13 votes

Ok so someone smarter than me explain: Is the economy going to collapse because of gold (or lack thereof)?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-15/germany-prepares-re...

and

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-17/germanys-gold-repat...

I just read these articles and wanted your opinion. As you all know (probably better than I), Germany wants some of their gold back from the Fed and all of it back from France.

"they will repatriate 674 metric tons of their total 3,391 metric ton gold reserves from vaults in Paris and New York to restore public confidence in the safety of Germany’s gold reserves."

The US and France both say "we can only give you a little at a time over the next 7 years"

To me, this means they simply don't have it. So where is it? And the stuff they do have, is it real bars or filled with tungsten? If more countries get nervous, will there be a run on the Fed? And when the fed stands there with it's pockets turned inside out, is WWIII inevitable?

I also hear that the US has pledged to help France with a al-Qaida problem in Mali(Africa). Did you know Mali is the third largest gold producer in Africa? So tell me, is al-Qaida our only interest in Mali?

http://news.yahoo.com/us-pledges-help-france-against-al-qaed...

Is it the lack of gold in the Federal Reserve going to be what causes world wide collapse? And just who are the thieves who pocketed all that gold? They need to go through Nuremburg like trials. And so this is why they won't allow a full audit at the federal reserve?

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If We Have Any Gold?

From what little I know, there is a question of whether:
1. There is any gold in Ft. Knox or the NY Federal Reserve vaults?
2. If there is, does it belong to us or has it been sold or loaned out to foreign banks or nations?

Either way, that combined with the continued printing of US Dollars without the gold, silver or anything of value to back them up, continues to devalue the US Dollar and will eventually cause the US Dollar to collapse. Add in the continual trillion dollar yearly deficits and you have a US federal gov't bankruptcy coming sometime this decade. With most US states, counties and cities not far behind.

Federal Reserve crashes the economy to transfer wealth.

DOW's Performance Since 1900
http://pricedingold.com/dow-jones-industrials/

GDP: US Gross Domestic Product, from 1930
http://pricedingold.com/us-gdp/

Since 2000, about 1/3 of the phony economy has disappeared.

I'm forever blowing bubbles. [The story of the Fed?]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_Forever_Blowing_Bubbles
Verse 1
I'm dreaming dreams,
I'm scheming schemes,
I'm building castles high.
They're born anew,
Their days are few,
Just like a sweet butterfly.
And as the daylight is dawning,
They come again in the morning.
Chorus
I'm forever blowing bubbles,
Pretty bubbles in the air,
They fly so high,
Nearly reach the sky,
Then like my dreams,
They fade and die.
Fortune's always hiding,
I've looked everywhere,
I'm forever blowing bubbles,
Pretty bubbles in the air.

Verse 2
When cattle creep,
When I'm asleep,
To lands of hope I stray.
Then at daybreak,
When I awake,
My bluebird flutters away.
Happiness new seemed so near me,
Happiness come forth and heal me.

Free includes debt-free!

BOOM!

Hit the nail on the head: "So tell me, is al-Qaida our only interest in Mali?" And what was the true motivation for Obama usurping Congress to engage Libya? What happened to their gold reserves? Look into Project Hammer, if you haven't come across it yet.

YES !

The Chinese are accumulating Gold at all levels, at some point in the future they will back their money with Gold, which will be the signal that the U.S. dollar is no longer the world's only international settlement money in world trade.

beesting

More likely...

the Chinese govt will use the gold for international transactions with other nation's governments and let the domestic currency float as fiat. Making the domestic currency redeemable in gold would hinder the govts ability to finance domestic spending and projects. And modern govts really really hate physical restrictions on spending... :p

UPDATE: To whoever voted me down, please share why? I merely described what ALL modern govts do. They pile up gold reserves for use in finance between other national govts and provide a fiat currency to their citizens for domestic economic activity. It's just the way it is... :)

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Voted you up

You are dead on.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

Mike paints and

Mike paints and understandable picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj2s6vzErqY

Free includes debt-free!

this economy won't collapse until there is a better one

This economy will be harvested every decade or so, but it's the strongest right now.

Think of a collapse like a bear... the USA merely needs to outrun other economies.

???

:\

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

No...

money doesn't work that way. In a free market the quantity of money will adjust value to match demand.

