65 votes

Resident Troll or Quality Control?

I cherish the DailyPaul as a place I can go to feel somewhat normal in a world where I constantly feel like an outsider due to my political an philisophical beliefs. However, as we get further from the election and there is much less "pro-Ron" talk, and much more conspiracy talk, my posts and my ideas have recieved a far more negative response than when I was simply singing the praise of Ron Paul to the Ron Paul choir.

If I disagree with a post about a conspiracy, I am labeled a troll, even when I am on topic, not inflammatory, and simply don't agree with the points of logic in the post. I'm constantly accused of being a neo-con who is just trying to subvert the movement, simply because I don't believe many of the conspiracies which are commonplace here.

It seems as though we are to the point here where if you disagree with anything, you are the enemy. I've posted, blogged, and commented on free market capitalism in the past, to a very positive response. This is fitting because like most of you, I assume I have a firm grasp on capitalism and liberty and thus, I supported Ron Paul and still support this movement. However, the conspiracies, whether they are true or not, do not in themselves diminish my view on liberty and free markets any more than they would diminish yours if you were mistaken about them.

I am not a troll because I don't believe a conspiracy. I'm not a neocon because I want more proof. I am simply a free market capitalist with a high standard for truth. You all have a high standard for truth from your government, which is rarely met. Doesn't it make sense to demand a higher standard when debating a conspiracy as well?

I cherish the Daily Paul and I apologize to anyone who thinks I've been a troll. In all honesty, my goal is simply to maintain a high standard of reason and logic, and not let emotion and speculation rather than truth, dominate our dialogue.




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I am skeptical of skeptics

Always demanding proof, and when proof is supplied, dismissing it based on "Logic" Using Occam's razor when convenient, yet summarily discarding it when it casts doubt.

Conspiracy Theories
Let's take the argument against conspiracies in general. The most common argument against any conspiracy is "It would be impossible for that many people to keep it a secret without it coming out"

Yet there have been many true conspiracies involving hundreds, if not thousands of people over the years. A couple of examples would be Hitler's 'Beer Hall Putsch', and Watergate. So that old tired argument is absolute rubbish, yet you hear it again and again.

Crop Circles
The common answer from skeptics across the world, including National Geographic I might add, state that crop circles are nothing more than a conspiracy of drunken/bored farmers. Yes, the very same skeptics who deride conspiracy theories actually claim the crop circles are explained by a conspiracy of drunk farmers making crop circles at night evidently over the past 200 years! (That is how long the phenomenon has been documented I believe)

Sea Monkey Theory
This cute little theory explains that a certain species of monkey emigrated from Africa to South America but at a time when the continents were not landlocked nor close together. So the Scientific Consensus is that the monkeys sailed to South America on rafts! (I only wish I was joking) Yet Thor Hyerdaal (sp?) was ridiculed for years for theorizing that Vikings could have visited North America. Most scientists still ridicule the idea that Egyptians, Phoenicians or Chinese ancient civilizations could have possibly visited the Americas as well.

So, they claim monkeys can do it, yet man could not. The logic of the scientific community and their scientific consensus is utter crap.

Logic has to actually be based on reason, far too often what is called logic is merely assumption, or on a faulty interpretation of facts.

I could go on and provide you with endless examples, but hopefully you get the point. Keep in mind, negative skepticism will generate a negative reaction. The majority of people just "believe" conspiracy theories. If you are attacking their pet theory, they will react as though you are attacking them. Apply some psychology and communicate carefully and clearly when you are dealing with conspiracy theorists.

I hope this will improve your skeptical mind! Positive discourse is always welcome at least to my own eye in any environ. Thanks for posting your thoughts!

Awww...

you are a paragon of "quality", reason, logic, truth and Spock-like control of emotions. You deserve a medal and perhaps a large statue in the town square for being so benevolent and patient with all of us easily-frightened cognitively-impaired moronic mental troglodytes.

Our comparatively less functional cognitive faculties often cause us to confuse those engaged in philanthropic missions of mercy to correct our flawed conclusions and the resulting irrational states of baseless fear and paranoia as elitist intolerant authoritarian pricks attempting to use generalized shame to silence differing opinions.

Please forgive us. We are just slow and can't help it. Perhaps you could be kind enough to assemble a team of your advanced brethren to help us identify and filter out defective results of our reduced critical thinking abilities in order to minimize the tragic and unnecessary embarrassment and harm we are causing to the Liberty movement.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your mercy and patience with us lesser beings...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Well..

