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An Anarchist's Frustration

You believe that war is just when an American flag is present on the battlefield. I do not.

You say that taxation is the price we pay for civilization. I disagree.

You claim that men with guns and badges have a higher claim on my life and property because they were elected, or appointed, to a position of power. I am offended.

You think that an organization who has the final say in any disagreement, even involving itself; a monopoly on aggressive force; the sole power to declare legal tender; and the ability to fund itself through involuntary means isn't going to abuse this power? I know better.

Yet somehow, I am the idealist?

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I know many liberty lovers are not anarchists, as I am, but surely you understand my frustration when someone claims, "Oh, you're just being idealistic."

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A call to peace.

Think this thread is much ado about nothing. I think us libertarians of all stripes; anarcho-capitalists, minarchists, constitutionalists, etc. can all work together to reduce government.

I hate making appeals to "practicality", but I'm going to anyway. None of us are likely to wake up one day and realize that government has been shrunk too much, so we can all continue to work together in shrinking it.

I think a lot of the hostility within this thread emanates from the way its author wrote his/her defense of anarchy. The premisises are accusatory and confrontational. This has resulted in all the insipid attacks that flow through these pages.

A serious discussion can be had about how these differing schools of libertarianism can achieve reductions in government and the axiomatic truths premised in each different school of thought, but I don't see anything positive coming out of this stupidly hostile thread.

I understand what you're saying, and I've tried. It doesn't work

"I think us libertarians of all stripes; anarcho-capitalists, minarchists, constitutionalists, etc. can all work together to reduce government."

I've tried, and I'm not going anywhere. These Anarchists DO NOT have your best interest in mind, and WANT to destroy those defending liberty through limited government.

Anarchists want only one thing; to destroy.

They don't want to fix anything. The only people they want to "work together with" are those who want to destroy, and they will happily destroy the liberty movement if the liberty movement participates in the political process. They want a process of mob violence and destruction, but can't find enough people to use to serve their agenda, and now it's collapsing on their heads.

They mock patriots as government worshipers, they ridicule Libertarians and Republicans as statists, and attack anybody who wants to fix the problem rather than just destroy everything that they say causes injustice.

Yet they have NO IDEA what causes injustice, and imagine they'll only be free once chaos reigns and they're "free" to buy and use violence and coercion in a free market to get what they unjustly want; power.

Well

just avoid the nihilists and work with the anarchists that are interested in building a better society. That is what Ron Paul did.

Just throwing out blanket statements about all of them will not help.

Spoken like a true anarchist.

If not who is your ruler. Queen Elizabeth?

Free includes debt-free!

ChristianAnarchist's picture

FreedomsReigning ??

It seems FreedomsReigning is only concerned about "Freedom" for him. The rest of us can go suck eggs I guess. No logic works to sway a mind like his. He wouldn't know "freedom" if it was standing right in front of him (and it is...)

Seems the tactic of people like that is to just keep spewing illogical hatred until logical people give up and stop posting. Have to say it's having that effect on me. I dread coming here and reading his drivel...

Beware the cult of "government"...

Considering that s/he's broken several of the site's rules

repeatedly, maybe a mod should just ban FR? S/he's even worse than Armyfree was with all the OWS shilling.

1. No profane, disrespectful or divisive language.
5. Do not engage in flame wars, personal attacks on other members, incite or encourage violence, post spam or advertisements.

but especially...

7. No Assholes

A signature used to be here!

That could describe every Anarchist I've encountered.

Every Anarchist I've had the misfortune of listening to here at the DP breaks most of the Daily Paul's rules, yet they are EMBRACED and welcomed back?

Why should I fear being kicked out. What is it about ME that you're so afraid of Anarchist. Why do I need to be banned? Why is you can't answer me you Anarchist fraud?

All I want is for you to explain your broken and worthless ideas concerning a free market of coercion and violence, yet all I get in response is an ocean of: "Profane, disrespectful and divisive language; flame wars and personal attacks, the inciting or encourage violence (and criminality), spam and advertisements for the Anarchist toilet bowl of political ideologies."

Not true. You are the only one breaikng the rules

Welcome fellow anarchist.

Free includes debt-free!

that reinforces that you don't recognize truth

If you think I'm an Anarchist, than clearly that reinforces that you don't recognize truth or believe that words have meaning, but you do want to incite through personal attacks and have a flame war.

