20 votes

When the Asst. Atty Gen of NC and an OAH Law Judge says your Taxing Agency is not an Agency under the State, you have a problem!

Edit: I fubared the initial post on this, and am making the necessary corrections. I am working on several different things in this movement right now, and this mess sometimes scrambles the brain; cases get mixed up with others in the mind, and before you know it, you're off in left field using one resource to add confusion to another. So forgive my ignorance on the last heading, and the way I laid this out. It was an honest mistake and I didn't mean to make an intentional misrepresentation of the case or points I was trying to convey.

The point I was trying to make is, that Private Citizens who claim local/state/federal Agencies have no jurisdiction over their lives unless they are employed by that Agency, are correct.

Here we have a case involving Rod Class vs NC Dept. of Revenue, who had claimed he could not sue them because they were public officials who had 11th Amendment sovereignty under the united States Constitution as State Employees/Agencies/Elected-Public Officials.

But the Asst. Atty General of NC said they were not Agencies/Agents under the Administrative control of the State and an OAH Law Judge upheld that opinion.

So if the NC Dept. of Revenue is not an Agency under the state, and it's Agents are not public officials/state employees, then they must be private contractors working for a private agency that is extorting taxes and enforcing internal statutes on non-gov't employees, which would be Private Citizens, or what the media likes to call "Sovereign Citizens".

If so, this is Tax Fraud and Embezzlement of State Funds by non-government officials aka public officials/officers/agents of the state.

How many "Sovereign Citizen" documentaries have we seen over the years, portraying those maniacs as a Danger to Law Enforcement Nationwide?

I mean these people claiming their Sovereignty are Delusional Idiots, right? How dare they claim local/state/federal gov't agencies have no jurisdiction over their lives?

Well, what if they are correct in their assertions?

What if a Dept. of Revenue Taxing Agency were claiming 11th Amendment Sovereignty under the State when faced with a lawsuit, but we came to find out those Agencies and it's Agents were actually private contractors that were in no way under the Administrative Authority of the State their claiming 11th Amendment Immunity under?

From what I can gather, the NC Dept. of Revenue Agents were claiming 11th Amendment Immunity under the State as public officials, but it looks like they are in fact Not an Agency or Agents Under the Administrative Control of the State after all.

They were saying "hey, you can't sue us, we're elected officials", but the Asst. Atty General says they are not, and the Administrative Law Judge upheld that opinion.

Here we have the Asst. Attorney General of North Carolina motioning and Administrative Law Judge to dismiss a case Rod has brought against the NC Dept. of Revenue, because he says that Agency or it's Agents do not fall under the Administrative Authority of the State - they do not work for the state, and are not state employees.

Basically, the State is not claiming them at all.

Rod explains this here:


The Asst. Atty General representing the NC Dept. of Revenue is telling the Administrative Law Judge that he lacks subject matter jurisdiction over Rod's action, and personal jurisdiction over the Dept. of Revenue, because they are not state agencies or agents of the state aka public officials.


The Administrative Law Judge agreed with the Asst. Atty General and upheld that assertion in his opinion; all docs for this case can be found here http://harveyw26.minus.com/

Now Rod can bring that Agency and it's Agents into court, and use the Asst. Atty General and the Administrative Law Judge as Witnesses against them.

How can they change their mind now? Are they going to perjure themselves? We can only hope so.

But those "Sovereign Citizens" who claim these agencies and their agents have no lawful authority to tax them, or enforce internal statutes on them, are delusional, and we must hunt them down like dogs and kill them all; arrest them; frame them; send them to prison, because they are a Threat to Law Enforcement Officers Nationwide.

When Private Citizens want to claim their Sovereignty, they are Bat-Sh*t Crazy Conspiracy Theorists; Delusional and Insane for believing so called gov't agencies have no authority over their lives, unless said gov't agency has employed them, which would contractually obligate them to abide by those internal statutes that ONLY apply to gov't employees/elected officials/resident/officers, etc. who are getting a paycheck and full benefits for abiding by those internal statutory codes-rules-regulations.

