10 votes

Whom Does God Help?

An off topic discussion has been moved from http://www.dailypaul.com/259985/liberty-day-challenge-july-4... to this new On Topic Post.

Josf’s words from http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2897974

“God helps those who help themselves, it seems to me, and those who obey falsehood without question, it seems to me, are godless creatures who will get what they buy with their stolen loot.”

And specifically the cliché “God helps those who help themselves” is challenged by bear thus setting up the question: "Who does God help?"

1. God helps those who trust Him
2. God helps those who help themselves

Answered by bear http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2904731:

Trust and obedience go hand in hand. The Israelites where told not to take from the spoils of Jericho. But, Achan did:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/6-audio.html &
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/7-audio.html .

Israel was routed and 36 died because of one man’s disobedience. One man’s disobedience caused him and his whole household to be stoned and burned with fire. The harlot, she was in the genealogy of Jesus.

The passages that you just listened to can be applied to this verse:

• Proverbs 21:31 KJV
The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD.

So, yes, there is a sense in which we “help ourselves” by preparing for battle. But no matter how well prepared safety will be from the LORD.

And these words:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

In preparing for battle, one cannot only lean on their own understanding of how the world works. One must also know and obey the Word of God. Failure to obey God is being wise in your own eyes. It is saying, “I know better than God does.” I will do it my way.

That concept is boiled down in to a simple phrase here:
• 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Which can be seen evidenced in this battle plan given to Gideon:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/judges/7-audio.html

And then here you will see that King Asa is chastised because he did not rely on the Lord. He relied on other nations and kings for help and look what the result was…endless battles. Why? Because the Lord looks for those who will trust him in order to show himself strong on their behalf and the King did not look to God for his help. He walked by sight. Not by faith.

II Chronicles 16:7 And at that time Hanani the seer came to Asa king of Judah, and said unto him, Because thou hast relied on the king of Syria, and not relied on the LORD thy God, therefore is the host of the king of Syria escaped out of thine hand. 8 Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand.9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Why should we trust God? Because He is the Creator of Heaven and Earth. All POWER is His. He passes that POWER to those who trust Him and wait on Him. Those who walk by Faith and not by sight. Those who trust Him will not grow weary.

Isaiah 55:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. 29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: 31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

So, that is a lot of Old Testament Promise and History. Here is the New Testament. Jesus said:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We must abide or walk or live or rest or trust or have faith in Christ. Without Him we can do nothing. What does he want us to do?

Again in John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Simply: LOVE.

Complete audio of John 15: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/john/15-audio.html

Look, I think this is hard. Paul wrote this:

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I don’t know what that means when it comes to war. Does it mean what it says? I do not know. Supposedly we became a nation and a church won the battle of Lexington and Concord

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin735.htm .

The Amish which are pacifists have safe refuge here in the states because men from a church fired the shot heard around the world when the British came to seize the arms…according to Chuck Baldwin.

“On April 19, 1775, British troops, some 800 strong, were dispatched to Concord, Massachusetts, to arrest Sam Adams and John Hancock and to seize a cache of weapons known to be stored at Concord. When Dr. Joseph Warren sent Paul Revere to warn Pastor Jonas Clark (in whose home Adams and Hancock were staying) that the Crown’s troops were on their way to arrest the two men and seize the guns at Concord, he alerted his male congregants. About 60-70 men from the Church of Lexington stood armed on Lexington Green awaiting the Red Coats.

Upon spotting the citizen militia, a British officer demanded the men throw down their arms. They refused; and the British troops immediately opened fire. Eight of the Minutemen were instantly killed. The colonists returned fire in self-defense, and the shot was fired that was heard ’round the world. By the time the troops arrived at the Concord Bridge, just a few miles away, hundreds of colonists were waiting for them with muskets in hand, and the rest, as they say, is history.”

