10 votes

Whom Does God Help?

An off topic discussion has been moved from http://www.dailypaul.com/259985/liberty-day-challenge-july-4... to this new On Topic Post.

Josf’s words from http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2897974

“God helps those who help themselves, it seems to me, and those who obey falsehood without question, it seems to me, are godless creatures who will get what they buy with their stolen loot.”

And specifically the cliché “God helps those who help themselves” is challenged by bear thus setting up the question: "Who does God help?"

1. God helps those who trust Him
2. God helps those who help themselves

Answered by bear http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2904731:

Trust and obedience go hand in hand. The Israelites where told not to take from the spoils of Jericho. But, Achan did:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/6-audio.html &
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/7-audio.html .

Israel was routed and 36 died because of one man’s disobedience. One man’s disobedience caused him and his whole household to be stoned and burned with fire. The harlot, she was in the genealogy of Jesus.

The passages that you just listened to can be applied to this verse:

• Proverbs 21:31 KJV
The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD.

So, yes, there is a sense in which we “help ourselves” by preparing for battle. But no matter how well prepared safety will be from the LORD.

And these words:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

In preparing for battle, one cannot only lean on their own understanding of how the world works. One must also know and obey the Word of God. Failure to obey God is being wise in your own eyes. It is saying, “I know better than God does.” I will do it my way.

That concept is boiled down in to a simple phrase here:
• 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Which can be seen evidenced in this battle plan given to Gideon:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/judges/7-audio.html

And then here you will see that King Asa is chastised because he did not rely on the Lord. He relied on other nations and kings for help and look what the result was…endless battles. Why? Because the Lord looks for those who will trust him in order to show himself strong on their behalf and the King did not look to God for his help. He walked by sight. Not by faith.

II Chronicles 16:7 And at that time Hanani the seer came to Asa king of Judah, and said unto him, Because thou hast relied on the king of Syria, and not relied on the LORD thy God, therefore is the host of the king of Syria escaped out of thine hand. 8 Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand.9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Why should we trust God? Because He is the Creator of Heaven and Earth. All POWER is His. He passes that POWER to those who trust Him and wait on Him. Those who walk by Faith and not by sight. Those who trust Him will not grow weary.

Isaiah 55:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. 29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: 31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

So, that is a lot of Old Testament Promise and History. Here is the New Testament. Jesus said:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We must abide or walk or live or rest or trust or have faith in Christ. Without Him we can do nothing. What does he want us to do?

Again in John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Simply: LOVE.

Complete audio of John 15: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/john/15-audio.html

Look, I think this is hard. Paul wrote this:

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I don’t know what that means when it comes to war. Does it mean what it says? I do not know. Supposedly we became a nation and a church won the battle of Lexington and Concord

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin735.htm .

The Amish which are pacifists have safe refuge here in the states because men from a church fired the shot heard around the world when the British came to seize the arms…according to Chuck Baldwin.

“On April 19, 1775, British troops, some 800 strong, were dispatched to Concord, Massachusetts, to arrest Sam Adams and John Hancock and to seize a cache of weapons known to be stored at Concord. When Dr. Joseph Warren sent Paul Revere to warn Pastor Jonas Clark (in whose home Adams and Hancock were staying) that the Crown’s troops were on their way to arrest the two men and seize the guns at Concord, he alerted his male congregants. About 60-70 men from the Church of Lexington stood armed on Lexington Green awaiting the Red Coats.

Upon spotting the citizen militia, a British officer demanded the men throw down their arms. They refused; and the British troops immediately opened fire. Eight of the Minutemen were instantly killed. The colonists returned fire in self-defense, and the shot was fired that was heard ’round the world. By the time the troops arrived at the Concord Bridge, just a few miles away, hundreds of colonists were waiting for them with muskets in hand, and the rest, as they say, is history.”

He quotes infowars.com in this article: http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin734.htm

Baldwin is the one that says the Christian and every other US person owes allegiance to the constitution, not to government because the government is under the constitution…remember that conversation we had regarding Romans 13?

I am not studied on war and what is right for the Christian. We have Old Testament examples of God being with the Israelites when they were following His instruction and seeking His help and guidance. Here Jesus says these words:

Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Those words are said right before he was taken by the Chief Priest and delivered for crucifiction. He had earlier in his ministry sent his disciples out to proclaim that the Kingdom of God was at hand and he sent them without money or preparation and they were provided for and were in need of nothing. But before he was to die he told them to buy a sword. Then Peter used the sword when they came to get Jesus and here is what Jesus did and said. In Luke it is in the same chapter but I am giving you Matthew because He records more of Jesus’ words. Jesus heals the servant of the man who is arresting him and tells Peter to put the sword away because they that take up the sword will die by the sword.

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled , that thus it must be?

If you read all of Chuck Baldwin’s words that I gave you…He is ready to become an outlaw if they try to outlaw his semi-auto. He is a Pastor. He was a Baptist Pastor in Florida. He was from an independent group…I am part of the Southern Baptist Group. Anyways Chuck does not believe churches should be 501.3c either. I have also heard him say that when he was a part of the “Moral Majority” group something to the effect that someone in the group conceded for a “seat at the table.” The table would be those of the political criminals probably the CFR. Anyways Chuck said something like…”Is that all you want.” Like that was a ridiculous concession. I heard all of that more than a year ago and I am not repeating it exactly as said, but if you are interested, I will find a link if I can. I just say all of that to say, that he is serious, and does not appear to be “sleeping with the enemy…or accepting a seat at the table of the enemy.”

Last of all I say this:

• Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes, you must help yourself, but in doing so, you cannot exclude God’s help if you expect to have his help. You cannot make a “deal with the devil” for victory and expect safety in battle.

If you look at Gideon’s battle you will see that God whittled the number down to 300 hundred men. A ridiculously low number, but a number that God would use to deliver the victory and give HIMSELF the glory. God will not share glory with another. He says this:

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

God will accomplish what He will accomplish for His Glory alone. If we help ourselves outside of His help, we will not have His help. His help requires faith.

So then, you must have faith to please God. How then will you get faith:
• Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The only way you will have faith is that you must be able to hear. The only way you will be able to hear is by hearing the word of God. That is why we have Old Testament and New Testament accounts and promises to rest upon. They are like monuments or commemorations of the faithfulness of God to those who will have hearts that are perfect toward Him because He is looking for those to whom He can show Himself strong upon their behalf.

Yes, the way is narrow:

• Matthew 7:14 KJV
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Which is why He uses the foolishness of the preaching of the cross:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Kinda sounds ridiculous doesn't it? The preaching of the cross sounds foolish. The whole concoction that some man 2000 years ago was God in Flesh and died on a cross so that you could have peace with God.

But, maybe you are one of the called and therefore will witness that power of God in Salvation in your own life. Kinda like you gotta be a Gideon with 300 men; or a David with a stone to kill a giant; or a Joe with a Jesus to please God.

