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Whom Does God Help?

An off topic discussion has been moved from http://www.dailypaul.com/259985/liberty-day-challenge-july-4... to this new On Topic Post.

Josf’s words from http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2897974

“God helps those who help themselves, it seems to me, and those who obey falsehood without question, it seems to me, are godless creatures who will get what they buy with their stolen loot.”

And specifically the cliché “God helps those who help themselves” is challenged by bear thus setting up the question: "Who does God help?"

1. God helps those who trust Him
2. God helps those who help themselves

Answered by bear http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2904731:

Trust and obedience go hand in hand. The Israelites where told not to take from the spoils of Jericho. But, Achan did:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/6-audio.html &
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/7-audio.html .

Israel was routed and 36 died because of one man’s disobedience. One man’s disobedience caused him and his whole household to be stoned and burned with fire. The harlot, she was in the genealogy of Jesus.

The passages that you just listened to can be applied to this verse:

• Proverbs 21:31 KJV
The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD.

So, yes, there is a sense in which we “help ourselves” by preparing for battle. But no matter how well prepared safety will be from the LORD.

And these words:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

In preparing for battle, one cannot only lean on their own understanding of how the world works. One must also know and obey the Word of God. Failure to obey God is being wise in your own eyes. It is saying, “I know better than God does.” I will do it my way.

That concept is boiled down in to a simple phrase here:
• 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Which can be seen evidenced in this battle plan given to Gideon:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/judges/7-audio.html

And then here you will see that King Asa is chastised because he did not rely on the Lord. He relied on other nations and kings for help and look what the result was…endless battles. Why? Because the Lord looks for those who will trust him in order to show himself strong on their behalf and the King did not look to God for his help. He walked by sight. Not by faith.

II Chronicles 16:7 And at that time Hanani the seer came to Asa king of Judah, and said unto him, Because thou hast relied on the king of Syria, and not relied on the LORD thy God, therefore is the host of the king of Syria escaped out of thine hand. 8 Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand.9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Why should we trust God? Because He is the Creator of Heaven and Earth. All POWER is His. He passes that POWER to those who trust Him and wait on Him. Those who walk by Faith and not by sight. Those who trust Him will not grow weary.

Isaiah 55:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. 29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: 31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

So, that is a lot of Old Testament Promise and History. Here is the New Testament. Jesus said:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We must abide or walk or live or rest or trust or have faith in Christ. Without Him we can do nothing. What does he want us to do?

Again in John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Simply: LOVE.

Complete audio of John 15: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/john/15-audio.html

Look, I think this is hard. Paul wrote this:

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I don’t know what that means when it comes to war. Does it mean what it says? I do not know. Supposedly we became a nation and a church won the battle of Lexington and Concord

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin735.htm .

The Amish which are pacifists have safe refuge here in the states because men from a church fired the shot heard around the world when the British came to seize the arms…according to Chuck Baldwin.

“On April 19, 1775, British troops, some 800 strong, were dispatched to Concord, Massachusetts, to arrest Sam Adams and John Hancock and to seize a cache of weapons known to be stored at Concord. When Dr. Joseph Warren sent Paul Revere to warn Pastor Jonas Clark (in whose home Adams and Hancock were staying) that the Crown’s troops were on their way to arrest the two men and seize the guns at Concord, he alerted his male congregants. About 60-70 men from the Church of Lexington stood armed on Lexington Green awaiting the Red Coats.

Upon spotting the citizen militia, a British officer demanded the men throw down their arms. They refused; and the British troops immediately opened fire. Eight of the Minutemen were instantly killed. The colonists returned fire in self-defense, and the shot was fired that was heard ’round the world. By the time the troops arrived at the Concord Bridge, just a few miles away, hundreds of colonists were waiting for them with muskets in hand, and the rest, as they say, is history.”

He quotes infowars.com in this article: http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin734.htm

Baldwin is the one that says the Christian and every other US person owes allegiance to the constitution, not to government because the government is under the constitution…remember that conversation we had regarding Romans 13?

I am not studied on war and what is right for the Christian. We have Old Testament examples of God being with the Israelites when they were following His instruction and seeking His help and guidance. Here Jesus says these words:

Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Those words are said right before he was taken by the Chief Priest and delivered for crucifiction. He had earlier in his ministry sent his disciples out to proclaim that the Kingdom of God was at hand and he sent them without money or preparation and they were provided for and were in need of nothing. But before he was to die he told them to buy a sword. Then Peter used the sword when they came to get Jesus and here is what Jesus did and said. In Luke it is in the same chapter but I am giving you Matthew because He records more of Jesus’ words. Jesus heals the servant of the man who is arresting him and tells Peter to put the sword away because they that take up the sword will die by the sword.

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled , that thus it must be?