What will collapse the economy is counterfeiting worthless paper money by the Govt to pay for fraud and war without an underlying expansion of real economic activity...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Yes, I think it gets confusing

when it is stated that the value of gold has "gone up" when it is really the purchasing power of the dollar that has gone down...

The economy is going to

The economy is going to collapse because of debt. It has nothing to do with gold. Those who have the Gold and Silver will get through the collapse much easier then those who do not have any.

no collapse -people still have to eat

The bubbles will continue but I'll guess eventually we have another Bretton Woods to kick the can down the road another 40 years..

The Fed has been printing money for 100 years as have other central banks -there's much much more confidence in the dollar than say the Yuan which isn't even in the same ballpark as the US.

Europe and Japan will never be major economic powers without a strong military. We prop them up by paying for their defense -we should charge. Canada, Austrailia, United Kingdom are all way too small to become reserve currencies.

Government is supposed to protect our freedom, our property, our privacy, not invade it. Ron Paul 2007

The debt is all fake. Like Iceland we could forgive & forget.

The problem is the USA is a globalist-plantation for the evil elite parasites and their Goldman sachs-like bagmen.

People can't wrap their head around the idea that the gravy train is over and all that funny green paper is just imagined value. So the USA will collapse on purpose as it was MADE and SET-UP to. But it won't be rebuilt better because people are living paycheck to paycheck and worship imaginary wealth and hype.

My brother who makes over $100k as an executive told me, 'We are coming out of a recession as the US becomes more of a service-based economy.' That's literally what they tell their peons.

They have no understanding of economics, taxes, debt, manufacturing, or the fact we went from manufacturing to service, service to debt based, and the next phase is balkanization and gutting.

================================
Fight the Ron Paul blackout on the Daily Paul (now 'P AU L'), put his removed poster back as your avatar:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9ir62bp8nshv83m

The Economy is Going to Collapse. Period.

There's no avoiding the collapse of the economy, that is just a matter of when and how bad it will affect people when it does.

I think that exposing the vast shortages of gold would hurry it along. The quicker it comes down, the more off guard those in control will be.

few random thoughts...

I think the timeframe they've outlined (7 years to move the gold, when Chavez got his in just a couple months) is largely due to the rehypothecation issue. If in fact the gold has been leased and sold out many times over (10 to 100x depending on who you read), then it's quite possible they need to unwind those deals to line up enough physical gold. If they had to do that all at once... you'd see the price of paper gold (and silver) and PHYSICAL gold and silver decouple, probably dramatically. That would IMMEDIATELY be a "canary in the coal mind dropping dead" for many, many folks who watch the markets, and runs the risk of shattering confidence in the fiat Ponzi as it happens. So they want to build up the physical over time slowly, so they can buy it "cheaper" and not raise too many red flags.

Will Germany (and the German people) go for that? That remains to be seen.

A few other interesting data points popping up recently include the MASSIVE spike in sales for Silver and Gold eagles in Jan 2013, to the point that ASEs are "sold out" and the Mint will not be selling more until 28 Jan! That means they started selling late (the 7th of Jan), and in 9 days have sold almost as much as the entire MONTH of Jan last year! They were on a pace to likely outsell the YEARLY volume of silver for every year prior to 2008... and suddenly it's "all stop", premimums are up a lot for most sellers, stock is low or out, and sales are frozen until end of month. Either there is a massive physical shortage that's got the mint squeezed, OR they are purposefully stopping sales so as not to have another "canary" moment when silver sales spike so much along with gold. Either way, it's very VERY interesting to see this happening now.

Oh, and I think it was the Dutch that are also looking to move their gold stores back to local vaults as well. Story came out just after the German one did, but I didn't see it picked up anywhere besides ZH and some silver stacker sites.

What I still wonder is:

Since we all know there is very little (if any) actual printing of additonal currency units going on...what will happen that forces the electronic money to be turned into actual paper money and put into circulation? Without the new physical currency units being put into circulation, can't inflation and/or hyperinflation be held at bay for an indefinite period?

To answer your question with

To answer your question with a single word; No. Digital printing -so to speak- is just as destructive as actual paper printing; it still changes the ratio between goods available and currency available. The only reason we haven't seen high inflation as of yet is due to the US exporting our inflation: because every nation needs to hold some US dollars due to it being the reserve currency for trading, so they are holding some of our inflation out of our system.

Also, all of those troops we got stationed all over the world; they get paid in US currency and then that currency gets converted to the local currency and then those troops spend that money in the host countries, and the troops are used to export even more inflation. The bases which we hold overseas, also allow us to export some inflation, because we have to pay a lease on those properties, and we have to pay utilities on those porperties; all of that money is in US dollars which then gets converted just like the salaries of the troops.

Plus, while the US dollar may be a troubled currency, the slave-like nature of Americans gives other nations confidence that the US dollar is still better than every other currency available to store their wealth in.

That all makes sense and is good info Philosopher

it sure provides a logical reason why there are so many bases all over the globe and why we remain endlessly at war. You didn't mention if TPTB have any control over when inflation comes home?

And, as HVACTech mentioned below, why can't trillions of the electronic money just be deleted...once The Fed has transferred legal ownership to itself of all of the real estate from the banks and other lending institutions and/or once they jeanie is out of the bottle?

If that electronic money never enters circulation I don't understand how it can create inflation.

Electronic Promissory Notes....

and we are exporting them.....
somehow this sounds like a game of musical chairs to me....

somewhere I read that this is actually a war tactic. the fictitious wealth is used to buy real assets right out from underneath the people.

if most of our "money" today is in the electronic form....

then it would make sense to me that they can just "delete" it out of existence. poof!
and if it is also only backed by peoples confidence in this system.....
then to me it would seem that they can play this game as long as the people remain stupid.
it is looking like P T Barnum was right.
:(

The economy will...

The economy will collapse because there is not as much wealth as people have been told. There is no wealth in the SS trust fund, just a pile of worthless IOUs. Many investments that are supposed to be backed by real tangible assets are not really backed at all, or are under collateralized like the housing market was and is. The various pensions that people thought they could rely upon are, in many cases, underfunded to the point that the baby boomers will consume what little is there long before they get what is due to them. That is why there is a move afoot to raise the retirement age to 70 years. The SS administration can extract more $ for longer and people will live a shorter time relying upon SS. The same holds for private pensions.

What I don't understand is why any entity would continue buying treasury notes. Fort Knox is likely empty of has but a tiny percentage of the gold most think is supposed to be there. My fear is that Uncle Sam has mortgaged huge parcels of acreage in the western part of the USA as collateral so that the Chinese etc. will continue to lend us money. In the alternative, China's leaders know that if the USA goes down, so will China and the USA is holding China's leaders hostage, if you will, demanding more loans so that China's economy will not collapse.

You bring up a number of good questions and we don't have

all the answers.

-I think fiat inflation can be considered as an external input for your purposes at this time.

-We understand that all of the gold "in Fort Knox" is held by the Federal Reserve to collateralize our debt to the Fed itself. That's at least 40 year old news.

-Somewhere at some points the Fed has listed gold on it's balance sheets, good luck finding it.

-The audit point remains: we have no idea if there is any gold in Fort Knox or how much of it there might be and what portions of it are held in various regional Fed depositories. Or even what they do with it. They move it around quite a bit.

-No the economy won't collapse for lack of gold, it's a fiat system as it has been for some time. Certain institutions might fail if they don't have the gold they say they do. This will cause MASSIVE upward pressure on gold and silver, possibly platinum and palladium too. Big investors dependent on paper metal will be wiped out. However the metal exchanges will normalize, they have to. Holders of physical metal will be smiling from ear to ear.

-All we really have to understand here is CONFIDENCE IN THE UNDERLYING ECONOMY is disappearing rapidly and our major creditors are all trying to extract as much solid value on their investments as they can, while they can. The simple facts are:

1. We're deep in debt.
2. Our rate of debt accumulation is ACCELERATING RAPIDLY.
3. We have absolutely nothing resembling a real plan to deal with any present or future debt.
4. We no longer have the CAPABILITY to dig ourselves out by work, we're in a global marketplace of labor now and we're all basically worth minimum wage. Asia is the new manufacturing center but we'll see moves into Africa in this decade.

Did you know that scrap metal is our close second to top export to China? The Chinese are also buying rice this year in huge quantities, far in excess of 1-3 year needs. See they are already buying all the gold they can get their hands on so they are redeeming debt in rice.

Anyways, to bring it back to inflation, if institutions fail cause of balance sheet buggery or the paper metal market folding they will get bailed out as usual and this will be inflationary. The most likely scenario and the reason everybody wants gold is we WILL try inflating our way out of debt to whatever extent we can.

"Normal people" are basically now part of a massive poverty class, the effects just haven't fully manifested, but we'll be developing barter-oriented trade like never before. The age of black-market EVERYTHING is at hand. Currency is gonna be something you want to immediately spend into something you can use.

There is nothing strange about having a bar of soap in your right pocket, it's just what's happening.

The economy will collapse because they want it to.

There are many aspects to the collapse of our way of life and to try to say "this is why" in one area is tough. The new game on Wall Street is playing with food prices the way they play with gold prices. If that does not give you chills, you may not know enough about gold price manipulation... lol! The price of gold matters very little to the average American, even goldbugs, in their day to day affairs. My prediction is that the day that "Bob the Electrician" orders some silver wire and can't get it, the silver shortage will finally be exposed. Until that day, there's no impact on the "economy." Once that day comes, it could get ugly very, very quickly. Most people content to buy paper silver or gold are going to be just as content to never see it until it is just too late. They can mesmerize folks with paper fantasies about their precious metals, but the paper food is going to be harder to hide.
I know I go on about silver, and I still encourage people to buy all they can. What you have, the military industrial complex does not. Stack up! However, I believe with all my heart that it will take a famine for the people to finally realize they have become too removed from their food sources. We have record numbers on food stamps already, enabling JPMorgan to profit off our most destitute neighbors. I am not wild about entitlements, but I am much less fond of JPMorgan. So, with the banksters and Monsanto crushing our food chain, I suspect it will be famine that crashes the economy. Stack silver, and have some land, water and heirloom seed.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

Yes

You are the gold.

You are the value in this economy. Your innate skills, your innate will to live, work and play are the gold.

Green paper, PM's such as gold, silver and platinum are the financial "bullet proof vest" purposed with economically protecting YOU.

Any of these protections implemented incorrectly will fail.

Any solution that does not effectively protect your property, the fruit of your labor and your life is wrong.

The collapse will occur because the PTB have failed you.

The economy will not collapse

The economy will not collapse because of gold, although that may very well be an excuse the MSM will give when the fiat bubble bursts.

The economy will collapse because the US dollar is a paper/digital promise that cannot be paid. Our "leaders" have made 16 trillion promises they can't keep and are increasing this at an exponential rate. As RP said, we are well beyond the fiscal cliff, there is no going back.

"We can guarnatee cash payments as far out as needed, but we cannot guarantee their purchasing power." -alan greenspan on social security.

The bubble we are in now, is the dollar bubble, the fiat currency bubble. Everyone is forced to use it, everyone has it, and because more promises for it have been made than can be filled by those who administer it, the only solution is to type more promises into the computer. In the Great Depression, no one had money. In the coming Greatest Depression, everyone will have currency but it won't be worth anything.

I can't time this because the timing is dependent on when people wake up to the worthlessness of their "money". When this happens, its over.

The next paradigm will value physical assents and productive assets, once the current paradigm of financialization and phoney wealth ends.

Collapse will happen with loss of faith, not loss of gold

The only thing giving the dollar value is faith that it can be used to buy something. The total number of dollars have been increasing dramatically. So law of supply and demand indicates increased supply of dollars will cause value of the dollar to plummet if demand falls. When there is loss of faith in the dollar, demand will fall as people seek to trade dollars for anything that has real value: gold, silver, food, bullets, etc. When that happens en masse, bond prices will fall, interest rates will spike up, the housing market will then crash, banks will fail due to worthless low interest loans, prices of everything will skyrocket, people with cash savings and fixed interest investments will be wiped out....this is the financial collapse of Biblical proportions that everyone appearing on the Doomsday Preppers show are worried about.

The fact that Germany wants their gold back suggests that they are losing faith in their central bank partners. If there is a mass exodus out of paper and into holding real assets, the U.S. economy will be destroyed.

Disclaimer: I'm probably not smarter than you, and most everything I learned about economics came from the internet.

We all want progress, but if you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.

-C. S. Lewis

It's in "deep storage".

I.e. deep in mines, not mined yet!

Ill Say no

Because I don't think gold is holding Americas economany together; now I could be completely wrong but ill still add my 2 cents in. I believe the only thing holding Americas econonamy togethor right now is the OPEC agreement and the fact that its the reserve currency, without foreign backing to your dollar then the system would come crashing down.

The whole "Germany wants their gold back" to me means that gold will be harder to acquire in the next little while, and also that shit could get heat if they don't give their gold back.