• Titus 3:5 KJV
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

If you will be saved Joe, none of the glory will be shared with you or with me. It will all be God’s glory. You are powerless to save yourself and I am powerless to save you. Only God’s mercy will save you and you must be called to experience that mercy.

Again:
• Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
--------------------------------------------------
From this answer Josf suggests a new topic covering the resulting questions http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2905602
It may be a good idea to continue the discussion in a separate topic as the subject matter turns toward the verses you now offer.

Who exactly is This Lord when The Lord orders human beings to murder innocent children, and then one human being listens to that order and that one human being obeys that order without question?

1. Who is speaking those orders - exactly.
2. Who obeys those orders - exactly.

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Interesting Perspective!

Thank you for sharing it!

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Help?

God knows all, but creations are not created to know all?

That would be unwise?

I can't answer that question, only God can?

So God created one creation and that one creation was created to be too powerful, and that one creation is evil, and that one creation works against God?

Who can I get to set me straight?

All those questions above complicate the already complicated Topic?

I prefer to make things current and personal, while giving all the credit, and Glory, to God, as to me the creator of everything is the creator of everything, a POWER, and everything proves the fact that there is a POWER creating everything, no need for me to seek any more advice from anyone proving the fact to be a fact.

As to the English, or the Hebrew, words that describe, and communicate the precise look, sound, feel, taste, or perception of God (so named) I'm not going to claim to know which perception is more accurate compared competitively with which other perception.

God = Power behind all creation (fine with me in English)

God = YHVH (Hebrew?)

God = Charlton Heston with the white beard if anyone wants to know what God looks like?

So what is good?

To me it is easy. Life is good.

Why?

Who is asking?

Me.

How about a competitive answer?

I'll give it a try.

Good is something instead of nothing.

Hydrogen, for example, is good.

So a power, undeniably, creates hydrogen.

Then oxygen.

Rocks.

A place for all this new stuff.

God becomes lonely?

How about a chess player for God, out of boredom?

Just me offering a competitive viewpoint.

I don't know.

Joe, what about making this current and personal, or are you stretching your pretension of honesty beyond reason?

So I get put off in this God stuff when someone says that God orders the murder of babies.

The only way that I can make sense of it is if Evolution is a process created by the power that creates and God, the power of creation, removes a specific genetic creation from existence for good reason, to stop that specific genetic creation from existing any more, as in no more of that genetic creation will exist, so terminate that genetic information from creation, and do it now.

Why?

Because God says so.

No, I'm asking why.

Because God says so.

You have to be satisfied with the answer.

No, I am not built that way, my being is not satisfied with witnessing, never mind participating in, the murder of babies: because God says so.

Why?

Because God says so.

OK, so, here is God, here is imperfect creation, here is a commandment, here is the medium of exchange, stone tablets, here is this Moses guy, and he is the chosen one chosen to be the one person that has these items of communication from God to these, presumed to be intelligent, creations, as imperfect as they are, since God may have figured out the need to avoid creating exact copies of God, because God hates competition?

The closest God got to making a perfect copy of God was the Devil and how do we imperfect minions know the genuine article from the counterfeit version?

Yes, all, I don't need anyone else to inform me that my mind is all messed up. But seriously, and currently, and to the exact point at which another baby is murdered, right there, in time and place, it seems to me that I'm going to either help the process along, when the baby murderers grow weary with the work load, or I'm going to have absolutely nothing to do with it, one way or the other, or I will impede the process by some accurate measure.

I can't get too far from my own imaginary authority on this subject whereby I turn a corner in life and right there in front of me is a row of babies all lined up as far as the eye can see, and at the end of the line is a guy, or a gang of guys, maybe a few women too, and they are very busy murdering those babies and throwing them in a deep hole and the hole is filling up, and the pile is growing fast, and more helpers are needed to make room for more baby corpses, and someone hands me an official order from God, as soon as I turn the corner and find this mess in progress, and the order from God says, Attention Joe.

I read my orders and then what?

Joe

Hi Josf,

Just so I am on the same page with you, could you please let me know if you found my comment to you which is now burried in this post? It is located here: http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2908823 . I want to make sure before I delve into the topics above that you are aware of and have read and listened to the sources in my comment as linked. Thanks!

I read it.

My response is to divide the work load down to a specific personal example of baby killing in progress and then from that specific, personal, current, right now, actual, measurable, case, pick one, or illustrate one, as I have done, figuratively as I have done, or literally which I will do now, and from that specific, personal, real time, actual, case, explain it in terms of God says so.

Drone hits target. Target is on earth. Target makes mince meat out of baby A, B, C, and D.

Please.

Joe

On the Subject of Killing Babies

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

The Lord hates shedding innocent blood.

God has perfect knowledge whereby He sees all things including actual and possible, past, present, and future past all at once.
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(ii).htm#OMNISCIENT

We have no way of knowing what “kind” of “blood” that was. Only God does. The command to slaughter everyone and everything in that specific city was not the shedding of innocent blood. God gave very specific plans to Joshua that they were to walk around the outside perimeter of the city one time each day for six days and on the seventh day they were to walk around 7 times and blow horns and the walls of the city fell down. It is a miracle and God provided the access for destruction of everything in that city.

Romans 8:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth ;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written , Jacob have I loved , but Esau have I hated . 14 What shall we say then ? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

This is reminding me of the time I said “you are not God,” and those words were taken literally as if I was accusing you of thinking or saying you thought you were God. I went back to look at the post. I am dying laughing once again!
http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2602248 :
“I don't know what inspired you to school me on the fact that I am not God, was it something you read?”

Because I am inclined to say my original words from that abyss: "God is I am; you (and I) are not."

And I am dying laughing. But really seriously, my point is that we do not have the mind of God. We do not understand the purpose of God. But if we will try to understand Romans 8 above that God is the potter, we are the vessels. That passage says that before the twin boys were born, that God loved Jacob and hated Esau because Jacob had been chosen or elected for a specific purpose.

I humanely do not understand that. It bothers me, it does not seem fair. I do not understand why God would allow a place like Jericho to exist to begin with. Countless children were laid on sizzling platters and burned and tortured and offered to Molech. Why? Why? Why?

Why did God destroy every living creature at the flood except those on the ark? The truth of the matter is that it amazing that any of us get any mercy. That is what the truth is. We are sinful and unholy. I have done things I WILL NOT REPEAT TO ANYONE. Me, the pastor’s wife. I deserve everlasting destruction. It is amazing that I have received mercy from God. I cannot explain it. But the truth of the matter is that we have no concept of a Holy God and the peril that our lives hang in, and until we understand we are utterly dependent on that mercy we will never experience it.

Why are children and women and family destroyed, suffering, starving to death in the Middle East. Because man is wicked. And man will continue to be more and more wicked as time progresses.

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning , and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

In other words, you think drones and killing and suffering is bad now, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

• 2 Timothy 3:13 KJV
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving , and being deceived

But The Lord will have the last word.

James 5: 1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth eaten. 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. 4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. 5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Joe, we don’t know what diseases or wickedness lay within the walls of that city, Jericho. The only thing we know is that God miraculously made the walls fall down so that Joshua could carry out the command to destroy everyone and everything.