Are we officiating on a sliding scale Gentlemen? The State wants to exercise it's 11th Amendment Sovereignty when being sued by it's Citizens, but when that Citizen tries to use that same 11th Amendment which removed all “judicial power” in law, equity, treaties, contract law, and the right of the State to bring suit against the People, you don't recognize that Amendment, and don't want to allow it as defense in YOUR courtrooms.

Am I missing something here?

There is no government oversight of those agencies, because those agencies are private; hiring private contractors to enforce statutory codes on non-government employees. We basically have private agencies and their agents impersonating public officials.

When is an Agency not an Agency under the STATE?


Rod Class explains how using the Administrative process removes Immunity from so called Gov't Officials:


Another episode where Rod explains this:


Rod's talkshoe radio AIB show where you can listen to all the archives:


As for you Law Enforcement Agencies who insist Sovereign Citizens are a Clear and Present Danger to Law Enforcement Nationwide, you might want to double check this case and take a second look at what you've been led to believe about people claiming the state has no authority over their lives.

NOTE: All “judicial power” of the “inferior courts” comes from the Judiciary Act of 1789, as did the Attorney General position. “Judicial power” comes from Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution. The Eleventh Amendment removed all “judicial power” in law, equity, treaties, contract law, and the right of the State to bring suit against the People.

“There are no Judicial courts in America and there has not been since 1789. Judges do not enforce Statutes and Codes. Executive Administrators enforce Statutes and Codes. There have not been any Judges in America since 1789. There have just been Administrators.” (FRC v. GE 281 US 464, Keller v. PE 261 US 428 1Stat. 138-178)

Those BAR Attorney's sitting behind the bench, are not Judges; they are Administrators of the 1933 Bankruptcy.

As for the so called Gov't Agencies:

Private contractors impersonating gov't officials, are nothing more than private Citizens enforcing their will and statutes on Citizens they have zero authority to govern.

Remember: We haven't had a legitimate government body in this country since 1871 when the 41st Congress walked out sine die and the corporate take over began.

What we have in America is a foreign corporation occupying those seats of Congress, and impersonating a legitimate government body.

Source: The District of Columbia Act of 1871.


“The United States Government is a foreign corporation with respect to a state.” Volume 20: Corpus Juris Secundum, (P 1785: NY re: Merriam 36 N.E. 505 1441 S.Ct. 1973, 41 L. Ed. 287)

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CORPORATION (created on February 21, 1871 by the Forty-First Congress, Section 34, Session III, chapters 61 and 62: “An Act To Provide A Government for the District of Columbia”. This is also known as the “Act of 1871″.

This is reflected in U.S. Code, Title 28 – JUDICIARY AND JUDICIAL PROCEDURE, (Chapter 176) Section 3002 (15) (a, b, & c); which states that ~

(15) ” United States ” means – (A) a Federal corporation; (B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; (C) an instrumentality of the United States

Question for Law Enforcement and Gov't Agencies Nationwide:

When you Infringe on the Rights of Private Citizens, and the day comes that you are forced to justify your decision to do so in a court of law, what will be your answer when that Private Citizen asks this question?

"What's the One Document, either Local/State/Federal Gov't has in their possession, that would Contractually Obligate anyone (other than gov't employees/elected officials/officers who ARE receiving pay and benefits to abide by internal statutes (US Code Title 1 - Title 50)), to abide by those internal statutes-rules-codes-regulations, and to do it for free - without pay, and without benefits of their own?"

Hint: If said Private Citizen has not signed an employment contract that clearly shows they are working and receiving pay from either Local/State/Federal Gov't, then that Private Citizen is not contractually obligated to abide by your internal statutory codes that only apply to gov't agents who are receiving a nice paycheck on the 1st and 15th, and a REAL NICE benefits package that entices said gov't agent to actually abide by those statutes.

No Contract = No Jurisdiction

Do you have the contract in your possession, or are you only bluffing?

Govern Yourselves Accordingly; you are working for a foreign corporation known as the UNITED STATES or the STATE OF *** that is doing business on American soil.