If you read all of Chuck Baldwin’s words that I gave you…He is ready to become an outlaw if they try to outlaw his semi-auto. He is a Pastor. He was a Baptist Pastor in Florida. He was from an independent group…I am part of the Southern Baptist Group. Anyways Chuck does not believe churches should be 501.3c either. I have also heard him say that when he was a part of the “Moral Majority” group something to the effect that someone in the group conceded for a “seat at the table.” The table would be those of the political criminals probably the CFR. Anyways Chuck said something like…”Is that all you want.” Like that was a ridiculous concession. I heard all of that more than a year ago and I am not repeating it exactly as said, but if you are interested, I will find a link if I can. I just say all of that to say, that he is serious, and does not appear to be “sleeping with the enemy…or accepting a seat at the table of the enemy.”

Last of all I say this:

• Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes, you must help yourself, but in doing so, you cannot exclude God’s help if you expect to have his help. You cannot make a “deal with the devil” for victory and expect safety in battle.

If you look at Gideon’s battle you will see that God whittled the number down to 300 hundred men. A ridiculously low number, but a number that God would use to deliver the victory and give HIMSELF the glory. God will not share glory with another. He says this:

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

God will accomplish what He will accomplish for His Glory alone. If we help ourselves outside of His help, we will not have His help. His help requires faith.

So then, you must have faith to please God. How then will you get faith:
• Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The only way you will have faith is that you must be able to hear. The only way you will be able to hear is by hearing the word of God. That is why we have Old Testament and New Testament accounts and promises to rest upon. They are like monuments or commemorations of the faithfulness of God to those who will have hearts that are perfect toward Him because He is looking for those to whom He can show Himself strong upon their behalf.

Yes, the way is narrow:

• Matthew 7:14 KJV
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Which is why He uses the foolishness of the preaching of the cross:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Kinda sounds ridiculous doesn't it? The preaching of the cross sounds foolish. The whole concoction that some man 2000 years ago was God in Flesh and died on a cross so that you could have peace with God.

But, maybe you are one of the called and therefore will witness that power of God in Salvation in your own life. Kinda like you gotta be a Gideon with 300 men; or a David with a stone to kill a giant; or a Joe with a Jesus to please God.

• Titus 3:5 KJV
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

If you will be saved Joe, none of the glory will be shared with you or with me. It will all be God’s glory. You are powerless to save yourself and I am powerless to save you. Only God’s mercy will save you and you must be called to experience that mercy.

Again:
• Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
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From this answer Josf suggests a new topic covering the resulting questions http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2905602
It may be a good idea to continue the discussion in a separate topic as the subject matter turns toward the verses you now offer.

Who exactly is This Lord when The Lord orders human beings to murder innocent children, and then one human being listens to that order and that one human being obeys that order without question?

1. Who is speaking those orders - exactly.
2. Who obeys those orders - exactly.




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Drones

"Please let me know if I need to give further support and understanding as to why the Scriptures are the Word of God and why they can be trusted because there are also fulfilled prophesies and archeological finds."

To me, as someone not yet (or never), taken over by God, or Jesus, the concept of competition in viewpoints applies. I can see A, B, and C, and as time passes I move on ONE path. I can't go two directions at once. There are many religions, many prophesies, many archeological finds, all of which can be placed side by side for relative comparison based upon some rational sense internal to the observer, or an external power can be working in any case whereby the observe is made to see one viewpoint as the viewpoint used in moving in any direction whatsoever.

We have been working the "kill those babies" direction for a reason.

"The scientific odds of Jesus fulfilling the prophecies concerning the Messiah are..."

Just like republican conservatives discount anything from the democratic liberals, there are plenty of examples of one religious viewpoint discounting anything from the competitive religious viewpoint while the actual use of statistics is identical.

Math does not lie.

People, however, can use math in ways that intend to deceive targets who are deceived by that use of math, and eventually, it seems to me, the deceivers are deceived themselves.

So, my answer to statistical proof, is to ask if it is good for the goose, then is it as good for the gander?

I linked this before:

http://www.enlightenmentnetwork.com/video/2008/9/mayan-calen...

If you understand me, then you understand that my goal is to know better, not worse.

If God/Jesus/Holy Ghost take me over, or contacts me in an unambiguous way, then that event, an event that has not happened, changes my viewpoint in a specific way.

That is my "jealously" thing: restated.

"Jesus is the Light, so it is not a matter of loving human life. It is a matter of loving Jesus, the Light of the World. Jesus said men would rather love darkness than to love him."

I'm having trouble here too. I am measuring contradiction, in my view, which is a view that is absent the factors that cause your view to be your view.

My view is that it is a contradiction to discriminate this love power in such a way as to only love Jesus, not human life, and if you can explain that contradiction, as you have explained the contradiction with how mankind are drones when God actually speaks, and mankind are not drones when God does not speak - if I have that right.

I see a need to reinforce my present viewpoint (then I had better get some work done).

Contradictions:

1.
The word of God reaches people through people, and the word of God is that people are evil (liars) so why trust people?