Why do you think the Jews were no longer residing in that land that was given to them by God? Because He sent them into exile because they did not follow equity. They were destroyed off of the Land. Their decendants began to worship the same god, Molech, and sacrificed their own children upon firey alters. Joshua warned them. Here are Joshua’s dying words:

Joshua 23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. 15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. 16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Perhaps their “constitution” was only for a moral and religious people as well…

...

Off the focus of attention offered.

It is OK by me if you do not want to make this subject current and personal so as to avoid wandering every which way all at once.

History has many versions and as you say, and as I agree, I'm not qualified to know the absolute facts myself, including me not knowing if The Bible is accurate, or less than accurate, in any way, at all, concerning history.

I can offer a viewpoint that intends to make things current, personal, in the here and now, so as to then either help one way or the other, or have my help ignored, rejected, or rendered obsolete in due time.

If, as you say, these baby murders must be, according to God, and we mere mortals have no clue as to the actual reasoning, then so be it. If, on the other hand, babies near me are being murdered by those working for God, just following orders, then my actions may not actually help them do God's good work.

Joe

Current and Personal is Fine

"If, on the other hand, babies near me are being murdered by those working for God, just following orders, then my actions may not actually help them do God's good work."

I think that you can be safe in saying that. I also will not accept any so called "spiritual" leading to murder any babies nor help in the effort to do so.

That was then, this is now.

I will not however, question God or his command as documented in the historical and supernatural record called the Holy Bible. I do not understand everything. I question lots of things, but not God's Word. We have a written record of what was then. What is now is that we are commanded to love one another. If we could but acheive that one thing, there would be no drones. But just like omniscience is impossible as a mortal, so is perfect love; even among those that Name the Name of Christ whether it be falsely or in truth.

The most important thing for you to know is that God loves you, Joe, and that His Son, God Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ, has provided a way for you to stand before Him in righteousness, which is impossible humanly.

...

...

Denise B's picture

I know you

haven't had a chance to answer my other question yet, but I also wanted to add one other thought to this topic. Have you seen Mel Gibson's Apocalypto? If not, it is a very accurate representation of the Mayan culture and I highly recommend it. Many of the civilizations that God destroyed in the OT were similar in comparison to these people, and most people by today's standards, would be shocked by the brutality and barbaric nature of these cultures. They routinely sacrificed their own children to their gods and would rip beating hearts out of their still alive victims. These are the types of civilizations that God had destroyed. Also, no where in the Bible does it state that infants are sent to Hell. If in destroying these civilizations and their infants, the infants souls returned back to Him, rather than be destined to live in a barbaric culture where they would ultimately have been either sacrificed or destined to be damned as adults, has He ultimately helped these infants, or hurt them?

Denise B's picture

Hi Joe,

correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems one of your biggest sticking points with accepting God as a righteous being is the fact that in certain portions of the Old Testatment, God orders that entire populations be destroyed, including infants, and in your mind you cannot conceive of a God that could order the destruction of infants and still be considered "good" or righteous, from your perspective.

If you don't mind, I would like to offer a perspective on that thought, if I in fact, I understand it correctly...

and it is all about perspective...i.e. Hitler was an infant at one point...would you consider destroying Hitler as an infant, knowing full well who and what he would become, to be an unrighteous act?

Both resonses responding to now.

You get an opposite (from my own) viewpoint out of Apocalypto. We, as in you and I, or anyone and I, or me and my own conscience, we, we don't have to get away from the point made earlier.

I just set about getting some chores done and I went mad, for awhile, a raving lunatic, had I had a recording of my battles with my own sense of right and wrong, me speaking out loud, all alone, it could be entertaining, if not a specific response to your response.

I am going to reconstruct my recent theater with words and not a live video of the event just played out in my own home.

Characters present in the play or theater:

1. Joe
2. Baby processor
3. A line of babies as far as the eye can see on a conveyor belt, some with diapers on, some not.

Joe begins to offer Joe's perspective on the topic.

Scene 1.

Joe: "Ok, first, before turning the corner and finding what lies ahead, from my current place in the dark, I can confirm the abject stupidity of Joe, a real numbskull, human trash actually, not worth a penny, not worth any gold, not worth the air consumed by the nitwit, so can we get this clear, first, that Joe is not intended to be connected in any way to the information offered. Joe does not exist, and if Joe does exist we can all agree that Joe aught not exist, Joe aught to go back to whatever place Joe came from - please - and the sooner the better."

Joe turns the corner, and from the darkness, Joe enters the light, and illuminated before Joe, and all of God's creation, figuratively if not literally (a sum total of what actually does happen), the other guy in the theater is busy, and what the other guys is doing is schooling Joe, so the theater is also a school. Joe is now witnessing the process.

Joe begins to offer Joe's perspective.

"To be clear, again, Joe admits that Joe is a piece of human trash, not a factor, at all, so forget about Joe, and if possible just look at the information in view. Got that?"

Silence in the Theater/School/Area of view.

Joe taps the worker on the shoulder.

Conveyor belt stops, worker stops working, worker turns to Joe with sweat pouring, almost passing out from exhaustion, grabs a drink of water and stares at Joe.

"Not that it is bad, mind you, this thing you are doing here, I'm not one to question another's business, but can I ask you a question?"

The worker finishes a drink and starts eating a baby, the worker is famished.

Worker:
"No. I am not ordered to answer questions, I have orders to do my work, and as you can see there is work to be done, as soon as my break is over, which I'm allowed to do, it says so right here, I'll get back to work. No questions."

Joe:
"Ok, understood, but suppose I'm not asking a question, instead I'm asking if you need any help, no, no, strike that, I'm not asking I'm offering."

Worker:
"Help, hmmmm, well I don't know. I'll have to ask, but I'm told to do as told without question."

Joe:
"OK, so, again, no questions, just an offering of help, just an idea, and not my idea, forget about me, does the idea work? You know, you have so much work to do, and I'm not doing anything, actually I think I may have added to your work load, so all the more reason for me to offer help, so many babies, not enough time, and all that."

Worker finishes a baby, takes another drink of water, and looks at his watch.

"I don't know man, I have these orders, and they are not to be questioned, but it sound good to me, I'm tired, and the rate of work is increasing for some reason, so yea, yea, dive in, I guess, at least until I'm told differently."

Not that it is bad or anything, but in such a case, me being me, I'd probably help my own way, not the way the worker is ordered to work exactly, and the concept of right and wrong can be left up to the authorities, not me, I'll just wander over to the place where the babies are loaded onto the conveyor and see what is happening on that end.

Meanwhile the worker is not too happy with my form of help, as I wander off, I suppose.

I don't get the orders, so my help is not appreciated?

If you see one message when you watch a movie, or read a book, and I see the opposite message, then either your view is accurate, or my view is accurate, relatively speaking, since there is no way that we can both be exactly inaccurate.