Mind your manners while you are here or you may be held liable in your private-personal capacity for Infringing on the Rights of Private Citizens who do not fall within the scope of your supposed authority.

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Along with the No Records letter get copies of the following ;

Check you State's Muni- Corp. Codes for the section which states munis must follow the State's General Corp. Codes as well as the specific muni codes.

Then in the General code find the sections about Good Standing and what is required of a corp. to establish and remain in Good Standing.

These are enough to show for starters.

Later, if you want to continue to stir the pot or keep things guirella from the jump, find the sections about loss of Good Standing, Lapse and Loss of Corporate Status.

That's about the complete package. Cut and dry.

Make copies. Post on the Post Office bulletin board as Official Notice. Leave a stack at the local Library, your Church, maybe even the laundromat. Open the local coin paper box and slip copies into the papers and put them back. This works wonders in small towns. ( my favourite )

The Constitution is a Trust : http://www.The-Legacy.Info

Well finally, a South Thread w Up Votes :

It's about time.

Peeps getting a message finally ?


"I'll go one further... Have you ever taken unemployment benefits, received an FHA loan, or maybe registered your vehicle with the state? Guess what! You are a government (corporate) entity."

There is a nifty little thing called "Mistake". Government nannies love it when we plead mistake, explain our mistake, make restitution and promise never to do it again.

You may decide to offer your “applied for” status back.

While exploring the implications of Bunny's Buck Act info regarding definitions of "In This State", at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles and Franchise Tax Board, we did just that.

Our Mistake > Believing we were "In This State", which we stated we were not.

Explanation > Regarding definitions in the Franchise Tax and Motor Vehicle Codes ; "In This State" was defined by simple reference to 4 U.S.C.S. 104-113 - The "Buck Act".

Sec. 110(d). The term "State" includes any Territory or possession of the United States.

Sec. 110(e). The term "Federal area" means any lands or premises held or acquired by or for the use of the United States or any department, establishment, or agency of the United States; and any Federal area, or any part thereof, which is located within the exterior boundaries of any State, shall be deemed to be a Federal area located within such State.

We didn't live there. The household car and pickup didn't ever even go there to our knowledge. And we promised never to intentionally go there. Simple as that.

Make Restitution > We offered to return any "Benefits Received in Error" on the States Form for such.

We also applied for a "Return of Fees Paid In Error" according to their own Forms again. Wanted the registration fees back is all.

During the course of correspondence with the DMV we were informed the State could not refund the annual Registration Fees as they were Federal taxes. We had to separate the sticker tag from the plate and return the plate for a refund on the original physical plate fee. Apply to the Feds over the Tag.

Wrote back basically charging Collusion ( State with US ) Breach of Trust and Conversion of Property to Another Use". It was apparent the State DMV had misrepresented Fed. taxes as necessary State fees. A reasonable presumption would be a "State Fee" would remain within for the use and benefit the State and inhabitants, not be forwarded to the Feds. ( Probably with a little percentage held back as fee for being Federal Tax Farmers. )

They had Converted Private Property in motor conveyances, properly defined in the DMV Code as being "Vehicles of a type not required to be licensed", into items under Federal Jurisdiction and control.

Never heard another word. A few weeks later we were due to receive DMV Renewal Notices in the mail. Never happened. Checking with a friend ( working secretary for an Insurance Agency ) showed the Vehicle Identification Numbers ( VIN ) were not even in the system.

Any COP that ran the numbers because we had no Plates,Reg or License, also just left. No "have a good" day or anything. Just up and left without explanation. I would love to know what Flag or Tag or Note their little cop computers came back with that caused that behaviour.


"There is no one home in those Agencies; they are being filled by private contractors that are not under the Administrative Authority of the State."

A fun thing that doesn't cost much. Find out the Official NAME of your city or county municipal corporation. Request and pay the few bucks for a records search with your State's Sec. of State Corporations Division. Ask for a Certified Certificate ( or Letter ) of Good Standing ( "and Compliance" in some States.) This shows the muni-corp. in request complies with all regulations regarding State recognition and continued legal existence to do business. Articles on File and Annual Reports are current is usually about all they want.