What can you say..that was outstanding weebles, maybe a bit over the top in context, I do understand where the OP is coming from, but damn, that was out of the park..

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

It was...

fun! :D

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

For your reading enjoyment

Snakepit, while I have never reviled you for disagreeing with any of the "conspiracy" theory stuff, one thing I would suggest is doing some further reading. If you haven't read the following:

Shadows of Power, published by the JBS
https://www.jbs.org/shop-jbs/books/shop-jbs/books/shadows-of...

Creature from Jekyll Island, from G. Edward Griffin
http://www.realityzone.com/creature.html

The Naked Communist, Cleon Skousen
(no link, scan amazon)

The Naked Capitalist, which is a "critique" of Carol Quigley's revealing "Tragedy & Hope", also Cleon Skousen

If you haven't read all of these books, you owe it to yourself to do so. Seriously. And I'm not talking tinfoil hat stuff here, I'm talking well-thought, well-researched, non-fiction here.

Is there a conspiracy around every corner? No.
But one must familiarize one's self with verifiable conspiracies in order to a) not be fooled again b) weed out and train yourself to avoid "outlandish" theories. And yes, there are insane, whacky theories out there that even I reject.

Thank you.

Thank you, Snakepit. I have felt at a loss with all the conspiracy stuff lately. As a newer Paul/liberty devotee, I've followed up on so many of these because they're new to me. I've had a change of mind on so many of my ideas on policy and best-government that I wanted to check my previous assumptions on some of the more controversial ideas floating around here. I have not been impressed, and when I've entered into any discussions about such topics, I get very little but down votes and one-line comebacks.

I was preparing a speech last week for my Toastmasters club on applying healthy skepticism to new information. I'm going to share a few of the links that may be helpful for those interested in this topic of how we can best search for the truth with an open and skeptical mind to avoid wasting time and effort.

Here's a link to a video from The Skeptics Society's Baloney Detection Kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccHnE3QMUbE

Skeptoid Blog about some of the common logical fallacies popping on today: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4217

At study published in the British Journal of Social Psychology in 2011 "established an association between conspiracy beliefs and personal willingness to conspire." This study noted previous studies that link a tendency toward conspiratorial thinking with intelligence, creativity, a lingering sense of powerlessness.
http://www.academia.edu/1297450/Does_it_take_one_to_know_one...

The truth will set you free... Literally!

One cannot hide from facts. One of the biggest. Our country was founded on a conspiracy against George the III.

Was the formation of the Federal Reserve a Conspiracy?

Snakepit22, you are part of liberty movement and be proud of it!

I am too!

And yet, I am a proud Conspiracy Theorist.

I guess the formation of critical thinking early in my childhood is to blame. And a college course on Vietnam, instructed by a Vietnam Vet, didn't help suppress the eventuality, that one day, I would investigate conspiracies. He inspired it, with little known facts about South East Asia, The Golden Triangle and a small air cargo company known as Air America. Yet probably the biggest event that officially started during my lifetime and has provided the biggest inspiration is still going on today. It's the Drug War.

Was I, am I the enemy?
I took the Red Pill!

In 1988, I came across a High Times Magazine and my life changed. There among the pages of Cannabis Sativa and Indica was an article on a man running for President. His name was Ron Paul. As I said, and I believe others understand, when I say this again. My life changed.

Yet this counter-culture periodical was not the only socially conscience magazine of my early adult life, there was of course Penthouse and Hustler floating around. Hell I was an American Boy. But in among those pages of bodacious beauties were articles too. And to counter the social cons on porn, there were controversial political writings as a balance. This fact lead to the Icon status of Larry Flynt, the founder of Hustler and Bob Guccione, founder of Penthouse, into bidding wars for the most hostile stories on corruption in politics. They were going after D.C.

Have you seen "The People vs. Larry Flint"?

In the 90's a book known as "Dark Alliance: The CIA, the Contras and the Crack Cocaine Explosion" by Gary Webb of San Jose Mercury was released. You may have seen postings on the Daily Paul about it.

(please try and don't forget to donate!)

On Amazon, the introduction is as follows:
"Dark Alliance is a book that should be fiction, whose characters seem to come straight out of central casting: the international drug lord, Norwin Meneses; the Contra cocaine broker with an MBA in marketing, Danilo Blandon; and the illiterate teenager from the inner city who rises to become the king of crack, "Freeway" Ricky Ross. But unfortunately, these characters are real and their stories are true.