Like I just said. Anarchists are TERRIFIED of me because they have NO ANSWER, and the only answer they now have is to try and ban me, by 'inciting through lies and personal attacks'.

You are a nihilist, and like I've said many times, Anarchists are nihilists who recognize no objective bases for truth. They are worthless to the truth and to liberty and it has to do with WHY you would call me a Anarchist; because an Anarchists words have no meaning.

Your delusional

Save your fictions for your next stage play.

Free includes debt-free!

Defend your ideas than? Can you? Nope... They're indefensible

"It seems FreedomsReigning is only concerned about "Freedom" for him."

I don't fight for an Anarchists version freedom, because it serves no functional purpose or value in defending people's freedom or their liberty. What an Anarchist wants is chaos and destruction, a free market of coercion and violence serving the principle of self interest without debate, representation or consent.

What Anarchists offer is a utopia that serves mans covetous nature, and to covet is to take what you don't have a right to; another persons liberty. So what they're offering is a fraud, not freedom and certainly not liberty. What they're offering is the big lie, just like they are. YOU ARE A FRAUD, and a useless tool serving destruction and injustice, so you will be destroyed Anarchist.

"The rest of us can go suck eggs I guess."

You can go suck on whatever you want Anarchist. I'm a libertarian, so just make sure that it's another consenting adult.

"No logic works to sway a mind like his."

You can't offer me any logic Anarchist. Where's the logic in a free market of coercion and violence? SPEAK YOU ANARCHIST PHONY! Show me your logic. You're a lying imposter hiding behind liberty. Anarchists serve no function that protects liberty, and in fact condemn the solutions that do. They're Nihilists and libertines, phonies like you, who run their foul mouths but nothing with meaning or any logic ever comes out.

"He wouldn't know "freedom" if it was standing right in front of him"

You wouldn't know freedom, because you have no idea why people lose their freedom or what opposes liberty, why a free market of coercion ends in the same kind of collective force you claim to oppose, and that force will be used to take peoples freedom and liberty, and nobody will care that you don't like it or when you scream about the NAP. They will CHOOSE to use violence to take liberty in your free market of coercion and violence.

Anarchists make great slaves, because they're cowards and nihilists, so they can neither fight back with that gun their hand, nor with their voices, because the only thing that comes from nihilists mouth is GARBAGE, something without power that they can't defend.

"Seems the tactic of people like that is to just keep spewing illogical hatred until logical people give up and stop posting."

You keep saying illogical, and I LOVE it, because I know how you phonies think you represent reason and logic, yet your ideas are indefensible and worthless; something you can't defend with logic, and all you have left is that worthless voice of yours and the insults it spews.

COME YOU ANARCHIST PHONY. tell me about how a free market of coercion and violence is going to be used to defend liberty? Speak ANARCHIST. Don't just run your foul mouth. Offer me some of your nihilist logic you pathetic phony?

You've got to expect it

There are agents all over the internet trying to muddy things, trying to marginalize, trying to silence the voices of reason and logic with name calling and distraction and make us think we MUST be ruled against our will and that might makes right. View it as an opportunity to respond to the lack of logic and reason with coherent argument.

You can offer me no logic Anarchist.

Anarchists are nihilists who condemn the very idea of reason and logic, that there is a objective basis for truth, so when you ask them to communicate their logic and use their ability to reason out what happens in a free market of coercion and violence, all they can do is what you just did, run their mouths insulting people.

YOU ARE A PHONY and fraud trying to destroy while you hide behind liberty. You want to use people, to form a mob and destroy my Constitutional Republic. So screw you Anarchists. Go fight for your own country, and watch how many people show up to help you; NONE.

Live a life of destruction, and be destroyed.

Nonsense

>>>Anarchists are nihilists who condemn the very idea of reason and logic,<<<<

Not believing in the necessity or desirability of a parasitic ruling class hardly makes one a nihilist!

>>> that there is a objective basis for truth,<<<<

Tom Woods and Lew Rockwell, among other Christians, believe that God is the objective standard of truth.

>>>> so when you ask them to communicate their logic and use their ability to reason out what happens in a free market of coercion and violence, all they can do is what you just did, run their mouths insulting people.<<<

You did not ask me that. I will respond to it now, however. In the first place, you are assuming that the state prevents coercion and violence when that is the very definition of the state and it is used against us daily. At least in the absence of a state that massive level of coercion and violence will not exist and the chances of surviving and throwing off bondage are much greater. You think the state protects you from "chaos and violence" when that is what they do. Columbine, 9/11, Oklaqhoma City, Aurora...these are all orchestrated chaos and violence to justify increased state power.