A. God takes control of people, using people to speak for God, no more contradiction.

2.
Love Jesus, but don't love human life.

A. (I don't know) fill in the blank

In my mind, again, God (when I ask) kind of, and sort of, tells me that if I am going to be helped by God, then I have to help other people, and in order to do so I have to actually listen to what other people have to say. That to me is the definition of love, again, kind of, and sort of, but definitely not targeting other people to take their power from them (crime).

If I only love Jesus, then to me I have no love until Jesus actually finds me? Is that a contradiction or not?

So now I'm even more Jealous?

I have to get some work done and to mark my place I'll end this effort with the last quote taken from your welcome (needed) competitive viewpoint:

"Jesus is the Light, so it is not a matter of loving human life. It is a matter of loving Jesus, the Light of the World. Jesus said men would rather love darkness than to love him."

Joe

Ripples

Thank you for your explanation of Simulated Conversation.

“I do not think like anyone else I know. I do think consistently the same way over and over and over again, and from this very diligent method of thinking, over time, I can gauge my "feelings" as being separate from my thinking. I don't know if you understand these words.”

Though I may not understand it enough to practice myself, or may not be disciplined enough, I find it intriguing.
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"Sinless perfection.”
Murder babies.
That does not compute.
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Yes, I know, I created a whole post about that and now we are talking about it over here lol. It is an issue. I am taking this back to the other post now since we are on this topic.
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“Anything that is unholy is evil. So that is why I say man is evil."
If God does it, or makes one human being do it, it is Holy, and if any man does something on his own, it is evil by definition?
I can offer, again, that I am wrong, certainly, but a human brain, if I am not mistaken, works with switches, and therefore a human brain is either one or zero, on or off, and so reason (not intuition) requires that things add up: 1 plus 1 equals 2, etc.
---------------------------------
I have given this site to you since the very beginning it seems. I want you to use your brain switches, those 1’s and 0’s and look at the attributes of God here: http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god.htm You can click on any of those attributes: Eternal, Faithfulness, Foreknows, Good, Holy, etc, etc…And get a ton of information on the meaning.

The character of God is all of those things simultaneously in perfect balance. God is Holy and God is Merciful and God is Love and God is Faithfull and God Foreknows all at the same time. When God orders the complete destruction of a city He is fully aware of ALL of the implications, past, present and future. For all we know the people in Jericho had murdered all their babies the night before. Or perhaps they had been so mutilated by sexual perversion that their lives could not be preserved. Maybe the whole city had aids or some disease. I don’t know. All I know is that God is Holy, God is Just, God is Merciful and God knows and sees past present and future and God in his Holy Perfection as well ordered it to be done. He spoke word to word with Joshua. Not like here and now. God spoke audibly to the certain people.

I am going to ask you, please listen here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/leviticus/18-audio.html

That chapter contains these words:
Leviticus 18: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying , 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt , shall ye not do : and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do : neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled : therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants . 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done , which were before you, and the land is defiled ;) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

It explains that the Land itself is vomiting the inhabitants out because of sin. I understand it as a law of nature. There is another portion of scripture that says that innocent blood cries out from the soil but I cannot find the words now. But I found these words about Able’s blood crying out to the Lord:
• Genesis 4:10 KJV
And he said , What hast thou done ? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

There is something at work whereby God hears the voice of innocent blood.

Israel did not destroy the inhabitants of the land as they were told to do. Here is what happened:

Psalm 106:34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them: 35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. 37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, 38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

“If you are speaking about intuition, belief, trust, instinct, whatever is the force at work that your perspective is based upon, then there is no reason to offer reasons for it. You have this immeasurable (reasonable) POWER to trust/believe/know/be guided by God, as you see it = perceive.”

I am speaking of faith. There is also rationale. We were discussing that rationale here in this post when I spoke to you about the authenticity of the Bible.

“I can sink all day working on this path of trying to save babies the Christian way. I don't think we are communicating well, and you have identified a very significant founding point that clearly separates our perspectives at the root of our thinking (reason).”

That time was a specific time and place and a specific plan specifically given to a specific person. God does not tell Christians to murder babies.
-----------------------------------
“Does it say in the Bible that God created the process of evolution and at times God places his thumb on the scale?”

No, but the Bible does show that God judges sin. However, it may take generations before that happens because He is Longsuffering or Patient.
----------------------------
“I have priorities that are not right. I struggle, that being said, I am basically a good person."
"I am basically a good person."
"I say man is evil."

In comparison to doing what terrible things, I have good moral behavior. However, I am not holy and I am predisposed to do evil even though most of the time I “mind my manners.” I have done evil even though for the most part I do not practice evil.

“I'm not told, in any way, to be Christian. You don't even tell me.”

What do you mean I don’t tell you? What do you think I have been trying to explain to you?

For all have sinned
The wages of sin is death
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness
Jesus shed his blood
The gift of eternal life is available
It is received thru faith.

“What does "arm of flesh" mean?”

It means trusting in your own efforts apart from God.

“I listened to (read) the link that includes George Washington as a "Founding Father", and my understanding is such that George Washington is a False Front, a "patriot" of dubious authority, myth, legend, a cover story, a "Federalist", and from then on it was hard to read the work.”

Please, don’t shoot the messenger. I was trying to relay what I was speaking to in reference to seeking God for deliverance from oppression.
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So why try to do something that is impossible?
What is possible?
End the Fed, IRS, Bring the troops home…is not possible for you to do alone. It was not even possible for Ron Paul to do with a public platform. Why? Does the arm of flesh fail? Does innocent blood in our land and abroad cry out to God? Will we as a nation be held accountable? It’s not our fault. We cant help it. We were born into this wretched system of the IRS and Fed and never ending wars. I think it will take a miracle of God to get us out of it and that may include ending the fed, irs and bringing the troops home. Or it may be WWIII. Or Jesus may return. I hope it is the first or the last. WWIII I am not up for it, but it may be inevitable because like it or not, we are not islands to ourselves. We live in the ripple effects of all who are around us and we add our own ripples to the mix.

There is a reply above this one that I was waiting for you to finish, or maybe you were finished and i need to answer. If so, I will go back and reread and pick up thoughts. Just let me know. Also as far as Bible translations, I use the King James. I do not have any "extra" Biblical books that are God's Word. I use the King James because it is from the 1600's. It is not copywrited. The newer versions, while easier reading are copywrited, so some have money motives. Some people are hung up on King James only. It is not a sticking point for me. It is what I prefer, it is what Jeff uses. To me it is a side issue.

...

,,,

Condensing

I think the effort to communicate is befuddled for reasons that are befuddling.

Israel is a person, for example, and a process, and a genetic makeup, and a place, and a prejudice, and a hierarchy, and a goal?

And that is the past, and now there is the present, and the future is another goal, and Israel continues to be something as we type.

I don't like the concept of hierarchy/prejudice/favoritism/nepotism/unearned income/subsidy/debt or whatever process miscommunicates responsibility or fails, for any reason, to be precise in accountability.

If a person is innocent and another person injures the innocent person, then I think that process defines the meaning of crime, not the word crime, and not even the word evil, and not even the word bad, and not even the word immoral, but the fact that a criminal, so named, willfully injures a specifically targeted innocent victim, or number of victims (collective punishment?), is, and that process is what it is even if the names were changed every three seconds.

I appreciate the effort to answer my questions concerning your viewpoint and I may need some time to allow all the information to sink in, before I can return to my standard point by point simulated conversation.

Generally speaking: God still appears to be a synonym for truth. The devil still appears to be a synonym for crime, since deception to me is the root of all crime (other than human animals who are as mad dogs with rabies, or natural disasters, not willful, responsible, accountable, human beings), and the history sounds believable, but I'm "Western" and there are many "Eastern" people who may arrive at the same general communications (generally speaking) about their spiritual beliefs (lacking the capacity for reason to add things up precisely). Whenever I detect the process of discrediting the innocent or crediting the guilty, I'm apt to point that out, and when I do, it seems that the answers are non-answers, or efforts to explain, rationalize, the apparent contradictions.

Thinking back, without using my simulated conversation, I see my perspective most easily compared, in agreement, with these words:

"For all we know the people in Jericho had murdered all their babies the night before."

Joe

Food for thought

I am waiting on some clothes to dry so I can leave (that will make sense if you have read my previous post titled "Josf". I am going to copy and paste some information http://bible.org/question/how-could-loving-god-tell-israelit...

This portion that I've copied is from the last part of the page. It will probably be easier to read the link than the paste below. You cann read all of it, but this part here is specifically speaking about the scriptures in Joshua that we are discussing.
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"Israel was commanded by God to completely exterminate the Canaanite inhabitants of the land including men, women, and children. This has been called a primitive and barbaric act of murder perpetrated on innocent lives.

Several factors must be kept in mind in viewing this situation. (1) There is a difference between murder and justifiable killing. Murder involves intentional and malicious hatred which leads to life-taking. On the other hand, the Bible speaks of permissible life-taking in capital punishment (Gen. 9:), in self defense (Exod. 22:2), and in a justifiable war (Gen. 14). (2) The Canaanites were by no means innocent. They were a people cursed of God from their very beginning (Gen. 9:25). They were a vile people who practiced the basest forms of immorality. God described their sin vividly in these words, “I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants” (Lev. 18:25). (3) Further, the innocent people of the land were not slaughtered. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah clearly demonstrates that God would save a whole city for ten righteous people (Gen. 18:22f.). In that incident, when God could not find ten righteous people, He took the four or five righteous ones out of the place so as not to destroy them with the wicked (Gen. 19:15). On another occasion God saved some thirty-two thousand people who were morally pure (Num. 31:35). Another notable example is Rahab, whom God saved because she believed (cf. Heb. 11:31). (4) God waited patiently for hundreds of years, giving the wicked inhabitants of Canaan time to repent (cf. 2 Peter 3:9) before He finally decided to destroy them (Gen. 15:16). When their iniquity was “full,” divine judgment fell. God’s judgment was akin to surgery for cancer or amputation of a leg as the only way to save the rest of a sick body. Just as cancer or gangrene contaminates the physical body, those elements in a society—if their evil is left to fester—will completely contaminate the rest of society. (5) Finally, the battle confronting Israel was not simply a religious war; it was a theocratic war. Israel was directly ruled by God and the extermination was God’s direct command (cf. Exod. 23:27-30; Deut. 7:3-6; Josh. 8:24-26). No other nation either before or after Israel has been a theocracy. Thus, those commands were unique. Israel as a theocracy was an instrument of judgment in the hands of God. (Norman L. Geisler, A Popular Survey of the Old Testament, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1977, pp. 99-100.)"
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...

Josf,

Jesus does not tell you to murder babies.

Jesus tell you to love.

I can hardly think right now. My pop is not doing good. What was supposed to be an overnight hospital stay for observation has turned into 3 nights and I just got a phone call that he is lethargic, disoriented, and has a lung infection. So, I am on my way to Springfield to see what is going on. My sister used the words "slipping away."

I cannot answer your questions well. I listen. I read. I seems if I tell you Jesus does not tell you to murder babies, then you will say, then why did God tell his people to murder babies. You say Jesus is God. Well then, Jesus tells people to murder babies. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but that is how I can rationalize this whole conversation, and I can see that rationale for saying those words and I do not have a good answer right now. I will think while I drive.

Why would God, tell "His people" to attack a city and kill everything in it if God is love?

Right now my answer is, God knows best, and I will not attribute wrong to God. We all deserve to die this very moment. We have all sinned and have all fallen short of the glory of God. It is mercy that we are still here. The people in that city worshipped a devil: Molech. God gave a direct command. Joshua obeyed. Thus people call the God of the Old Testament a Blood Thirsty God. I had never seen those words until being a part of the Daily Paul.

I want to listen to you. Have you told all of this to Jesus. These words you say to me. Can you say them to him?

...

Finding that line in the sand.

"We all deserve to die this very moment."

To me this is the bearing of fruit as can be the goal when employing the process of discussion. It is an idea, or a thought, or a belief, or a viewpoint, or a perspective, no matter who, or where, or how, that perspective becomes a perspective, existing, there is a perspective existing, and then, next to that perspective is another perspective, and one perspective can be compared to another.

I can't say, ever, that I have ever felt a feeling whereby my feelings, thoughts, ideas, beliefs, viewpoint, or perspective could, conceivably, be expressed with that sentence in English.

"We all deserve to die this very moment."

If I let this Jesus concept, or belief, or idea, or perspective, or realization, or gift, or truth, or love, or whatever it is inside me, and I then think a thought that can be expressed with those words in English, then my opinion is that my life will be ruined.

No only do I not think that thought, my thoughts are diametrically opposite of that thought, as my thinking is such that many human beings deserve to stay alive this very moment, and many more souls deserve their chance in the Sun, so that they too can see if their gift is utilized better than anyone else can, in their shoes.

If I ever get that thought in my head, to me, I will treat it as my enemy.

As to your assumptions concerning what I might be thinking or what I might say, in this discussion, I can't agree with your version.

I can certainly sympathize with anyone having a rough time in the effort to make the best of what can be a very difficult set of problems.

"We have all sinned and have all fallen short of the glory of God."

That, to me, is not well supported in fact. Babies are murdered, and they have no time to sin. I suppose that someone who knows the absolute truth, or some thing that knows everything absolutely, can explain why your viewpoint is true as your viewpoint is expressed above, including how these babies have sinned, but I can't see such things ever being proven; hence my viewpoint being what it is, and not what you may think my viewpoint is in fact.

"It is mercy that we are still here."

At the risk of increasing, rather than decreasing, the confusion, or the distance between our viewpoints, I have to ask what is the meaning of the word mercy. If the meaning of the word mercy is anything like the official definition of the meaning of the word belief, then my Power perspective will be applied to that definition as well.

Belief = the power to know something that is not supportable in fact

Mercy = the power to avoid injuring the innocent

If someone is poised to injure the innocent, and the innocent asks for mercy, it seems to me, the criminal will be more likely, not less likely, to go ahead and injure the innocent.

That is how I employ the meaning of the word mercy.

"It is mercy that we are still here."

Many of us are not still here, in particular babies, as those babies were murdered, so they are not here, and they got no mercy.

"The people in that city worshipped a devil: Molech. God gave a direct command. Joshua obeyed. Thus people call the God of the Old Testament a Blood Thirsty God. I had never seen those words until being a part of the Daily Paul."

My guess, trying to bridge the gap, is that God told someone to kill the bad guys, but avoid murdering anyone innocent, and somewhere along the lines the message was misunderstood.

That is as far as I get in this belief of the rightness of murdering babies.

"Thus people call the God of the Old Testament a Blood Thirsty God."

Often is the case, and this has nothing to do with me, or my opinion, this is well established fact, where often is the case that a message is deliberately falsified so as to cover up someone who murders innocent people, including babies.

Blame it on God?

Why does that not sound familiar?

"I want to listen to you. Have you told all of this to Jesus. These words you say to me. Can you say them to him?"

God, Jesus, Dad, Mom, Hank, Aunt Mary, the list is long, and they are all asked these questions, please, please, please, help me with the answers.

I do not want to do the right thing because I want eternal life myself, I want to do the right thing because I think human beings can exist in human form for well past the time when The Earth exists, if we human beings stop blaming THINGS for the things human beings do, and if we hold each other accountable, instead of paying the worst of our number the most POWER that can be produced, we might live past next Tuesday, as a species.

Sure, I get it, I'm stupid, and by far too stupid to know right from wrong; that is why I keep asking.

The answers I think I get do not support thoughts like this:

"We all deserve to die this very moment."

If I am wrong, so be it, push the button.

Take care, please.

Joe

For better or for worse.

Having lived many years, it certainly seems to me that God really does help those who help themselves... for better or for worse.

There is a law of reaping and sowing

• Job 4:8 KJV
Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

• Hosea 10:12 KJV
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

• Galatians 6:8 KJV
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap lifeever lasting.

and there is grace!

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)...19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

...

Did God produce...

...an ark out of thin air for Noah, or did he have to go build it? Did God teleport Abram from Ur to Canaan, or did he have to get up and travel there? Did God whisk the Israelites in a flash across the Red Sea and the Sinai, or did they have to walk through it? Did God spare the cross from Christ, or did He have to go through with it?

God helps those who help themselves. And even if we can't see it completely in this life, He will show mercy and love to all people who turn to Him for help.

Ahh,

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:7 KJV
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear , prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Hebrews 11:8 KJV
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed ; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:29 KJV
By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

which leads to James

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

God does help those who help themselves, but those examples are of people following God's directions.

...

Wonderful

It also makes me think of Joseph in Egypt. He saw the famine coming but he didn't just sit back and watch it. He prepared and prospered for his efforts. And as you say it was not because he acted on his own but because he acted on the understanding that GOD had given him. In other words he had faith in GOD and ACTED on it.

Faith without works is dead. Well said.

Yes

Joseph!

Hebrews 11:22 KJV
By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Well-said...

Thanks for fleshing it out with verses. :)

Thank you!

for the food for thought!

I can tell you who god doesn't help

God doesn't seem to be helping the tens and hundreds of thousands of children being killed by the US military.

God did not help the littler girl with her jaw blown off by terrorist bombings...I mean US ordered military bombings.

God does not help the American citizens against tyranical government.

Soo....despite my christian upbringing...I see it's all a farce. Keep believing if you want.....but I'm sure most of those millions who were starved, abused and died in Hitler's camps prayed hard and prayed often. God didnt' help them either.

Meanwhile, the most evil men the earth has ever seen have ammassed great power. They continue to decieve the public and usurp more and more power for themselves, committing murder, extortion, lies and deciet....with absolutely no consequence....I don't think those men believe in God, and certainly no God is going to stop them. Maybe we should try asking Zues for help. Maybe Odin is still around to save the day. Wonder if Captain America will save us.

I can tell you personally

that it is during the times of my life when I have entered intense suffering for whatever reason or problem, sickness or cause, that it is in those times that My Lord and My God is ever more so precious to me. If and when Patriots are picked up at 4AM, God will be with me. He will already know before I know. He will already be where I will be going whether to heaven or a hell-hole here on earth. I will be with Him and He will be with me and He will be My Comfort and my All because He will be all I will have.

We do not know what God does for people in their private suffering.

Here is an example of someone God helped during those years of Hitler Horror:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_Boom
Arrest and detention
On February 28, 1944, with the help of a Dutch informant, the Nazis learned of the work the ten Booms were doing and arrested the entire ten Boom family at around 12:30 p.m. The family was first sent first to Scheveningen prison where their father died ten days after his arrest. While there, Corrie's sister Nollie, brother Willem, and nephew Peter were all released. Later, Corrie and sister Betsie were sent to the Vught political concentration camp, and finally to the Ravensbrück death camp in Germany. Betsie died there on December 16, 1944. Before she died, she told Corrie, "There is no pit so deep that God's love is not deeper still."[1]

Her teaching focused on the Christian Gospel, with emphasis on forgiveness. In her book Tramp for the Lord (1974), she tells the story of an encounter while she was teaching in Germany in 1947. She was approached by a former Ravensbrück camp guard, who had been known as one of the most cruel. She was reluctant to forgive him, but prayed that she would be able to. Corrie wrote,
"For a long moment we grasped each other's hands, the former guard and the former prisoner. I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then."
She also wrote (in the same passage) that in her post-war experience with other victims of Nazi brutality, it was those who were able to forgive who were best able to rebuild their lives. She appeared on many Christian television programs discussing her ordeal during the Holocaust, and the concepts of forgiveness and God's love. She rejected the doctrine that some asserted, of Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and wrote that it was without Biblical foundation. She believed that such a doctrine left the Christian Church ill-prepared in times of great persecution, such as in China under Mao Zedong. One of Corrie and Betsie's favorite sayings was, 'There is no pit so deep that God is not deeper still'."

Here is a man who has words that are encouraging to me: https://twitter.com/paulwasher

...

God is watching the US.

What the occupational government located in DC is doing to innocents does not escape God's gaze.

Americans willful ignorance of such does not escape His gaze either.

Rest assured God will provide for an accounting. It may not be pretty. I say this with no foreknowledge except for the Bible and History and what is revisited upon the wicked therein.

Yes,

and We The People should be in sack cloth and ashes pleading for mercy and deliverance and repentance.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If you believe that is the end...

...of the story for all those poor people, then I can see how you might despair of the idea of God; but that is not the end of their story. It is only the end of the beginning, with new chapters yet to unfold, giving the greater context.

Hey, why did all the apostles save John end up being executed, crucified, tortured, etc. when they were faithful? What about all the Christians eaten by lions in the circuses or burned at the stake as heretics? Did God abandon them? No -- the joy and peace for them on the other side will make any temporal suffering seem only a blip, a minor road bump.

Of course, this in no way lessens the ugliness of evil and its consequences, and we must strive against it best we can, with what help He will provide. Ultimately, it's faith that He is working all things out for good, beyond our limited perspective.

Who exactly is This Lord

Josf: “Who exactly is This Lord when The Lord orders human beings to murder innocent children, and then one human being listens to that order and that one human being obeys that order without question?
1. Who is speaking those orders - exactly.
2. Who obeys those orders - exactly.”
And bear would like to add the following question:
3. Who were the People of Jericho.

1. Who is speaking those orders - exactly.

The one exactly speaking those orders is outlined in Joshua 5: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/5.html 13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked , and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?14 And he said , Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come . And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship , and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

The LORD is
HOLY
Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god.htm#HOL... OF GOD TABLE OF REFERENCES:
“The word itself means "to be set apart." A thing is holy if it is set apart for a special use…There is a second important meaning of the word holy: "Utterly pure, separated from sin." The Bible tells us that God hates sin, that he cannot sin nor will he tempt others to sin. God is so pure that he cannot tolerate sin in any form in his presence. One day he will destroy sin forever. That leads to an important implication: holiness and sin cannot coexist.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOREKNOWS
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god.htm#FOR... OF GOD TABLE REFERENCES :

“Christ was foreknown because God had planned and determined in His eternal counsel to provide His Son as a sacrifice for His people. The point is God's foreknowledge means more than that God knew ahead of time that Christ would come and die. God’s foreknowledge is the cause for His Son’s sacrifice–because He planned and decreed it.
In other words...
In His omniscience God knows what the future holds both for individuals and for nations. He knows and sees everything in advance and his will is carried out in accord with his plans and purposes...Foreknowledge is closely connected to election and predestination and to God's Sovereign rule of His universe. “
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JEALOUS
Joshua 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(1b).htm#JEALOUS

“To emphasize His hatred and His command against idolatry, God calls Himself Jealous, the Hebrew word Qanna. God's jealousy does not refer to our shallow, childish human emotion but emphasizes that He does not tolerate a divided heart”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JUSTICE
Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(1b).htm#JUST

“Justice is God's fair and impartial treatment of all people. The justice of God is a necessary correlate of His holiness or moral excellence. Since God is infinitely and eternally perfect, He must be impartial in His judgments and always treat His creatures with equity.

God is just and He always acts in a way consistent with the requirements of His character as revealed in His law. He rules His creation with rectitude, He keeps His word, He renders to all His creatures their due. God is just and fair, completely rational and predictable in His dealings, without any shadow of capriciousness.“
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LONGSUFFERING
Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(1b).htm#LONGSUFFERING OF GOD:
“God is patient or long-suffering and not at all precipitous or unreasonable in His dealings with sinful, rebellious mankind. In the Old Testament, God is repeatedly described as "slow to anger". God's longsuffering is that power which He exercises over Himself, allowing Him to bear with sinners, forbearing long in punishing them.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOVE
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(1b).htm#LOVE

“The theme of the entire Bible is the self-revelation of the God of love. In the garden of Eden, God commanded that "you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Ge 2:17). We are not prepared, then, when God looks for Adam after his sin, calling out "Where are you?" God seeks Adam, not to put him to death, but to reestablish a relationship with him. God, the Lover, will not allow sin to stand between him and his creature. He personally bridges the gap.

That seeking and bridging reaches its pinnacle when God sends his Son into the world to rescue sinners and to provide them with eternal life….”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MERCY
Psalm 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(1b).htm#MERCY OF GOD

Mercy is when that which is deserved is withheld to the benefit of the object of the mercy. God has demonstrated this attribute in abundance with respect to mankind. We from nearly the beginning of our existence have deserved nothing but wrath; having sinned and fallen short of eternal life in glory, we can do nothing to commend ourselves to or defend ourselves before God. But thankfully, God has been so amazing in His mercy. Over and against merely having the mercy to allow us to live out our miserable lives without destroying us instantly, God has chosen us to greatness and glory by the hand of His Son. The believer finds himself in Christ and enjoys full well the fruits of God's mercy. Source: Blue Letter Bible http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/attributes.cfm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OMNIPOTENT
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(ii).htm#OMNIPOTENT
“God is all powerful and thus has unlimited authority & influence. He has the ability to do whatever His will dictates. Man may have the authority but not the ability to carry through.“
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OMNIPRESENT
Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(ii).htm#OMNIPRESENT
“His presence in every place at the same time! As a result there is nowhere in the universe that lies outside of God's cognition and care. God can be scoffed at, mocked at, disbelieved, impugned, spurned, blasphemed, etc, but ultimately He is unavoidable!”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OMNISCIENT
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(ii).htm#OMNISCIENT
“God’s omniscience is His knowledge of all things including actual and possible, past, present, and future (foreknowledge).
God is all knowing, and His knowledge is in no way restricted by temporal considerations. He knows and sees the past, the present, and the future with equal clarity and absolute certainty. To Him, all is the present.
God knows all things perfectly“
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Who obeys those orders - exactly.”
Listenting to the first chapter of Josuah: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/joshua/1.html will give you a historical and spiritual perspective of who this Man Joshua is.
He is the man that said this:
• Joshua 24:15 KJV
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve ; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell : but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
3. Who were the People of Jericho.
The people of Jericho worshiped Molech.
• 2 Chronicles 28:3 KJV
Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

http://molech.com/molech-and-human-sacrifice.html (This is not a site that I am recommending, but is given as reference material.)

It was a society completely given over to destruction. I think a good way to tie all of these questions and answers together would be to listen John MacArthur’s discussion on Jericho: http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-29/the-faith-of-rahab

...

Let me answer your first question.

“Who exactly is This Lord when The Lord orders human beings to murder innocent children, and then one human being listens to that order and that one human being obeys that order without question?

He is the very same "Lord" who became flesh and offered salvation to all who believe and obey His word.

Yes,

you are exactly right and exactly succinct. Thank you for making it so simple. I tend to get wrapped around the axel in explanation. Thank you.

Thanks

I love simplicity. :-)

God helps

pedophiles get parents to turn their children over to them.
God helps George Bush get elected, twice.
God helps people justify endless wars.

And then there is the Creator, who helps me keep breathing even when I am too worn out to want to.

Those are my observations, other opinions can and will vary.

This is the article that got my posting privileges revoked:
http://bklim.newsvine.com/_news/2013/05/12/18212165-dr-stan-...

I never thought of you

as an idiot until now. Complete dribble.

You probably blame God for kids getting run over by buses or being shot in their school rooms. Both of which are a direct result of mans rejection of Him. Everything that happens in politics and life is a result of cause and effect. It has nothing to do with God because government and society have shunned Him. Don't blame God for the rebellion and decay of mankind to this lowly state. And the implication that there is a creator and a God is just as ignorant.

I don't really think you are an idiot, just a ignorant about God.

Or maybe you are just over reacting?

"God" is a concept that humans made up. It is a nonspecific pronoun, until we capitalize it and then we all agree it means... a different guy... We will fight wars over which book God wrote and what other name he goes by. The Creator made man, and in his effort to understand that which is beyond mortal's comprehension, mad created gods. I do not blame "god" for that, and I certainly don't blame the Creator.

This is the article that got my posting privileges revoked:
http://bklim.newsvine.com/_news/2013/05/12/18212165-dr-stan-...

Fair enough

It just gets a little old hearing people blame "God" for the woes of this world. So maybe I do over react at times to words. Heck I don't even like the title god as a reference to our creator but in order to avoid confusion I still use it.

I think one of the biggest problems is that to many men think that they are god.

"It's CAKE, [Oedipal Malefactor]..."

"..you're dead!" -- Patton Oswalt.

The other question is:
WHOM does god help with his grammar?

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

I think Gene Greigh

just helped me with mine. Thank you.

Hi Fishy

If I read your comment the way I think I am reading it, it appears that you may attribute evil to God, or perhaps what you are saying is that evil people use God to justify sin?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God is Creator. One of my favorite resources is http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god.htm which gives a study on the Attributes of God as made known in the Bible.