3 votes

what is "government"?

if a foundational idea for Libertarians is "minimum government", then what counts as "government"?

It seems to me that anything that can control an individual's freedom to act is a form of "government". It could be the street gangs hanging round in your neighborhood, the local mafia, or powerful corporations. Any organization, if powerful enough, becomes "government".

With that in mind, "minimum government" ought to mean something like "there should be a limit to the power/influence of any organization relative to the power/influence of the individual". (Power/influence to include anything that could be used to persuade: eg, money, weapons, media control, propaganda, etc)

.. of course, how to make this ideal work in practice is another question.

So, anyway .. is this reasonable .. or am i just being naive? (I've expressed this idea just once elsewhere where "minimum government" was promoted and got derision and an accusation of being a communist in return .. but no reasoning)

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The true role of government,

as God established it, is not what exists in the world today. God created man and was told to be fruitful and multiply (after being sent from Eden). All men are created equal, under God, from which our Rights derive - not from any man-made government. Also, man was imposed with the need to till the land (work) in order eat bread and earn a living. Because men that have no scruples or moral values abound, we now have the corrupt system that focuses on deceiving everyone - if you haven't noticed, governments put this maxim to good use: "He who would be deceived, be deceived." This is totally Jesuitical and Luciferian, but this is how corrupt governments work.

Back to the issue at hand....The foundation of any government is its laws. God established the basic laws for society which focus on how we need to treat Him and our neighbor - don't murder, steal, bear false witness, etc. Once these laws were established, He set up a government of Judges which would hear disputes (issues when there is an offended party) and issue a just resolution. The government's true role is to rout out evil from within society and to ensure that evil deeds are properly punished. Today, it is the total opposite – government propagates confusion, fraud and unjust gain! God specifically states that a judge shall not receive a gift or money since it blinds Justice. In the past, people didn't have to pay to get a fair hearing - this is one of the major issues we face today since everything is for profit; lawyers, judges, courts, etc. A king, a democracy, a republic or any other form of man-made government is not needed under the true purpose of government, BUT they are a definitive necessity in order to deceive the world into a centralized World Government - which is right around the corner, if you haven't noticed. The evil forces that govern the world have created these different systems in order to apply the Hegelian dialectic. If there is a Democracy, then Communism needs to be created as well in order to create a false bogeyman to allow the corrupt government an Excuse to become bigger by implementing more corrupt laws that threaten our God-given Rights.

The government that God established is NOT: 1) Centralized, but instead Local 2) Big (it should be very minimal, 3) Secretive, but instead transparent, 4) Focused on finding ways to make money off of people by implementing statutes (related to health care, insurance, commerce, land, etc.). The people, who accept government meddling in their health, and other areas, are the people who directly benefit and don't want to be responsible for their own well-being - Let's steal from Peter to pay Paul. People need to understand that all the man-made systems that exist today, are directed by Secret Societies – a topic that John F. Kennedy wanted people to be aware of (along with many others), which ended up costing his life. If people don’t focus on understanding how the Jesuits, Freemasonry, CIA, FBI, NSA, the Order of Malta, Knights of Columbus, Rosicrucians, Opus Dei, CFR, RIIA, Common Purpose, Moslem Brotherhood, B’nai B’rith, Skull and Bones, Scroll and Key, Rhodes Scholars and many others, AFFECT all governments around the globe, then nothing but failure can be expected when trying to find a solution. The Libertarian movement has been hijacked by Secret Societies and undercover CIA agents – if you are a part of a Secret Society, THEN YOU HAVE NO MORAL STANDING WHEN UTTERING THE WORDS “FREEDOM, TRUTH, JUSTICE,” but instead you do it to DECEIVE. People need to stay away from INSTITUTIONALIZED MOVEMENTS since they have fallen into a trap and can easily be controlled. I am sad to see the state of things in the world, and all I can do is to work hard to speak and deal truthfully with all of my fellow brothers and sisters around the world. May Jesus bless everyone who loves Truth, Mercy and Justice!!!

Law, law enforcement, and

Law, law enforcement, and courts

Ventura 2012

Da boyz got no problem wit dat.

Da boyz got no problem wit dat. We tells ya what we wants ya ta do. Dat's da LAW. If ya don't do it, we breaks ya kneecaps. Dat's da LAW ENFORCEMENT. If ya don't like da LAW, ya takes it up wit da boss. Dat's da COURTS.

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition, http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Superstition-Larken-Ros...


The difference between government and a criminal gang:

Government has flags outside its offices.

Seriously, there is one real difference: most of the people ruled by governments accept that rule as legitimate. They believe that they have a moral duty to obey its orders ("laws"), and that it is morally wrong to disobey (commit "crimes"). The sanction of the victims -- obtained via the superstition of "authority" -- is what makes a government something more than a gang of thugs.

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition, http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Superstition-Larken-Ros...

Whoever has power is government

i think responses here have completely missed the point.

There's seems to be a fascination with the state. As if constraining the State would be a solution to the problem of over powerful government.

It'd be interesting to hear a reaction to the intro of this thread, rather than the usual "the state is the problem and should be reduced" stuff.

Government is

thug dictatorships under various fake guises. Usurping individual freedom. Greed and theft at its highest form. The place criminals go to find jobs.


From my man, Murray

From my man, Murray Rothbard:


End The Fed!
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tasmlab's picture

Just wonderful

That article is superb! What a joy to read, even if one knows the material by wrote.

Here's a gem:

"Another successful device was to instill fear of any alternative systems of rule or nonrule. The present rulers, it was maintained, supply to the citizens an essential service for which they should be most grateful: protection against sporadic criminals and marauders. For the State, to preserve its own monopoly of predation, did indeed see to it that private and unsystematic crime was kept to a minimum; the State has always been jealous of its own preserve. Especially has the State been successful in recent centuries in instilling fear of other State rulers. Since the land area of the globe has been parceled out among particular States, one of the basic doctrines of the State was to identify itself with the territory it governed. Since most men tend to love their homeland, the identification of that land and its people with the State was a means of making natural patriotism work to the State's advantage. If "Ruritania" was being attacked by "Walldavia," the first task of the State and its intellectuals was to convince the people of Ruritania that the attack was really upon them and not simply upon the ruling caste. In this way, a war between rulers was converted into a war between peoples, with each people coming to the defense of its rulers in the erroneous belief that the rulers were defending them. This device of "nationalism" has only been successful, in Western civilization, in recent centuries; it was not too long ago that the mass of subjects regarded wars as irrelevant battles between various sets of nobles."

Currently consuming: Harry Browne, Free Domain Radio; JT Gatto and Holt; Wii U

Here's another perspective; a

Here's another perspective; a book Ron Paul suggested every American should read:


End The Fed!
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there is no such thing as

there is no such thing as government. no one has the right or authority to tell u what to do. people who work for government are operating under the illusion that there is this thing called government that gives them the authority to do what the are doing but in reality it is just a religion.

f___ all forms of govt.

yeh .. but my point is,

yeh .. but my point is, (which i'm being unclear about, i guess) ..

people who say they want minimum government don't accept that whoever wields greatest power *is* the government .. elected or not.

So, simply reducing the power of elected government doesn't reduce government, it shifts government to more sinister forces.

The only way to *really* reduce government is to reduce the power of *all* organizations, not just elected government.