>>>>>YOU ARE A PHONY and fraud trying to destroy while you hide behind liberty.<<<<

Name calling=ad hominem.

>>>> You want to use people, to form a mob and destroy my Constitutional Republic.<<<<

How is an anarchist, with no money, no rich backers (unlike your state) going to destroy or force anything? It is the state who creates and arms "rebels" to overthrow states. YOU are welcome to contract with other like minded people to live in a "constitutional republic". You have no right to force your beliefs on others, however....as the Federalists did in Philadelphia.

>>>> So screw you Anarchists. Go fight for your own country, and watch how many people show up to help you; NONE.<<<<

LOL! I don't have to fight your violent wars according to your rules. Every day more and more people are waking up to the reality of the immorality of state worship. It will crumble of its own evil.

>>>>Live a life of destruction, and be destroyed.<<<<

That would be YOU, not me.

You completely ignored my point. As usual Anarchist.

"Not believing in the necessity or desirability of a parasitic ruling class hardly makes one a nihilist!"

Being an Anarchist is what makes you a Nihilist, because that's what Anarchists are and the Anarchist agenda serves a nihilists destructive agenda, and they need to sell that destruction to people who they don't believe can defend objective truth.

"Tom Woods and Lew Rockwell, among other Christians, believe that God is the objective standard of truth."

Lew Rockwell: "It would be a great thing to break up the US."

I don't care what Lew Rockwell and Tom Woods think or say, because Lew Rockwell wants to destroy, to "break up" my Constitutional Republic, and Tom Woods says it's immoral to initiate force, but justice begins by initiating force against innocent people.

Am I never supposed to arrest Tom Woods and question him about his crimes unless I catch him in the act? Does he want to be free to do whatever he wants without facing justice? In my country, justice begins by initiating force against an innocent person.

"Innocent until proven guilty."

Tom Woods MUST be in the "Guilty until proven innocent" camp then?

"You are assuming that the state prevents coercion and violence when that is the very definition of the state and it is used against us daily."

No, I'm not. I'm not a pacifist. I'll happily use coercion and violence against people who take liberty. That's called serving justice, and you will to, but you want that sold off to the highest bidder in free market where whoever can buy the most violence decides what justice is. What you want is Goon squads and I'll happily meet them with force, collectivizing people, and meeting violence with violence to be free of your free market of violence.

But that's what you really want isn't it; chaos, and a clean slate for violence to reign, to destroy, and set the principle of self interest loose in a free market of coercion and violence.

"At least in the absence of a state that massive level of coercion and violence will not exist and the chances of surviving and throwing off bondage are much greater."

No, there will be a free market of coercion and violence and everybody will invest in what serves their self interest, their covetous nature. and they'll use your chaos to take what they unjustly want.

Look around at the world; who's winning elections and why? All you need to do is tempt these people with what they unjustly want, and what they want is plunder, slaves and dominion, so that's what your free market of coercion and violence will serve; mans covetous nature. You will create a free market of injustice sold to whoever buy the most violence.

"You think the state protects you from "chaos and violence" when that is what they do."

The state threatens to impose force on those suspected of breaking the law, of committing a crime, and that is coercion, but I don't think the government can protect me from all chaos and violence. But if it wasn't for the coercion created by government violence, you'd already be trying to buy goon squads to go out and use violence and coercion against people whom you have no association with nor their consent.

The government uses violence to enforce the law, and the laws are written by elected representatives. Nobody's given you the authority to go out in the world with goon squads, and should you try, justice will be served. Government force is not violence serving the whim of those who pay for it. It's violence serving the law, and the law is supposed to be debated and voted on by people morally capable of writing laws that serve justice; that defend liberty.

At least with open debate and representation we have a system to deal with criminals who try to write laws that take liberty. Everybody can see them for what they are. We have debate and elections, and the criminals ultimately lose the consent of the people. We're reaching that point where the law is no longer enforceable by morally upright men and women, but if we don't have enough of them left, nothing really matters anyway.

"Name calling=ad hominem."

Calling you a dick would be name calling. I'm describing what you are.

"How is an anarchist, with no money, no rich backers (unlike your state) going to destroy or force anything?"