He quotes infowars.com in this article: http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin734.htm

Baldwin is the one that says the Christian and every other US person owes allegiance to the constitution, not to government because the government is under the constitution…remember that conversation we had regarding Romans 13?

I am not studied on war and what is right for the Christian. We have Old Testament examples of God being with the Israelites when they were following His instruction and seeking His help and guidance. Here Jesus says these words:

Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Those words are said right before he was taken by the Chief Priest and delivered for crucifiction. He had earlier in his ministry sent his disciples out to proclaim that the Kingdom of God was at hand and he sent them without money or preparation and they were provided for and were in need of nothing. But before he was to die he told them to buy a sword. Then Peter used the sword when they came to get Jesus and here is what Jesus did and said. In Luke it is in the same chapter but I am giving you Matthew because He records more of Jesus’ words. Jesus heals the servant of the man who is arresting him and tells Peter to put the sword away because they that take up the sword will die by the sword.

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled , that thus it must be?

If you read all of Chuck Baldwin’s words that I gave you…He is ready to become an outlaw if they try to outlaw his semi-auto. He is a Pastor. He was a Baptist Pastor in Florida. He was from an independent group…I am part of the Southern Baptist Group. Anyways Chuck does not believe churches should be 501.3c either. I have also heard him say that when he was a part of the “Moral Majority” group something to the effect that someone in the group conceded for a “seat at the table.” The table would be those of the political criminals probably the CFR. Anyways Chuck said something like…”Is that all you want.” Like that was a ridiculous concession. I heard all of that more than a year ago and I am not repeating it exactly as said, but if you are interested, I will find a link if I can. I just say all of that to say, that he is serious, and does not appear to be “sleeping with the enemy…or accepting a seat at the table of the enemy.”

Last of all I say this:

• Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes, you must help yourself, but in doing so, you cannot exclude God’s help if you expect to have his help. You cannot make a “deal with the devil” for victory and expect safety in battle.

If you look at Gideon’s battle you will see that God whittled the number down to 300 hundred men. A ridiculously low number, but a number that God would use to deliver the victory and give HIMSELF the glory. God will not share glory with another. He says this:

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

God will accomplish what He will accomplish for His Glory alone. If we help ourselves outside of His help, we will not have His help. His help requires faith.

So then, you must have faith to please God. How then will you get faith:
• Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The only way you will have faith is that you must be able to hear. The only way you will be able to hear is by hearing the word of God. That is why we have Old Testament and New Testament accounts and promises to rest upon. They are like monuments or commemorations of the faithfulness of God to those who will have hearts that are perfect toward Him because He is looking for those to whom He can show Himself strong upon their behalf.

Yes, the way is narrow:

• Matthew 7:14 KJV
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Which is why He uses the foolishness of the preaching of the cross:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Kinda sounds ridiculous doesn't it? The preaching of the cross sounds foolish. The whole concoction that some man 2000 years ago was God in Flesh and died on a cross so that you could have peace with God.

But, maybe you are one of the called and therefore will witness that power of God in Salvation in your own life. Kinda like you gotta be a Gideon with 300 men; or a David with a stone to kill a giant; or a Joe with a Jesus to please God.

• Titus 3:5 KJV
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

If you will be saved Joe, none of the glory will be shared with you or with me. It will all be God’s glory. You are powerless to save yourself and I am powerless to save you. Only God’s mercy will save you and you must be called to experience that mercy.

Again:
• Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
--------------------------------------------------
From this answer Josf suggests a new topic covering the resulting questions http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2905602
It may be a good idea to continue the discussion in a separate topic as the subject matter turns toward the verses you now offer.

Who exactly is This Lord when The Lord orders human beings to murder innocent children, and then one human being listens to that order and that one human being obeys that order without question?

1. Who is speaking those orders - exactly.
2. Who obeys those orders - exactly.

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Ha!