In August 1996, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Gary Webb stunned the world with a series of articles in the San Jose Mercury News reporting the results of his year-long investigation into the roots of the crack cocaine epidemic in America, specifically in Los Angeles. The series, titled "Dark Alliance," revealed that for the better part of a decade, a Bay Area drug ring sold tons of cocaine to Los Angeles street gangs and funneled millions in drug profits to the CIA-backed Nicaraguan Contras.

Now Gary Webb has pushed his investigation even further in his book, Dark Alliance: The CIA, The Contras, and the Crack Cocaine Explosion. Drawing from recently declassified documents, undercover DEA audio and videotapes that have never been publicly released, federal court testimony, and interviews, Webb demonstrates how our government knowingly allowed massive amounts of drugs and money to change hands at the expense of our communities."

http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Alliance-Contras-Cocaine-Explosio...

I am Bay Area native, lived less than hour away from San Jose, and the paper of course hit my door step during those days. CIA running crack through my state. Wow!

Funny thing, Congresswoman Maxine Waters(D) wrote the foreword for the book.
Sad thing, Gary Webb shot himself in the head... Twice.
So they say...

"Facing a barrage of calls from the media and the public, the Sacramento County Coroner's Office issued a statement Tuesday confirming that former investigative reporter Gary Webb committed suicide with two gunshots to the head."

http://web.archive.org/web/20080328003346/http://dwb.sacbee....

Ad nauseam, throughout the history of Daily Paul, there have been many postings about the book "The Creature from Jekyll Island" and its author G. Edward Griffin. Any fan of the Daily Paul and Capitalism would definitely have this book wouldn't they? A book about the history of the FED?

Have you read it?

How about Cleon Skousen's book "The Naked Capitalist"?
And no, it's not full of pics from porn mags.

Also, another oldie but goody is G. Edward Griffin's investigative presentation from 1969, "The Capitalist Conspiracy".

Have you seen it?

If you have not seen it, you can at this link below. If you have time to open your mind for a couple of hours. Any fan of Dr. Paul and the Daily Paul will enjoy it.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-capitalist-conspiracy/

Now I ask you, was the formation of the Federal Reserve a conspiracy?

And truly, who is a Capitalist Conspirator?
And who is a Conspiracy Theorist?

Don't give up on your positions and beliefs, yet please remember...

There is no Left vs. Right, only Tyranny vs. Freedom!

Absolutely Brilliant!

You totally "Good Will Huntinged" him.

If you haven't yet, you should pick up some Misses and Hayek. It's some good stuff.

It's Not About Apples - It's About Liberty

We cannot afford to lose good people or divide the movement because big money owns the media. Alex Jones did say it best to para-phrase "Our country has been taking over by a group of banking oligarchs who have worked for many years to destroy the United States from within, while at the same time, defraud the American people of everything they own."

Whether one chooses to believe it or not is their free choice. But to take the approach conspiracies do not exist is childish to say the least.

And yes Mises and Hayek are great.

And remember, Don't Steal,,, Government Doesn't Like Competition.

The ones that see

The ones that see conspiracies in everything are actually a very loud minority in our movement. There's a certain type of person that is very hipster, emo, and counterproductive. They are the very few that will still be talking about sandy hook being an inside job in 20 years.

You are not alone

We're just a bit quieter there's days. The nut bags haven't won, it's just annoying to keep debunking and discrediting things like strawpeople ideas.

I read some of the conspiracy

topics but I rarely comment whether I may agree or not. Simply to avoid the ad hominem attacks that soon follow.

Have you heard the term "don't feed the trolls?"

Best post on this topic.

Thanks I agree with you totally.

Lord Acton, Lord Chief Justice of England, 1875 - "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the People v. The Banks."

I'm in complete agreement

I'm in complete agreement with you. I wouldn't ever direct anyone thinking of supporting Ron Paul candidates to this website now. Dr. Paul himself would be embarrassed by the kind of conspiracy nonsense that is promoted on this website. I'm seriously one "false flag" article away from removing this website from my RSS feed.

Keep you head in sand.

Or open your mind. It's up to you. But if you could secure liberty in the infowar, rather than by bullet, wouldn't you?

Great Post!

Great Post! I don't post or comment much, but I've been saying similar things for a while. Frankly, I'm tired of being lumped in with conspiracy theorists. Its' time for a dose of skepticism and empricisim...I guess that makes me a neocon or sockpuppet.

Speak up then! Post away!

Communication is the best way to liberty.

Hey a ding! Communication is not the best way to liberty?

A ding and no comment. I take it this person prefers the smell blood, feces and rotting flesh to that of simple human interaction communicating under freewill. Because that's what you get with war, the smell of death.

Sad, then what are you here for if not to communicate?

Thank you for speaking out

Thanks for speaking up Snakepit. I was starting to feel like I was the only one with that problem. I've been getting worried that most of the liberty movement was driven by conspiracy theories or Alex Jones's cult of personality. If true, then people may who lose faith in the theories or Alex Jones will likely desert the movement. I'm also concerned that they might try to ban or restrict things that I cherish like food science or vaccines. When I've tried to get people to agree to let people who want to eat or sell GMO's to still do so, I got down-voted and called a NWO operative.

Wow....

Alex Jones and the owner of GCN, Ted Anderson, are among the many founders of liberty movement!

Stop drinking the fluoridated water and maybe you'll comprehend what's bad in vaccines.

Actually...

The liberty movement has been around since before Alex Jones was even born. Libertarianism itself was founded as coherent philosophy by John Stuart Mill. The movement was originally spawned by three women in the aftermath of the New Deal. Read Brian Doherty's book, "Radicals for Capitalism: A Free-wheeling History of the Libertarian Movement" if you want to know more.

Alex Jones didn't found

Alex Jones didn't found anything, he hitched his cart to Ron Paul, that's the only way he would get more than his 12 loyal conspiracy theorists.

For Liberty!

Is fabricating history...

one of your hobbies or something?

Ron Paul began appearing on Alex Jones show in the mid-90's. By 2001 due to Alex's coverage of and critical analysis of government actions like Ruby Ridge and Waco, AJ had become syndicated on 100 radio stations and had no rivals as the #1 radio show among those in the Patriot and Liberty movement. Due to Ron Paul's appearances and Ron's 1988 candidacy on the Libertarian Party ticket, Alex also had grown a significant listenership among libertarians.

Going into 2007, Ron Paul was still an obscure unknown congressman from Texas. Hence the "Who is Ron Paul?" and "Google Ron Paul" memes during the 2008 campaign. Ron Paul's single largest platform was Alex Jones' show.

Alex was one of the small circle of friends and family that convinced Ron to run. And it was the Alex Jones Show that first started aggressively promoting his candidacy. I was one of the first 100 contributors to Ron's 2008 campaign because I was in the habit of listening to AJ on shortwave radio and happened to catch his very first announcement of Ron's candidacy. I didn't donate because I thought Ron had a chance. I donated on principle because here was this elected official confidently articulating a philosophy of governance that closely matched the Jeffersonian and anti-Federalist ideals I had come to embrace.

To say that "Alex Jones didn't found anything" is ahistorical and not factual. Alex Jones, and his audience of patriots, jeffersonians, Old Rightists, libertarians and 9/11 truthers launched Ron Paul's 2008 campaign and got it off the ground. And without Alex Jones' efforts Daily Paul might not even exist.

You are just fabricating a convenient history to suit your current agenda...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

The more I've read about Alex Jones, the more disgusted I am

Definitely. Alex Jones got his start in radio by trying to get people to persecute people who worshipped other Gods than he did by saying that they sacrificed human babies.

Jefferson's picture

Actually

he "got his start" by going down to the public access tv network and working for free for years, while getting ridiculed most of the time.
I know, because one of my good friends was his original cameraman and producer. He also broke into Bohemian Grove with AJ and saw the creepy "ceremony" with his own eyes.
I don't defend everything AJ does or says, but I also don't care for people spreading misinformation. I hold you and myself to the same standards as I do AJ or anyone else.

"Beware the crusader" no matter who they are.

we should make a rule against

we should make a rule against posting about yourself

Ventura 2012

Hey man, you're not alone

Hey man, you're not alone here.... lots of us have been getting this treatment. Lots of us have quit posting all together. I've not given up hope yet. I'm glad you posted this.

Continue to speak up!

As they say, no two people agree 100% of the time. But historical fact is historical fact. If someone says, in 1978 the House Select Committee on Assassinations stated the JFK assassination was the result of a conspiracy, is that incorrect?

And as they say, the truth can be hard to accept.

Just because some things are

Just because some things are conspiracies doesn't mean everything is.