Mob violence. The same way all governments get overthrown and replaced. You want chaos and to create a scene that people will accept as a revolution, and then you'll try to replace what gets destroyed with what you can't describe, another form of government. (Anarchists are mostly Communists BTW)

Anarchists are liars frauds; agents of change who want to use people to serve their agenda, but they can't be honest about what their agenda is, because most just want to destroy and trust in another Anarchist to explain what it is they want to create.

"Every day more and more people are waking up to the reality of the immorality of state worship."

I don't worship the state Anarchist, but a Godless man mistakes many things as worthy of worship, including themselves.

You're an insult to people of faith, and I can't think of ANY reason why I shouldn't see THAT as your only real intent, to be an insult to liberty, and those who defend it.

>>>>"Not believing in the

>>>>

"Not believing in the necessity or desirability of a parasitic ruling class hardly makes one a nihilist!"******
Being an Anarchist is what makes you a Nihilist, because that's what Anarchists are<<<<<<

LOL!! Are you SERIOUS with this?? Being an anarchist makes me an anarchist because that's what anarchists are????!!!!

>>>>> and the Anarchist agenda serves a nihilists destructive agenda, and they need to sell that destruction to people who they don't believe can defend objective truth.<<<<<

Nihilists do not believe in objective truth or morality and that nothing can be known. That is certainly not descriptive of the anarchists I know. But perhaps you know some like that, just like I know statists like yourself, who worship state power and violence.

>>>>>>"Tom Woods and Lew Rockwell, among other Christians, believe that God is the objective standard of truth."

Lew Rockwell: "It would be a great thing to break up the US."<<<<

Yes. Robert E. Lee and other great Americans who believed in state sovereignty believed the same.

>>>>>I don't care what Lew Rockwell and Tom Woods think or say, because Lew Rockwell wants to destroy, to "break up" my Constitutional Republic, and Tom Woods says it's immoral to initiate force, but justice begins by initiating force against innocent people.<<<<

But "your" constitutional republic ceased to exist when Lincoln declared war on the sovereign states that withdrew consent to be tyrannized by the centrak state. At any rate, the only just gov't derives it's power from the consent of the governed...or don't you believe that? Removal of state tyranny is not "destruction", except to the tyrants.

>>>>>Am I never supposed to arrest Tom Woods and question him about his crimes unless I catch him in the act?<<<<

What crimes are you talking about?

>>>>> Does he want to be free to do whatever he wants without facing justice? In my country, justice begins by initiating force against an innocent person.<<<<

What force has Tom Woods initiated against anyone??

>>>>"Innocent until proven guilty."
Tom Woods MUST be in the "Guilty until proven innocent" camp then?<<<

I have NO idea what you are blathering about.

>>>>>"You are assuming that the state prevents coercion and violence when that is the very definition of the state and it is used against us daily."***********

No, I'm not. I'm not a pacifist. I'll happily use coercion and violence against people who take liberty. That's called serving justice, and you will to, but you want that sold off to the highest bidder in free market where whoever can buy the most violence decides what justice is. What you want is Goon squads and I'll happily meet them with force, collectivizing people, and meeting violence with violence to be free of your free market of violence.<<<<

Every single thing you are posting about free marketers doing in the event they ever get liberty is EXACTLY what YOUR parasitical political class is doing NOW. You make no sense.

>>>>>But that's what you really want isn't it; chaos, and a clean slate for violence to reign, to destroy, and set the principle of self interest loose in a free market of coercion and violence.<<<<

Uh, NO. You make no sense, just wild accusations and smears.

>>>>>>>>"At least in the absence of a state that massive level of coercion and violence will not exist and the chances of surviving and throwing off bondage are much greater."

No, there will be a free market of coercion and violence and everybody will invest in what serves their self interest, their covetous nature. and they'll use your chaos to take what they unjustly want. <<<<<

You haven't proved that liberty brings "chaos". You just prefer your politicians and government goons run things.

>>>Look around at the world; who's winning elections and why? All you need to do is tempt these people with what they unjustly want, and what they want is plunder, slaves and dominion, so that's what your free market of coercion and violence will serve; mans covetous nature. You will create a free market of injustice sold to whoever buy the most violence.<<<<

How will they do this without police, armies, secret police and indoctrination camps?

"You think the state protects you from "chaos and violence" when that is what they do."