My brother sent me a 100 dollar bill. I'm not getting my printing shopping done right now, trading stories with a friend of Liberty instead, and on that 100 dollar bill the first thing I did was go to my desk and get out my Ron Paul for President Stamp.

Now that 100 dollar bill has in Red Ink, on both sides, the message intended. If I can't keep that 100 dollar bill, and frame it, then it will travel, circulate, like so many 1 dollar bills I have stamped so far, in the past. I actually didn't stamp very many dollars, but the idea was so cool I ordered the stamp and started stamping for awhile during the first election (if I remember right).

I can check my forum.

http://www.ronpaulstamps.com/

I could not find it on my forum, and that link says 2012.

Mail is currency, so a mail revolution is a currency revolution no?

Joe

And I am so fortunate

to have a Friend in Liberty who shares stories and ways of Liberty of Liberty with me.

I am so interested to know what you find out about printing. Please tell me. Maybe I can place an order too. Maybe a printer can ship to 2 addresses?

Why not?

If they can ship to one, then they can ship to two, but today I have Real Estate type work to complete, so shopping is on hold, and I may not get serious about shopping until Monday.

Joe

I'm working here,

but I just got the call..."Mom, I'm kinda hungry," and it is 4 so I better figure out what to feed my boys...I cannot believe how much they eat. Jeff and I used to eat left overs 3 times. Now I am lucky to have something left for their lunches the next day. :o

Not the same

Just a quick comment. Contraception is *not* the same as abstinence. There is nothing to contracept when you are not having sex. Sex inherently is a procreative act, and contraception is an act against its procreative nature. Contraception is actively stopping a natural outcome of sex. Abstaining does not attack a particular act of sex.

Let's say you don't want a gift. You can smash it, or you can leave it unused. The two actions are not the same, even though the final outcome of the gift not being used is the same.

Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Mary, Our Mother, protect us under your mantle.

In context

The point is that those who intend to deceive know how to do it.

If you don't intend to deceive, then you may know how to do that, and defining the terms you use is an obviously effective step in that direction.

If God helps someone, then God helps someone, if not, then where is the disconnection? Who, exactly, is held to account, and by who?

Joe schmo pulls out, suddenly realizing the truth, or is the idea to obey God and keep at it?

I don't need a child raping false authority, prostrated in front of Obama, telling me which is the way I need to go to get to heaven, or maybe I do, so I look to bear for help.

Your help is appreciated too, and maybe your fine example is well worth reproducing.

Thanks

Joe

Triplicate Stutter

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Triplicate Stutter

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Triplicate Stutter

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I think he helps those that use the subjective case "who"

instead of the objective case "whom" when choosing the subject in a sentence.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the impulse.

"Bend over and grab your ankles" should be etched in stone at the entrance to every government building and every government office.

Hi Henry

Isn't the subject the one doing the work of helping? So the subject of the sentence is God. And the one to whom the work is being done is the object? i.e. God helps whom? = Whom does God help? http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/who-versus-whom.aspx

Really though, when I first put the topic up I used Who and someone below alluded that it was incorrect so I changed it. Now after reading your comment I decided to go check.

Then again, you may be just messing with me lol because who/whom twists my brain a little.

Hey Bear!

Inspirational stuff! God helps those who follow the path of Jesus Christ.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Not just the gospel

Just remember the word of God is not just the gospel, it is the whole Bible, many Christians today think as long as te read the gospel they can effectively do Gods work, but you can't. You must learn from all of it. Just throwing this out there. :) we also need to teach people that the Bible is about liberty, not tyranny under a God. Yes we are called to do his work, be we still always have the choice to do his work however we wish, just give Him the glory for it.

Have to disagree

Jesus is the complete fulfillment of all previous laws of God.

His laws encompass all those other laws, e.g. Mosaic law, into this:

- "Love God"
- "Love other people as yourself"

Because it is impossible to break any one of the other laws of God if you keep these laws. Jesus Christ is all that is required. Hallelujah!!