More specific to your viewpoint but not removing my viewpoint from view, after having offered some of it, graphically, I can access your words with quotes:

"God orders that entire populations be destroyed, including infants, and in your mind you cannot conceive of a God that could order the destruction of infants and still be considered "good" or righteous, from your perspective."

I was specific. In the context of the Theory of Evolution the order by the all powerful to start the conveyor belt mentioned above makes sense. If that is not clearly understood, at this point, I can elaborate on that point so long as you do not ignore that point. If you ignore that point then there is no point in you asking me for my viewpoint; since you ignore it.

"Hitler was an infant at one point...would you consider destroying Hitler as an infant, knowing full well who and what he would become, to be an unrighteous act?"

No. I see no point in murdering babies. I think babies need to be nurtured and raised to fulfill their destiny as a competitive example of our number within the SET of people we label as Human Beings.

Have you seen the movie Schindler's List? What is your opinion as to the reason why one little girl is wearing a red dress in an otherwise black and white movie?

I can offer my viewpoint if you care to know my viewpoint on that point.

"Have you seen Mel Gibson's Apocalypto? If not, it is a very accurate representation of the Mayan culture and I highly recommend it. Many of the civilizations that God destroyed in the OT were similar in comparison to these people, and most people by today's standards, would be shocked by the brutality and barbaric nature of these cultures."

I like this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gfjoAyqfLs

My point:
Perspective A (Movie by Mel Gibson)
Perspective B (Song by Neil Young)
Perspective C (Your interpretation of the movie)
Perspective D (My interpretation of the movie)
Perspective E (Your interpretation of the song)
Perspective F (My interpretation of the song)
Perspective G (Actual accurate reality as it is)
Perspective H (failure to know better)

"These are the types of civilizations that God had destroyed."

They who murdered babies murdered babies, claiming to be "just following orders", which sounds familiar to me, a constant, not a variable. The variable is the names of the baby murderers.

I'm not saying that God doesn't order the baby murders, but I did offer a possible logical reason why an all powerful God might order babies murdered, and that has to do with The Theory of Evolution as if God says OOOOPPPS, that specific genetic instruction (orders) are messed up, so, ahhhhhh, wooopsie, where's my eraser, and back to the drawing board.

"Also, no where in the Bible does it state that infants are sent to Hell."

I don't know what that has to do with me, specifically, but my response to that is to say that parents having to witness their babies (or any babies for sensitive people/parents) tortured and murdered, or murdered without the pain, are living in hell on earth, who needs enemies with friends like that?

" If in destroying these civilizations and their infants, the infants souls returned back to Him, rather than be destined to live in a barbaric culture where they would ultimately have been either sacrificed or destined to be damned as adults, has He ultimately helped these infants, or hurt them?"

Oppps, back to the drawing board?

So, I get it, you are merely one of God's children, imperfect, so you don't have the answers.

I ask, or offer, help, described earlier, and as described earlier, I can be totally left out of the entire business, for lack of any possible help from me, admitted by me, but the point is to look at possible ways to help if help is possible.

Can someone help, if not me?

Joe

Denise B's picture

I would like to

take the time to fully respond to your comments, but may not have time to do so this evening...in the meantime, I did see Schindler’s List a long time ago, but do not remember the girl in the red dress and would like to hear your comments on it. I also listened to Neil Young’s Cortez the killer, and understand what you are getting at, and would just like to ask if you have read the Bible? While I would take issue with Mr. Young’s innocent portrayal of the Mayan culture, I also would not say that Cortez would accurately be portrayed as a “good” guy, but was perhaps used as a vessel for administering God’s justice....i.e. many times in the Bible God will set one evil force against another to fulfill His will. The Babylonians were an evil culture that were given power over Israel as a means of punishment for Israel’s repeated defiance of God (after being warned over and over again), but it was always made clear that they were evil in God’s eyes and ultimately also heaped God’s Judgement upon themselves as well.

“So, I get it, you are merely one of God's children, imperfect, so you don't have the answers.”....
It is a complex discussion and you are right, I do not have all of the answers and I would be lying if I claimed that I did, but I also think that many of these questions are answered in God’s Word, which is why I asked if you had read it. I am also not assuming that you have not read it, which is why I asked.

I will wait to hear your responses, and if ok, would like to continue our discussion tomorrow.

God helps those who realize

God helps those who realize they can NOT help themselves and truly turn to him for help. It may just not be the way the person wants. But Gods way. And in the end ALL the injustice in the world will be taken care of God says vengeance is mine.

"and the truth shall make you free"
John 8:32

Narrowing the field precisely?

God knows all but creations are not created to know all?

That would be unwise?

I can't answer that question, only God can?

So God created one creation and that one creation was created to be too powerful, and that one creation is evil, and that one creation works against God?

Who can I get to set me straight?

All those questions above complicate the already complicated Topic?

I prefer to make things current and personal, while giving all the credit, and Glory, to God, as to me the creator of everything is the creator of everything, a POWER, and everything proves the fact that there is a POWER creating everything, no need for me to seek any more advice from anyone proving the fact to be a fact.

As to the English, or the Hebrew, words that describe, and communicate the precise look, sound, feel, taste, or perception of God (so named) I'm not going to claim to know which perception is more accurate compared competitively with which other perception.

God = Power behind all creation (fine with me in English)

God = YHVH (Hebrew?)

God = Charlton Heston with the white beard if anyone wants to know what God looks like?

So what is good?

To me it is easy. Life is good.

Why?

Who is asking?

Me.

How about a competitive answer?

I'll give it a try.

Good is something instead of nothing.

Hydrogen, for example, is good.

So a power, undeniably, creates hydrogen.

Then oxygen.

Rocks.

A place for all this new stuff.

God becomes lonely?

How about a chess player for God, out of boredom?

Just me offering a competitive viewpoint.

I don't know.

Joe, what about making this current and personal, or are you stretching your pretension of honesty beyond reason?

So I get put off in this God stuff when someone says that God orders the murder of babies.

The only way that I can make sense of it is if Evolution is a process created by the power that creates and God, the power of creation, removes a specific genetic creation from existence for good reason, to stop that specific genetic creation from existing any more, as in no more of that genetic creation will exist, so terminate that genetic information from creation, and do it now.

Why?

Because God says so.

No, I'm asking why.

Because God says so.

You have to be satisfied with the answer.

No, I am not built that way, my being is not satisfied with witnessing, never mind participating in, the murder of babies: because God says so.

Why?

Because God says so.

OK, so, here is God, here is imperfect creation, here is a commandment, here is the medium of exchange, stone tablets, here is this Moses guy, and he is the chosen one chosen to be the one person that has these items of communication from God to these, presumed to be intelligent, creations, as imperfect as they are, since God may have figured out the need to avoid creating exact copies of God, because God hates competition?

The closest God got to making a perfect copy of God was the Devil and how do we imperfect minions know the genuine article from the counterfeit version?

Yes, all, I don't need anyone else to inform me that my mind is all messed up. But seriously, and currently, and to the exact point at which another baby is murdered, right there, in time and place, it seems to me that I'm going to either help the process along, when the baby murders grow weary with the work load, or I'm going to have absolutely nothing to do with it, one way or the other, or I will impede the process by some accurate measure.

I can't get too far from my own imaginary authority on this subject whereby I turn a corner in life and right there in front of me is a row of babies all lined up as far as the eye can see, and at the end of the line is a guy, or a gang of guys, maybe a few women too, and they are very busy murdering those babies and throwing them in a deep hole and the hole is filling up, and the pile is growing fast, and more helpers are needed to make room for more baby corpses, and someone hands me an official order from God, as soon as I turn the corner and find this mess in progress, and the order from God says, Attention Joe.

I read my orders and then what?

Joe

A Very Narrow Field

Isaiah 45:21 KJV
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

There is not like God, none that can understand God and there is not other God. He is a good and loving God. However is is a Just Judge as well.

It is a matter of faith

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Is there any more to talk about? Do you have any questions?

...

No way to tell.

I see no way to tell how to do this believing or understanding or knowing the thoughts and actions required to be good enough to be saved or whatever happens that is better than worse.

Ambiguity, to me, does not cut it.

So I get down to a focus of obvious contention and all I get is that you know, and I don't.

You know this God.

I don't.

You know that it was God who gave the order to murder babies.

I don't.

I'm not on that page, and I have no clue as to how to get on that page.

Believe.

What does that mean - exactly?

Joe

Pisteuo

Believe.

What does that mean - exactly?"

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pisteuo.html

The word believe is translated from the Greek word pisteuo. academic information can be found on the link above

But if I were to try to put into my own words and actions, it was a simple decision that I decided to make. It was the decision, because of belief, that caused me to ask Jesus, because of what he did for me on the cross, to come into my life and to be my Lord. When I say Lord, I mean to allow him to have control. I can see how all of that sounds ambiguous, but basically I think it boils down to a decision based upon facts.

Jesus died for my sins, he was buried and he rose again on the 3rd day.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith , Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I simply asked Jesus to forgive me for my sin and to come and live inside of me. They were not magic words. I don’t even know the exact words because they came from a heart of belief.

And there is that believe (belief) word again.

1828 Definition http://www.1828-dictionary.com/d/search/word,believe

"BELIE'VE, v.t. To credit upon the authority or testimony of another; to be persuaded of the truth of something upon the declaration of another, or upon evidence furnished by reasons, arguments, and deductions of the mind, or by other circumstances, than personal knowledge. When we believe upon the authority of another, we always put confidence in his veracity.

When we believe upon the authority of reasoning, arguments, or a concurrence of facts and circumstances, we rest our conclusions upon their strength or probability, their agreement with our own experience, &c.

2. To expect or hope with confidence; to trust.
I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Ps.27.

BELIE'VE, v.i. To have a firm persuasion of any thing. In some cases, to have full persuasion, approaching to certainty; in others, more doubt is implied. It is often followed by in or on, especially in the scriptures. To believe in, is to hold as the object of faith. "Ye believe in God, believe also in me." John 14. To believe on, is to trust, to place full confidence in, to rest upon with faith. "To them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1. Johnson. But there is no ground for much distinction.

In theology, to believe sometimes expresses a mere assent of the understanding to the truths of the gospel; as in the case of Simon. Act.8. In others, the word implies, with this assent of the mind, a yielding of the will and affections, accompanied with a humble reliance on Christ for salvation. John 1.12. 3.15.

In popular use and familiar discourse, to believe often expresses an opinion in a vague manner, without a very exact estimate of evidence, noting a mere preponderance of opinion, and is nearly equivalent to think or suppose."

...

Jealousy

I am working to avoid being jealous of people who have this power to know something that I can seem to know.

I am working on a Power Viewpoint because it works for me.

I can see those English Definitions of words and they appear to be false words to me.

I can be a Soul.

That is part of my understanding of life as it exists on Earth.

A Soul is a form of power, and it exists, and where it exists is not within my power to know, and I've tried to find it, to measure it, to know it, but it is not within my power to know it, all I can do, it seems, to me, so far, is to be it.

I can be a soul.

Here I am.

Then, to me, I have this life going on too.

1.
Soul

2.
A living form

This can become a very long effort on my part to offer to you my viewpoint in competition with yours, but I am going to cut this short at this point.

I am jealous, which is a sin, if I understand sin, but none-the-less, I am jealous of your POWER to know this thing you call belief. I don't accept the English definitions of the word belief, because to me, it does not compute.

To me the English definitions of the word belief are false, and that may be another avenue of discussion.

I just want to report to you of this POWER that is taking over me, this jealousy thing, whatever that is, it is real to me.

Joe

Don't be jealous

just do this:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ask God to help you.

Mark 9:24 KJV
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Don't be me?

Jealously is not a word in English and it isn't a choice I have, to me: it is a power.

I can ask for help.

Sometimes I get help.

Other times I have to deal with it.

Joe

Maybe what I was trying to say was

to try to redirect jealousy into an action.

"I am working to avoid being jealous of people who have this power to know something that I can seem to know."

The action that I was suggesting is to tell God about it.

God, I am jealous of those who have the power to believe. Will you please help me believe? I want to believe. Please help me.

I don't know if I am being helpful or not, it is my goal though. Never to be you, or to make you into me.

As a Christian, I have power over jealousy. It is a choice and that same power that raised Jesus from the dead is at work in me to give me the ability to have victory.

Romans 8:11 KJV
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

In context:
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Josf, do you want Jesus to live inside of you?

...

I don't know.

If I knew exactly why I was Jealous then I could act in a way that is more productive and less unproductive.

I don't know.

"The action that I was suggesting is to tell God about it."

My life is a constant conversation with anyone who will listen, and few human beings I know listen, so that leaves me with God, or my Dad, or now my Mom, or my friend Hank, anyone, really, hey, what do you think, Dad, does this sound right?

So far the answers I get are ambiguous.

If I ask God 12 times in a row, no answer, I'll try Dad for awhile.

No Dad, I'll try Mom.

"As a Christian, I have power over jealousy. It is a choice and that same power that raised Jesus from the dead is at work in me to give me the ability to have victory."

I don't know, for sure, what this Jealously thing is, but my actions are geared toward finding out what it is, and so I ask.

The answers are ambiguous so far.

"Josf, do you want Jesus to live inside of you?"

To tell me to murder babies? Of course you will say no, but that is the point of making these lines in the sand, as far as I am concerned. No, the answer is categorically no, I do not want Jesus anywhere near me if the order to be obeyed without question is to murder babies. No, no, and double no.

Triple no.

If you replace Jesus and add accurate percpetion, or truth, or love (whatever that means), then OK, sure, the answer is yes.

Yes I want accurate perception, truth, and life (love of life) to live inside me.

Thanks.

If the deal is either/or, truth or murder babies without question, then that is a deal breaker - again.

I can go on and on with the explanations of what exactly constitutes Jealously, since so much of my thinking can fall into that category, things not said, not contained in these sound bites that look like GIANT WAllS OF TEXT to other people - perhaps.

I am Jealous of anyone who knows something that I cannot (was a typo earlier) know myself.

One sentence does not convey as much of the reality that exists in my soul, connected to this living being, connected through this brain, these eyes, ears, pain, happiness, etc.

Joe

Still Waiting

for the clothes to dry. I have to take Scott's basketball uniform north before I can head south...

Josf, I have done some hunting. I think, if you really, really want to know you should go here:

http://www.readbiblealive.com/GodsLove/GodsLoveIntro.html

It is an open source book. I have never read it, but I have scanned some of it just now. I found it by going here: http://sowhatgod.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/why-did-god-order-...

If you want me to, I will read along with you.

...

Discussion

1. A viewpoint

2. Another viewpoint

One is not the other one. What are the differences?

What are the similarities?

1.
God ends the lives of babies to accomplish a goal (not murder)

2.
The Power of creation does not end the lives of babies to accomplish a goal, the opposite is what the Power of creation does (not murder)

If your belief in what has happened in history is expressible with English words, then you can expresses what has happened in history with English words.

I'm not ready to believe that God (the power of creation, or the source of all truth, or just truth) is well represented in those English words you keep quoting. I think that there has been some adjusting done as the message is handled by the handlers.

I can be wrong. I've been wrong, and that is fine by me.

Meanwhile there is this matter of power flowing from those who create that power to those who then use that power to gain all the power for their own exclusive abuse, and currently that power is denominated in Federal Reserve Notes.

This is an interesting topic, and a good way to compare notes, and a good way to improve the capacity (power) to communicate accurately, and a good way to increase the capacity (power) to know better compared to knowing worse as to which things are to be done one way or the other.

If there are words in English worth reading, to me, your own words are better, since you are the source of those words, and I don't have to deal with any other handlers of words in the effort to find out your unique viewpoint.

Knowing your unique viewpoint is worth the effort so far, but I have a lot of trouble having to deal with other viewpoints as other viewpoints don't respond to my unique viewpoint at all.

Joe

The only viewpoint I have to offer is from the Word of God.

I believe the Bible to be the Very Word of God. I do not understand everything. But it is right, I am wrong, if there is a difference in viewpoint. That being said. I have nothing additional to offer except that viewpoint contained in the Word of God. I can try to give meaning to those words that I quote, but the problem is:

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

you cannot know. You will not know

John 6:44a KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

unless the Father draws you. That is where things stand. Not in your hands, not in my hands, but in the very Hands of the Father.

As long as you attribute more to your rationale and your human thoughts, you will not receive the Word. That is the line in the sand. That being the case, I personally would recommend that you cry out to God for mercy and for eyes to see and for ears to hear.

I think the work that is left for me as far as help for you is book work. I rejected the goal I had considered of one chapter a day because it would take too long. It seems if I had done that I would be done. I will begin that goal today so that at least I am accomplishing something along those lines instead of waiting to give all of my self to the project.

Balance is what I think I heard I needed one time! :)

Take care Joe.

...

Will do

Thanks

Joe

Above

My reply above your reply is what I had begun to wonder about being one of those Parthian Arrows. I am glad it was not taken that way.

Poof

The difference between belief and knowledge is 3 more letters added to the word.

I don't think that either one of us claims absolute authority, so we are on that same page. Why would either one of us want to dominate the other point of view by way of deceit, threat of violence, or violence?

I really think (believe or know) that the mess human beings are in is caused by this power the few have over the many whereby the many are led to believe in a very powerfully destructive lie that incorporates everyone into the routine of crime.

We are all in this together, they say, and it is a lie.

Phrases abound: "It takes a village."

To do what?

Joe

knowing

"I don't think that either one of us claims absolute authority, so we are on that same page. Why would either one of us want to dominate the other point of view by way of deceit, threat of violence, or violence?"

I claim the Word of God, the Bible, is Holy and Supernaturally God-Inspired. I claim it is the very Word of God and has absolute authority even when I do not understand everything. That is the knowledge I have. I know.

How do I know? It is supernatural. It is accurate. Prophecies. pre-recored events have been fulfilled. There are more prophecies that will come to pass.

"I really think (believe or know) that the mess human beings are in is caused by this power the few have over the many whereby the many are led to believe in a very powerfully destructive lie that incorporates everyone into the routine of crime."

The Bible teaches that man loves darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Otherwise if man were good, then those few that maintain power would do good for mankind.

They say it takes a village to raise a child because those that seek power must remove the structure of the family unit that was ordained by God. When the authority is removed from the family, who is now the authority? The village? i.e. the state. And they are raising the children. When I was little kindergarden was 1/2 a day and it was a new thing. Now we send 4 year olds to all day government school. To be taught what? That their allegience is to the village instead of to God and His Word by Whom all blessings flow. Who does God tell children to obey? Their parents. Whose authority is being undermined by the village that IS raising the children?

But I suppose I digress. Because this topic is about a God that orders the death of children.

The Harlot and her family that was saved from Jericho. These are her words:

Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faintbecause of you. 10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. 11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath. 12 Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shewkindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token: 13 And that ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death. 14 And the men answered her, Our life for yours, if ye utter not this our business. And it shall be, when the LORD hath given us the land, that we will dealkindly and truly with thee."

They are words of faith and trust in the God of Israel. She KNEW that God had given their land to the Israelites. I know that God did that too.

Psalm 24:1 The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

It all belongs to God; God can do, and God will do as God pleases.

When Joshua defeated Jericho, it was not a long drawn out torturous event. It was a swift event. It was over and done as fast as it started. There was not sorting of life by age or sex or kind. Both human and animal of all sexes and ages were destroyed and God commanded it to be done exactly so.

These things are for an example to us. Rahab let a scarlet cord out of her window to mark her place so that none of the people inside her dwelling were destroyed. That scarlet cord represents Christ. There is a scarlet cord that runs throught the Bible. It is pointing to the redemption of man by the Son of God.

This is what I know.

...

...

I don't know.

"But I suppose I digress. Because this topic is about a God that orders the death of children."

That pinpoints this:

"I claim the Word of God, the Bible, is Holy and Supernaturally God-Inspired. I claim it is the very Word of God and has absolute authority even when I do not understand everything. That is the knowledge I have. I know."

The difference between your viewpoint and my viewpoint is such that I can believe or know (because evidence abounds that a power of creation exists) that the creator (power in my view) is absolutely creating things. Where I have a problem is the medium of exchange.

God is over here. Mankind in history is here. I am here.

I can trust/believe/know/understand/realize/measure/account for/authorize/acknowledge/rationalize/perceive God.

God is over here.

Check.

I am here. I have that, everywhere I go, I am here.

Check.

In between God and this being knowable as me are these other human beings, writers, people, humans, with names, having deeds recorded, claims, histories, etc.

God over here.

Check.

Me.

Check.

In between God and I are:

"The Bible teaches that man loves darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Otherwise if man were good, then those few that maintain power would do good for mankind."

1.
God over here.

2.
Mankind
"The Bible teaches that man loves darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Otherwise if man were good, then those few that maintain power would do good for mankind."

3.
Me over here.

I get 1 and 3 well enough.

I think you have heard from me ample evidence (despite me being among those known as Mankind) proving that I get 1 and 3.

I do not get the contradiction that says mankind is bad so trust mankind to connect God to me.

A.
Mankind is bad.
Here:
"The Bible teaches that man loves darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Otherwise if man were good, then those few that maintain power would do good for mankind."

B.
Trust Mankind to write down all the things God wants me to believe.

A and B do not compute.

A.
"I claim the Word of God, the Bible, is Holy and Supernaturally God-Inspired. I claim it is the very Word of God and has absolute authority even when I do not understand everything. That is the knowledge I have. I know."

So the Bible is there, I can read it, and you can read it, and 1 million other human beings can read it. Some read it and recognize a tool that can be used to enslave powerless people, and history shows how that was probably true, and current reality shows how that is probably true, as End Timers are doing all they can to get World War III off on schedule.

You can read the Bible.

I can read the Bible.

You come up with this:

"I claim the Word of God, the Bible, is Holy and Supernaturally God-Inspired. I claim it is the very Word of God and has absolute authority even when I do not understand everything. That is the knowledge I have. I know."

I see specific things that are treasures, competitive viewpoints that are exemplary examples of all that is good about humankind; while I also see things that appear to me to be contradictions and therefore evidence supporting the accurately measurable existence of lies.

If mankind is bad then I should not trust mankind to deliver to me the word of God.

If you are saying that God takes over people as if people are robots, and God is remote controlling people, and these remotely controlled drones, human flesh, God drones, are then made to deliver the messages God wants the other people to hear, then that could explain the contradiction, if I am going to understand, in some way, by some reason, how I am supposed to resolve this apparent contradiction.

A.
"The Bible teaches that man loves darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Otherwise if man were good, then those few that maintain power would do good for mankind."

B.
"I claim the Word of God, the Bible, is Holy and Supernaturally God-Inspired. I claim it is the very Word of God and has absolute authority even when I do not understand everything. That is the knowledge I have. I know."

let there please be no mistake here in what I am conveying to you with words, intending to convey a perspective intact, without error, as I am not shooting all those messengers who are the messengers recorded in the Bible.

I did not say this:

"The Bible teaches that man loves darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Otherwise if man were good, then those few that maintain power would do good for mankind."

Why trust person A - ever?

Why distrust person B - ever?

Who says that "man loves darkness"?

I don't trust someone who says "man loves darkness".

I know plenty of people, human beings, who love life.

Someone claiming that all men are bad, is a familiar story line, a routine, it is the same things said by criminals, as they are setting about to deflect defensive power aimed at their selves for their crimes that they have perpetrated, are perpetrating, or will perpetrate.

Criminals lie, threaten, and injure innocent people.

How?

They disarm their victims.

It is a routine. It is a recognizable routine. It follows an obvious, measurable, and accurately measurable, pattern.

When I recognize the pattern, I think it is a good idea for me, someone who claims, in my own way, each day, that I do not "love darkness", and I choose to make the best of what God gave me, as well as anyone else can in my shoes, me, as I see these patterns, time and again, to say, hey, that ought to be questioned.

That pattern aught to be questioned according to my own sense of not being one of the people who "love darkness" specifically.

Specifically not loving the darkness of murdering babies - for example.

"But I suppose I digress. Because this topic is about a God that orders the death of children."

I don't know that you digress. The subject matter we are discussing is long over due and therefore, in my opinion, it is well covered up with lies.

Failure to keep moral perspective, accurate perspective, moral, and accurate, allows for what to happen?

How does a person who wants to live well, a person who wants to have their children live better, how does such a being, a living being, get to the point where a person exists under a condition of abject belief in falsehood without question?

I am not questioning faith in God.

Remember, please:

1. God is here.
2. Mankind is here.
3. I am here.

I get 1 and 3.

I am questioning the abject belief in falsehood without question as it manifests itself in the use of Fraudulent Money as if there were only one Money, and the payment of extortion fees denominated in that one money to the very people who now torture and mass murder and LIE with that power they steal in that criminal way, and no one questions that process, with few exceptions.

1. God is here.
2. Mankind is here (hypnotized into Legal Crime)
3. I am here.

I get 1 and 3.

I get that you believe that there is a way that God manages to remove all the lies out of the Bible that you read, so be it, I get that you find that to be believable. I don't.

My main point is that God would be confident in his absolute power when we human beings stop believing in abject falsehood without question, and we stop loving darkness, and we stop using the fraud money, and we stop paying the extortion fee, and we stop sending our children off to torture, mass murder, torture us, murder us, be tortured, and be murdered, or commit suicide, for lower gas prices: loving darkness.

God may actually be saying, this is how things will be, you, you, and you, will learn not to love darkness, but that one, that one, and that one, they won't learn better, so watch out, and do what you can to disconnect from the tangled web because all those people who love darkness are going to have at each others throats, because that is the price they pay for wanting to have at each others throats.

For you, or anyone, any man, any woman, any sinner, any error prone person ever having stood on the earth, reaching maturity, saying "all men are bad" to me, is to me, a recognizable pattern shared by all the criminals.

So it is my turn to see "RED", but I'm not jumping to conclusions.

I am asking.

Do you see the contradiction?

Can you explain the contradiction?

I've explained a possible way that God could take over control of the error prone people, those lovers of darkness, and instead of lying, which those lovers of darkness do so often, God remote controls those error prone lovers of darkness, human drones, and makes those error prone lovers of darkness tell the truth in this case, this case of writing the Bible, etc.

Contradiction:

Men are bad - but trust men to deliver the word of God.

If you don't see the contradiction then why not?

If you see the contradiction, as I see it, then explain how it is not a contradiction - please.

Does my human drone theory work well enough?

You can say, yes, that is how it works according to the Bible.

My response there is to ask for any references to how well the Bible warns human beings (assuming that it is worth the effort to warn evil people about anything) about The Deceiver, and please help me by reporting Biblical references concerning exactly how powerful The Deceiver can be when The Deceiver works to reach the goal of deceiving the people targeted with deception.

Loving darkness as we all are, presumably, wouldn't our fault then be a loving of charity too: giving, helping, too much, a greedy desire for better life for ourselves, and our children, and then the deceiver dangles a counterfeit version of that good life, that Liberty, in front of us, false advertizements, false fronts, lies, deceptions, and hidden behind are the threats of violence, and the violence, and so the fault, this loving of darkness turns out to be merely innocence itself?

We trust the signs to be true, and that is the full measure of our "love of darkness"?

Sure, I'm wrong, I get that often. I know that, trust that, and that is why I keep asking questions.

"They are words of faith and trust in the God of Israel. She KNEW that God had given their land to the Israelites. I know that God did that too."

I think we circled this dragon and never found common ground, never measuring the same thing, as if you saw one thing, and I saw something entirely different.