The state threatens to impose force on those suspected of breaking the law, of committing a crime, and that is coercion, but I don't think the government can protect me from all chaos and violence. But if it wasn't for the coercion created by government violence, you'd already be trying to buy goon squads to go out and use violence and coercion against people whom you have no association with nor their consent.

What utter crap. The state loots and kills with impunity and you have no problem with it. This is a waste of time.

You get it

It is utopian to expect human beings to be given absolute power over other human beings to not abuse that power. Even IF humans were morally perfect (and defining that in this day and age is impossible) they do not have the knowledge necessary to wisely and fairly rule over their fellow men. It is impossible.
Statists fear liberty. They all want it for themselves, but want their neighbors forced to live as they, the statists, want.
Simply wanting everyone to be free of aggression from state agents promises nothing but the freedom to do with your life what you want as long as you don't aggress against others.
It's all moot anyway as the state class has baldly stated they owe US nothing and we owe them all. They do not protect, help or defend us in any way...unless it suits another related interest.

I want to be free from much more than "State Agents"

"Simply wanting everyone to be free of aggression from state agents promises nothing but the freedom to do with your life what you want as long as you don't aggress against others."

I want to be free from much more than "State Agents", and I don't try and blame injustice on the state. Just what kind of system of justice are you going to offer people when they're the victim of mans covetous nature and somebody chooses to use violence to take what isn't rightly theirs, including your liberty.

What are you going to do when a collective uses your free market of coercion and violence to serve their self interest and take what they covet because THEY CAN, because they can buy more muscle than you, and they can do it without any fear that they'll face justice themselves. Why should I not believe that you just want a world filled with coercion and violence rather one that opposes it, and only uses force to defend liberty, to serve justice.

_____________________________________________________________________

"WHAT IF?"

Let me ask you, what if I, and a whole bunch of other people don't give a damn about your liberty or the NAP?

What if we don't think you should even have liberty, that you aren't worthy of it. What if we think you are a soulless animal here to serve us. What if we would LOVE to use your free market of violence and coercion as our weapon to take your liberty.

What if we have WAY more money than you and we won't be constrained by your BS ideas about justice, or the NAP knowing that whatever ends with you serving us IS JUSTICE?

I say this, because you seem to want to empower warlords to fill the roll you currently reserve for government, and I can assure that covetous people will have NO PROBLEM using your system to take liberty with collective force. They can't wait to invest in YOUR destruction and enslavement.

Look around at the world. Notice who keeps winning elections and what they unjustly want? (plunder, slaves, and dominion)

All an Anarchist offers is a blank slate where warlords start from ground zero fighting for absolute control; absolute power.

What is it? Do you think you're on the winning team? Do think that your warlord will win the day in a free market of coercion and violence, or do you just want to be able to buy little slave boys without the fear of facing justice?

>>> I want to be free from

>>>
I want to be free from much more than "State Agents", and I don't try and blame injustice on the state.<<<<

The world is full of injustice and inequality. But the state makes it much worse by granting privilege to their cronies, monetary monopolism and preventing free access to economic opportunity. They don't provide justice. Everywhere they make things "just" they subjugate another.

>>>> Just what kind of system of justice are you going to offer people when they're the victim of mans covetous nature and somebody chooses to use violence to take what isn't rightly theirs, including your liberty.<<<

I suggest firearms to protect yourself. When something happens out where I live, the cop response time is 30-60 minutes. The paramedics (volunteer) within 10. Just what makes you think the humans who comprise the state class do not have a "covetous nature"?? How is it logical to give THOSE humans a monopoly on aggression while you irrationally fear your neighbor?

>>>>What are you going to do when a collective uses your free market of coercion and violence to serve their self interest and take what they covet because THEY CAN, because they can buy more muscle than you, and they can do it without any fear that they'll face justice themselves.<<<<

???!!The state "collective" does that to people EVERY day! They just haven't tread on YOUR toes yet! The odds of a "collective" getting that big without the state giving them tax loot and economic privilege are MUCH better than in the presence of a state.

>>>> Why should I not believe that you just want a world filled with coercion and violence rather one that opposes it, and only uses force to defend liberty, to serve justice.<<<<

Well, that is the beauty part. I don't ask you to believe anything. You can hate my guts and form a republic with other like minded statists and think you are safe and free. I certainly can't hurt you nor do I have enough money to hire a private army. All I want is to be left alone.

_____________________________________________________________________

>>>"WHAT IF?"
Let me ask you, what if I, and a whole bunch of other people don't give a damn about your liberty or the NAP?<<<

You mean like the current US government?

>>>>>What if we don't think you should even have liberty, that you aren't worthy of it.<<<

LOL!! You don't!!

>>> What if we think you are a soulless animal here to serve us. What if we would LOVE to use your free market of violence and coercion as our weapon to take your liberty.<<<<

I have no idea what you mean by "free market of violence and coercion". Are you saying that it is better to only have the state class have the monopoly on violence and coercion??? Why do you think state agents are morally superior to the rest of us and can be trusted with this monopoly and it is dangerous for the rest of us to be free to defend ourselves? (Clue: you worship the state).

>>>>What if we have WAY more money than you and we won't be constrained by your BS ideas about justice, or the NAP knowing that whatever ends with you serving us IS JUSTICE?<<<<

Again, that IS the current state of affairs with the state class monopoly on aggression. "WAY" more money would STILL be easier to fight than the globalist gazillions.

>>>>>I say this, because you seem to want to empower warlords to fill the roll you currently reserve for government,<<<<

This is an outright lie, I have posted no such thing and posit to you that that is YOUR position as your state loots and funds warlords all over the place including in this country to keep people in line.

>>>>> and I can assure that covetous people will have NO PROBLEM using your system to take liberty with collective force. They can't wait to invest in YOUR destruction and enslavement.<<<<

But your Noble Government has no "covetous" humans in it who would abuse their monopoly on aggression.....even as we see it every day. Your worship of politicians and bestowing of sainthood upon them is sickening. You love your chains, you fear freedom and your fellow slaves. You are like the crab in a bucket of crabs who drags the crab who tries to climb out of the bucket back into it.

>>>>>>Look around at the world. Notice who keeps winning elections and what they unjustly want? (plunder, slaves, and dominion)<<<<<

You make my point.

>>>>All an Anarchist offers is a blank slate where warlords start from ground zero fighting for absolute control; absolute power.<<<<

And it is SO much better to pretend we elect our warlords!! LOL!!! Yes. I will settle for a blank slate, freedom.

>>>>What is it? Do you think you're on the winning team? Do think that your warlord will win the day in a free market of coercion and violence, or do you just want to be able to buy little slave boys without the fear of facing justice?<<<<<

Your lack of logic is astounding. I have no interest in any team, any collective or battling anyone...except on a winnable local level. Obviously I have no chance against your government nukes and armies.

Harriet Tubman said she freed a million slaves....and could have freed a million more if they had realized they were slaves.
.

Granting privilege to cronies will be NO PROBLEM

"But the state makes it much worse by granting privilege to their cronies,"

Granting privilege to cronies will be NO PROBLEM in a free market of coercion and violence. In fact, that will be just about the only thing that gets purchased, privilege, which may explain why Anarchists think they're surrounded by idiots and sheep here to be ridiculed and destroyed.

They think they should live a life of privilege.

"They don't provide justice. Everywhere they make things "just" they subjugate another."

You don't understand justice than. Defending liberty with force is justice. Defending liberty with force does not create a victim, it protects the innocent. Justice is to deny somebody what they don't have a right to. You don't have a right to slaves, or to steal, or to murder. People have a right to their liberty, so others don't have a right to take it.

When the laws that get written no longer protect liberty, but rather take it, than the government serves injustice and oppression, which is the problem, but a free market of violence and coercion will have NO PROBLEM serving the same thing; injustice, because that's what people want. People covet and have a covetous nature. They want what isn't theirs and what they don't have a right to, and the entire world is under attack by what JFK called a ruthless and monolithic conspiracy that relies on "covet means" to further it's sphere of influence.

It relies on covet means to spread injustice, so that's what people get encouraged to do, to live a covetous life, to be morally bankrupt, to unjustly want, to beg a politician to answer their unjust prayers by taking another persons liberty by force.

Your gun won't be enough against what's created in a free market of coercion and violence. You will face collective force. You can't get rid of collective force by getting rid of government.

You will be outgunned, and even if you aren't, chaos will reign while everybody tries to outgun each others collective of violence.

"Just what makes you think the humans who comprise the state class do not have a "covetous nature"?"

They DO have a covetous nature, and they should be held accountable to all the same laws the rest of us are forced to obey. Equal protection under the law. No "state class".

You seem to want me to defend a criminal government, but what you get is the same thing and even worse in a free market of violence and coercion, because as I said, it will be ALL ABOUT creating a privileged class, a "state class" of criminals; gangland government, that is until it all explodes in violence. Which is probably the only thing you really want anyway.

"The odds of a "collective" getting that big without the state giving them tax loot and economic privilege are MUCH better than in the presence of a state."

Ever hear of something called extortion, protection money? Taxes will STILL be collected in your free market of violence and coercion. In fact, Anarchy could easily be used to take over the entire world. Might will make right, and your only hope is that nobody with the means tries to take over. Remember, most people just want to be left alone. They CAN be extorted, and won't know what to do when they see just how big your top down authoritarian Anarchy becomes.

Make no mistake about it. You will serve a Warlord and his "privileged class" and they will use coercion and violence to take what they covet. The only question is who wins, and how long does it take.

Do you think you serve the winning warlord?

"All I want is to be left alone."

I know you do. You want your liberty, but you aren't alone in the world, and there's NOTHING you can do to prevent people from using collective force. People gang up. You can only make the case that collective force should only be used to defend individual liberty; to serve justice.

"Freedom, liberty, and their common defense."

You won't be able to defend your own liberty. You'll need help. I need your help to make the case, and win the debate and get these covetous people to stop stealing from each other, but getting rid of government won't solve the problem, nor will a free market of violence and coercion.

"I have no idea what you mean by a free market of violence and coercion."

Sure you do. You keep bitching and moaning about a monopoly of violence, but there's no monopoly of violence. We have divided government, a tiered system, and you can still use force to defend yourself. If there's any question about what you did, and whether you broke the law, you'll get stand in front of a jury. You just want to be able to use coercion and violence against other people threatening to take their liberty; free market solutions using violence and coercion to keep the peace sold off to those who can pay for it.

If you want Goon Squads, that would mean you think you have a right to destroy something, that you have dominion over this land, but you don't. The American people have conquered this land, and it's ours, and if the Anarchists want their own country, they're going to have to fight for it, but none of them will.

That's where the mob comes in. You want to use people, to hide in a mob, and throw rocks through windows. You want to run around with your little black flag imaging you're taking over, but you'll get killed in the street. You want to overthrow my Constitutional Republic rather than deal with the criminals who currently hold office.

Like Lew Rockwell, you want to destroy the United States, to break it up to serve your unjust desires, to have your own country, but you're outgunned and out manned, so you need to find people to use as your foot soldiers in a war against the United Sates and our Constitution.

"Again, that IS the current state of affairs with the state class monopoly on aggression."

I don't see that at all. I see a terrified government that doesn't know what to do because they've lost the consent of the people, and they know they need to operate within the United Sates Government, and that's becoming a VERY hard thing to do. It needs to be destroyed, and I say that's where you Anarchists come into play. You will be used Anarchist and those who can buy the most violence will use you.

Americans know what's up, including our police and military, and we're all armed to the teeth Anarchist. I suggest you hide that black flag of yours for awhile.

"you are like the crab in a bucket of crabs who drags the crab who tries to climb out of the bucket back into it."

You still didn't answer my question, and that's because it can't be answered, and you know you're a fraud. The problem is that men covet and will use both systems to take liberty, but mine is MUCH harder to use than yours and fewer people will die.

"You make my point."

No, you've destroyed own admitting that the world is filled with covetous people who will have NO PROBLEM using your free market of violence and coercion to serve their self interest.

You were better of playing make believe blaming injustice on government and thinking people are good, because now, you have no hope of pretending that what you offer ends in anything other than mass collective violence, a gangland of injustice and extortion, murder and coercion, a "free world" filled with little covetous monsters buying slaves, foot soldiers and privilege.

"Yes, I will settle for a blank slate, freedom."

Again, proving my point. You are a fraud who wants to grovel at the feet of a Warlord. Which one do you think you serve? Do you think he wins the day in a free market of violence, or do you just want to buy "little slave boys" to serve your nature without the fear of facing justice?

"I have no interest in any team, any collective or battling anyone."

That's why you will NEVER be free. Collective force will NEVER go away. It needs to serve just ends.

"Freedom, liberty, and their common defense."

"Harriet Tubman said she freed a million slaves....and could have freed a million more if they had realized they were slaves."

blah blah. You are a slave, and you will ALWAYS be a slave because you think you'll be free once you get Anarchy, but in Anarchy slavery would be a kind fate for you. More than likely you'd simply be destroyed.