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Hi Willl!

I have a burden for Friends of Liberty, that they might know as Paul says:

...the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Ephesians 3:19 KJV

I have that burden for myself also, come to think of it!

Romans 11:33 KJV
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Thank you for stopping in and turing my mind to those Scriptures!

I know God is there, even when . . .

it seems I have been forgotten.

This is a very complicated question. I know some truly amazing and spiritual people who have been thrown one debilitating curve after another, and I know some shallow, greedy people whose lives are full to overflowing with what many Christians would call "blessings"--

God's ways are not man's ways--

so having faith is the ultimate test and the only thing that matters.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Your Words are So True!

I can tell you for certain as a person who has looked into the face of death both personally and thru family members; as a person who has suffered and somewhat continues to do so...as little as we Americans know of suffering...that it is in those times that My God is ever so Faithful to me. Thru those times of hardship I have been able to trust and depend on Him in ways I would have never known thru blessing. And of course, I enjoy the blessings of God every day. They are abundant.

Yes, I agree with Job.

Job 13:15 KJV
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

I rather be in the valley with God than on a mountain top without Him. He is faithful and I know his faithfulness because I know His Son, and most importantly, His Son knows and has saved me.

...

I affirm what you both are saying:

There is a great comfort in knowing that God is most faithful when we need him most:

This verse, also from Job, comforts me when thinking about the issue of death:

Job 19:25 - 27

"I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end He will stand upon the earth. After my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh shall I see God. I myself will see Him, with my own eyes, I and not another. How my heart yearns within me!"

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Denise B's picture

Thank you bear,

your words remind me of a verse I often look to and find comfort in:

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Hi Denise,

I love that verse. Here is another one that sometimes gives an additional "why" to suffering:

2 Corinthians 1:4 KJV
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

He is our comfort! And we glory in our infirmities because the power of Christ will rest un us! We can help others thru that power and comfort. Wonderful thoughts!

Denise B's picture

Hi Bear,

I love that one as well! Charles Spurgeon did a fabulous sermon on that very verse and it is one of my favorites. Through our suffering, we are now well equiped to help others through theirs. As usual bear, I love to read your insightful and heartfelt comments. You are a very special person and a blessing to everyone on the DP! :)

Thank you Denise,

Your words are an encouragement to me. Thank you for your kindness!

Colossians 3:16 KJV
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

My favorite verse. "I lift my

My favorite verse.

"I lift my eyes up to the hills, where does my help come from? My help comes from the lord the maker of heaven and earth."

I have used this time and time again when I am faced with a task beyond my ability.

Thank you

that is a wonderful promise from Psalm 121. Thank you for bringing it to my remembrance this morning!

God sends his rain on the just and unjust.

God loves everyone and wants to draw each person back to Himself. God sends his rain on the just and the unjust. So, he helps everyone according to their ability/desire to listen to Him and follow Him. Many will not, and from their own freedom, suffer. Sometimes God's help feels like pain and suffering. Our will is often contrary to His, and He will permit 'evils' or pain/suffering into our lives to help turn us from errant ways.

Thank you for stopping in!

Your comment reminds me of 2 verses:

2 Peter 3:9 KJV
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

and

Romans 2:4 KJV
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Have a great weekend!

interesting isnt it . . .

that the religous right reference God's power, but out the other side of their mouth they think that Israel NEEEEEDS the US to help them constantly.
What a joke!

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Absolutely!

My answer to Israel Firsters who are worried about Iran us simple: "No need to worry about Israel. I've read Revelation and Israel's still there."

astute comment--

staggering the amount of propaganda, brainwashing and manipulation has taken place--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

who doesnt God help?

the proud, haughty.

Those who practice or desire unjust actions, attitudes
Those who know not mercy

Those whose actions are opposed to Christ's words - like neocons, many of the religous right in this country who LOOOVE the sword as long it's killing folks in foreign lands.

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson