacob de, 583

Mesdagh. Jacques, and sister, Susan­nah, 915 721 '

Meselaer, Class, 525

Metzer, Jan de, 982

Meulen, Pieter, van der, 666

Meulen, Tanneken van der, 759

Meulenaer, Andries, 655, 6$6

Meulenaers, Francijntgen, 655

Meyli, Huns, 1110

Meyli, Hans Jr., and wife, 1111

Meyli, Martin, and wife, 1110, 1111

Meylich, Moneth, 1121'

Meylin, Barbara, 1112, 1113

Meylin, Elizabeth, 1112

Michael the shoemaker, wife of, 847

Michiel, 1082, 1085, 1086

Michiels, Lucas, 483, 464

Mieuwess Dirck, 872

Misel, Hans, 893, 894

Moeyken, 758

Molenaersgraef, Adriaentgen fans van, 871

wIoilen, Griet P., 764

Monster, Han.. van die, 500

Motte, Gerard de la, 315

Moykaert, Class, and wife, 586

Moykaert, Janneken, 586

Mulerin, Catharino:, 1111

Muliers, Piersom de, and family, 737, 738

Muller, Hans, 1109

Mullerin, Ottila. 1112

Muller, Ulrich, 1119

Mully, Hans,' 1122 .

Munstdorp, Hans van; 983; 984, 989, 991

Munstdorp, Janneken, 981, 983, 984 991

Munstdorp, Passchier, 968, 989

N. Kalleken,.10$2; 1086

Nadminx, 764

Naexitgen, 503

Namesius, 254

Neckers, Pierijntgen, 962 965,. 984

Neett, Barbara, 1121

Neale, Starke, 574

Neelken, 918

Neeltgen and Trijntgen, 892 894

Niedermairy. Peter, 433

Nimrick, Hsrnies, 1103

Nine: Brethren and three sisters, 429.

Nine brethren arid several sisters, 437

Noele, 584

Noodtdruft, Lauwerens Janss, 1055'

Nose, Joost, 641

Nauts, Evert, 574,` 576 578

Oberacker, Hans, 445, 446

Oberlen, Christian, 1130

Ogiers, Anneken, 844

Ogiers, Jan. Anneken, daughter of, 844, 845

Ol, Adriaen, 818

Oldeknecht, Albert, 765

Olman, Pieter van, 536 538

Oosthbve, Pieter van, 666

Oosferi, Hans Marijns, 742, 757, 758

Opreyder, Class, 885 889, 891 893

Orval, 654

Oswald of Jamnits, 472, 475

Oudkleerkooper, Joris, 568

Outerman, Jells, 655

Overdam, Hans van, 486 493

P

Pacimontanus, Balthasar, 416

Paeu, Daniel de, 726

Palmen, Palmken, 496

Pan, Adriaen and wife, 618, 619

Panten, Bartholomeus, 1082 1088 '

Paris, Jan van, 723, 724

Parmentier, Hansken and Tells, 655.

Passchier, 968. 989

Pastor, Adam, 542

Pauw, tan, 763

Pelgnius, Veit, 440

Page 1147 original book

Peltner, Hans, 993

Pennewaerts, Jan, 483 484

Pesemaecher, Kalleken de, 639

Peter the servant, 440

Peter of Spain, 640

Peters, Rhode, 1124

Petz, Hans, 447

Philip of Langenlonaheim, 438

Philips, Maertjen, 847

Phister, Hans, 1120

Phister, Warner, and son's wife, 1118

Pichner, Hans of Sal, 550

Picolet, Abraham, 818 823

Pickelen, Maeyken, 1080

Pierijntgen, 666

Pierken, 724

Piersom, Margriete, 738

Pieter, 550

Pieter, the miller, 569

Pieter, Old, 759

Pieter, shoemaker, and wife, Jacomijnt­ gen, 665

Platers, Adriaen, 583

Pieters, Adriaen, 848

Pieters, Digna, 550, 551

Pieters, Lauwerens, 723, 724

Pieters, Maarten, 740

Pieters, Maeyken, 1060

Pieters, Quirinus, 474

Pietersen, alias Borrekiek, 765

Pieters, Jan, 929 931

Pieters, Jan, 1008 1011, 1017 1024

Pinder, Wolfgang, 874, 875

Plattner, Virgil, 432, 433

Platser, Jacob, 1082

Platser, Melchior, 1058

Plover, Peter, 440

Pleun, 524

Pleunis, 654

Plover, Lenaert, 641 643

Poperinge, Willem van, and wife, Maeyken, 766

Portier, Jan, 722

Pottebacker, Mattheus, 633

Pottebacker, Mattheus de, 639

Potvliet, Jelis, 656

Potvliet, Pieter, 656, 659

Potvliets, Stijntgen, 653

Pouwel, 812

Prader, Cariusetal, 433

Praet, Class de, 554 560

Pretle, Hans, 427

Pruchmatr, George, 1060, 1061

Pruyt, Hendrick, 1005, 1006

n

Questinex, 483, 484

Quirijnss, Jan, 832 836

R

Raeck, George, 646

Raedts, Maeyken, 704, 708

Raes, Jan van, 759

Raet, Karel de, and wife, Grietgen, 725

Ramaecker, Remken, 497

Raufer, Wolfgang, 1060, 1061

Reve, Hans van der, 431

Rayer, William, 574

Reyers, Albert, 765

Reynerts, Djaert, 454

Rhais, 203, 128

Ries, Fluchtthal, 429

Rieu, Adrian du, 704

Rijcen, Christiaen, 1063 1069

Rijcker, Willem de, 961

Ring, Hans, 1119

Roders, Class, 464

Roelands, Janneken, 759

Rogfers, Adriaen, 947, 951 954, 959

Rommeken, 550

Roore, Jacob de, 371, 803, 774 818

Rousselare, Sijntgen van, 967, 968

Ruegsegger, Stephen, 1130

Ruff, Barbly, 1121

Rusterhel, Jacob, 1114

Rusterholtz, Jacob, 1110, 1114

Rutsaert and wife, 655

Ruyter, Hans de, and wife and daugh­ter, 1056

S

S. Margriete, 1076

S. Tanneken de, 620 622

Sach, Francis van der, 664

Sanderijntgen, 967

Sattler, Michael, 416 420

Schaeck, Hansken, 725

----

----

Schepens, Jeronymus, 1026, 1028, 1035, 1036

Schilder, Dirk de, 583

Schlaeffer, Hans, 425, .426

Schlaper, Jan de, 766

Schlebach, Jegly, 1124

Schlosser, Nicholas, 643, 644

Schmede, Ulli, 1114

Schmied, Uhbi, 1109

Schnebbi, Henry, 1118

Schneider, Gallus, 1118

Schneider, Leopold, 426

Schneider, Ulli, 1114

Schneider, Ulrich, and two sons, 1115, 1129

Schneider, Wolfert, 444

Schooner, Leonhard, 424, 425

Schoenmaecker, Maarten, 583

Schoolmaster, Valius, 726

Schoonvelt, Anthonis, 652 654

Schuh, John, 654, 655

Schumacher, Caspar, 449

Schumacher, Hans, 465

Schumacher, Hans, 1130

Schumacher, Konrad, 574

Schumacher, Laurence, 440

Schweitzer, Hans, 1129

Seckler, Hans, 1129

Segers, Jerome, and wife, 504 522

Seidenkohen, Cumas, 1129

Seifensieder, Michael, 445

Sengius, Paulus, 102 105

Servaes, Aelken, 697

Servaes, Aeltgen, 700

Servaes, Anna, 958

Servaes, Barbara, 898

Servaes, Frances, 698

Servaes, John, 698

Servaes, Matthias, 688 703

Seven brethren, 433

Seventeen, 496

Seventy, 433

Seventy, 424, 425

Seyel, Hans, 450

Seyle, Apollonia, 450

Sijntgen, Lame, 968

Sijntgen, 1069

Simeraver, Hans, 455

Simon, 540

Simons, Joviaen, 563 568

Simons, Menno, 454, 455, 466, 474, 481, 498, 592, 603, 607, 609, 686, 726, 775, 780, 788, 795,.994, 996, 997, 1050, 1096, 1097, 1134

Six banished, 429

Sixty eight, 422

Sluys, Grietgen van, 959, 968

Sluys, Margriet van der, 953

Smit, Hans, 588, 620 622

Smit, Jan, 962

Smit, Jan de, 726

Smit, Marcus de, 620 622

Smit, Matthijs, 590

Smith, a, 502

Smits, Lijsken, 640

Smuel, Dirk Platers, 475 481

Snijder, Dileman, 588

Snijder, Willem de, and wife, Chris­ tijntgen, 725, 726

Somere, Jaques de, 1019 1022

Somerhuys, Lijsbet and Catharina, 885 888

Spillebout, Jacob, 620 622

Stautdach, Hans, and three others, 474, 475

Stayaerts, Lippijntgen, 740, 968

Stayert, Pieter, 759

Stayert, Roselandt, 759

Steens, Kalleken, 665

Steinmetz, George, 439

Stevens, Michael, 447

Stijntgen, 583

Stoffel, 1076

Straten, Beliken van der, 953 958, 960

Straten, Hans van der, and wife, Tan­ neken, 875, 876

Straten, Hans van, 1010, 1022 1024

Straten, Maarten van der, 947, 953 961

Stricke, Conrad, 1122

Strings, Jelfs, 656 660

Strings, Kalleken, 652 655

Stucki, Peter, 1129

Studen, Barbeli zur, 1129

Stuss, Hans, 1122

Styaerts, John, 449

Suhner, Rudolf, 1120

Sumer, Hendrick, 1057

Sumeraver, Leonhart, 1060, 1061

Summis, Wald, 1129

----

----

Swarte, Franchoys de, and wife, Klaes­ken, 663

Swarte, Jacob de, 583

Swarte, Jan de, and wife, Klaesken, and four sons, Christian, Hans, Klass, Mahieu, 664, 665

Sweendtreger, Frans, 550

Symons, Hans, 704 706, 709 713

Symons, Kaerle, Vincent, and Willem, 711

T

Taller, Hans, 440

Tanckreet, Kaerle, 620 622

Tanckreet, Proentken, 620 622

Tanneken, 583, 639

Tanneken, wife of Vincent Symons, 709 711

Tanneken, 1029

Taschrinkmaker, jasper den, and wife, Maeyken van der Goes, 758, 819

Tauber, Casper, 414

Teerlings, Jaecxken, 759

Ten burned, 871

Terwoort, Handrick, 1008, 1009, 1011, 1017 1019, 1021 1024

Thennis, Jacob, 577

Thielemans, Barbara, 483, 484

Thielemans, Jan, 721 736

Thirty seven imprisoned, 1124

Thomas, 428

Thomas, the printer, 693, 696, 697

Three burned, 987

Three brethren and two sisters, 428

Three hundred fifty executed, 437

Thymans, Pieter, 536

Tiban, Frans, 583

Tiegem, Karel van, 617

Tieleman, Joris, 640

Tielleman, 526

Tijncke, Boudewijn, 1030

Tijs, 539, 540

Timmerman, Herman, 766 770

Tfmmermans, Maeyken, 795, 796

Tinker, a, from Emmenthal, 1129

Tollenaer, Jacomijntgen, 1069, 1078

Tollenaer, Jarmaken de, 1069, 1078

Tollenaer, Joost de, Natanael, and Bet­ gen de, 968, 1069 1080

Tollenaer, Lowijs de, 1069, 1078

Tollinger, Christian, 435, 436

Tomme, Absalom van, 582

Topigh, 436

Tower, Puttox, 551

Trams, Maeykens, 655

Trijnes, Pieter, 464

Twelve Christians burned, 885 888

Two believers of Bix executed, 1129

Two brethren drowned, 441

Two brethren and four sisters, 435

Two beheaded, 440

Two thousand slain, 429

U

Ulman, Wolfgang, 427

Ulrich of Ruegsau, 1129

Uticken, Hans van, and wife, 1113

V

Valerius, the schoolmaster, 930

Vandruynen, Paul, 447

Vaser, George, 446

Velde, Karel van den, and wife, Proent­gen, 663

Velde, Raphel van den, and Tannaken, and son, Raphelken, 1026 1035

Velius, Dr. Dirk Volkertaz, 738

Verbeeck, Joos, 652

Vercoilgen, Sijntgen, 740

Verdussen, Hieronymus, 1095

Vargas, John, 1095

Verkamer, Lauwerens, 740

Verkampt, Daniel, 582

Verkindert, Joost, and brothers, Michiel and Pleun, 844 863

Verlonge, Pieter, 766

Vermeerch, Hans, 631 833

Verstralen, Hendrick, and wife, Jan­neken, 877 882, 887, 888

Verstralen, Janneken, 877 880

Vet, Melchior, 416

Vette, Hans de, 620 622

Vette, Maritgen de, 620 622

Vettre, Claudine le and husband, Pier­som des Muliers, and a brother, 737, 738

Vick, Mattheus de, 704 707, 711

Page 1148 original book

Vijntgen, 656

Vincentius, 1097

Vischer, Michael, 1063

Vlaster, Anna de, 874

Vleckwijck, Herman van, 774, 785 798

Vreden, Hendrick van, 592

Vrees, Claes de, Lijsabet, wife of, 872

Vooren, Daniel van, 726

Vroevrouwe, Fransken, 618

W

Wael, Charlo de, 663

Waelty, Bernhard, 1129

Wagemaker, Tan Pieterss, 1011

Wagman, Ully, 1122, 1123

Wagner, George, 416

Wale, Antonijn de, 666

Walen, John and two others, 424

Walle, Lauwerens van de, 652 654

Walraven, Jacques, 563, 1007

Walraven, Janneken, 563

Walraven, Tanneken, 1007

Walter of Stoelwijk, 455 464

Wanger, George, 1080 1082

Wanrij, Sarah, 1120

Wader, Jan, 759

Weber, George, 1113, 1114

Weert, Pieter Bruynen van, 523

Wege, Jacob van, and Tanneken, Griet­ gen, and Betgen, 969 977

----

----

Wege, Hansken van den, and wife, Cijntgen, 864 870

Welter, Tanneken van den, 960, 977

Welmut of Jans, 443

Welsch, Anthony, 664

Wens, Adriaen, and brother, Hans Mattheus, 980 982

Wens, Hansken, 982

Wens, Maeyken, 979, 980

Wens, Mattheus, and family, 979 983

Wens, Sijntgen, 1069

Werwijck, Pieter van, 536 538

Wesel, Dirck van, and wife, Janneken, 885

Wessenmdler, Peter, 1130

Wetteren, Christian van, 666

Wevel, Grietgen, 984

Waver, Jan de, 1070

Waver, Louwijs de, 583

Weyndelken, 1056

Weynken, 422 424

Weyns, Passchier, 726

Wideman, Michael, 449

Wiggers, William, 442

Wiljoost, Jan, 766

Willeboort, 677

Willem, 525

Willem of Bierck, 526

Willems, Adrian, 721, 722

Willems, Arendt, 574

Willems, Dirk, 741, 742

Wlllemss, Olivier, 1007

----

----

Willenesse, Cornelis, 763

Willer, Hans, 1129

Willher, Barbell, 1129

William, 465

Wippe, Joris, 551, 584, 585, 926

Wit, Jacob, 758

Witses, Pieter, 548, 549

Wolfgang, 435

Women, two or three arrested, 930

Wouter, 503

Wouters, Aeltjen, 764

Wouters, Maeyken, 1091 1093

Wouterss, Dirck, 899

Wouterss, Sander, 944

Wubbers, Remmeltje, 547

Wucherer, Hans, 447

Wyjcke, Maerten van, and wife, Lijs­ken, 846

Y

Yde, and husband, 758

Yperes, Jacob van, 569

Ysbaerta, Anthonis, 991

Yabrant, Adriana, 764

z

Zaeyweuer, Maerten, 568

Zager, Willem de, 758

Zaug, Hans, 1124

Zaunringerad, George, 440

Zehender, Stephen, 1114, 1115

Page 1149"

To name a few of those who said:

"Me, me, me, me, anyone else?"

---

Monopolies

Here is my contention to offer in discussion in pressing matters of relative importance.

There is a list here:

http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/map/...

Some of those human beings, led, or misled, don't have heads, some don't have names.

Are they punished by God for being bad, for failing to follow orders?

I have a audio tape from the days when I tried to get time off of work, time off of raising a family, time off of enjoying life as I think is my duty too, to set an example worthy of reproduction, to investigate more precisely those events in my time, in America, in Texas, ON MY DIME.

On the audio tape are the words of the main Target, the main tax evader, the person who changed his name from Vernon Howell to David Koresh. What was on that tape was a message to anyone who may listen. I listened. It basically says, if I heard the message well enough, which is certainly doubtful, and I can quote from it if needed, for help in understanding the message offered, be that as it may be, I think the message is this:

Beware of false prophets, they lie, and therefore it is up to you, as an individual, your responsibility, accountable to you, to find out the truth from God, not from man.

I can be wrong, of course, and Vernon Howell can be wrong, of course, how wrong can wrong get, and how do you measure this wrong stuff?

If there is a way to help other people and avoid having all your loved ones tortured in front of your eyes while all your loved ones are beheaded, piled into a pile, burned alive, and run over by tanks, then is that a good idea to work toward helping other people and avoiding all that uncomfortable stuff?

I see these very evil people, so I focus attention on the worst ones first, and so I think it is helpful to point those people out to other people as if saying, look, those people are lying a lot, and those people are threatening a lot, and here are their lies, this one, this one, this one, and here are their threats, here, here, and here, and by the way, here are all these bodies, on this list of former innocent people who were once alive and helping people move from worse to better, now these people, with names, or without names, with heads, or without heads, are dead, at the hands of these people, this person, this one, this one, and since these deaths are financed with my earnings, then I have to point out the need to check your wallet, see what kind of money you use, check your IRS return, see where your money is going, and then look in the mirror.

I'm nuts.

I get that a lot.

I'm a party pooper.

I'm such a drag.

Costly me, with the broken record.

Pointing to the endless flow of tortured and dead victims, and saying look, there are the victims in that endless flow of victims, is one thing, I get it, as plain as the big nose on my face.

What churns out, like a big meat grinder, those victims, perpetually?

There is an Elephant in the room, a real thing, not a figurative thing, and it is not stomping random people out, it is precisely removing the best people, the most competitive people, and it works well enough, precise enough, good enough, according to the trainers of the Elephant, the stomping machine, the meat grinder, to SAVE the worst among us.

What happens over time?

The best are turned to pulp, with lists, lists, and more lists of names added to the pile, or numbers, when names are forgotten.

The worst are rewarded with destructive POWER of unimaginable magnitude, and there is a Top Ten list if anyone cares to look.

At least, the very least, it seems to me, a moral person aught to consider the concept of working less effectively at moving more power from those who produce that power to those on the Top Ten list, and that can't be done if all the productive people are led to believe that they must work harder to pay more to those worse people as a solution to the problem of having to work too hard.

Sure, I get it, absolute faith in goodness, real goodness, true goodness, is worth fighting for, worth preserving, worth giving up everything to preserve so that life can continue a few days longer, instead of life being destroyed, snuffed out, ended, gone forever.

What is the next thing I should do boss?

Joe

Watchman on the Wall

"Are they punished by God for being bad, for failing to follow orders?"

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/ezekiel/33-audio.html

"I can be wrong, of course, and Vernon Howell can be wrong, of course, how wrong can wrong get, and how do you measure this wrong stuff?"

I suppose that if one were to look at wrong as a point just a little off a straight line, the further from the point of wrong traveled away from the straight line, the further from the straight ling wrong would be.

"I'm nuts.

I get that a lot.

I'm a party pooper.

I'm such a drag.

Costly me, with the broken record."

The prophets were seen this way as well...the people did not want to hear the bad news of their ways or make any corrections to go back to the straight line.

I wish, Joe, that you would trust the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior.

I included that audio because your words caused me to think of that passage. Here is the written text: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/ezekiel/33.html

...

How about a competitive viewpoint or two?

"When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 1"

While pretending to be a subject of the FUND, oops, I mean a citizen of the Nation State, doing my "duty" and placing stamps on bills to be sent to various monopoly power companies, gas, electric, water, whatever.

I'm placing these stamps which look like American Flags up-side-down on the letters. Each Flag has one of three words written on the Stamp under the Flag.

Freedom
Liberty
Justice

I'm thinking, while pretending to obey orders without question, doing my duty, paying the tax, knowing how wrong it is, and thinking, well, what is Freedom, Liberty, and Justice?

Freedom is when someone can just punch some innocent person in the nose.

Liberty is when the victim then can cut the free person's hand off, for punching an innocent person in the nose.

Justice is when no one else gives either of those two the time of day from that day forward, without some serious negotiating done honestly.

Also, I'm watching all these flags at half mast, while the sky is getting sprayed from blue to white today. Why not make the flag poles half as high since the flags are at half mast all the time now. Then the flags can be lowered even lower, then save more on flag pole costs by cutting then down again. Pretty soon the flags will be on the ground, then lower, all the way to hell eventually.

I like this flag:

http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/us.capitol/one.jpg

Joe

Competition

"I'm placing these stamps which look like American Flags up-side-down on the letters. Each Flag has one of three words written on the Stamp under the Flag.

Freedom
Liberty
Justice"

Good idea...I think I will do that too. I gave my Post Master an earfull when I purchased those stamps that said that. I told him that "Freedom, Liberty and Justice did not include paying more than 6 months of wages in Taxes and Regulations."

I am sure there are cameras in the Post Office. I have had much to say in that office.

Perhaps we should come up with a stamp to publish those words under all those upside down stamps:

"Freedom, Liberty and Justice do not include paying more than 6 months of wages in Taxes and Regulations."

A Mail Revolution!!!

...