You are an illogical

crap spewing troll wasting peoples time.

typical non-argument coming

typical non-argument coming from the government loving libertarians. Too much non-aggression principle eh? Seriously. as a libertarian, make the case for a government. like making a case for the doctor to leave a little bit of the tumor in you when he does surgery. so simple. you dont argue for less coercion from the state, you argue for NONE

There were plenty below on this thread.

Reality is bigger than theory. There is no recipe for a perfect "small government" or "small contained tyranny." US Constitution was a good start. On the other hand, anarchism cannot answer simple questions about how anarchism works without believing in "new man" of the future.

Private arbitration and police is worthless for cases where collecting evidence or catching a suspect are too costly for a plaintiff. Private courts are useless for any dispute between foreign groups or countries. Private system is useless to enforce the punishment if a person has money to bribe, etc, etc. Anarchism in reality collapses into tyranny of private mafia that controls private courts and police.

Nonsense

An ancap does not attempt to predict how the market will solve problems. If individuals could do that governments might work. The ancap can only speculate. For example, if a "foreign entity" violates a contract and does not make amends, insurance would cover the loss. The insurance company would then report it to a ratings agency, and the violator of the contract would find doing business much more difficult. This is only speculation of course. The market may find an even more effective solution.

Here's a wonderful talk by Robert P. Murphy, entitled "The Market for Security". It addresses many of the concerns of statists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw

Infantilism all over

Wrong #1 - Austrian economics does predict how free market solve many current problems and also predict what new problems it will create (say, deflation, for example.)

Wrong #2 - Insurance business (as you dutifully parrot as a child) can not have an unlimited policy to be profitable. Say, you have a policy for crime protection with $1mil limit and $10,000 deductable. Somebody stole money from you. After three years of "investigations" you are informed that private police had spent all the money allowed by the insurance. "It was a difficult case that needed several detective to travel around the world", police reported.

Rothbard was good when he

followed in steps of von Mises and was instrumental in organizing Liberty Movement. But his had made mistakes both in his Libertarian analyses and politics as well as many false accusations.

Rothbard, who plagiarized many of Ayn Rand ideas, could not debate Randians (in fact, he could not debate face-to-face anybody - even when von Mises personally asked him to debate his seminar attendees.) As a cover for his character, Rothbard routinely made despariging comments about Ayn Rand and others. For example, Rothbard often mocked Ayn Rand sick accent or talked of them as being cultish. Funny how Rothbard forgot that von Mises and Albert Einstein talked with even thicker accent. The same tactic was used against Milton Friedman. Only Mises, Friedman and Stiegletz innitially attended Hayak's Mont Pelerin Society. Rothbard was understandably upset that nobody considered his anarchism seriousely, then or later.

Many misunderstand one important thing - when looking at a politician, look at his actions, not his words. However, when looking at a theoretical thinker or a writer, look at his thoughts rather than his personal actions. Therefore, I have no problem with Rothbard personal mistakes, only with his emphasys on personal mistakes or unrelated factoids of others. Sticking to ideas, not personalities was difficult for Rothbard and his followers when they could not address sustainability of an anarchist system.

Funny. Justin Raimondo made similar claim about Ayn

Book was written in 1920s by John T. Flynn.

The main character was Galt. I don't know. I've not read the book

Free includes debt-free!

That old smear?

So Rothbard flattered Rand (as was practically required of everybody who knew her) in a letter saying "you introduced me to the whole field of natural rights and natural law philosophy." Truth is his understanding of those things predates his reading of Rand. It was only after their split (because she was an enormous bitch, most notably demanding that his wife renounce her faith) that her cult began using this letter to attack him.

You buy

that spin? Ayn Rand would not demand anything from Rothbard or his wife. He was never a significant or important personality for her or his followers. But Ayn did personally argue with von Mises whose books she advertized.

Rothbard's wife made a mistake to argue with Ayn Rand about god but could not impress anybody with her mediocre reasoning. So JoAnn felt assaulted, her husband too (but mostly that his anarchism did not stick.)

deacon's picture

how can there be any

anarchists,or anarchy?
once they claim any law,statute or any other type of law,they aren't
anarchists anymore,as they now are playing the gov
if they band together,they have created a form of government
if they have taxation,then they have just done away with
anarchy
but this post could be applied to any gov on the planet
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence