7 votes

Abortion issue taken to extremes in New Mexico

EDIT: This post is to ask one specific question:
"Could you agree that the government is not fit to make this decision?"
Please feel free to express your opinion ONCE, then let it go. Please. This is an attempt to find common ground, if you cannot meet me here that is OK, but this is not really the place for arguing. It is "given" that we do not all agree on this.

Since everybody has a deeply held conviction regarding abortion, myself included, I have spent years seeking the "common ground" on this issue. I think I found it, but most with "deeply help convictions" feel that a step toward my proposed common ground is compromising on their convictions. Please understand, I see a possible future where abortions are routine, used for birth control, get them done "while you wait" and it fills me with dread. I do NOT want to see that. But, I LIVED in a world where abortions were illegal, and I had friends who as teenagers got butchered by coat-hanger abortions, and I don't want to go back to that, either. The only real answer - in my opinion - is to leave this between each woman and her creator. Fathers need to select their mates carefully, do not have casual sex with women who feel abortions are OK. But don't ask the government to give you a right that biology simply denies you. A woman can abort a fetus, and never tell anyone. Laws will not change that, so why are we trying to make laws to do God's job? The only REAL solution is to get the government OUT of this discussion. Why is this imperative? Because if you leave the government in charge of matters this important, they will do ignorant things like this:
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/01/24/1490691/new-mexic...

So, express your convictions if you feel the need, but tell me, please... Could you agree that the government is not fit to make this decision?



Trending on the Web

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

"death for profit" - exactly.

BECAUSE the government got involved.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

Do you advocate NO Government?

The declaration of independence declares all are created equal and have the Creator Given right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and that governments are instituted by the concent of the people to secure those rights.

If you do not protect the right of the unborn you will not be able to protect any life. The government is supposed to protect rights. No one individual's right is any more important than any other individuals right. So, tell me, how is it that the unborn may be murdered? Is it because a woman has a right that is elevated above a child?

Ron Paul: "Unless we understand…we must protect life, we cannot protect liberty."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAsLPrnJGc&feature=player_em...

Spoken by the Champion of Liberty. I hope we can hear him. Abortion is about money. Not about rights.

Dr. Paul introduced Sanctity of Life Acts in 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.1096:
a) Finding- The Congress finds that present day scientific evidence indicates a significant likelihood that actual human life exists from conception.
(b) Declaration- Upon the basis of this finding, and in the exercise of the powers of the Congress--
(1) the Congress declares that--
(A) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and
(B) the term `person' shall include all human life as defined in subparagraph (A); and
(2) the Congress recognizes that each State has the authority to protect lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that State.
----------------
Dr. Paul wanted the States to do their job. The job? Protecting Life as declared in the Declaration of Independence.

...

I advocate reality

You cannot protect the unborn. Neither can the government.
I am done, I don't want to argue with you. I presented my facts, asked a simple question that you keep beating around rather than answer.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

I don't want to argue with you either, I thought we were having

an honest open discussion.

I advocate a government as set forth in the declaration of independence that receives is power for governing from the concent of the people whose purpose is to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That is the reality on which the states sought independence from England.

However, I do not believe that a consolidated government was the intent of all of the people. The states were confederated...a loose knit group. However, I am not qualified to speak as to what that looked like because I have not studied the Articles of Confederation. However again, we do not have a confederation. We have a Constitution by which a consolidated government was created. The purpose of government according to the Declaration of Independence is to secure or protect the rights of the people.

Roe v Wade was built on a lie. The lie was that a lady who was pregnant wanted to lie to say she was raped to qualify for an abortion. Instead of people helping her out of her tough spot, instead of people being generous and helping her, she was rejected by those who could help and used by those who wanted her help and now 50 million unborn children have been murdered in 40 years.

Speaking in reality, how are you going to get the government out of anything? It is in to everything. They probably recorded my phone call to my husband a few minutes ago. For all I know my key strokes are being logged at this very moment. In reality, how are we going to get the government out of our lives? I am asking you. You want the government out of abortion. The government got involved in abortion because people who wanted abortions sought government legislation instead of working within their own states.

This is the 40th anniversary of Roe v Wade. IMO we should be weeping over 50 Million dead children and thier innocent blood that drenches our soil.

I take you to be somewhat a spiritual person. You believe in Jubilee. You believe in Creator. Creator heard the blood of Able crying out to him from the soil after his own brother murdered him. To me it is a no brainer that we are loosing liberty in this land. We have forfeited the liberty of the unborn and now ours is being taken day by day. They are after the guns now. I think there is a correlation between reaping and sowing.

I am happy to hear your thoughts. As far as I can tell, that is a good way to understand one another. I am not your enemy whether I agree with you or not. I feel commpelled to speak up for the unborn.

...

Cyril's picture

Look what women did to this woman

"Look what women did to this woman"

Indeed... "Better late than never."

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Can you tell me what you

Can you tell me what you mean. I am stuck trying to figure it out. Thanks! :)

Cyril's picture

Late realization

Well, just meant that she realized eventually. About her past blindness.

I can't quite imagine her shock, but I suppose that must have fallen quite harsh on her.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

She endorsed Ron Paul!

Yes, very sad what happened to her. But the story didn't end in a sad way! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_McCorvey

"McCorvey's second book, Won by Love, was published in 1998. She explained her change on the stance of abortion with the following comments:

"I was sitting in O.R.'s offices when I noticed a fetal development poster. The progression was so obvious, the eyes were so sweet. It hurt my heart, just looking at them. I ran outside and finally, it dawned on me. 'Norma', I said to myself, 'They're right'. I had worked with pregnant women for years. I had been through three pregnancies and deliveries myself. I should have known. Yet something in that poster made me lose my breath. I kept seeing the picture of that tiny, 10-week-old embryo, and I said to myself, that's a baby! It's as if blinders just fell off my eyes and I suddenly understood the truth — that's a baby!

I felt crushed under the truth of this realization. I had to face up to the awful reality. Abortion wasn't about 'products of conception'. It wasn't about 'missed periods'. It was about children being killed in their mother's wombs. All those years I was wrong. Signing that affidavit, I was wrong. Working in an abortion clinic, I was wrong. No more of this first trimester, second trimester, third trimester stuff. Abortion — at any point — was wrong. It was so clear. Painfully clear.[3]"
------------------
She even tried to get the supreme courte to rehear the case. She even endorsed Ron Paul!

"In February 2005, McCorvey petitioned the Supreme Court to overturn the 1973 decision with McCorvey v. Hill, arguing that the case should be heard once again in light of evidence that the procedure harms women, but the petition was denied.

On January 22, 2008, McCorvey endorsed Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul. McCorvey stated, "I support Ron Paul for president because we share the same goal, that of overturning Roe v. Wade. He has never wavered on the issue of being pro-life and has a voting record to prove it. He understands the importance of civil liberties for all, including the unborn."[16]"

Cyril's picture

I read that, just after you

I read that, just after you provided the link.

Thanks for pointing it out, btw. That weighs quite a lot in that many serious things just require us time to realize.

I believe you can't really change people's mentalities forcefully, unless you have a lot of power to condition them en masse.. like, you know, some governments gone wrong, or pervert, even.

Otherwise, from individual to individual, one's thinking change process is too personal. Experiences and time make us change by ourselves.

Look at how "easy" (not quite) it is to raise our own kids...

Hence, my "better late than...", etc.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

You said: "I believe you

You said: "I believe you can't really change people's mentalities forcefully, unless you have a lot of power to condition them en masse.. like, you know, some governments gone wrong, or pervert, even."

I believe that has been happening to us most of our lives. At least mine anyways. I'll be 50 this year and most of what I thought to be true has been a lie. After all, I think I read somewhere that the greatest acheivement of the last century was that people were controlled without their knowing so. Most of the people are still sitting in front of the TV and still thinking that government education is impartial.

Nice chatting with you. Hopefully our kids will have chance for liberty. Mine are 10 & 12. Nearly half grown. Boys. I hope for peace.

...

jrd3820's picture

how do we know or determine

"fake rape"?

And I absolutely will not call you a heartless person here, I am just wondering how that could be known?

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

Roe v. Wade

I never knew the history of Roe v. Wade until I started discussing abortion on the DP and had to get myself educated. Here is what I found:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_McCorvey

In 1969, at the age of 21, while working low-paying jobs and living with her father, McCorvey became pregnant a third time. She returned to Dallas, where friends advised her to assert falsely that she had been raped, as she would then be eligible to obtain a legal abortion (with the understanding that Texas's pro-life laws allowed abortion in the cases of rape and incest). Due to lack of police evidence or documentation, the scheme was not successful and McCorvey would later admit the situation was a fabrication.[7][8] She attempted to obtain an illegal abortion, but the respective clinics had been closed down by authorities.

Eventually, McCorvey was referred to attorneys Linda Coffee and Sarah Weddington.[9] The case took three years of trials to reach the United States Supreme Court. In the meantime, McCorvey had given birth to the baby in question, who was eventually adopted.[2]

McCorvey revealed herself to the press as being "Jane Roe" of the decision within days of its issuance and stated that she sought an abortion because she was unemployable and greatly depressed.[10] In the 1980s, McCorvey asserted that she had been the "pawn" of two young and ambitious lawyers (Weddington and Coffee) who were looking for a plaintiff with whom they could challenge the Texas state law prohibiting abortion.

jrd3820's picture

Thanks for the article

That is not something I had ever looked into before.

I do believe there are cases of rape though that need to be left up to the mother, her doctor, and her family.

Then we let God judge from there.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

I do not believe the death of the unborn should ever be condoned

however, it seems before Roe v. Wade abortion for rape was legal in Texas. That was a surprise to me. I think there are alot of facts covered up by both sides. I think that alot of republicans just say they are pro life to get elected.

But, if I believe a preborn baby to be a person, then how am I supposed to say, yah, sure, go ahead and kill the baby. It is a tough situation that I am thankful I have never been in. It is sade that the extreme is used to sway opinions.

Look at the discussion on guns right now. A massacre of children is being used to sway opions to control gun owndership.

It seems to be the extreme that is used to push the envelop instead of looking at the norm.

Dr. Paul advocated a hormone pill for rape victims.

He also said this:
"Unless we understand…we must protect life, we cannot protect liberty."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAsLPrnJGc&feature=player_em...

I thought this was an interesting article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_from_rape

I never read what happened to Bosnia before. Very, very sad. Unspeakable.

...

jrd3820's picture

I know...

It's a sad and horrible situation no matter how you look at it. You have given me some good articles to research this eve Bear. Thank you. I think at least a hormone pill as an option should be necessary, I am going to look into that a little more this evening.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

Thank you

It has been nice talking with you, even though the subject matter is not pleasant.

jrd3820's picture

Wth?

That's disgusting. Tampering with evidence? Yes, the government is not qualified to make these decisions. I usually avoid abortion/rape discussions not just here but most places because it never goes well.

"Forcible rape" is a ridiculous term, I shake my head every time I hear it.

I think you said it well Fishy, leave it to the woman and the creator. I do not think females are as abortion happy as some people think, and when a woman makes that choice whether or not you agree with it, it will happen if that is what she wants.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

Praying for a Miscarriage or Paying for an Abortion?

I think if one leaves it between the woman and the Creator alone, then the woman would be requesting a miscarriage by praying to the Creator.

Just sayin'

jrd3820's picture

Are you asking what I think is disgusting?

I think it is disgusting to imprison a rape victim for abortion.

I think abortion is disgusting.

I think rape is disgusting.

I think being raped, and the only way to press charges is by almost immediately after being raped going to a hospital laying half naked on a cold table in a room with bright florescent lights while random strangers walk in and out and poke at you is disgusting. I think it is disgusting to go through that and still risk be called a liar or having a panel of complete strangers determine whether your rape was "forced or legitimate" is humanity at a very low point.

I think they Right to lifers refer to fetuses as "evidence" in this article and that is disgusting.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

No, I didn't ask you that question.

I agree. It is all disgusting.

My remark was inregards to leaving the issue between a woman and the Creator alone.

Look at my comment on this thread titled Silent Scream. I think the plight of the child is the most disgusting of all. That the child is relegated to death by torture because some man forced himself on a woman or in other cases because a woman wants control over her own body after she decides to have sex. In all of the cases the child is the only one who does not have a say in their future. And some industry, some people in particular, are making millions on death and torture of the unborn. Maybe we should ask who those people are.

jrd3820's picture

Sorry, I thought you were asking something else

Ok, so we agree that when a woman simply wants control over her body after she decides to have sex.... well... that is disgusting as we have been saying.

Rape happens though. I understand rape is not the child's fault, but it is also not the women's fault.

I have never been exactly clear where I stand here, and it's not for lack of thinking about it.

Right now I am mad at men though.

Also, do you think the abortion industry is really worth millions? I do not know, I have insomnia and I'll be researching more of that this eve, but I never really imagined it was worth millions.

Also, I appreciate your ability to refrain from inflammatory remarks in this thread. This issue is one I usually avoid because of the inflammatory grand standing that can occur.

“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
― Dr. Seuss

Hi no problem at all

I try to be respectful. Afterall, you are my friends in liberty! But I do feel the need to speak for the voiceless. I mentioned the link below Silent Scream. I had never seen it before tonight. Abortion is not something I dwell on. However, that film was made in the 80's. Kinda hard to watch the "big hair" days all over again lol. At the end of the video the man discusses the money behind the industry. I haven't done any research in that area, but his words seem plausible. Yes, I do think it is in the millions. Here is a link: http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/f/Average-Cost-of-... multiply that number by the number of abortions since Roe v Wade. I have to run. I can't remember the number right now. I think it is 30M to 50M.

...

Totally

agree, jrd!