What exactly is an "Israelite"?

1.
Genetic make up
2.
Common belief
3.
Common tradition
4.
Common accurate perception of the facts
5.
Any combination of factors determining an "Israelite" from a non "Israelite".

"This is what I know."

I am not confident in knowing much, and certainly less confident in knowing how to resolve the contradictions I perceive to be contradictions, offered to you, since my repeated attempts to ask God, or Jesus, or anyone for help is not specific enough to resolve those specific contradictions. Perhaps you can help resolve those contradictions that I see: expressed above.

God appears to tell me that I will be helped by God if I help other people, as far as I can tell, that is the memos I get, and furthermore, as far as I can tell, God says that I have to listen to other people if I will then be in a position to help other people, and that is how God will help me, in any case so far.

I think it is poor, or powerless, for me to believe that human beings love darkness. I don't love darkness, unless I'm deceiving myself, and that can be the case, but why does that possibility sound so horrible, and terrifying, and bad, and dark, and foreboding to me, if I love darkness so much?

Joe

Human Drones…• “If mankind

Human Drones…
• “If mankind is bad then I should not trust mankind to deliver to me the word of God.

If you are saying that God takes over people as if people are robots, and God is remote controlling people, and these remotely controlled drones, human flesh, God drones, are then made to deliver the messages God wants the other people to hear, then that could explain the contradiction, if I am going to understand, in some way, by some reason, how I am supposed to resolve this apparent contradiction.”

I can understand why you would say: if man is bad and man wrote the Bible why should I believe the Bible. Your example of a human drone is somewhat correct. Men were guided to write and to speak.

• 2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

There were men who loved and served God and God thru the Holy Spirit moved them to speak. The Bible was not given by man’s will. In contrast it was given by God’s will. It is inspired by God and is to be used for teaching, correcting and instructing.

• 2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Word of God is powerful. The word quick means alive. It has life. It is not dead. It does work.

• Hebrews 4:12 KJV
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Jesus speaks and tell the people to study the scriptures because the scriptures speak of his coming:

• John 5:39 KJV
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus uses the Old Testament teaching regarding Moses being called by the God of the Living. As he teaches he lets the people know that they do not understand are in error in their doctrine because they do not know the scriptures.

• Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err , because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?...And as touching the dead, that they rise : have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying , I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

The scriptures are written by men thru the moving of the Holy Spirit/inspiration of God. And Jesus confirms and gives credibility to them. Please let me know if I need to give further support and understanding as to why the Scriptures are the Word of God and why they can be trusted because there are also fulfilled prophesies and archeological finds. The scientific odds of Jesus fulfilling the prophecies concerning the Messiah are

“Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in
100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.
The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident." (Peter Stoner in Science Speaks; Moody Press, 1963) http://www.amazon.com/Science-Evaluation-Certain-Christian-E...
-----------------------------
On Darkness

• “Who says that "man loves darkness"?
I don't trust someone who says "man loves darkness".
I know plenty of people, human beings, who love life.”

Jesus is the Light, so it is not a matter of loving human life. It is a matter of loving Jesus, the Light of the World. Jesus said men would rather love darkness than to love him.

• John 8:12 KJV
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying , I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

The reason people would rather not love Jesus is because they love their own darkness/evil deed and do not want to give them up in order to come to the light.

• John 3:19 KJV
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Here Jesus explains that loving him is the same as loving God. He also says his words spoken here will be judge. Specifically that not accepting his word is rejecting him and those same words that are rejected will be the words that will be man’s judge.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said , He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hearmy words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken , the same shall judge him in the last day.
----------------------------------
The Deceiver:

“My response there is to ask for any references to how well the Bible warns human beings (assuming that it is worth the effort to warn evil people about anything) about The Deceiver, and please help me by reporting Biblical references concerning exactly how powerful The Deceiver can be when The Deceiver works to reach the goal of deceiving the people targeted with deception.”

We have already gone over how Satan deceived Eve. He is such a deceiver that he was able to get Eve to do the one thing that God commanded not be done.

• Genesis 3:13 KJV
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me , and I did eat .

Jesus points back to this time saying that Satan was a liar from the beginning:
• John 8:44 KJV
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

.He was a murderer too. God even warned Cain that the devil was lurking for him. Satan caused Cain to kill his brother Abel:

• Genesis 4:7 KJV
If thou doest well , shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well , sin lie that the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

He is an adversary. He is like a lion. A person must be sober and vigilant against him because he is on the prowl to destroy.

• 1 Peter 5:8 KJV
Be sober, be vigilant ; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about , seeking whom he may devour :

Here Jesus contrasts Satan with himself:

• John 10:10 KJV
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy : I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The devil is such a deceiver that most of the world walks in darkness today; meaning that most of the world does recognize Jesus, the Light of the World.
----------------------------------------
Who/What is Israel:

• “What exactly is an "Israelite"?
1.
Genetic make up
2.
Common belief
3.
Common tradition
4.
Common accurate perception of the facts
5.
Any combination of factors determining an "Israelite" from a non "Israelite".”

I think reading or listening to Genesis would be interesting for you. It gives this history of God’s interaction with Man from the beginning and sets up the Exodus from Egypt. I think it would give you the background you desire concerning what exactly is Israel. The first time Israel is used in the Bible is here:

• Genesis 32:28 KJV
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Jacob and Esau were twin sons of Isaac. Isaac was the promised son of Abraham. Jacob had a dream and wrestled with an angel and his name was changed to Israel. You may also remember that Jesus referred to the God of Israel in

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise : have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Here is the meaning of the Word Israel http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yisrael.html

Israel = "God prevails"

the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel

the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob

the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split

the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah

the name of the nation after the return from exile

Note that Rahab, the harlot from Jericho who helped the Israelite spies was taken into the camp of Israel and married and was one of Jesus’ ancestors. Also one of Jesus’ ancestors, Ruth, was from the nation of Moab. There may be other nationalities mixed into the line of Jesus that I am not aware of (Jeff is better with history/technical stuff). I say that to say that while Israelites are the descendants of Jacob, there are other nationalities that married in, so it is not necessarily just the pure bloodline of the descendants of Jacob who had 12 sons, and I would have to go back to see where those 12 wives came from. Seems like Joseph’s wife was an Egyptian. But basically Israel can be defined as the descendants of Jacob.

However, as a believer, I have been “grafted” in:

Romans 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

In context: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/romans/11.html

So I am a spiritual “Israelite” grafted in thru faith in Christ.
----------------------
Is this question referring to me?

“How does a person who wants to live well, a person who wants to have their children live better, how does such a being, a living being, get to the point where a person exists under a condition of abject belief in falsehood without question?”
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I realize this is a lengthy reply. Please, if you have questions, please raise them and I will do my best to answer. Some if not all of these subjects have complete books written about them by people who have given their lives to study. I am but a bear but

2 Timothy 1:12b KJV
...I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. {of judgement]

because I know the Light of the World and He lives within me. I am His, He is mine.

I did not proof, I hope it is readable!

....