( I might do this for the local Supreme Court. That should be fun )

You'll likely receive a Certified "No Responsive Records" reply. ( you paid for their Certification Service after all )

Evidence the muni-corp. has lapsed. If things are not brought up to date the corp. ceases to exist as a matter of law. No notices or dissolution papers need be provided. There may be a time limit to bring things up to date where a lapsed corp. can not reinstate due to timeliness. ( My favourite. Dissolution is required and out of the hands of bureaucrats ) There may not be a time limit. Here I expect a muni-corp. that has probably never followed the Code since securing their original Charter, could simply not comply for lack of record keeping.

This No Records letter is a great conversation starter, especially at public city and county government meetings. Q&A Sessions can be hilarious. I'm just a concerned "Citizen" pointing out a possibly overlooked civic responsibility and asking the appropriate Public Trustees to remedy the defect. Watch the mouth sputtering erupt.

Great ice breaker with your neighbours.

Just be calm and assertive. No one is likely to label you a loony. Although the Sheriff might designate you a “Paper Terrorist”.

The Constitution is a Trust : http://www.The-Legacy.Info

Yeah, you can put this one in the History Books; finally

a "South" post with more than 2 up votes. It is very frustrating to say the least, but we can not give up on these people; we need them in the fight alongside of us. Therefor, I will continue to pound this topic like a drum until the rest of the band decides to join in :)

Thanks for you post, it is being added to my things to do.

Eventually, I hope to see more people chiming in and actually defending these posts than attacking them ... LOL

Like someone commented the other day on another thread:

Larken Rose said something to the effect of:

People harm me for trying to help set them free; they get upset and fight me to retain and defend their very own slavery; they will actually harm me to keep me from setting them free.

This is the unfortunate effects of many years of brain washing by the public fool system and the media.

"I don't want my freedom and you can't make me exercise it"

Give them a lottery ticket and they fight you for two weeks trying to prove the ticket is no good. Then if you convince them to just try it, they show up at the collection window and begin to argue with the cashier who's trying to pay them their money ... LOL



please distance yourself from the "Citizens" SPLC propaganda... I don't believe this is a very good move. It's their fiction. They created it - they control it.

I second that

notion. Sovereign means supreme authority. Citizen means subject to authority. Sovereign Citizen makes no sense. This is why the ADL brands their little pet project Sovereign Citizen Movement. They know it doesn't make sense and so they seize the ignorant on all sides to control the debate.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

Agreed. I think they use it

Agreed. I think they use it to target people with mild schizophrenic tendencies by throwing lots of disjointed legal info at them. It overwhelms the senses.

Ventura 2012

I find the soveriegn citizens to be the biggest fans of

ad hominem attacks. And great fans of hassle.
I still believe in my heart that the whole thing has always been and continues to be an operation designed to skim off patriots and lock them up or completely bankrupt them.

There is no such thing

as a "sovereign citizen" - go look up the words man!

and don't just stop at the Websters' definition. Look up the words in those definitions too. The term was developed to see how many IDIOTS were out there that would start using it before knowing what it means.

...just sayin...

Now if SPLC wants to say something about "sovereigns" - then we have a problem I'm going to need to deal with in a court because then they are talking about me.

If anything the citizens of the United States are the public servants.

Let me end this controversy once and for all.

Rod Class bought the PROPAGANDA from the SPLC and is now propagating this OXY-MORON to make further fools of those who are also going to propagate it. Sorry South but I gotta call you out on this one.

Just remember people. Any document you sign you are going to be a slave to. If you do not COMPREHEND every word in every document you put a pen to, you are very likely waiving your rights in a private contract.

Look at it this way, if my autograph is a billion dollars... and I'm not allowed to have a say in any of it, the best thing I can do is cut them off from billion in funding this tyranny by NOT AUTHORIZING ANY MORE FUNDING.

Just stop autographing documents = matrix unplugged.

I would say if Rod Class is reliable and he has seen actual documents... I've also heard from others who have looked up their birth certificates... the avg "people" worth is around 500 million - 1 billion. You sign into this system of slavery every day. Think about it if they can just dictate to you why do they always need you to sign something?

You didn't end anything, but you sure added more

confusion to the topic.

How is Rod "propagating" anything? He's forced an Administrative Law Judge to confirm what the Atty. General said:

He said the Revenue Agency was not an agency of the state, and the officers representing that taxing agency were not state employees, and the Administrative Law Judge upheld that and said also the Agency was NOT an Agency under Administrative authority of the state - it does not exist under the State.

This is Tax Fraud and Embezzlement, because these people who are claiming they are public officials are nothing more than private contractors.

Are you the same guy who called into Rod's show pushing for him to follow Bill Thornton's process and procedures, and Rod didn't agree with your opinion, is that why you're attacking him?

Rest assured, Rod is on this like white on rice, and there is no one currently out there that is pushing the buttons he's pushing and forcing the decisions he's forcing.

Onto your next points:

It is not true that any document you sign makes you a slave. You signed the drivers license; you signed the social security card; you signed to open a bank account, but guess what?

Those are NOT contracts with valuable consideration, I can point you to my other thread on that if you'd like; I've covered this point ad-nauseum.

They are just "things" you did, but in now way contractually obligate you to work for free-performing some function of gov't.

They are just pre-cursors to an employment contract, but do not contractually obligate anyone to perform for free.

I got my license to drive the concrete truck; I opened a bank account so I can deposit my checks from driving the concrete truck, and I've got a work ID# to identify me as a concrete truck driver.

Now all we need to do is sit down and sign this employment contract and figure out what my pay and benefits package are going to be.

Until we get to that point and I'm actually receiving pay to abide by the concrete companies internal statutes and rules, we have absolutely nothing they could use to force me to work or comply.

When I start getting paid, I'll abide by your statutes, period!

Show me the money.

Rod Class

is propagating the "Sovereign Citizen" oxy-moron. When I got the first email a few weeks back about his "sovereign citizen" research I replied with a large piece of my mind.

Everything else in here is on the money... but then he makes himself look like an IDIOT for not realizing the difference in the two words and how they can't go together in a sentence unless you're talking about two different individuals!

It's a cooked up BAR association term. It's the same thing as "firearm" whereas people don't have the right to bear FIREarms - they only have the right to bear ARMS... they create the word firearm - you use it and so they can "grant" you the privilege to bear FIREarms... and take that away.





Its sovereign immunity, its

Its sovereign immunity, its not "sovereignty" the way you're using it. It just means its more difficult to sue individual government employees, like police officers. Not saying its fair but its not a conspiracy.

Ventura 2012

What? ....... I don't think your comment makes any sense

at all?

Did you even read the post? Did you listen to the audio recordings?

It doesn't mean it's more difficult to sue gov't employees, it means the Asst. Atty. General of NC is telling the court, they have no judicial authority to bring suit or charges against a private Citizen because of the 11th Amendment.

He's (Asst. Atty General) telling the court it has no authority over his agency or him, because his agency is not under the administrative authority of the state ...... because it's a private agency, and he's a private citizen.

I can't believe I've got spend all this time un-fu***ing all these comments in these threads.

Read and Listen and save me the time of correcting your false assertions, please.

You totally misread and

You totally misread and misinterpreted it. You don't understand the doctrine of sovereign immunity. Read it under my construction and see if you see it differently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_Unite...

Ventura 2012

I understand the doctrine, I just fubared the original post.

I've made the necessary changes to the title and the body above.

Just got a few editors scrambled on different posts I was making here and elsewhere, and made a mistake in my presentation.

Hopefully it is more effective this time around ... LOL

It still doesn't make too

It still doesn't make too much sense, because why would North Carolona, to avoid a lawsuit, claim it has sovereign immunity while still saying it is private? Seems counterproductive. If you direct link me the decision or the full complaint I'll interpret it.

Ventura 2012

Listen to the shows I provided above.

Rod brought an Administrative suit against the NC Dept. of Revenue and two agents of that agency, I believe.

Those agents said "Hey, you can't sue us, we are public officials and we have 11th Amendment sovereign immunity".

So Rod said fine! Lets take this to an Administrative Court and find out if you REALLY are public officials as you say. The Asst. Atty General who was representing the Dept. of Revenue moved the court to dismiss because he claims that agency or it's agents are not under the Administrative control of the state/court, and the Judge agreed.

So what Rod did, was forced the Asst. Atty General and an OAH Law Judge to disown the agency and it's agents, since they are not agencies under the state, but instead private.

They had to feed one of their own to the wolf to protect the state.

Basically they ate their own to save the greater cause of the state. He put them in a position that was going to make the corporate state responsible and liable, so instead of allowing him to move further in their direction of implicating the state in corporate fraudulent actors who are not public officials, they hung one of their own out to dry and fed the Dept. of Revenue to the Wolves, and wrote a convoluted decision that would hopefully confuse anyone reading it.

Basically the State knew Rod had them in a bind, and they had to cut the anchor with the Dept. of Revenue to protect the State/Corp and it's corporate officers.

Hope that helps. The case is in the links above if you want to go back through it, and I'd listen to the shows too, that will clear up any confusion.

He's forcing them to make decisions on paper that prove we have no legitimate gov't body; it's a corporation known as the UNITED STATES and THE STATE OF ***, which I outlined above.

We all know it's not a legitimate Gov't body, but Rod is forcing them to put it on paper, which is something others haven't been able to do up to this point.

I won't because I don't have

I won't because I don't have time but I could read the response an opinions in a minute. Always good to hear both sides.

Ventura 2012

I won't because I don't have

I won't because I don't have time but I could read the response an opinions in a minute. Always good to hear both sides.

Ventura 2012

Please brother.

I know you're using the capital "C" but I just don't like putting "sovereign" and the word [C]citizen... together. I am a man... nothing more and nothing less. I will defend my neighbors. That's all I can do if/when the time comes.

I know it's the world's greatest oxymoron, but it's their word

; they come up with the term and are using it as a mockery against anyone who believes the gov't had no authority over their lives.

Kind of like "Conspiracy Theorists"

Those "Sovereign Citizens" are Bad-Bad-Bad people who want their freedom from tyranny and taxation, and property theft, and ...

Lets pump it right back at them if that's the term they insist on using to label the rest of us.

Please don't put me

in with any citizens or even Citizens for that matter. I'm not a member of any democracy. We have a republic... if we can keep it.

Perfect example of why I ride the fence

Two men who seem to understand this maze of legal skullduggery who can't agree on simple, basic terms. Well, they agree, but they still fight over them. Then we get into citizens and Citizens, and I glaze over.
I have rights, I understand what they are and I do my best to use them and not abuse them. That keeps me pretty well out of trouble, at least for now. My rights do not come from government or papers, I was born with them. Every moment that I breathe without a government agent telling me to is a moment that I self govern. All these things make me feel the most basic truth lies in people accepting their full sovereignty, and they ARE "supreme ruler" of their life. But everyone who wants to cast off the tyrants says the way to do that is to go get in their face and start a legal battle that even the "experts" can't agree on how to wage.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Mr. Class is acting as a Private Attorney General

under provisions of an 1866 Federal Act and is acting on behalf of all People and political subdivisions “similarly situated” and affected by the charges in his Judicial Review.
He's not part of the State Government at all, except in the Tim Turner world of glorious if not delusional victories

"We're saved! Tim Turner is President!"

I think that remains the hardest I have ever laughed at a thread title.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

And Tina Turner has given up

And Tina Turner has given up her US citizenship. :)

That is an unfair charactarization.

Rod Class never had any more involvement with RAP or Tim Turner other than at one point covering it on his Radio Show for a short period of time YEARS ago. You're making quite the stretch there... stretch.

How long have you been on this trail?

You need to understand that some of us gave Tim the benefit of the doubt, spent some time and effort looking into his stuff, and... once burnt, twice shy.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.