-72 votes

Obama Hasn't Killed Anyone

What's with the stuff about how many kids Obama has killed? Is he a drone pilot now?

"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names."

Obama's not a murderer, not of children or anyone else. Place the stigma and the responsibility on the individuals committing the acts, and you will see change like never before.

Insulate and pardon them by blaming the King and you will merely get a new King.

Over and out.

EDIT: This edit comes after 38 downvotes and countless comments.

To be clear:

1) This was NOT a defense of Obama, in any way shape or form.

2) When I say Obama hasn't killed anyone, or that he is not a murderer, I do NOT mean it in a legal sense. I mean it in a literal sense; i.e. he did not commit the act personally.

3) If Obama did not commit the actual act, someone else must have. I propose that the literal term "murderer" should be applied to the person who committed the act. This does NOT mean Obama should not be held LEGALLY accountable. I merely propose that labels should be attributed with care. In a literal sense, Obama is the director of murder; or solicitor; or any equivalent thereto. Again, that's LITERAL sense, NOT LEGAL sense.

4) I think this is important because otherwise, the actual act itself is effectively pardoned when the murders are viewed collectively as Obama's, and Obama's alone. This has the effect of subsidizing the act of murder, since the label "murderer" is not attributed properly to the person committing the act.

5) One more time- when I talk about who has murdered, I mean it in a literal sense! Not a legal sense!

6) One more time- I am not defending Obama for his complicity in these murders!

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Agreed

We give Obama way to much credit. Obama doesn't decide the strategy for the region. Obama doesn't pick the targets. Obama doesn't plan the strikes. Obama doesn't order or carry out the strikes.

Obama is the current scape-goat in chief that will take all the criticism. The masses have an object to be angry at, and it will distract them from doing anything about the real culprits or the system they have in place to carry out their tyranny.

Focusing on Obama is only helping him do his job.

???????

You are a major idiot for trying to rationalize titles of killers. Do you have a point. No. The individual that commands the act is as much a killer as anyone involved. Are you so retarded that this eludes your thinking process? Or are you just wasting our time with your drivel?

Are you so retarded that this

Are you so retarded that this eludes your thinking process? Or are you just wasting our time with your drivel?

It was kind of you to invite discussion of the matter.

I merely have 2 questions for you:

Do you think semantics are important?

Do you think the manner in which something might be communicated, semantically, has an impact on the manner in which that something might be considered?

???????

You are a major idiot for trying to rationalize titles of killers. Do you have a point. No. The individual that commands the act is as much a killer as anyone involved. Are you so retarded that this eludes your thinking process? Or are you just wasting our time with your drivel?

A friendly suggestion. Hire someone to murder someone...

get caught and see what charge the prosecutor applies to you.

You couldn't possibly have

You couldn't possibly have read what I actually wrote.

Otherwise you wouldn't have wasted your time writing that response.

Give me a break

Give me a break

Break granted. Go on...

Break granted.

Go on...

up vote here. You are so very

up vote here. You are so very right. Make the person pulling the trigger think about the action as well.

If my father told me to kill you and I travel through states and spent days seeking you out to finally kill you. Would you say my dad was a murderer?

Obama has ordered soldiers to become murderers is more like it.

^

Seconded

I could be wrong, but I think he is guilty under the law.

(if he were not above it, of course)

18 USC § 1111 (a): "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait, or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing; or committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery; or perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children; or perpetrated from a premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree."

I get what you're saying, that he wasn't the triggerman, but we get him here:
18 USC § 1117: "If two or more persons conspire to violate section 1111, 1114, 1116, or 1119 of this title, and one or more of such persons do any overt act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be punished by imprisonment for any term of years or for life."

So he is guilty (allegedly) of "Conspiracy to Murder", and so is the entire chain of command and the entire Terror Teusday metting group. We don't call that brand of convict murder conspirators, any more than we call anyone a possession with intent to distribut[or]. We call the latter drug dealers and the former murderers. I don't think either is a misnomer.

Please don't take my example to be support for the War on Drugs.

I think you missed the part

I think you missed the part where I said -- more than once -- that I wasn't speaking legalese.

He is sure as sunshine guilty, in legal terms. I don't argue that point.

Then if it looks like a terd and it smells like a terd,

it must be a terd, AND if you polish a terd it's still a terd. Even if understanding changes and people start calling "up" "out", and understanding changes further and "out" becomes as single-planet-minded as up is flat-earth, the point is to use a word whose meaning and implication is broadly understood. If the law doesn't matter, and the common definition doesn't matter... Man, I "get" this forum less and less the more I "get into" it, really. Way too much hostility. I didn't "miss the part", and really, we agree, I think... I'm starting to think I can't read as well as I thought I could. ...back to the books for more practice, I guess.

By that logic...

Hitler didn't kill anyone either.

Michael Nystrom's picture

I don't know whether Hitler did or not, but

If someone instructs you to kill someone, and you do, who is responsible? The one who instructed you to do so, or you - the one who actually did the deed?

That is the point that this OP is making. Unfortunately, the point is lost in the emotionalism of the mob here at the DP.

All art is only done by the individual. The individual is all you ever have, and all schools only serve to classify their members as failures. E.H.

Yes! Emotion must be taken

Yes! Emotion must be taken out of the argument to see what Jay is saying...man talk about mob mentality! new people would think that Jay just said he voted for Obama and is proud he voted for a true Patriot......

“The final forming of a person's character lies in their own hands.”

Both are responsible.

Both are responsible. Equally. Obama is a murderer.

Freedom in our lifetime! - fiol.us

Pay attention to the

Pay attention to the language; this is not legalese. He is not a murderer. He is a director of murder. The distinction is not trivial.

He is complicit and deserves his share of justice. But he is not a murderer.

the strangerr's picture

Pay attention class

That's it Jay, keep reprimanding opposing comments for their lack of understanding. Point out their poor grasp of the written word. Do not at any time reconsider your roll as a communicator.

I'm comfortable with the

I'm comfortable with the clarity of my post after the edits, which is supported by the fact that many convey a perfect understanding of my words (including some who disagree). In fact, some who initially downvoted have returned to confess that their initial responses were visceral and apart from what I've actually communicated.

On the other hand, since the edit, many -- including the one whose response yours is nested in -- continue raising strawmen to fight against. This is a matter of reading comprehension, and has nothing to do with anything I've said.

Communication is a two-way street. If anyone has questions, they are responsible for asking them. Responses absent questions are implicitly assuming an understanding of my message.

I think most people here have

I think most people here have it wrong...In no way is Jay saying Obama is innocent. To me at least he is saying that grilling Obama isn't working!! he just got re-elected, so we should turn our attention to a different way to approach this issue and that is putting the spotlight on those that play with the joystick and press the buttons that drop the bombs...call em out!

“The final forming of a person's character lies in their own hands.”

Thanks for your comment

Thanks for your comment

see you guys at -100

see you guys at -100

“Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it’s realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy.”
― Ron Paul

Charles Manson

didn't "personally" kill anyone....nor did Lt. Callie. Manson is still in prison and Callie got the firing squad.

Are you talking about Lt. William Calley,

who led the massacre at My Lai? Calley was not executed. He served only three years in prison, then was pardoned in 1974 by Tricky Dick.

Uniformed mass murderers aren't subject to the same penalties as mundanes. Drone pilots who murder people at the behest of Legal Authorities will never be held accountable BY those Legal Authorities. Murdering people may be a social no-no, but we can't let that get in the way of the Greater Good: doing whatever you're told by Authority takes precedence over normal moral considerations.

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition, http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Superstition-Larken-Ros...

What ever happened to

'NO ONE'S above the law'? Still seems like a good idea to me.

There's a rub going on for those of us who believe the 'hirer of the gunman' is as guilty as the gunman. (It's abundantly clear to us that 99% of the time it's the gunman, the hitman, the foot soldier, the low level ponzi schemers who pay the price-with their life or jail: My Lai, Abu Ghraib, Madoff, Oliver Norths,......) but never the top level command who actually condones, indeeds, promotes the crimes.

Why does the President even need the CIA, particularly Black Opts?

He doesn't. Where I come down on this argument is simple: NO ONE should be above the law. So no thumb up or down for me.

How is it even possible to decide this issue when the law is never applied to some? Maybe that's the real question to debate.

"If you want something you've never had before, you have to do something you've never done before." Debra Medina

He allows, even orders the

He allows, even orders the drone strikes.

He sits there, with his morning coffee, reading the reports of the drone attacks he ordered the night before. He sees that many children have died because of his attack orders. He takes another sip of coffee, crumbles up the report, and throws it away.

Simple Facts and Plain Arguments
A common sense take on politics and current events.

www.simplefactsplainarguments.com

+1

I've sorta noticed that people will vote based on the emotional reaction to the title and not actually read what the OP is trying to say or try to understand their thoughts. I think some assume everything written has some political motivation.

Anyway, I like it. Ultimately, to defeat this thing, people have to just stop. There is a documentary called "Sir! No Sir!" and it documents the refusal of orders by the troops in the Vietnam war, and concludes that the real reason the war ended was because they couldn't get the troops to fight. and they aren't going to stop this current bullshit as long as people will remote control their drones.

Highly recommend this documentary:
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Sir_No_Sir/70043764?locale...

Thank you for your comment,

Thank you for your comment, and for the link!

Letting the murder happen is

Letting the murder happen is worse than committing the murder. Obama will get what he has coming.