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Two more Smart Meter Opponents Arrested

Two vocal opponents of Naperville’s initiative to install wireless electric meters on homes were arrested after interfering with the installation process, according to city officials.

Police are accompanying crews this week as they install smart meters at homes that previously sent away installers.

“The previous installation attempts were met with some resistance and we wanted to ensure our employees’ safety,” City Manager Doug Krieger said.


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What drives me CRAZY is

friends who supported Mitt Romney who rail that AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!!! (To President Obama's true colors.)


When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

I remember posting something

I remember posting something on this almost a year ago... only to be shot down by the so called normal people on the site. Here we are again.

When we are right, we have to stick to our guns.

The mistake you made is to think there were normal people on DP. ;-)

Jerry Day

The thing is, it is hard to be awake about everything.

I also wouldn't be surprised if some here weren't working for Agenda 21.

Spare no expense!

Spread the truth, even if no one wants to pay attention. Bring facts.

Free includes debt-free!

Wow, the misinformation and fearmongering

on this thread is so thick, you could cut it with a knife.

These are monitors of electrical power usage. That's all. They measure exactly what a private company is selling to their customer and can graphically weight that purchase against time (loaded level of the local grid).

These meters CANNOT ever ever ever turn off your devices unless you purchase a device which is fully compliant with their communication system AND you sign a contract saying they'll give you a discount "on your dryer load for signing up".

These communicate (99% of the time) via standard radio technology such as WiFi, Zigbee or a few other. This transmission is less powerful than the average cell phone or wireless phone looking for a signal.

The data collected is only valuable if it is accumulated over long periods to track trends and in no way can be used to tell what channel the resident is watching (OMG, LOL!) Why would anyone care about power trends aside from those whose very business relies on matching their output to your input exactly and across every second of the year? If you want to know if someone is home, it's much faster to watch them.

Why the new push for them? Because forecasting power needs is becoming a multi-billion dollar industry. Being able to predict the power needed at a given second tomorrow by 1% more accuracy is saving up to 3% on fuel costs. Add in wind/solar and other renewable variability and that cost margin rises into double digits. Why worry that they are monitoring your TOTAL power usage when you've already given them full, time-stamped logs of all your INDIVIDUAL money transfer?

your propaganda isn't working

Who are you really?

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

Didn't you once quote

"ages in which the dominant weapon is expensive or difficult to make will tend to be ages of despotism, whereas when the dominant weapon is cheap and simple, the common people have a chance"

Well, I'm trying to keep technology in the hands of the people, not keep those people enslaved to big entrenched energy companies. How is that so hard to understand? Oh, wait. Maybe it's just because you have less than a year on this site.

Liberty and the free market are sometimes rather complicated issue to understand unless you do the hard research. I suggest you put forth more effort.

Have you studied the health risks?



iow, yes. They're not even as harmful as a cell phone. And if "power-line" technology is used to transmit, there's zero EMI. Funny though, that even on power-line systems, fearmongering continues about health risks. lol

I understand all about the

I understand all about the tech, the efficiencies, etc.

These are monitors of electrical power usage. That's all.

If these new smart meters were no different than the previous meters, then there should be no problem. The customers should be able to continue using standard meters for counting power usage. It should be their choice.

We live in the land of the free. We are supposed to be free people. The government should not be using force (the police going on site IS a use of force) to give the people no choice but to have the meters which they do not want installed on their property.

The way this should be handled is that the people have a choice. If they choose smart meters then they receive the associated benefits. If they choose the old standard meters then they might have to pay a little more because they cause higher expenses for the delivery of their energy. If one power company refuses to allow the use of non-smart meters then the people should be able to choose a different power company that does allow them. If no power company exists which permit standard meters, then the people can choose to create their own company which does.

But in no case should the government send in people with guns to force free people in a free nation to do something which they do not want to do.


Yes, this is a free market

and what you're missing is who's "choice" it is to do what. Yes, the people have the right to choose which company provides them with power but in the absence of having guaranteed themselves two competing choices, it is not the power company's mandate to provide their customer with service in every manner that the customer chooses. If the customer's don't like it, then THEY should produce a competing company.

Saying that UtilCo HAS to provide an old tech dumb meter and a meter reader is like saying that your local veterinarian must accept money visa. It's their choice, not yours. The fact that you've allowed them a monopoly is not relevant.

So, people here are bitching because two women got arrested stopping a legit company from accessing and upgrading THEIR OWN EQUIPMENT which they had access to by signed contract. Where's the free market stand on this?

Government created a monopoly and protected it from competitors.

The Michigan Public Service Commission fixed utility prices and insured that cartel members were not cheating on each other. This system maximizes profits for all cartel members and punishes any that would dare use their profits to benefit their customers.

Federal subsidies for Nuclear power delivers a dime's worth of electrical power that costs taxpayers more than quarter to produce, transmit, manage and cleanup. We have no idea what the cleanup will cost.

Government created this tyranny. The government made it illegal for the these innocent ladies to select an alternative. Nuclear subsidies queered the market, making development and manufacture of alternatives economically unfeasible.

The ladies were arrested because government interfered with the free market and thwarted the development of any competitors. The real crime was empowered and enforced by legislative action. By interfering with market options, government enslaved utility users to their cronies.

Legislators are the ones that should be jailed and tried for violating the public trust.

Free includes debt-free!

Agreed on all but one thing.

The ladies were arrested because they broke the terms of a contract they signed. Right or wrong, they signed it.

On the rest, you're absolutely correct that the government has created this mess of monopolies in every industry. You outline the energy one but they exist everywhere. In this case, however, we do have a chance to overcome their monopoly. We CAN provide our own power on our own site. This WILL come in time. What I'm proposing is that by taking charge of the network (aka the grid in this case), we can usher that in much faster than it will organically.

Who currently controls the internet? How about all the newest technology like 3D printers, Arduino/Raspberry Pi hacking, unlocking cell phones and more? It's the people. What people are arguing for in this thread is like wishing that IBM would continue offering us dumb-terminal access to IBM controlled mainframes. What I'm advocating is that we foster Jobs and Gates in their effort to bring PCs (and all the benefits we've seen from them) to every person out there.

What you are peddling are false notions of customer benefit.

Failing that it becomes a collective good. If only the Luddites get out of the way.

The customers will not benefit and are left with having a warm fuzzy feeling of the collective efficiencies imagined.

These ladies knew the were being swindled. Their contract did no include anything more that reading the usage monthly. The Utility breached their contract.

Free includes debt-free!

Collective? Are you kidding me?

I agree that there is a chance of losing some privacy, (hopefully not but there are lots of sheep out there) but this is about keeping the option open to use the free market. You're so far off base.

Right now, you are forced by law (if in a town) and by economics to connect to a government sponsored, monopoly owned grid. Talk about communism or at least fascist! I don't know how I could be more clear. You have been duped.

This is the only way to allow those who want off the monthly extortion payment to get off. Do you really think that your power company will ever let you take their profit if they control the system? No. The only way is if we get to at least sell our goods in their market. After that, it will become cheaper and cheaper for people to make their own power and the people will gain the upper hand.

Even your signature promotes debt freedom. In regards to energy, that means buying a piece of equipment that makes your power, paying it off and then benefiting from it for many years to follow. ...or do you advocate debt-free as meaning only interest payments?

Promising the Dream.

Programmers call it Vaporware. Just think of how great it will be when it's done.

If this were an option then the Utility would allow me to run the dumb meter backwards.

Who would buy the power, and why?

Is it a monopsony, a monopoly single buyer.

Who sets the prices I can charge, the monopsony? The Public Service Commission?

The infrastructure; legal, political and technical is missing or in opposition to such dreamy thinking.

Free includes debt-free!

You're missing the chain of events

I appreciate the interest you've taken. For some reason, this topic (while actually really important) gets too easily dismissed. It's actually the one issue that led me to monetary policy and RP/DP. I've been on this trail now for more than a decade and I can tell you that it's one of the more complicated ones out there.

The Chain - Step 1: We have to get the ability to do time-of-use rates first. That makes both sides value power based on when it's produced and used. This can only happen with smart meters.

Step 2: Once that's in place, the smart people in the crowd will recognize that power from their neighbor is better in every way if available. As this knowledge grows, people will call for equitable rates for net metering.

Note: Fair metering price is when it costs 50 cents/kWh to generate that's charged and when it costs NEGATIVE 3 cents/kWh (i.e. nuclear is overproducing) THAT's also charged.

This is the stage that things get interesting. If you, as my neighbor, see me put up a solar electric system and find out that I'm sending excess to the grid all day, buying some back at night and then find out that I now get paid $140/month instead of paying that much, what would that make you want to do? Even if you had to pay $10k for such a system, it's paid off in 3 years.

As far as how the proposal works, it's pretty well explained here: https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/the-living-s...

Basically, the utility collects data on whom is generating, transmitting, distributing and consuming what power and compares it to their capacities on file. This collection is very easy to do as is the algorithm to publish a real time price per substation. Then each player can link to that price and act accordingly. The aggregate of all these predictive actions will quickly settle the grid to a higher level of stability than could ever be possible without it. And because load forecast quality is where the edge lies, people will pay more and more to accurately correlate things like weather as well. All of this leads to one place. Grid stability leads to less waste and less cost.

As you'll see in the article, this can be done in parallel on a local scale to test things out first. Once that shows better forecasting accuracy, a simulated price can be assigned. Eventually, people can see that overall, their price has been about double what the new system would set it at.

-1 Did you not read or watch


Did you not read or watch the video? There is plenty of fear mongering, but this is not it.

Was there a point to your question

or were you just inquiring as to whether I had watched it?

You obviously haven't done any serious research because you downvoted a 100% factual comment.

What was irrelevant in what I wrote?

I've watched too many of these videos to care about anymore. I was actually a member of a small team that created the first smart meter proposal in Ontario. It wasn't accepted on cost but the concept was identical. ...TO SAVE FUEL AND MONEY FOR THE CUSTOMER AND COMPANY IN A TIME WHEN PRICES AND FUEL WERE GETTING SCARCE. This was around 1997 or so. Please don't try to argue that the meters are harmful or that they somehow belong to the customer. Most utilities absorbed the entire cost (up to $400/meter) via financing to be paid back from long term savings.

Now that I've read this I know who you are

You work for the bloody UN!!! It was the UN who pushed development for and investment into the smart meter. And they are the ones who are getting the information generated on the smart meters. Wow, are you a rube. The UN wanted a way to know how much energy the 'rich' countries are using because they say energy usage is 'unequitable'. But they need hard data to 'prove it' ergo we get smart smart meters while 3rd worlders get cow patties. And once all the info is in their hands they direct energy-rich nations to cut supply to a more equitable standard.
Wow, I can't believe an agent of the NWO actually admits who they are on the DP. But I give you credit for having the cohones to do it.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

Ha Ha

That's side-splitting hilarious. I'm the UN's worst nightmare. Literally.

Yes, the UN pushed for this but not the way that I am. They want it so they can control and monitor it. They're losing that in both markets that have broached the issue of control, big-time. They want to monitor it because their plan is to use that data with the Cap-n-Trade fiasco.

I'm promoting that we control it at every turn. By changing the power market into an internet style free market, we can transact power amongst our neighbors without the power company being involved. As such, I'm convinced (along with many others) that this will lead to the near demise of the monopolistic power utility company. Just like how ice house monopolies fought in-home refrigerators until they went out of business, they are now fighting to stop all inter-networking regarding power. They are even over-hyping the two renewables that DON'T work well enough to get people off-grid, e.g. PV and Wind. Their worst foe is a neighborhood that produces all their power by bartering the excesses among themselves. That would remove their power (no pun) and leave them with only Cap-n-Trade. But with clean renewables doing that job, that's gone too.

Your post would be

Your post would be interesting if cities and counties had real market competition in the public electricity market. I do agree that their is a good amount of fear mongering but a good amount of fear mongering is healthy because it puts pressure on these companies and brings to light certain privacy issues whether short term or long term. The long term effects are far more interesting to me because of the further expansion of smart meter technology and of the further along electronics will be with complying with them and having software that works with these monolithic power-web grids. This type of technology can be used for both good and evil but when it is used in a "market", that has a monopoly on public electricity you will see it used more for evil (control) more so than good... Now I'm talking about the possible long-term effects if we are not responsible individuals and consumers. It is important to bring up these issues now because they will have an effect on the outcome of things to come. A healthy dose of fear prepares us and makes us seek out knowledge... and that knowledge that we obtain replaces that fear and gives us more individual power so we can make better decisions for our future. Don't fear the fear... Embrace it and turn it in to knowledge.

- Brennan

Is it the meter's fault that your electricity is a monopoly?


Fix that problem separately. This is nothing but a new application of a long existing technology (radio).

Do you go about complaining that all your co-workers carry smart phones with them? According to your long term fears, you should because those are transmitting the same type of radio signals (often at much higher levels too) that these meters are.

What you're still missing is that these devices have no power that you don't explicitly give them. They can collect TOTAL power used by the second. And yes, that means they can create a historical graph of such. They have no control (except for a specific few installations that went south quickly because of concerns like yours) unless you sign it away AND install the equipment that can be controlled by them. PERIOD.

In short, every concern you have over them should be 100 times worse over smart phones. You did know that NSA can turn on any cell phone's mic and listen to all surrounding conversations without even showing any indication in the display, didn't you?

Now for the why. Why we should embrace smart meters. Did you know that our electrical grid is 70% OVERSIZED on average because they can't take the chance that people will suddenly all use their high power appliances at once. Think of that. We are paying for 3 1/3 times as much in the transport area of our electricity to waste land (eminent domain) and resources and dollars just because they can't effectively predict usage very well.

Now expand that to generation. Given that big generators take 1-12 hours to warm up and produce power, as much as 5-15% of our power on a given day is wasted just being READY to make a huge amount of power on a moment's notice. This is called 'spinning reserve' and on average, it costs over a dollar/kWh. Compare that to standard rates of 11-20 cents/kWh. Wouldn't you want to not be charged that price? If they passed it on to us according to who used it, wouldn't you be the one to say, "I'm not going to run the dryer for $4 right now but I'll run it after 7pm when it costs $0.40 instead."

There literally are NO good reasons to be against these.

The government mandates this inefficient system.

Now the right is claimed to invade an individual's privacy in the name of efficiency of the collective.

It is hard to see how a so-called smart grid will improve the efficiency of the system. Central control of a complex system tends to produce sub-optimal results.

Smart meters cannot produce an energy nirvana for consumers.

Free includes debt-free!

The government has nothing (much) to do with this

Most utilities around the country are private. In the case of the women in OP, the city took on that role.

It is often argued in energy circles that distribution is a natural monopoly. This is similar to the land line phone system and the cable TV system. It's the nature of the beast in the absence of a way for multiple providers of wires to your home.

That aside, they actually do you a service by putting the meter on your property. Originally, they wanted the meter on the pole but people complained that they didn't want to pay for a disconnect (safety) switch. The result, right or wrong, was to make both services in the same box cheaper. So, since the meter is the utility's property, they have the right to service it as needed. Some contracts offer the resident a 24 hour notice.

To make efficient power available to all customers (residential and commercial), the power company must regulate power factor. This is a matching of the load's inductance and capacitance to the provided power's needs. With this off somewhat, it's very possible to lower the efficiency of certain equipment by 20-70%. That's massive. The best ideal for them is to monitor this on as broad a scale and as close to the end user as possible.

With today's computers, it is easy to track total load of each substation and transformer as well as the power factor issue. This is not a case of sub-optimal results but orders of magnitude better results.

I helped design the city of Baltimore's electrical monitoring system. They only had 1960's monitoring equipment (pulse communication - UGH) but even so, their system is by far the most responsive in the country to power outages. They regularly send out technician to within one block of the problem and get it fixed within half an hour. That's unheard of in the rest of the country.

By adding power factor monitoring, they can not only fix things after the fact, they can predict many of them that would be caused by unmatched overloads. They can even switch in or out capacitance and inductance at the sub-station to fix the overload before it causes an outage.

In addition to that, read my other posts and the link I included. There's as much as 60% energy to be saved and as much as 90% cost to be saved. All this AND gaining private control over our power control.

Short answer? Yes, this is massively more efficient.

I call BS.

Detroit Edison and Consumers Power in Michigan are both members of the public Service Commission. This price fixing Commission makes sure the neither member cheats the cartel by benefiting the customer.

Free includes debt-free!

They're still technically private

Just because the people have allowed a government commission to fix the price for them, doesn't mean you can't out-compete them.

Question: What's the ultimate free market competition?

Answer: Doing something all on your own.

With the commission you reference, there's NO WAY YOU WILL COMPETE with them on price by making your own power. With smart meters installed, the inevitable end is that they will have live-real time meter reading bi-directionally. As soon as that happens, your power becomes worth MORE than buying it from them. Think about that for a bit.

Smart meters are not simply for remote reading.

The guy installing ours assured us that it was just so that the readers could just drive by and get the numbers without coming on the property- like the water readers.

But he told a lie. The electric reader I asked later said that the meter would be able to keep track of the electricity usage in real time and could be accessed online through our account. This would necessarily create a log of your usage and make it easy for software to pinpoint households that exceed "normal" usage. No one will drive by. All the data is transferred automatically. Constantly. Thus the concerns about frequency contamination.


From what I understand, these meters will make it possible for the utility company to charge rates based on the hours that you use electricity. (Peak hours might cost more.) The meters are equipped to work with other electronic systems that will be able to command the appliances in your home to work only during certain hours. Example: your clothes dryer would not work during peak hours. You could set up these guidelines remotely through a computer.

Your imagination of the misuse of this power is probably slightly less keen than that of many criminals and power thugs...

Sure. The electric company should be able to use whatever technology it likes and the market should determine the outcome. However, there is NO MARKET. The electric companies have a monopoly on the electricity. Your only option is to do without public electricity entirely. In a society that truly depends on electricity, is this just?

Seems to me

that the electric company is well within their rights. Along with your electric service comes permission for the electric company to enter your property to read, maintain and service their equipment, the electric meter.
These electric customers are also given an alternative option. Granted they would have to pay more to have their meter read in person but sending out a person to read the meter costs money. I see nothing wrong with charging for this service.
These electric customers are concerned with safety and privacy. Would you not be more safe and private with a smart meter where a meter reader would not be entering your property monthly? A smart meter would keep strangers out of your yard.
Customers can opt for a smart meter, a meter read in person for a fee or no meter or service. I don't see the problem.

Yes you can opt-out but at a cost

Yes you can opt out of the smart meter program but if you move into a house that already has a smart meter installed they will charge a $150+/- ''fee''. Why should I have to suffer the costs to protect my privacy against a company that has a monopoly on public electricity in my city? The company should cover the costs for new tenants who don't want it... But here's the deal...they have NO competition so they have no incentive to take on such costs and therefore rollback their payroll. It's just like government... Once they have absolute control they absolutely will grow and garner more power and control and will inevitably never have to answer to no one.

- Brennan