26 votes

Peaceful Civil Disobedience

"I strongly believe in the principle of peaceful civil disobedience. It is one way that the impulse of liberty checks the powerful." - Ron Paul Liberty Defined

What are your thoughts on peaceful civil disobedience?

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not just government

But we can refuse to go along with media, and quasi-governmental enterprises too. I'd like to see a major liberty assault (peaceful) on major media.

civil disobedience =

just say NO to government. after careful thought and research, if "it" goes against your wishes, just say no.(or phuque off)

This is the way

You consent or not to government. Government by consent of the people? Civil disobedience means: no consent.

The key element of making this successful is organization. The people, or the minority, require organization so that civil disobedience is consistent. This makes enforcement too difficult for the state.

It's also cultural. The people have to be willing to put up with civil disobedience, to acknowledge it as a proper check on government.

Imagine, people opposing civil disobedience - not because of disagreement on an issue - but because of state worship. This is where self-government goes to die.

Here's another, better, name for 'civil disobedience': POPULAR NULLIFICATION. The states can only nullify unconstitutional federal laws, because states are legal entities bound in compact, which is the US constitution. The people have NO such obligation to the state.

If a law is unjust and contravenes natural rights, a people can 'nullify' it but refusing to obey. Then it becomes a matter of how much money the state will spend to punish people who don't want to follow the law.

If everyone who smoked marijuana secretly came out and smoked openly, there wouldn't be enough jails to hold everyone (they'd try). But imagine healthcare!! Or taxes!!! If enough people came out and refused to pay? Think about it (I'm just saying more people pay taxes than smoke).

No.7's picture

Popular nullification

I like everything about the words popular nullification.

If there were a way to popularize refusing to pay taxes I can see how that could change the world. That would be crazy hard to pull off though. I know I'm paying my taxes this year, and next year.... lol

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

Well, that's the thing

Eventually, if we discovered that *what do you know* there happen to be services that we like which government provides, then we might want to pay taxes.

The government would collect taxes in those small amounts where it's just too inconvenient to try and resist. Combine that with a sense on the part of the public (a legitimate feeling, not coerced by IRS fines and threats) of "gee, I kinda am okay with this amount of tax for what it provides anyway" and you have an equilibrium level of taxation in society.

If taxes are too high, or to easy to dodge, then people will not pay them.

This requires organization though.

Simple. Form and join a Militia.

Such as the Well Regulated and Armed Milita (WRAM). Pot smokers have always been participating in civil disobediance. The state said "do this" and they said no.

Time to say no.

Denise B's picture

I think that peaceful

civil disobedience can be very effective in implementing change; however, for it to have a maximum effect, you need numbers. Just look at the gun issue alone....What if the vast majority of gun owners (potentially millions of people) just decided that rather than come out shooting if gun confiscation were to occur, they just decided to hide their guns and refuse to comply? What would happen to our legal system if all of a sudden they tried to run 20,000,000 people through the system who hid their guns and refused to give them up, and how many juries do you think would be willing to put someone in jail for this reason? It would overload and paralyze the court system. The same would be true of the income tax if you could get millions of people on the same page.

So, yes, civil disobedience could be very, very effective, but you would have to find a way to get a lot of people on the same page at the same time. Possible?....idk?

No.7's picture

I doubt many people will "come out shooting" at confiscators

I certainly will never just "come out shooting" at anyone, ever. The only time to fire a gun at someone is if that person presents a clear and present danger to your or another's life.

I will resist gun confiscation in every peaceful way possible, but I will not allow my primary and only adequate means of defense to be taken from me. Like I and so many others have said, from my cold dead hands!

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

Follow this link

http://www.dailypaul.com/271617/how-the-state-plans-to-turn-...
This has the potential to be huge.

If not us than who?

I'd rather die standing up

I'd rather die standing up than beg on my knee's to quote a famous quote.

There is no Left or Right -- there is only freedom or tyranny. Everything else is an illusion, an obfuscation to keep you confused and silent as the world burns around you." - Philip Brennan

"Invest only in things that you can stand in front of and pr

I don't buy it.

When the elite want the world dead and have plenty of sinister weapons to get it done, simple non-violent disobedience is going to do nothing but make you dead. They aren't like the crickets in "A Bug's Life" who fear awakening. They will destroy everything including themselves if they can't have their way.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

No.7's picture

So should we give them their way

or should we stand up, speak out, and resist the tyranny?

I would rather die a free man resisting tyranny than a slave obeying a marxist king

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

Peaceful civil disobedience

Peaceful civil disobedience,other than the ballot box, is the only way to get change without major bloodshed -- posssibly thousands killed, if not millions. An armed rebellion in the US by the people in this day and age would be pure folly regardless of the circumstances. The government will not have to pry my assault rifle from my cold dead hands because I sold it already.

Agreed

Peaceful civil disobedience is the only way forward. Too many people in the Liberty movement are too quick to jump to the "cold head hands" conclusion and it hurts us.

No number of "assault weapons" you own will hold off a tank brigade and your high powered optic rifle is not bringing down an attack helicopter. The days of armed rebellion have long passed, remember the free people at Wacco had LOTS of guns. The government has a monopoly on the use of force and they are waiting for the itchy few us to do something stupid so they can crack the whip hardcore.

We will never change the world by stocking our basement with black rifles before the ban, but imagine what would happen if all of us refused to file federal taxes. Would they be able to arrest all of us?

You have never read much on

You have never read much on guerilla warfare have you? That's what won the American Revolution against the strongest army at that time, besides the French helping us. Peaceful disobedience is a first priority, but there has to be an armed resistance if all else fails, hence the reasoning for the 2nd amendment.

No.7's picture

I still say "from my cold dead hands"

I will not turn in or register a firearm. I will not start violence, but it will not be taken from me alive. Pledging to never surrender our weapons alive doesn't hurt the movement in my eyes. Charlton Heston said it for years, don't give up your primary means to defense ever.

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

Civil disobedience...

...is most effective when the population cannot vote: e.g. India under the Raj. It works under these conditions because it is an expression of the popular will, which government have a hard time resisting. But, in a country with elections, as in the US, election results are billed as the preeminent expression of the popular will, while acts of civil disobedience, by comparison, look like expressions of the will of some minority or faction. Civil disobedience in a democracy is only going to be decisive if it's on a really massive scale, with a really large proportion of the population participating: but then, if you have a large proportion of the population willing to engage in civil disobedience, you probably have the votes to win elections, so it's a moot point.

I see value in civil disobedience in modern America as a corollary of electoral politics (e.g. create headlines through civil disobedience which propel pro-liberty candidates into office) but not as a replacement for electoral politics - opting for civil disobedience instead of electoral politics would be a serious strategic error IMO.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

No.7's picture

How about the Civil Rights Movement

You make a good point, civil disobedience is mostly just asking for trouble in America

The best example I can draw to America is the Civil Rights Movement. The stories of Rosa Parks and the cafe sit-ins.

I am in no way comparing what Libertarians face nearly as serious as the horrible things African Americans had to face during the Civil Rights Movement.

Do you think peaceful civil disobedience helped the Civil Rights Movement? If so, could peaceful civil disobedience help the Individual Rights Movement deliver a nation from collectivism?

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

The mastermind of civil disobedience

is Gene Sharp. He wrote "From Dictatorship to Democracy". His strategy has been used throughout the Middle east (with the help of the CIA of course) to start civil unrest and take down governments.

I saw a documentary on it recently but can't remember which one.

This is a NY Times article on him...

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/world/middleeast/17sharp....

No.7's picture

Awesome article

Thanks for sharing, I'll definitely read up on Gene Sharp.

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

in the spring of 07.

it blew me away when I saw a man speaking of this on the floor of the house.
summer is my busy season and could not revisit it until fall.
each of us can only do what he or she can do.
answering your questions on a public forum would be...
disingenuous at best.
you should delete this thread.

Cmon now

HVAC, Why the negativity? You are one of my respected bloggers on this site. Were you in a bad mood when you wrote that?

The founders would be ashamed at us for what we are putting up with.

Yes, and I have felt bad about it and unsure what to do.

the guy is probably legit and even a bright young star perhaps...
the question, just struck me as openly asking how to cheat. bad idea.
while it would be bad if I dimmed his Liberty fire... it would be worse if someone got sucker punched for answering the question.

I did post this today, it was in response in a way...

http://www.dailypaul.com/271247/truth-or-denial-in-the-age-o...

but I guess it was too long of a read or nobody liked it.. not sure. this is from the article.

Commit to Detachment

It’s very simple knowing what to do. Arm yourself with Truth and Love and detach from the Lie any and every way you can. Any compromise is going to cost more than it ever did before. As the wind picks up even the smallest bit of debris becomes increasingly hazardous. Same with attachments. The smallest thing can bring us down if we’re off guard and playing too near to the snare of the matrix.

Think about that.

but these thoughts also elicit internal struggles for me.
peace. and thanks for the compliment.

No.7's picture

Justified fear or paranoid delusions?

I understand where you're coming from. I too fear that one day I will be declared a terrorist for Libertarian ideas and posts online. My question to myself and to you is; is this fear justified or our paranoid delusions?

Hearing our President say "Individual freedoms must be protected by COLLECTIVE action" today struck fear in me. This, along with he 23 executive orders, the lies that "This decade of war is ending and This economy is recovering", Obama telling Russia "I'll have more flexibility when I get my 4 more years", Fast&Furious, and the demonizing of gun ownership(IMO the first primary lesson in self reliance) seems to me plenty of reason to justify the fears that most of us share. However, many others may call these thoughts paranoid delusions.

This being said, I believe these justified fears are proof that we live under tyranny. The idea that I should delete this post, then my doing so and recently undoing so, proves (at least to me) that our current system of Government is tyranny. You basically told me above "be careful what you say, Big Brother is watching you". Is this what a free man would say? Do I truly have the right to write what I wish?

What are citizens to do when the American Government is out to destroy the American way of life, when Government officials are declaring themselves to be enemies of the Constitution they all swore oath to? I choose to speak out.

I will speak out for Liberty, this is my reaction and my current solution. If you have a better solution, please share. I encourage you to also speak out, often. It is of the utmost importance that others hear what people like you and I have to say for we may not get a chance to speak out in the near future. While the internet makes it easier for the feds to spy on us, it also makes it easier for us to win. Imagine where the rEVOLution would be without internet technology. The internet is our ally even though it may be used against you.

Face it, if anyone is getting popped because of their internet activity then 75% of the DP is on that list and we're all getting it. I would rather die a free man resisting tyranny obeying God than a slave obediently serving a marxist king.

Peace and Love HVACTech,
Old No. 7
J.D.

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

I will have to quote our own mikelawson here.

"if you aren't on a government list already, you aren't trying hard enough"
or something close to that, this was back in 08 just before the R4R.
so, it comes down to this, we need you man. in fact, the whole friggin planet needs you. Liberty will live or die hard right here on this soil.
there are many answers to your OP. many would be foolish to announce. that was all I was thinking. it would be like telling the gate keeper where the holes in the fence were.
many effective methods are not glorious at all.
I continue to post and support this place, knowing full well that I am not very well liked as well as the risks involved.
it is a form of peaceful civil disobedience.
I am going to need to be less active for a time. I need to get back to running my business.

Ken

No.7's picture

Very True, Thanks

Just being here is peaceful civil disobedience.

Thanks for the insight

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

front page topic. message

front page topic.

message received, over and out.

No.7's picture

Why? I'm entertaining a virtuous idea

Peaceful civil disobedience, I do not wish to cause trouble but state my Constitutional Right to petition Government for a redress of grievances.

Thomas Jefferson said "Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God"

What's wrong with that?

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson

Depends on what you mean by "peaceful"...

Peaceful demonstration at every state capital for our 2nd amendment rights (these allow open carry)

https://www.facebook.com/events/406312512782872/

I would not engage in any form of "peaceful protest" unless I was prepared to back it up by some form of violence.

No.7's picture

No violence except for personal protection

I'm not carrying on the state capitol and I honestly feel safe not carrying to a 2nd Amendment rally. I'll gladly go to the rally but I don't want to lose my carry permit for carrying on federal property. Even though the supreme court says in precedent that a state cannot issue a license/and-or/fee for a Constitutional Right in Murdock V Pennsylvania and another precedent in Norton V Shelby County saying that unconstitutional laws (gun free zones) are not actually laws and they infer no penalty.

The individual who refuses to defend his rights when called by his Government, deserves to be a slave, and must be punished as an enemy of his country and friend to her foe. - Andrew Jackson